RadioBanter - ATU capacitors?

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- - ATU capacitors? (https://www.radiobanter.com/homebrew/25259-atu-capacitors.html)

I wonder if there is any mileage to be had from adapting
the numerous junk-mail CD's as the vanes of ATU
capacitors?

1. We already have a form that is circular (no waste) and
with an accurately-positioned central hole.

2. There is a metallic film sandwiched between the plastic.

3. Is this film to thin to stand up to the RF currents that
will spread out across it when charging & discharging?

4. How would we make metallic contact to the film without
destroying the film at the point of contact?

5. Does anybody know the type of metal making up the film, i.e.,
can we solder to it?

6. Is the plastic of a suitable quality? Will it arc-through?

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:09:02 -0000, "Airy R.Bean" wrote:

| I wonder if there is any mileage to be had from adapting
| the numerous junk-mail CD's as the vanes of ATU
| capacitors?

I make mine into Christmas decorations.
Stick in pairs using double sided foam pads, on monofilament fishing line.
Dangle a lot of these strings inside a window.

--
Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk
Killfile and Anti Troll FAQs at
http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk/killfile.

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:09:02 -0000, "Airy R.Bean"
wrote:

I wonder if there is any mileage to be had from adapting
the numerous junk-mail CD's as the vanes of ATU
capacitors?

1. We already have a form that is circular (no waste) and
with an accurately-positioned central hole.

2. There is a metallic film sandwiched between the plastic.

3. Is this film to thin to stand up to the RF currents that
will spread out across it when charging & discharging?

4. How would we make metallic contact to the film without
destroying the film at the point of contact?

5. Does anybody know the type of metal making up the film, i.e.,
can we solder to it?

6. Is the plastic of a suitable quality? Will it arc-through?

A little Googling would soon show you whether the critical factor,
which you doubtless have already determined from your preliminary
calculations is the loss tangent for the CD substrate, may well render
such a use as inadvisable.
--
from
Aero Spike

Airy R.Bean wrote:

I wonder if there is any mileage to be had from adapting
the numerous junk-mail CD's as the vanes of ATU
capacitors?

So you've given up on using them to make 30 line television systems then?

Do a web search about this - plenty of info - though you claim you don't
web search.

David.

"David Edmonds" wrote in message
...
Airy R.Bean wrote:

I wonder if there is any mileage to be had from adapting
the numerous junk-mail CD's as the vanes of ATU
capacitors?

So you've given up on using them to make 30 line television systems then?

Do a web search about this - plenty of info - though you claim you don't
web search.

Superficially the idea has some merit but you would have to machine the
discs anyway (they are totally symetrical and thus the area overlapping with
the fixed vanes wouldn't change). By the time you've machined then to be
asysmetric, might as well have made metal plates and avoid all the other
problems as well.

To problems in making variable Cs, the use of a CDROMs offers little.

Etching plates on PCB and using the fibre glass for the mechanical side is
maybe a better idea.

--
Brian Reay
www.g8osn.org.uk
www.amateurradiotraining.org.uk
FP#898

Hardly - you have the cost of purchase and the inconvenience of
etching. Junk mail cd's are free issue.

"Brian Reay" wrote in message
...
Etching plates on PCB and using the fibre glass for the mechanical side is
maybe a better idea.

I wonder if there is any merit in using aluminum foil
duct tape to make a capacitor?
"Airy R.Bean" wrote in message
...
I wonder if there is any mileage to be had from adapting
the numerous junk-mail CD's as the vanes of ATU
capacitors?

1. We already have a form that is circular (no waste) and
with an accurately-positioned central hole.

2. There is a metallic film sandwiched between the plastic.

3. Is this film to thin to stand up to the RF currents that
will spread out across it when charging & discharging?

4. How would we make metallic contact to the film without
destroying the film at the point of contact?

5. Does anybody know the type of metal making up the film, i.e.,
can we solder to it?

6. Is the plastic of a suitable quality? Will it arc-through?

"Radio Man" wrote in message
news:SbyFd.20564$lG.19133@trnddc03...
I wonder if there is any merit in using aluminum foil
duct tape to make a capacitor?

I wonder what the background to you idea is?

New approaches to existing designs should offer one or more of:

Cost savings (cheaper materials, less man hours, ease of manufacture etc)
Better reliability and/or life (not the same thing by the way)
Extra functionality

For most things, the cost of materials is not a cost driver- the cost of the
material in a variable capacitor is dwarfed by the labour and machining
costs.

So, how does using duct tape help?

The CD idea falls flat as, while they may be cheap, the amount of machining
'saved' is mininmal. I suppose if you are totally strapped for cash, out of
work and with time on your hands, they may offer some advantage, but you
end up with a 'product' of inferior quality. Engineers who are driven by
such a penny pinching approach usually end up bankrupting their company as
their products are poor.

--
Brian Reay
www.g8osn.org.uk
www.amateurradiotraining.org.uk
FP#898

"Machining"? What, cutting with a pair of scissors?

There's considerably more machining involved in your
proposal to use etched PCB.

"Brian Reay" wrote in message
...
The CD idea falls flat as, while they may be cheap, the amount of
machining
'saved' is mininmal. I

The proposal to investigate the use of junk-mail CD's
seems to meet your very first criterion.

"Brian Reay" wrote in message
...
New approaches to existing designs should offer one or more of:

Cost savings (cheaper materials, less man hours, ease of manufacture etc)

"Extra Functionality! - What "Extra Functionality" do you
envisage in a variable capacitor?!!!!!

"Brian Reay" wrote in message
...

New approaches to existing designs should offer one or more of:
Extra functionality

You don't seem to have the qualities that makes
for a _REAL_ Radio Ham, OM!

There are no labour costs when you do things for yourself!

There are no machining costs in cutting up a CD with a pair of scissors.

"Brian Reay" wrote in message
...

For most things, the cost of materials is not a cost driver- the cost of
the
material in a variable capacitor is dwarfed by the labour and machining
costs.

"Airy R.Bean" wrote in message
...
I wonder if there is any mileage to be had from adapting
the numerous junk-mail CD's as the vanes of ATU
capacitors?

These would be the CDs returned with your defective, over priced, operating
system on them?

You can always tell when Gareth has lost the game and is wound up - lots of
posts sent in anger.

I love it.

Just like the TMC days.

"Brian Reay" wrote:

: Etching plates on PCB and using the fibre glass for the mechanical side is
: maybe a better idea.

hey everybody...brian has made capacitors (or is that capacitErs ?)

"Brian Reay" wrote:

: "Radio Man" wrote in message
: news:SbyFd.20564$lG.19133@trnddc03...
: I wonder if there is any merit in using aluminum foil
: duct tape to make a capacitor?

well done!

you got a BIG BITE with that one.

Nimrod wrote:
You can always tell when Gareth has lost the game and is wound up - lots of
posts sent in anger.

Yes - I thought that too - from a very 'constructive' response to one
that has a pop-shot at Brian's former employment for no reason at all
then, despite Airy's "I don't attack" claims, gets straight in there
with the 'bull****ting' line. Oh well. Obviously the Special Brew has
worn off.

He'll be along claiming malicious deleting next....;-)

David.

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 18:50:33 -0000, "Nimrod" wrote:

You can always tell when Gareth has lost the game and is wound up - lots of
posts sent in anger.

I love it.

Just like the TMC days.

The reason for the multiple posts is that it's the only way he can
top-post responses to individual points made in the previous post. I
think his record is about 10 replies to one post. And still he thinks
top-posting is the way to go.

In article , "Airy R.Bean"
writes:

I wonder if there is any mileage to be had from adapting
the numerous junk-mail CD's as the vanes of ATU
capacitors?

Good grief...now there are "Technical TROLLS" from the person
wanting amateurs to get into the vacuum valve fabrication. :-)

1. We already have a form that is circular (no waste) and
with an accurately-positioned central hole.

Goodie...now you can make a 360 degree variable capacitor
with an extemely low minimum-to-maximum capacitance
ratio.

2. There is a metallic film sandwiched between the plastic.

Not really. You can read all about it in free downloads from
the Philips people who developed the recording system.

If it were really conductive, you could measure it directly with
a simple Ohmmeter. [not exactly rocket science, old boy]

3. Is this film to thin to stand up to the RF currents that
will spread out across it when charging & discharging?

First you find out what you think is a "metallic film," then you
can conjecture all you want. Hint: What you see on plastic
is not necessarily "metal."

4. How would we make metallic contact to the film without
destroying the film at the point of contact?

Use metal-free solder? :-)

5. Does anybody know the type of metal making up the film, i.e.,
can we solder to it?

Do you have a soldering iron? Can you not use it?

Or are those FREE, no-cost-to-you CDs so valuable that you
cannot do a few-minutes-of-your-time experiment on your own?

6. Is the plastic of a suitable quality? Will it arc-through?

Do you have the smarts to use a power supply to rig up a test to
prove this for everyone? Or is everything you have tied up in the
proposed vacuum-valve production line you've talked about?

========

Those free CDs that many receive have some redeeming features:
They can be coasters for placing drinking vessels on; they can be
"frisbees" for use in playing with a dog; they can make decorative
wind chimes to hang on a porch of those who don't like the sound
of wind chimes. If Paul Bunyan were alive today he might like to
use them as Christmas tree decorations. Other than that and
their excellent use as a time-stable data storage medium,
those left-over CDs are rather useless.

It would be nice if folks in here would share ACTUAL data and
information, not propose a lot of fantasy ideas.

CD blanks are nicely circular and MIGHT make some kind of edge-
friction-drive dial but the center (or centre) hole is non-standard at
about 7/16 inch diameter (1.11 cm). Yes, a moderate machine
shop could make a shaft adapter for it...but that same machine shop
could make a much-superior edge-drive dial out of metal in only
slightly more time. That same machine shop could also turn out
capacitor plates for a variable, the shafts for same, end bearings,
etc. Several firms on both sides of the Pond have done that for
over half a century. [Jackson Brothers in the UK, James Millen
et al in the USA]

Rather than get all fired-up in pipedreaming on the keyboard, try
searching for a "dielectric capacitor" on the Internet. There are
several hobbyist sites which explain how they can be made using
thin polymer sheet plates rotating between two metal plates.
Maximum chapacity change ratio is limited to the dielectric
constant of the polymer (that's "plastic" to you non-chemical
types). Withstanding voltage can be figured from dimensions
and plate spacings using pencil and paper (crayon and cardboard
can be used but not recommended).

Presuming that "ATU" is an acronym for Automatic Tuning Unit,
how in the silly blue heck are you going to make it "automatic"
presuming someone else already solves "your" questions? The
servotuning system needs far more thinking attention than gazing
at used CDs pondering the whichness of the what about them.

Hint: There's already been some very nice hobbyist work done
in regard to ATUs with much on the servotuning system (at least
one made from scratch) plus the sensing-detection system to
get the servotuning going in the desired "automatic" direction.
Another Hint: The detection-sensing was solved in 1955 by a
"Yank" surnamed Bruene who was then working at Collins Radio.
[that's in the middle of the USA, in the state of Iowa]

An even better ATU uses a microcontroller chip plus a Bruene
Detector, and some latching relays to switch stepped inductors
and capacitors in/out in a two-element L-C network. Both L and
C step in the binary progression of 1-2-4-8-16-... sequence. That
sort of network and its micro are at the heart of at least three
commercial ATUs built and sold in the USA. It has the advantage
of tuning memory, can return to the same setting by actually
measuring the carrier's approximate operating frequency! In the
U.S. Army such an ATU in incorporated in the backpack HF
transceiver AN/PRC-104 (design by Hughes Aircraft Ground
Systems, in operational use for nearly two decades). On the
ARRL website you can find a reprint of a nice digital ATU
construction article that used to be available frree for download
but that may have been changed to members-only availability.
At the Stoner Goral Company (SGC) website is much interesting
information on their ready-built ATUs, installation and use on HF,
plus operating manuals (those were free downloads).

www.sgc.com

Founders Don Stoner and Pierre Goral (both hams but sadly,
both SK now) developed the SG-2020, a very small 20 W, full-
frequency-range-on-HF SSB transceiver, back-pack size almost
as small as the PRC-104 (also 20 W PEP).

The step-variable tuning system seems very strange to those
accustomed to big handwheel-operated variable capacitors, but
that is quite versatile in that you can use readily-available fixed
(and sealed) capacitors and toroidal inductors. Toroids are easy
enough to make, much much easier than trying to shape CDs
into a semblance of capacitor dielectric blades. Toroids can be
potted or well coated with varnish, enough to withstand outdoor
environments in snow country or the tropics. Relays are
generally expensive but Omron makes some nice relatively
inexpensive relays (including latching types for built-in memory)
for the higher withstanding voltages found with 100 W RF at
50 Ohms with up to 20:1 VSWR. All the big electronic
distributors carry Omron products.

In article ,
Len Over 21 wrote:

2. There is a metallic film sandwiched between the plastic.

Not really. You can read all about it in free downloads from
the Philips people who developed the recording system.

If it were really conductive, you could measure it directly with
a simple Ohmmeter. [not exactly rocket science, old boy]

6. Is the plastic of a suitable quality? Will it arc-through?

Do you have the smarts to use a power supply to rig up a test to
prove this for everyone? Or is everything you have tied up in the
proposed vacuum-valve production line you've talked about?

An interesting experiment can be performed by placing a CD on top of a
mug filled with water, in an ordinary kitchen microwave, and then
nuking it for about 10 seconds. The resulting "light show" is most
impressive, but also lets out one heck of a stink.

The vaccum-deposited aluminum layer burns up very quickly, and the
spin-coated lacquer on top of it is also damaged quite easily.

The result makes me quite pessimistic that the aluminumization is
robust enough to allow a CD to be used as part of a variable-plate
capacitor in a transmatch, except perhaps at QRP levels.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

Nimrod wrote:
"David Edmonds" wrote in message
...

Airy R.Bean wrote:

I wonder if there is any mileage to be had from adapting
the numerous junk-mail CD's as the vanes of ATU
capacitors?

So you've given up on using them to make 30 line television systems then?

Just like the TMC days. One daft idea after another.

I remember turning vinyl discs into flower pots, but some of us have
moved on since then.
--
;)
73 de Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI - mine's a pint.
http://turner-smith.co.uk

"Custos Custodum" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 18:50:33 -0000, "Nimrod" wrote:

You can always tell when Gareth has lost the game and is wound up - lots
of
posts sent in anger.

I love it.

Just like the TMC days.

The reason for the multiple posts is that it's the only way he can
top-post responses to individual points made in the previous post. I
think his record is about 10 replies to one post. And still he thinks
top-posting is the way to go.

Part of the problem is that people will respond to his rudeness, if you
can't ignore it kill file him. He does it to disrupt the group and he can
only do so IF WE LET HIM. If we don't let him he can't disrupt the group.
Standard behaviour management.

If we just ignore his rude posts (or the bits of his few other posts that
are rude), the problem would go away. Sometimes some of the stuff I seen
responded to recently hasn't been that bad- maybe his engineering skills are
wanting but this is a forum to ask questions. If he could just stop being so
rude and negative I'd happily try and help him learn.

Thing is, he seems to see every mention of failure as a reference to him. I
can only assume he has very low self esteem. This does make helping him a
challenge. Pity we don't have an SEN teacher in the group- they would be
ideal to advise us on the best plan. He could draw up an IEP for him.

--
Brian Reay
www.g8osn.org.uk
www.amateurradiotraining.org.uk
FP#898

"Brian Reay" wrote in message
...
"Custos Custodum" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 18:50:33 -0000, "Nimrod" wrote:

Pity we don't have an SEN teacher in the group- they would be
ideal to advise us on the best plan. He could draw up an IEP for him.

ROTFLMAO

Priceless Brian, Priceless...

Regards
tox

In (rec.radio.amateur.homebrew), tox wrote:

"Brian Reay" wrote in message
...
"Custos Custodum" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 18:50:33 -0000, "Nimrod" wrote:

Pity we don't have an SEN teacher in the group- they would be
ideal to advise us on the best plan. He could draw up an IEP for him.

ROTFLMAO

Priceless Brian, Priceless...

I think it's well past time for everyone to go to Due Process on him
-- as in "killfile" and Please Do Not Feed The Troll.

--
Slow? Geological. Tectonic plates muttering about the slowpoke, that
sort of thing.
-- Michel Buijsman, in the Monastery

Once again. Mr.Reay succeeds in scoring an own-goal.....

"Brian Reay" wrote in message
...
Part of the problem is that people will respond to his rudeness, if you
can't ignore it kill file him. He does it to disrupt the group and he can
only do so IF WE LET HIM. If we don't let him he can't disrupt the group.
Standard behaviour management.

If we just ignore his rude posts (or the bits of his few other posts that
are rude), the problem would go away. If he could just stop being so
rude and negative I'd happily try and help him learn.

I have never trolled in any NG.

"Len Over 21" wrote in message
...
In article , "Airy R.Bean"

writes:
I wonder if there is any mileage to be had from adapting
the numerous junk-mail CD's as the vanes of ATU
capacitors?
Good grief...now there are "Technical TROLLS" from the person
wanting amateurs to get into the vacuum valve fabrication. :-)

Stupid boy. Perhaps it is you who is the troll?

"Len Over 21" wrote in message
...
In article , "Airy R.Bean"

writes:
1. We already have a form that is circular (no waste) and
with an accurately-positioned central hole.
Goodie...now you can make a 360 degree variable capacitor
with an extemely low minimum-to-maximum capacitance
ratio.

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 22:13:37 -0000, "Brian Reay"
wrote:

Part of the problem is that people will respond to his rudeness, if you
can't ignore it kill file him. He does it to disrupt the group and he can
only do so IF WE LET HIM. If we don't let him he can't disrupt the group.
Standard behaviour management.

Very good points.

Having posted what appears to be on the surface a technical item
regarding the construction of capacitors for an ATU, it seems that
Bean has done no calculations whatsoever regarding the design.

Even simple back-of-the-envelope calculations would have pointed up
the the critical areas of component performance, which, together with
an appraisal of the limitations of his chosen resources, may have led
to a more realistic redesign. OTOH it may have indicated or confirmed
the correctness of his original approach. But we'll never know.

But did he respond accordingly? Instead of being an interesting
technical discussion, it has become yet another stick with which to
beat selected responders - the 'gentlemanly traditions' disappearing,
if they ever surfaced at all, very rapidly. One is left with the
strong impression that the original posting wasn't meant to be a
technical discussion at all, and another poster's comment elsewhere
about 'the cycle repeats' appears very apposite.

I note that you have already mentioned what could well be the achilles
heel of Bean's choice of components, and one which I was trying to
gently steer him to in my initial contribution. But it seems that it
is more fun to wield the stick rather than undertake any real design
studies. Ah well.
--
from
Aero Spike

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 10:55:58 -0000, "Airy R.Bean"
wrote:

I have never trolled in any NG.

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:29:46 -0000, "Airy R.Bean"
wrote:

Once again. Mr.Reay succeeds in scoring an own-goal

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 10:56:47 -0000, "Airy R.Bean"
wrote:

Stupid boy. Perhaps it is you who is the troll?

Rather active CB-boy, but I am not convinced about his real interest
to participate in a technical amateur radio newsgroup

---
J. M. Noeding, LA8AK, N-4623 Kristiansand
http://home.online.no/~la8ak/c.htm

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear, you've tried and failed miserably to
lead the field with your rather silly outbursts; you've been brought
up short, and are now sulking with silly postings like that of yours
below. Do you not think that childishly broadcast (CB) jibes such
as, "Rather active CB-boy" are at odds with your further comment
relating to "a technical amateur radio newsgroup"? Not only at
odds, but hypocritical?

Insofar as this is a technical NG, do you not think, perhaps, that the
personal attack originated by you below has all the characteristics of
trolling?

Stupid Boy!

"J M Noeding" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 10:55:58 -0000, "Airy R.Bean"
wrote:
I have never trolled in any NG.
On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:29:46 -0000, "Airy R.Bean"
wrote:
Once again. Mr.Reay succeeds in scoring an own-goal
On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 10:56:47 -0000, "Airy R.Bean"
wrote:
Stupid boy. Perhaps it is you who is the troll?
Rather active CB-boy, but I am not convinced about his real interest
to participate in a technical amateur radio newsgroup

"Spike" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 22:13:37 -0000, "Brian Reay"
wrote:

Part of the problem is that people will respond to his rudeness, if you
can't ignore it kill file him. He does it to disrupt the group and he
can
only do so IF WE LET HIM. If we don't let him he can't disrupt the group.
Standard behaviour management.

Very good points.

Having posted what appears to be on the surface a technical item
regarding the construction of capacitors for an ATU, it seems that
Bean has done no calculations whatsoever regarding the design.

Even simple back-of-the-envelope calculations would have pointed up
the the critical areas of component performance, which, together with
an appraisal of the limitations of his chosen resources, may have led
to a more realistic redesign. OTOH it may have indicated or confirmed
the correctness of his original approach. But we'll never know.

But did he respond accordingly? Instead of being an interesting
technical discussion, it has become yet another stick with which to
beat selected responders - the 'gentlemanly traditions' disappearing,
if they ever surfaced at all, very rapidly. One is left with the
strong impression that the original posting wasn't meant to be a
technical discussion at all, and another poster's comment elsewhere
about 'the cycle repeats' appears very apposite.

I note that you have already mentioned what could well be the achilles
heel of Bean's choice of components, and one which I was trying to
gently steer him to in my initial contribution. But it seems that it
is more fun to wield the stick rather than undertake any real design
studies. Ah well.

All signs of insecurity. If Gareth was sure of himself he could debate /
discuss at a technical level. I can't ever actually recall him doing this.

I'm sure there will be a name for his condition, probably even treatment.

--
Brian Reay
www.g8osn.org.uk
www.amateurradiotraining.org.uk
FP#898

Brian Reay wrote:

All signs of insecurity. If Gareth was sure of himself he could debate /
discuss at a technical level. I can't ever actually recall him doing this.

I'm sure there will be a name for his condition, probably even treatment.

Yes, it's called Antisocial Personality Disorder (APD).

Google will give you all the info.

Micky

--
E&OE (C) 2005 Micky Taker
Micky Taker accepts no responsibility for any personal injury or
emotional distress that may occur as a result of reading the contents of
this message.

Once again Mr.Reay has published something that has come home
to roost at his home. Remember the following bull**** from
yesterday?.....

"Part of the problem is that people will respond to his rudeness, if you
can't ignore it kill file him. He does it to disrupt the group and he can
only do so IF WE LET HIM. If we don't let him he can't disrupt the group.
Standard behaviour management."

"Brian Reay" wrote in message
...

All signs of insecurity. If Gareth was sure of himself he could debate /
discuss at a technical level. I can't ever actually recall him doing this.
I'm sure there will be a name for his condition, probably even treatment.

Once again, Mr.Reay is brandishing his card with
the "insecurity" sneer upon it.

That Mr.Reay feels the need to repeatedly initiate
personal remarks of an aggressive character, personal
remarks that cannot be taken as "debate / discussion at
a technical level", would seem to suggest that it is Mr.Reay
who is insecure, do you not think?

"Brian Reay" wrote in message
...

All signs of insecurity. If Gareth was sure of himself he could debate /
discuss at a technical level. I can't ever actually recall him doing this.
I'm sure there will be a name for his condition, probably even treatment.

"Brian Reay" wrote:

: Part of the problem is that people will respond to his rudeness, if you
: can't ignore it kill file him. He does it to disrupt the group and he can
: only do so IF WE LET HIM. If we don't let him he can't disrupt the group.
: Standard behaviour management.
said m3osn....

how do you spell NONSENSE anyway ?

ZZZPK wrote:
youve been reading LORD OF THE FLIES again.

Heh, heh, after presenting the play, "Annie", this year
(I was FDR) the Madison County Arts Council asked for ideas
on a play for next year that would employ a bunch of kids.
I suggested, "Lord of the Flies", which met with a very
cool reception. :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

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On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 10:31:40 -0600, Cecil Moore
wrote:
I suggested, "Lord of the Flies", which met with a very cool reception. :-)
Didn't Texas send that as a road show to D.C.?