Suggestions for VHF-AM Transmitter?
 

Quite a few weeks ago I posted looking for info on VHF-AM receivers and
received a number of pointers to additional resources and study material.
Thanks
to all who responded and, in particular, to Pete-KE9OA who has been a
tremendous help!

Since then, several protos/learning platforms have been built and I'm
pleased
with the results overall - great learning experience (which continues).

Now I'm interested in the transmit side of the equation and have been poring
over the 'net and other materials/articles trying to get a grip on this
part. So far
I have a block diagram (or "blockhead" diagram more accurately 8-) of a two
stage Mosfet widget using some VHF parts from Mitsubishi. Specifically, I'm
thinking:

20 mW LO input - RD00HVS1 Mosfet - .5W - RD06HVF1 Mosfet = ~6W
output. Modulation either transformerless (or transformer) using something
like
an audio amp (e.g. LM384) after suitable compression/limiting. Net result
that
I'm after is approximately 6W output using a 12-18VDC supply. So...........

If anyone here can point out some worthwhile texts, articles, or similar
designs
that might apply I'd be grateful.

BTW, before this sets off a string of cautionary tales and admonishments
about
newbie nitwits playing with transmitters (especially at Airband
frequencies) - I
can tell you this is a "bench only" project intended to feed a well-grounded
10W/50ohm dummy load ONLY... Are you kidding? I live in Arlington, VA -
within walking distance of some of the world's biggest paranoids. I already
worry
about the splatter created by the blender when the wife and I mix up a batch
of Margueritas! (we try not to simulate any "modulation" by hitting the
"pulse"
button 8-).........

Thanks for any help,
Bill

Still looking for some pointers and/or advice on current AM
transmitter design. There doesn't seem to be much out there
apart from the "pirates" who are building SW transmitters
around 5W or so...(e.g. the "Grenade" QRP transmitters and
similar designs)...

Is AM ("Ancient Modulation") considered dead and therefore
there are no links/publications worth reading?

Bill

Just run the output of any audio source of ~5 watts into a "modulation
transformer" and have the B+ to the transmitter pass through its
secondary...

You can also construct an audio amplifier whose output power final
"modulates" (perhaps the B+ from the audio amps final transistor/tube) the
B+ to the xmitter... etc... ssb is by nature 2X-plus more efficient... fm
supports greater sound quality...

I think detail about it is skipped simply because it is so easy to
affect....

Warmest regards,
John
--
Marbles can be used in models with excellent results! However, if forced
to keep using all of mine up... I may end up at a disadvantage... I seem
to have misplaced some!!!


"Netgeek" wrote in message
...
| Still looking for some pointers and/or advice on current AM
| transmitter design. There doesn't seem to be much out there
| apart from the "pirates" who are building SW transmitters
| around 5W or so...(e.g. the "Grenade" QRP transmitters and
| similar designs)...
|
| Is AM ("Ancient Modulation") considered dead and therefore
| there are no links/publications worth reading?
|
| Bill
|
|

So you're saying that there's no info because it's far too simple - so why
bother to write it up in a text or app note?

Surely there is some small amount of "finesse" involved - whether it be in
the implementation of the modulation transformer or in trying to get the
optimum modulation levels in general. Nobody has covered this in a text?

I'm sure I could come up with some brute-force approach in doing the
high-level modulation using a kludge transformer (the "grenade" guys
are using simple line level transformers run "backwards")...

Either there's a more "scientific" approach to this or, as you suggest,
it's always done empirically??? Just wondering......

Bill

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
Just run the output of any audio source of ~5 watts into a "modulation
transformer" and have the B+ to the transmitter pass through its
secondary...

You can also construct an audio amplifier whose output power final
"modulates" (perhaps the B+ from the audio amps final transistor/tube) the
B+ to the xmitter... etc... ssb is by nature 2X-plus more efficient...
fm
supports greater sound quality...

I think detail about it is skipped simply because it is so easy to
affect....

Warmest regards,
John

Did you google for "plate modulation" or "grid modulation"... you should
turn something up there... even if you come across info for tube equip.,
the info is still just as accurate for transistor equip....

How about a trip to a used book store in your area to see what is available?

I see your point, I didn't say that correctly...

You are right, the information should be more available--its missing may
just be a lack of interest or anyone building am equip these days...

The pirate group and "freebanders" have groups, but you have to know someone
to be allowed into their discussions... I know "hidden chat rooms" exist on
IRC... but I have never been invited...

Warmest regards,
John
--
Marbles can be used in models with excellent results! However, if forced
to keep using all of mine up... I may end up at a disadvantage... I seem
to have misplaced some already!!!


"Netgeek" wrote in message
...
| So you're saying that there's no info because it's far too simple - so why
| bother to write it up in a text or app note?
|
| Surely there is some small amount of "finesse" involved - whether it be in
| the implementation of the modulation transformer or in trying to get the
| optimum modulation levels in general. Nobody has covered this in a text?
|
| I'm sure I could come up with some brute-force approach in doing the
| high-level modulation using a kludge transformer (the "grenade" guys
| are using simple line level transformers run "backwards")...
|
| Either there's a more "scientific" approach to this or, as you suggest,
| it's always done empirically??? Just wondering......
|
| Bill
|
| "John Smith" wrote in message
| ...
| Just run the output of any audio source of ~5 watts into a "modulation
| transformer" and have the B+ to the transmitter pass through its
| secondary...
|
| You can also construct an audio amplifier whose output power final
| "modulates" (perhaps the B+ from the audio amps final transistor/tube)
the
| B+ to the xmitter... etc... ssb is by nature 2X-plus more efficient...
| fm
| supports greater sound quality...
|
| I think detail about it is skipped simply because it is so easy to
| affect....
|
| Warmest regards,
| John
|
|

"Netgeek" wrote in message
...
So you're saying that there's no info because it's far too simple - so why
bother to write it up in a text or app note?

I suspect there's just not much interest in VHF AM. At least the HF AMers
have a world to find contacts in. Contacts on VHF are pretty much local,
and the probablility of finding a fellow AMer on VHF locally are vanishingly
small.

Indeed, why would someone use AM on VHF? If you don't like the sound of
sideband, use FM. If you simply want to get the message through, use
packet. If you want to operate under adverse conditions, use CW. AM has
precious few advantages in this day and age.

If you look in old issues of the Handbook, you will find designs for VHF AM
gear. If you hang around hamfests, you might uncover a twoer or sixer that
might still be coaxed into working. But mostly you will find tube gear from
an age when FM was complex and finicky.

But today, VHF FM is ubiquitous and cheap, so any AM equipment is playing to
a tiny niche.

...

The last bastion of VHF-AM is aircraft, both civilian and military. The
civilian aircraft com band goes from 118-137 MHz. and the military from
somewhere around 225 to 400. Those of us who have spent our lives in this
little corner of the design world are few and far between.

As to those who say that AM is so simple that anybody could do it, I
respectfully disagree. I even DISrespectfully disagree. Trying to
amplitude modulate a synthesized AM radio without having as much FM in the
output as AM is no mean feat. In the old vacuum tube days with crystals for
the synthesizer it isn't all that difficult. However, with digital
synthesis and VCOs that will FM at the drop of a hat, it is far from
trivial. Shielding to the center of the earth and power supplies bypassed
from DC to daylight are the order of the day.

Jim


"Netgeek" wrote in message
...
Still looking for some pointers and/or advice on current AM
transmitter design. There doesn't seem to be much out there
apart from the "pirates" who are building SW transmitters
around 5W or so...(e.g. the "Grenade" QRP transmitters and
similar designs)...

Is AM ("Ancient Modulation") considered dead and therefore
there are no links/publications worth reading?

Bill

This page shows a modulation xfrmr from an audio amp modulating a PA final
xistor--if that is difficult it is, if not--it is not... this is only a
simple drawing--but yeah, it is pretty much like that...

Warmest regards,
John
--
If "God"--expecting an angel... if evolution--expecting an alien... just
wondering if I will be able to tell the difference!

"Netgeek" wrote in message
...
| So you're saying that there's no info because it's far too simple - so why
| bother to write it up in a text or app note?
|
| Surely there is some small amount of "finesse" involved - whether it be in
| the implementation of the modulation transformer or in trying to get the
| optimum modulation levels in general. Nobody has covered this in a text?
|
| I'm sure I could come up with some brute-force approach in doing the
| high-level modulation using a kludge transformer (the "grenade" guys
| are using simple line level transformers run "backwards")...
|
| Either there's a more "scientific" approach to this or, as you suggest,
| it's always done empirically??? Just wondering......
|
| Bill
|
| "John Smith" wrote in message
| ...
| Just run the output of any audio source of ~5 watts into a "modulation
| transformer" and have the B+ to the transmitter pass through its
| secondary...
|
| You can also construct an audio amplifier whose output power final
| "modulates" (perhaps the B+ from the audio amps final transistor/tube)
the
| B+ to the xmitter... etc... ssb is by nature 2X-plus more efficient...
| fm
| supports greater sound quality...
|
| I think detail about it is skipped simply because it is so easy to
| affect....
|
| Warmest regards,
| John
|
|

"xpyttl" wrote in message

I suspect there's just not much interest in VHF AM. At least the HF AMers
have a world to find contacts in. Contacts on VHF are pretty much local,
and the probablility of finding a fellow AMer on VHF locally are
vanishingly
small.

snip

I can certainly see your point and I agree completely - insofar as it
applies to general applications. My interest is in the aviation bands where
AM is very much alive and well (and required). There's probably about
zip-nada-squat of interest happening in amateur VHF-AM for the reasons
you mention. But there was certainly some interesting traffic on the
airband frequencies here in Washington the other day when that nitwit in
the Cessna came breezing in....!!! 8-)

Bill

"RST Engineering" wrote in message:

The last bastion of VHF-AM is aircraft, both civilian and military. The
civilian aircraft com band goes from 118-137 MHz. and the military from
somewhere around 225 to 400. Those of us who have spent our lives in this
little corner of the design world are few and far between.

This is what I'm discovering. Not only are the people involved few and
far between but so is much of the documented background material
anyone new to the scene might rely on for help....8-( I hope some of
the old-timers will scribble some of this stuff down while they're still
around!

As for the "simplicity" theory - you've hit it spot on with your following
comments. For example, roll-your-own VCOs are only a few bucks
and pretty easy. Off-the-shelf Minicircuits types (e.g. POS-200) are
only a few bucks more. But it sure is interesting to note that Minicircuits
has a new line of VCOs *specifically* for "aircraft communications"
with an asking price of nearly $50 (yipes!)... The difference - VERY
low phase noise.

Apparently there are quite a few variables in implementation of these
"simple" designs - and what you can hear out there on the band is all
over the map. The difference in perceived quality between the "good"
radios and the really "rat-s**t" radios is amazing - and that's listening to
aircraft under identical conditions (for example over the same VOR
checkpoint). Sure leads me to believe that there isn't a set "formula" for
this stuff.......8-)

Bill

As to those who say that AM is so simple that anybody could do it, I
respectfully disagree. I even DISrespectfully disagree. Trying to
amplitude modulate a synthesized AM radio without having as much FM in the
output as AM is no mean feat. In the old vacuum tube days with crystals
for
the synthesizer it isn't all that difficult. However, with digital
synthesis and VCOs that will FM at the drop of a hat, it is far from
trivial. Shielding to the center of the earth and power supplies bypassed
from DC to daylight are the order of the day.

Jim


"Netgeek" wrote in message
...
Still looking for some pointers and/or advice on current AM
transmitter design. There doesn't seem to be much out there
apart from the "pirates" who are building SW transmitters
around 5W or so...(e.g. the "Grenade" QRP transmitters and
similar designs)...

Is AM ("Ancient Modulation") considered dead and therefore
there are no links/publications worth reading?

Bill

"Netgeek" wrote in message
...

"xpyttl" wrote in message

I suspect there's just not much interest in VHF AM. At least the HF
AMers
have a world to find contacts in. Contacts on VHF are pretty much
local,
and the probablility of finding a fellow AMer on VHF locally are
vanishingly
small.

snip

I can certainly see your point and I agree completely - insofar as it
applies to general applications. My interest is in the aviation bands
where
AM is very much alive and well (and required). There's probably about
zip-nada-squat of interest happening in amateur VHF-AM for the reasons
you mention. But there was certainly some interesting traffic on the
airband frequencies here in Washington the other day when that nitwit in
the Cessna came breezing in....!!! 8-)

Bill


Got bad news for you... A homebrew an aviation band transmitter is illegal.
And also you have to be a pilot or air traffic controller to operate an
aviation band transmitter - such transmitter must also pass specified
standards to be legal for use.

A reciever is a different matter of course.
There are quite a few manufacturers that make aviation band reciever kits.

73
Roger ZR3RC

"Roger Conroy" wrote in message

Got bad news for you... A homebrew an aviation band transmitter is
illegal.

Of course it is - and well it should be!!! I'm interested in the design
problems involved. If the results showed that something new, novel
or at least in the "better bang for the buck" category could be
constructed *and* it appeared to be of some interest to others I'd
seriously consider going to the trouble of FCC, FAA, TSO, RTCA,
NMEA, STC and whatever other relevant "LMNOP" alphabet
drills may be required. But that's quite a ways off and for now this
is more of an academic exercise than anything else, mostly because
I'm stunned at how little information is actually available. It's a
challenge.

And also you have to be a pilot or air traffic controller to operate an
aviation band transmitter - such transmitter must also pass specified
standards to be legal for use.

As noted above.......

I can appreciate you advising caution - but as I previously mentioned
(in the original post) I'm well aware of the potential "problems".

A reciever is a different matter of course.
There are quite a few manufacturers that make aviation band reciever kits.

But a real shortage of truly well-executed examples - or kits that happen
to satisfy my desired set of performance/features.......8-) I've already
built a 'couple - and then shredded them one functional block at a time so
that, eventually, the result is virtually a clean-sheet design. Sure, it's a
lot
of trouble - but entertaining...........8-)

Bill

"Netgeek" wrote in message
...
This is what I'm discovering. Not only are the people involved few and
far between but so is much of the documented background material
anyone new to the scene might rely on for help....8-( I hope some of
the old-timers will scribble some of this stuff down while they're still
around!

As for the "simplicity" theory - you've hit it spot on with your following
comments. For example, roll-your-own VCOs are only a few bucks
and pretty easy. Off-the-shelf Minicircuits types (e.g. POS-200) are
only a few bucks more. But it sure is interesting to note that
Minicircuits
has a new line of VCOs *specifically* for "aircraft communications"
with an asking price of nearly $50 (yipes!)... The difference - VERY
low phase noise.

Apparently there are quite a few variables in implementation of these
"simple" designs - and what you can hear out there on the band is all
over the map. The difference in perceived quality between the "good"
radios and the really "rat-s**t" radios is amazing - and that's listening
to
aircraft under identical conditions (for example over the same VOR
checkpoint). Sure leads me to believe that there isn't a set "formula" for
this stuff.......8-)

Bill


Bill,


You won't find much of this information without buying the tech manuals on
these aviation band radios and reading about them.

You'll find that the better sounding VHF-AM transceivers do not use simple
open loop modulation as has been described ("just hook up a modulation
transformer"). That's 1970s technology. We use control loops to linearize
the transmitters and reduce distortion. That's one part of the "how do you
AM modulate a synthesizer without FM'ing even more" question - the other
part is good layout/bypassing practices as someone pointed out.

We modulate at low level (pre-driver - milliwatt levels) with either simple
mixers or complex I/Q modulators. The feedback is either envelope ALC,
polar or Cartesian.




73,
Bob
W4ATM

Still looking for some pointers and/or advice on current AM
transmitter design.

One place where VHF AM is still alive is radio foxhunting (RDF).
The comments I've seen in the group so far are filament-based,
hardly usable for a portable transmitter to be hidden under the trees.

A lot of ex-PMR equipment has a closed control loop to reduce the
RF output to what the communication plan allows for (so PMR folk
can use the same kit for customers who need 0.3 watts or customers
who need 25 watts; all that's needed is a twist of the pot inside).

This circuit makes AM easy: just inject your audio in this control
circuit and with some luck you get reasonably-quality AM.
It won't be hi-fi but superreg receivers never notice;
similary there may be some FM but again superregs never notice
(and it's a nice way to be able to verify a transmitter w/o
the need to carry AM kit!)

Oh, since AM PEP power is 4 times the AM idle power, pls reduce
the idle output power to at most 25% of the max, or things will clip.

Ex-PMR equipment in many places is dime-a-dozen and this gives one
an easy way to build a transmitter for some RDF bootstrap activity,
or during a JOTA or thereabouts.

[I have one transmitter where I can fluently adjust the power from
50mW to 10W PEP, to adjust for the distance and the difficulty
of the RDF. This means that one can make a small hunt for the
young scouts and a larger hunt, with longer distances,
for the older folk, all with the same equipment.
Just a point for inspiration].

Hope this helps,

Geert Jan PE1HZG

"Bob Lombardi" wrote in message

You won't find much of this information without buying the tech manuals on
these aviation band radios and reading about them.

I was hoping to avoid the "overt plagiarism" approach - but I guess I
could reserve the option of "covert plagiarism"??? 8-)

You'll find that the better sounding VHF-AM transceivers do not use simple
open loop modulation as has been described ("just hook up a modulation
transformer"). That's 1970s technology. We use control loops to
linearize
the transmitters and reduce distortion. That's one part of the "how do
you
AM modulate a synthesizer without FM'ing even more" question - the other
part is good layout/bypassing practices as someone pointed out.

I suppose I've been pursuing the path of open loop because that's what
most of the literature describes - mostly for reasons of efficiency I
suppose (as in the case of continuous broadcast/commercial AM) but -
now that you mention it - much of that doesn't apply here. The duty
cycle for transmissions is *really* low and short duration, and the output
levels are fairly modest (a few watts or so) - so the difference between
using some high-level modulation (e.g. transformer) on a Class C
final or doing series modulation through linear stages isn't really all
that significant. Guess I'll go re-think it... It makes sense to, as you
suggest, close the loop and govern the modulation where the "rubber
hits the road" (or airwaves).

The high-level mod scheme counts on doing a good job of
compression and limiting at the source - and then setting the final PA
to fall within a certain range. I assume that the closed-loop scheme
you suggest involves some "tastefully designed" VCAs somewhere
in that loop???

Thanks for the input! Lots to think about........

We modulate at low level (pre-driver - milliwatt levels) with either
simple
mixers or complex I/Q modulators. The feedback is either envelope ALC,
polar or Cartesian.

"Simple stuff", right??????????? 8-) Just kidding -

Thanks again,

Bill

"Geert Jan de Groot" wrote in message

One place where VHF AM is still alive is radio foxhunting (RDF).
The comments I've seen in the group so far are filament-based,
hardly usable for a portable transmitter to be hidden under the trees.

A lot of ex-PMR equipment has a closed control loop to reduce the
RF output to what the communication plan allows for (so PMR folk
can use the same kit for customers who need 0.3 watts or customers
who need 25 watts; all that's needed is a twist of the pot inside).

snip

Hope this helps,
Geert Jan PE1HZG

Thanks Geert - Yes, it does help because it's another strategy to
consider. Your input is appreciated!

Regards,
Bill

Got bad news for you... A homebrew an aviation band transmitter is
illegal.

Bull$#!t.


And also you have to be a pilot or air traffic controller to operate an
aviation band transmitter

Bull$#!t.


- such transmitter must also pass specified
standards to be legal for use.

True.



A reciever is a different matter of course.
There are quite a few manufacturers that make aviation band reciever kits.

Learn to spell receiver.

Jim

Yes, well, why this is sure handy for manufacturers--it is not good for me
and the one I am building for my ultralight... grin

Warmest regards,
John

"RST Engineering" wrote in message
...


Got bad news for you... A homebrew an aviation band transmitter is
illegal.

Bull$#!t.


And also you have to be a pilot or air traffic controller to operate an
aviation band transmitter

Bull$#!t.


- such transmitter must also pass specified
standards to be legal for use.

True.



A reciever is a different matter of course.
There are quite a few manufacturers that make aviation band reciever
kits.

Learn to spell receiver.

Jim

On Mon, 16 May 2005 19:53:23 -0400, "Netgeek"
wrote:

"Bob Lombardi" wrote in message

You won't find much of this information without buying the tech manuals on
these aviation band radios and reading about them.

I was hoping to avoid the "overt plagiarism" approach - but I guess I
could reserve the option of "covert plagiarism"??? 8-)

High power VHF/UHF AM transmitters are also used as audio subcarrier
transmitters in System-L television, which is used at least in France.
These require "full" audio bandwidth and good linearity for low audio
distortion in normal TV receivers. The audio exciters used in low
power relays might be in your power range, so try to find some info
about these transmitters, most likely only in French.

Paul