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Uses for Old UPSes
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:55:29 -0800, "Bob Headrick"
wrote: "Highland Ham" wrote in message .. . Bob , Interesting info ; can you confirm that the 18 pcs 12V battery were in fact 9 strings of 2 batts in series (each string having a fuse ) providing 24 V ? or were all the 18 batts in parallel ? Actually they were all in series, making it a bit nerve-wracking to replace a battery in the string. - Bob W7OV 216 volt battery pack??? I don't think so. |
Uses for Old UPSes
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Uses for Old UPSes
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:05:54 -0500, "Brent Atkerson"
wrote: This one interests me. Wonder how many small UPSs you could run from a truck battery (assuming using heavy enough cables between each UPS and each battery [when needed for the 24 volt input]). I am sure you would have to leave the vehicle running if running the UPSs for any length of time or heavy load... Probably pretty basic questions but I am kind of interested because I have a couple laying around and never thought of using them as an inverter (powered by a vehicle). That would make a neat addition to a garden tractor or something too... Better check first if the UPS can handle a log term run of a battery. It might be that it was designed for a short term, just to give you enough time to power everything down properly. Longer runt time might cause some marginal designs to overheat. Regards, Boris Mohar Got Knock? - see: Viatrack Printed Circuit Designs (among other things) http://www.viatrack.ca void _-void-_ in the obvious place |
Uses for Old UPSes
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Uses for Old UPSes
hi very good point, many older units will not startup w/o
running from a/c power first. Some newer APC models you can 'fool' it into startup by pressing the test button with it offline. Another factor, many of these older units like the Exide, Best, Liebert and Trip Lite are full sine wave units, a real bargian at today prices. There was an article in QST on adapting a smaller ups to run on an external battery. Very easy to to, just use good fuses MaxiFuse on the leads. Some of these newer units use microprocessors to run the thing so if the don't power on without batteries, they are useless except for the transformers. 73 dude Beware that some UPSes refuse to start without A/C voltage present. Kind of stupid, but it's reality. That could hinder their use for emergency. |
Uses for Old UPSes
Good point bob,
my liebert unit is full sine wave, from a supermarket pos system, just replaced all three 12v batteries with new ones, they are in series, 36 vdc. My work ups, exide 12kva unit used 60 batteries, three phased in series 240vdc dude. Bob Headrick wrote: "Highland Ham" wrote in message ... Bob , Interesting info ; can you confirm that the 18 pcs 12V battery were in fact 9 strings of 2 batts in series (each string having a fuse ) providing 24 V ? or were all the 18 batts in parallel ? Actually they were all in series, making it a bit nerve-wracking to replace a battery in the string. - Bob W7OV |
Uses for Old UPSes
Yes, very possible !
Exide models as well at the other big boys Liebert etc. use this configuration. They use torrid transformers, very compact, the entire assy about the size of a loaf of white bread ! The ups w batteries about 36" cubed. 12 KVA 3 phased. dude 216 volt battery pack??? I don't think so. No, quite possible and makes some design sense - they would not need a heavy output transformer in the unit boosting the voltage of a 36V or 48V battery string after converting it to a sine wave AC, as 216V would be right around the sine wave peak voltage of 120VAC. Just run the battery DC through two sets of power transistors to let through a reconstituted sine wave - one for the positive half of the output waveform, the other negative. And it cuts the current the transistors have to pass. -- Bruce -- -- Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700 5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545 Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net. |
Uses for Old UPSes
On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 21:14:33 -0800, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
I am the "lucky" owner of a number of older UPSes. So what can a person build out of these? The batteries are for the most part dead but the remainder of the components seem to be in good condition. Any suggestions? Sell them to FedEx? ;-) -- Cheers! Rich ------ "Grain grows best in ****." -- U.K. LeGuin |
Uses for Old UPSes
On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 16:22:24 GMT, Ignoramus22022
wrote: On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 16:13:58 GMT, Bruce L Bergman wrote: On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 wrote: On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:55:29 -0800, "Bob Headrick" wrote: "Highland Ham" wrote: Bob , Interesting info ; can you confirm that the 18 pcs 12V battery were in fact 9 strings of 2 batts in series (each string having a fuse ) providing 24 V ? or were all the 18 batts in parallel ? Actually they were all in series, making it a bit nerve-wracking to replace a battery in the string. 216 volt battery pack??? I don't think so. No, quite possible and makes some design sense - they would not need a heavy output transformer in the unit boosting the voltage of a 36V or 48V battery string after converting it to a sine wave AC, as 216V would be right around the sine wave peak voltage of 120VAC. Just run the battery DC through two sets of power transistors to let through a reconstituted sine wave - one for the positive half of the output waveform, the other negative. And it cuts the current the transistors have to pass. Bruce, this also sounds like a simple approach to generating 3 phase out of DC. Without the noise and weight of rotary phase converters. What are your thoughts on that? Quite Plausible, but when you add the caveat of reproducing 3-Phase power the engineering just got really complicated, and more than likely rather expensive. And I'm NOT a high-powered electronics drive wonk by any means, the best I could do for fixing them is look for the obviously crispy components and swap out the blown boards - or swap the crispy parts and diodes that fail a VOM test and see if that does it. With a single phase inverter, they're just doing a push-pull on one 240V lead, relative to the center tapped neutral. When you try 3-phase, there's going to be constant voltage, current and capacitance interaction between all three sets of "hot AC" switching transistors (or Triacs, or whatever). And the load's resistive, inductive and capacitive components are all going to come into play. The resulting inverter would need to be built rather robust, and be able to overcome drive issues with brute force where finesse won't do. Compared to that, RPC's are the KISS method. And RPC's aren't a bad way to go, if they are well balanced and have cooling air you can tuck them away in a closet. -- Bruce -- -- Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700 5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545 Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net. |
Uses for Old UPSes
Ignoramus22022 wrote:
On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 23:21:02 GMT, Bruce L Bergman wrote: On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 16:22:24 GMT, Ignoramus22022 wrote: On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 16:13:58 GMT, Bruce L Bergman wrote: On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 wrote: On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:55:29 -0800, "Bob Headrick" wrote: "Highland Ham" wrote: Bob , Interesting info ; can you confirm that the 18 pcs 12V battery were in fact 9 strings of 2 batts in series (each string having a fuse ) providing 24 V ? or were all the 18 batts in parallel ? Actually they were all in series, making it a bit nerve-wracking to replace a battery in the string. 216 volt battery pack??? I don't think so. No, quite possible and makes some design sense - they would not need a heavy output transformer in the unit boosting the voltage of a 36V or 48V battery string after converting it to a sine wave AC, as 216V would be right around the sine wave peak voltage of 120VAC. Just run the battery DC through two sets of power transistors to let through a reconstituted sine wave - one for the positive half of the output waveform, the other negative. And it cuts the current the transistors have to pass. Bruce, this also sounds like a simple approach to generating 3 phase out of DC. Without the noise and weight of rotary phase converters. What are your thoughts on that? Quite Plausible, but when you add the caveat of reproducing 3-Phase power the engineering just got really complicated, and more than likely rather expensive. And I'm NOT a high-powered electronics drive wonk by any means, the best I could do for fixing them is look for the obviously crispy components and swap out the blown boards - or swap the crispy parts and diodes that fail a VOM test and see if that does it. With a single phase inverter, they're just doing a push-pull on one 240V lead, relative to the center tapped neutral. Right. As you know, I recently made a DC - AC inverter myself. When you try 3-phase, there's going to be constant voltage, current and capacitance interaction between all three sets of "hot AC" switching transistors (or Triacs, or whatever). And the load's resistive, inductive and capacitive components are all going to come into play. Yep. The resulting inverter would need to be built rather robust, and be able to overcome drive issues with brute force where finesse won't do. Compared to that, RPC's are the KISS method. And RPC's aren't a bad way to go, if they are well balanced and have cooling air you can tuck them away in a closet. You are right. I am going to redo my RPC into a 17.5 HP RPC. (two motors, 10 and 7.5 HP). Right now I have a 10 HP RPC. Someone offered me a Semikron 6 IGBT drive, with which I could make a 3 phase inverter. That sort of made me interested. i Get your hands on a large, like 30kw or better, used as in "please take it out of here", three phase, online UPS from a computer room installation. As long as you can supply adequate power to the DC bus the inverter portion will happily generate your three phase power with no issues with designing and inverter or trying to synchronize three inverters or duty cycle problems. It's a DC - 3 phase AC continuous duty inverter, ready-to-go. Pete C. |
Uses for Old UPSes
The Exide we have is configurable on output
via software, you can setup the output via the control panel or use a laptop via rs232 and term pgm. the 12kva unit we have (5 years old) is under 200 lbs w/o batteries, uses 60 12v 7ah std cells. |
Uses for Old UPSes
Thanks for the input! I'll get out the Fluke and download the .PDF and see
what I can find before I burn the place down :) I was sort of hoping to be able to replace the stock batteries but they are so insanely expensive, hacking the box for batteries I have no use for (Still in the plastic wrap and caps on. got them in a barter) Get this- Mercedes wanted $430.00 to replace my battery for P/M- Yea right, my car now has a Optima yellow in the trunk and why a factory (much smaller and lighter too) battery would be junk after two years blows my mind. Thanks for the info and help! Rob Fraser Fraser Competition Engines Chicago, IL. "Highland Ham" wrote in message ... Would a 12 V deep cycle- Optima work in a APC-UPS 1400R I keep my servers and dyno on with it along with some routers and switches. I don't know the output, the battery fails and I now have it frightfully bypassed. The batteries died and are almost 2 bills to replace. voltages ? issues? but I have a few Optima batteries from wrecked race cars that would be perfect! =================== Suggest you check the charging instructions on the original battery and compare these with the ones applicable to the Optima type of battery. The battery in a UPS is on 'standby duty' The charging instruction for a YUASA SLA found in many UPSes has the following for standby duty : Voltage regulation : 13.5 - 13.8 V Initial current : Unlimited Connect the Optima battery to the UPS and check the voltage when the battery is fully charged . You can charge the battery externally to say 13.5 volt before you connect it to the UPS. If the fully charged voltage is in the above range ,you can safely use it for this purpose. I would think that any 12 V SLA will happily work with your APC UPS 1400R ,provided its capacity is adequate for the load to be maintained for the minimum time needed. If you use a number of batts in parallel ,please ensure there is an adequate FUSE in each battery circuit ! You can also connect a much larger 12 V sealed battery to the UPS (for example those used in electric golf trolleys). Even non-sealed batts can be used provided they are located in a well ventilated area . I have non-sealed batts located on the loft connected via leads made from welding cable running to equipment in the ground floor radio shack ( to feed radio equipment requiring a peak current not exceeding 25 Amperes) Above I mentioned batts for Golf trolleys because their cost is very reasonable nowadays there being a relatively large demand , hence competition (pun intended) Frank GMØCSZ / KN6WH |
Uses for Old UPSes
RDF wrote:
Thanks for the input! I'll get out the Fluke and download the .PDF and see what I can find before I burn the place down :) I was sort of hoping to be able to replace the stock batteries but they are so insanely expensive, hacking the box for batteries I have no use for (Still in the plastic wrap and caps on. got them in a barter) Get this- Mercedes wanted $430.00 to replace my battery for P/M- Yea right, my car now has a Optima yellow in the trunk and why a factory (much smaller and lighter too) battery would be junk after two years blows my mind. Thanks for the info and help! Rob Fraser Fraser Competition Engines Chicago, IL. The VP of my department found the same thing with the battery in his BMW. He decided that the zillion dollar original was BS so I sent him to my favorite battery distributor for an Optima and helped him retrofit the hold down. Pete C. |
Uses for Old UPSes
Pete,
I hear ya- loud and clear. This one is even better. At 30k the P/M is to replace the serpentine belt (fully logical) I asked "How much" expecting about $30.00 He told me $220.79 Now, my car has my company name and graphic on the trunk lid, I asked the guy if it was correct and he reassured me it was and it needed a "special tool" to change it. So in I peek. Went and got a 4" C- clamp to compress a hydraulic cylinder to maintain pressure on the tensioner and installed a Gates Powergrip belt ( at a whopping $14.99 at NAPA) I wonder what a $200.00 C-clamp does :) Moral of the story- I'm not the brightest guy on the planet but that is plain theft. And people pay it, I feel sorry for them. This is why I had my ex-girlfriend's daughter take autoshop and work for me in the summer. Let some other sucker bite that hook. That in itself justified me buying a complete factory service manual and a Benz logic cartridge set for my Snap-On scanner. Hell, I would have spent that on a belt alone from the dealer. I know it's very OT but it just leaves me angry to recall it and think I'd go for it. All the best, Rob Fraser Fraser Competition Engines Chicago, IL. "Pete C." wrote in message ... RDF wrote: Thanks for the input! I'll get out the Fluke and download the .PDF and see what I can find before I burn the place down :) I was sort of hoping to be able to replace the stock batteries but they are so insanely expensive, hacking the box for batteries I have no use for (Still in the plastic wrap and caps on. got them in a barter) Get this- Mercedes wanted $430.00 to replace my battery for P/M- Yea right, my car now has a Optima yellow in the trunk and why a factory (much smaller and lighter too) battery would be junk after two years blows my mind. Thanks for the info and help! Rob Fraser Fraser Competition Engines Chicago, IL. The VP of my department found the same thing with the battery in his BMW. He decided that the zillion dollar original was BS so I sent him to my favorite battery distributor for an Optima and helped him retrofit the hold down. Pete C. |
Uses for Old UPSes
RDF wrote:
Pete, I hear ya- loud and clear. This one is even better. At 30k the P/M is to replace the serpentine belt (fully logical) I asked "How much" expecting about $30.00 He told me $220.79 Now, my car has my company name and graphic on the trunk lid, I asked the guy if it was correct and he reassured me it was and it needed a "special tool" to change it. So in I peek. Went and got a 4" C- clamp to compress a hydraulic cylinder to maintain pressure on the tensioner and installed a Gates Powergrip belt ( at a whopping $14.99 at NAPA) I wonder what a $200.00 C-clamp does :) Moral of the story- I'm not the brightest guy on the planet but that is plain theft. And people pay it, I feel sorry for them. This is why I had my ex-girlfriend's daughter take autoshop and work for me in the summer. Let some other sucker bite that hook. That in itself justified me buying a complete factory service manual and a Benz logic cartridge set for my Snap-On scanner. Hell, I would have spent that on a belt alone from the dealer. I know it's very OT but it just leaves me angry to recall it and think I'd go for it. All the best, Rob Fraser Fraser Competition Engines Chicago, IL. With each new vehicle I have owned, I have ordered the factory service manual(s) at the same time I ordered the vehicle. I can't understand people who whine about a $100 manual set when they just spent $30,000 or more on the vehicle. I've read every one of those manuals cover to cover several times and you learn quite a bit. Pete C. |
Uses for Old UPSes
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 05:34:47 GMT, Ignoramus10725
wrote: On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 21:43:24 -0600, RDF wrote: Pete, I hear ya- loud and clear. This one is even better. At 30k the P/M is to replace the serpentine belt (fully logical) I asked "How much" expecting about $30.00 He told me $220.79 Now, my car has my company name and graphic on the trunk lid, I asked the guy if it was correct and he reassured me it was and it needed a "special tool" to change it. So in I peek. Went and got a 4" C- clamp to compress a hydraulic cylinder to maintain pressure on the tensioner and installed a Gates Powergrip belt ( at a whopping $14.99 at NAPA) I wonder what a $200.00 C-clamp does :) Moral of the story- I'm not the brightest guy on the planet but that is plain theft. And people pay it, I feel sorry for them. This is why I had my ex-girlfriend's daughter take autoshop and work for me in the summer. Let some other sucker bite that hook. That in itself justified me buying a complete factory service manual and a Benz logic cartridge set for my Snap-On scanner. Hell, I would have spent that on a belt alone from the dealer. I do not even bother looking for honest car mechanics anymore. I gave up. I do everything I can do on my truck, myself. If that takes buying tools, usually I buy tools as it turns out to be cheaper anyway. Furthermore, I even do not deal with car mechanics when they try to sell their used stuff (my hobby is to resell used equipment on ebay). As soon as I learn that the seller is a car mechanic, I say something polite and hang up. That's not out of bitterness or some such, this policy does not make me lose money. I just know that I would come in, he would be unreasonable in his asking prices and likely even impolite, and try to screw me in every way he can. i Too bad all you've met are the bad ones. There are a few good ones left - but most of US have gotten out.(which leaves only the bad ones for you to deal with). I got out, largely, because the CUSTOMERS are unpolite, demanding,dishonest, cheap, and generally impossible to satisfy - even when you do something for nothing. They book their car for 3 hours of work and don't show up, after you have made room in your busy schedule to get them in NOW - and that is only because it is IMPOSSIBLE to do it yesterday. Then they want you to diagnose the problem over the phone and guarantee the price - AND be cheaper than the other 10 or 12 mechanics they have done the same thing to. If you can't get the parts PRONTO, they cry and complain - and you can NOT have every possible part available - the dealers don't either. Then they lie about what has happened to the car, because they want it to be someone elses fault and problem, not their own. You fix the car and they leave and stop payment on the check or dispute the charge on their credit card. Not only that, they bad-mouth you to everyone who will listen when at the bar, a party, or wherever, whenever the subject of auto repair or car problems comes up - which is ANY time. Then 3 months later, after you have fixed, say the brakes, they come back with the wiper motor not working - and - you guessed it - its YOUR fault!!!! It just wasn't fun any more after 25 years - and its gotten a whole lot worse in the last 15 or more years. I know it's very OT but it just leaves me angry to recall it and think I'd go for it. All the best, Rob Fraser Fraser Competition Engines Chicago, IL. "Pete C." wrote in message ... RDF wrote: Thanks for the input! I'll get out the Fluke and download the .PDF and see what I can find before I burn the place down :) I was sort of hoping to be able to replace the stock batteries but they are so insanely expensive, hacking the box for batteries I have no use for (Still in the plastic wrap and caps on. got them in a barter) Get this- Mercedes wanted $430.00 to replace my battery for P/M- Yea right, my car now has a Optima yellow in the trunk and why a factory (much smaller and lighter too) battery would be junk after two years blows my mind. Thanks for the info and help! Rob Fraser Fraser Competition Engines Chicago, IL. The VP of my department found the same thing with the battery in his BMW. He decided that the zillion dollar original was BS so I sent him to my favorite battery distributor for an Optima and helped him retrofit the hold down. Pete C. |
Uses for Old UPSes
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Uses for Old UPSes
On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 15:52:36 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote: Not entirely true, the few lucky people who have been able to find honest, reliable mechanics do tend to speak highly of them. Only those who have the sense to know the value of finding and keeping a good mechanic (or any other tradesman/proffessional) There are fewer of THEM out there than there are honest reliable mechanics. It just wasn't fun any more after 25 years - and its gotten a whole lot worse in the last 15 or more years. Remember that the people bringing in the cars in the last 15 years or so as you have noted, are the parents (or now their children) from the generation that has deluded themselves into the belief that mechanical trades (dirty jobs) are somehow devoid of education and skill and have actively discouraged their children from having any interest in such things. This delusion of the PYVs (plastic yuppie vermin) is furthered by the increasing complexity of cars and the thought that the grease monkeys couldn't possibly understand anything about computers so they must just be swapping parts until things magically start working. And I got out of the mechanics trade and into the computer service world - - -. It's only going to get worse too... That's what I decided 17 years ago. And I was right. Now everybody's kid wants to be a computer tech instead of a mechanic - and for the same reason kids wanted to be mechanics 40 years ago. 40 years ago the "gearheads" wanted to be mechanics to fool around with their first love - the CAR. Now the "computer nerds" want to be able to play with THEIR first love - the Computer / Game console/ Whatever. And they will work for almost nothing just to be able to do it. and their method of repair??? "swapping parts until things magically start working" Time for a THIRD career?? (4th if you include teaching) Pete C. |
Uses for Old UPSes
"Pete C." wrote:
Not entirely true, the few lucky people who have been able to find honest, reliable mechanics do tend to speak highly of them. Remember that the people bringing in the cars in the last 15 years or so as you have noted, are the parents (or now their children) from the generation that has deluded themselves into the belief that mechanical trades (dirty jobs) are somehow devoid of education and skill and have actively discouraged their children from having any interest in such things. This delusion of the PYVs (plastic yuppie vermin) is furthered by the increasing complexity of cars and the thought that the grease monkeys couldn't possibly understand anything about computers so they must just be swapping parts until things magically start working. It's only going to get worse too... Pete C. Seven or eight years ago the gas gauge quit on my dad's jeep. He took it to the dealer. The changed the sending unit. Then they changed the gauge. They had it over a week and still hadn't fixed it, so he paid them over $400 to get it back. I took a look at it and found the problem in 15 seconds. The lug on the ground wire to the sending unit had snapped, and the wire was hanging down, in plain sight. A new lug took a few minutes to install and it worked fine, till he traded it in on a new car a few years later. -- ? Michael A. Terrell Central Florida |
Uses for Old UPSes
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Uses for Old UPSes
Pete C. wrote: Remember that the people bringing in the cars in the last 15 years or so as you have noted, are the parents (or now their children) from the generation that has deluded themselves into the belief that mechanical trades (dirty jobs) are somehow devoid of education and skill and have actively discouraged their children from having any interest in such things. I think you mean they are the "children (or now parents)"- this type of mental dyslexia is disturbing to the meticulous reader. This delusion of the PYVs (plastic yuppie vermin) is furthered by the increasing complexity of cars and the thought that the grease monkeys couldn't possibly understand anything about computers so they must just be swapping parts until things magically start working. I like that- PYV- good acronym- or "awesome" as the PYV say. |
Uses for Old UPSes
Ignoramus12834 wrote: On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 15:52:36 GMT, Pete C. wrote: This delusion of the PYVs (plastic yuppie vermin) is furthered by the increasing complexity of cars and the thought that the grease monkeys couldn't possibly understand anything about computers so they must just be swapping parts until things magically start working. They keep swapping parts because it makes them money. A true story. A couple of years ago, a lightning struck a big tree in our yard: http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/lightning/ That also knocked out our central A/C. So, I went in with a multimeter and tried tracing just where does not signal go etc. I learned that the control board was sending proper signal to the motor drive board, etc. Then we called an A/C guy. He calls me at work and says stuff like "the main board is probably knocked out and needs replacement", lets replace this and that etc. I asked him just what basis do you have for saying so. (because I knew that it was bull****). He mumbled some nonsense. I decided not to hire him, although I paid his visit fee. I did not feel like hiring someone who is either incompetent or a crook. I called another A/C company and explained them my findings etc. He replaced the motor drive board, it was covered by warranty (but labor was not), and everything works fine to date. Some other things failed since, such as quick disconnect terminals fell apart on the main contactor, but the control system is fine. The moral of the story, they want replacing parts because it makes $$ for them. i The moral of the story is that you are PYV. All the electronic boards are LRUs in the mechanical trades and there is no way that repair could be cost effective any other way, parts are way below labor costs. In the case of a lightning strike where one board has failed, it is good practice to yank *all* of them and be done with it. You are getting *new* boards at reasonable markup, you pay a single labor charge, and there is no possibility of less than a durable fix or additional damage being done due to faulty drive. I can see the HVAC tech breaking out the oxy-acetylene torch to solder components...too funny. |
Uses for Old UPSes
Fred Bloggs wrote:
Pete C. wrote: Remember that the people bringing in the cars in the last 15 years or so as you have noted, are the parents (or now their children) from the generation that has deluded themselves into the belief that mechanical trades (dirty jobs) are somehow devoid of education and skill and have actively discouraged their children from having any interest in such things. I think you mean they are the "children (or now parents)"- this type of mental dyslexia is disturbing to the meticulous reader. No, I meant it in the order it was in. The PYV parents came first 15 or so years ago, followed later by the children of the PYVs once they were old enough to have cars needing repairing. This delusion of the PYVs (plastic yuppie vermin) is furthered by the increasing complexity of cars and the thought that the grease monkeys couldn't possibly understand anything about computers so they must just be swapping parts until things magically start working. I like that- PYV- good acronym- or "awesome" as the PYV say. It's quick, descriptive and accurate. Pete C. |
Uses for Old UPSes
On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 14:32:08 GMT, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote: "Pete C." wrote: Not entirely true, the few lucky people who have been able to find honest, reliable mechanics do tend to speak highly of them. Remember that the people bringing in the cars in the last 15 years or so as you have noted, are the parents (or now their children) from the generation that has deluded themselves into the belief that mechanical trades (dirty jobs) are somehow devoid of education and skill and have actively discouraged their children from having any interest in such things. This delusion of the PYVs (plastic yuppie vermin) is furthered by the increasing complexity of cars and the thought that the grease monkeys couldn't possibly understand anything about computers so they must just be swapping parts until things magically start working. It's only going to get worse too... Pete C. Seven or eight years ago the gas gauge quit on my dad's jeep. He took it to the dealer. The changed the sending unit. Then they changed the gauge. They had it over a week and still hadn't fixed it, so he paid them over $400 to get it back. I took a look at it and found the problem in 15 seconds. The lug on the ground wire to the sending unit had snapped, and the wire was hanging down, in plain sight. A new lug took a few minutes to install and it worked fine, till he traded it in on a new car a few years later. Shrug...I spent $65 to have my truck run though the computer diagnostics. They couldnt find the problem, suggested some high dollar repairs..shotgun approach. I replaced the badly worn distro cap and the rotor. Ran fine after than. Im starting to think that there are more button pushers than actual tradesmen in auto mechanics. Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
Uses for Old UPSes
I had a mid-90's Chevy S-10 with antilock brakes. One day, the brakes
made a funny sound and the service light came on. I noticed that the brakes were not behaving properly. I took the truck in for "Mr. Goodwrench" to take a look. They told me that I would need a new antilock computer and the cost was something on the order of $1000. I told them to forget it. I limped the truck home and later, curiosity got the better of me. I jacked up the truck so that the front wheels could spin, and then I went hunting for wheel rotation sensors. Connecting my scope, I could see a nice, clean sine wave coming off the front right wheel. The waveform from the front left wheel, however, had a a very irregular shape that was much lower in amplitude. I purchased a new rotation sensor for $75 bucks, pulled the wheel and brake disk, and installed it. Everything worked like a champ after that. It appeared that the old sensor had been struck by rock, and the core of the sense coil had probably been fractured. I was left to wonder how it is that, without the benefit of factory training, documentation, or diagnostic equipment I could troubleshoot and repair the problem when the dealership could not.... Michael A. Terrell wrote: "Pete C." wrote: Not entirely true, the few lucky people who have been able to find honest, reliable mechanics do tend to speak highly of them. Remember that the people bringing in the cars in the last 15 years or so as you have noted, are the parents (or now their children) from the generation that has deluded themselves into the belief that mechanical trades (dirty jobs) are somehow devoid of education and skill and have actively discouraged their children from having any interest in such things. This delusion of the PYVs (plastic yuppie vermin) is furthered by the increasing complexity of cars and the thought that the grease monkeys couldn't possibly understand anything about computers so they must just be swapping parts until things magically start working. It's only going to get worse too... Pete C. Seven or eight years ago the gas gauge quit on my dad's jeep. He took it to the dealer. The changed the sending unit. Then they changed the gauge. They had it over a week and still hadn't fixed it, so he paid them over $400 to get it back. I took a look at it and found the problem in 15 seconds. The lug on the ground wire to the sending unit had snapped, and the wire was hanging down, in plain sight. A new lug took a few minutes to install and it worked fine, till he traded it in on a new car a few years later. |
Uses for Old UPSes
"H. P. Friedrichs" wrote:
I had a mid-90's Chevy S-10 with antilock brakes. One day, the brakes made a funny sound and the service light came on. I noticed that the brakes were not behaving properly. I took the truck in for "Mr. Goodwrench" to take a look. They told me that I would need a new antilock computer and the cost was something on the order of $1000. I told them to forget it. I limped the truck home and later, curiosity got the better of me. I jacked up the truck so that the front wheels could spin, and then I went hunting for wheel rotation sensors. Connecting my scope, I could see a nice, clean sine wave coming off the front right wheel. The waveform from the front left wheel, however, had a a very irregular shape that was much lower in amplitude. I purchased a new rotation sensor for $75 bucks, pulled the wheel and brake disk, and installed it. Everything worked like a champ after that. It appeared that the old sensor had been struck by rock, and the core of the sense coil had probably been fractured. I was left to wonder how it is that, without the benefit of factory training, documentation, or diagnostic equipment I could troubleshoot and repair the problem when the dealership could not.... Michael A. Terrell wrote: That is why for the few things on my truck that I don't have the facilities to do myself and can't justify buying new tools, when I take it to the dealer for service I give them a specific set of instructions on what to do and clear warning that they are *not* to attempt any diagnosis or deviate from the exact work order I give them. Pete C. |
Uses for Old UPSes
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Uses for Old UPSes
On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 18:29:30 GMT, Gunner Asch
wrote: On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 14:32:08 GMT, "Michael A. Terrell" wrote: "Pete C." wrote: Not entirely true, the few lucky people who have been able to find honest, reliable mechanics do tend to speak highly of them. Remember that the people bringing in the cars in the last 15 years or so as you have noted, are the parents (or now their children) from the generation that has deluded themselves into the belief that mechanical trades (dirty jobs) are somehow devoid of education and skill and have actively discouraged their children from having any interest in such things. This delusion of the PYVs (plastic yuppie vermin) is furthered by the increasing complexity of cars and the thought that the grease monkeys couldn't possibly understand anything about computers so they must just be swapping parts until things magically start working. It's only going to get worse too... Pete C. Seven or eight years ago the gas gauge quit on my dad's jeep. He took it to the dealer. The changed the sending unit. Then they changed the gauge. They had it over a week and still hadn't fixed it, so he paid them over $400 to get it back. I took a look at it and found the problem in 15 seconds. The lug on the ground wire to the sending unit had snapped, and the wire was hanging down, in plain sight. A new lug took a few minutes to install and it worked fine, till he traded it in on a new car a few years later. Shrug...I spent $65 to have my truck run though the computer diagnostics. They couldnt find the problem, suggested some high dollar repairs..shotgun approach. I replaced the badly worn distro cap and the rotor. Ran fine after than. Im starting to think that there are more button pushers than actual tradesmen in auto mechanics. Gunner And you need to ask why?????? Anyone with half a brain got out of the business 15 or 20 years ago. ANd not too many with half a brain or more are getting into the business over the last 20 years. When I started in the late sixties, it was the lowest paid trade - bar none. When I taught the trade in the seventies, the attitude at the schools was "he's too dumb to make a scientist, plumber, electrician, or machinist out of - and too smart to be a lawyer, so we'll put him in Auto Mechanics. So I had to teach them electrical, plumbing, physics, machining, math, and all the rest to make mechanics out of them. "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
Uses for Old UPSes
In article ,
"H. P. Friedrichs" wrote: [...] I was left to wonder how it is that, without the benefit of factory training, documentation, or diagnostic equipment I could troubleshoot and repair the problem when the dealership could not.... Depends heavily on the tech who looks at it. I was handed a truck a couple of weeks ago that someone had spent all day trying to troubleshoot. No cruise control, no Jake brakes. He'd thrashed around for eight hours, running diagnostics, checking sensors, even popped the valve covers to check the brake solenoids. I found the broken clutch pedal return spring in less than a minute. $12 part, five minutes to install. -- B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net |
Uses for Old UPSes
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:50:03 GMT, Ignoramus4324
wrote: On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 18:27:24 -0700, H. P. Friedrichs wrote: It appeared that the old sensor had been struck by rock, and the core of the sense coil had probably been fractured. I was left to wonder how it is that, without the benefit of factory training, documentation, or diagnostic equipment I could troubleshoot and repair the problem when the dealership could not.... It is not true that you did not have diagnostic equipment, you had a scope. You also had enough training to figure out where to look. As for documentation, everyone would benefit from owning proper repair manuals. What these techs do is, for the most part, not magic, they follow a [well designed] procedure -- except when the dishonest ones suggest unnecessary repairs, as in proposing to start swapping one part after another. i In many cases these mechanics are not so much dishonest as ignorant. They just plain do NOT know how to troubleshoot. The ones that have the manual, and know how to read it (that is an art in itself - particularly with FORD Manuals) they blindly follow the pinpoint tests - which can send you in 15 interlocking circles at the same time if you do not use your PDT (Primary Diagnostic Tool) (Otherwize known as the brain God gave you). Blindly following the manual can cause you to replace many parts that are not part of the problem. In order to effectively troubleshoot today's systems, you MUST have an understanding of how it is SUPPOSED to work, so when it doesn't, you have a clue as to why. |
Uses for Old UPSes
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:50:03 +0000, Ignoramus4324 wrote:
On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 18:27:24 -0700, H. P. Friedrichs wrote: It appeared that the old sensor had been struck by rock, and the core of the sense coil had probably been fractured. I was left to wonder how it is that, without the benefit of factory training, documentation, or diagnostic equipment I could troubleshoot and repair the problem when the dealership could not.... It is not true that you did not have diagnostic equipment, you had a scope. You also had enough training to figure out where to look. As for documentation, everyone would benefit from owning proper repair manuals. What these techs do is, for the most part, not magic, they follow a [well designed] procedure -- except when the dishonest ones suggest unnecessary repairs, as in proposing to start swapping one part after another. Yeah, I went to Midas for a "$39.99" muffler. When I finally got the car back, the bill was over $400.00. I should have sued the *******s. Don't ever go to Midas, and tell your friends, relatives, and what the heck, people on the street: Don't go to Midas - they're thieves. Thanks, Rich |
Uses for Old UPSes
Ed Huntress wrote: "Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message oups.com... I am the "lucky" owner of a number of older UPSes. So what can a person build out of these? The batteries are for the most part dead but the remainder of the components seem to be in good condition. Any suggestions? Thanks TMT If you can get your hands on a copy of the 2005 ARRL Handbook, there are several suggestions in there (radio-related, but you can improvise from them), and some information about UPS's. One is a charger for 12V storage batteries in general, including car batteries. Another is an emergency power supply (you can just run two wires to your car battery, or a bank of deep-discharge batteries wired in parallel if you're so inclined). Depending on the model you have, you can get 160 W to over 300 W of 120 VAC and/or 12VDC from them. Mine (an APC Back-UPS 600) is now wired to an old car battery. It will run my computer for a lot longer than the old gel-cell that came with it. Since we're on the end of a power transmission line, it gets a fair amount of use. -- Ed Huntress Ed from Ed I just picked up a apc bk500. I charged it most of the night and the voltage only shows 98 volt on battery. The instructions on the internet show some sort of cd disc for windows which I do not have with a good battery can I just use it as it is for a usp for the computer. no alarm led lights on and it appears to be working fine thanks Ed |
Uses for Old UPSes
"Ed ke6bnl" wrote in message
oups.com... Ed Huntress wrote: "Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message oups.com... I am the "lucky" owner of a number of older UPSes. So what can a person build out of these? The batteries are for the most part dead but the remainder of the components seem to be in good condition. Any suggestions? Thanks TMT If you can get your hands on a copy of the 2005 ARRL Handbook, there are several suggestions in there (radio-related, but you can improvise from them), and some information about UPS's. One is a charger for 12V storage batteries in general, including car batteries. Another is an emergency power supply (you can just run two wires to your car battery, or a bank of deep-discharge batteries wired in parallel if you're so inclined). Depending on the model you have, you can get 160 W to over 300 W of 120 VAC and/or 12VDC from them. Mine (an APC Back-UPS 600) is now wired to an old car battery. It will run my computer for a lot longer than the old gel-cell that came with it. Since we're on the end of a power transmission line, it gets a fair amount of use. -- Ed Huntress Ed from Ed I just picked up a apc bk500. I charged it most of the night and the voltage only shows 98 volt on battery. The instructions on the internet show some sort of cd disc for windows which I do not have with a good battery can I just use it as it is for a usp for the computer. no alarm led lights on and it appears to be working fine thanks Ed I'm not aware of the inner workings of these things, Ed, nor have I put an AC voltmeter on the output, running off the car battery, to see what actual voltage I'm getting. The computer runs fine off of it but now you have my curiosity going. -- Ed Huntress |
Uses for Old UPSes
Ed from Ed I just picked up a apc bk500. I charged it most of the night
and the voltage only shows 98 volt on battery. The instructions on the internet show some sort of cd disc for windows which I do not have with a good battery can I just use it as it is for a usp for the computer. no alarm led lights on and it appears to be working fine thanks Ed I'm not aware of the inner workings of these things, Ed, nor have I put an AC voltmeter on the output, running off the car battery, to see what actual voltage I'm getting. The computer runs fine off of it but now you have my curiosity going. It might be worth re-checking the AC output voltage using a voltmeter which reads "true RMS". Most inexpensive voltmeters actually read the peak voltage, and display an RMS value calculated based on the assumption that the waveform is sinusoidal. A lot of backup power supplies use inverters that create a distinctly non-sinusoidal waveform... it's sometimes a square wave, and sometimes a "stepped" waveform which crudely approximates a sinusoid. It's entirely possible that the APC BK500 creates a non-sinusoidal waveform, whose RMS value is close to the nominal 120 VAC, but whose peak voltage is lower than that of a true sinusoid having 120 VAC RMS. This could cause most inexpensive voltmeters to read a value that's too low. -- Dave Platt AE6EO Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! |
Uses for Old UPSes
The APC BK500 has a step Output waveform that would be no problem for a
computer and monitor. MGE UPS systems are a sinewave "Dave Platt" wrote in message ... Ed from Ed I just picked up a apc bk500. I charged it most of the night and the voltage only shows 98 volt on battery. The instructions on the internet show some sort of cd disc for windows which I do not have with a good battery can I just use it as it is for a usp for the computer. no alarm led lights on and it appears to be working fine thanks Ed I'm not aware of the inner workings of these things, Ed, nor have I put an AC voltmeter on the output, running off the car battery, to see what actual voltage I'm getting. The computer runs fine off of it but now you have my curiosity going. It might be worth re-checking the AC output voltage using a voltmeter which reads "true RMS". Most inexpensive voltmeters actually read the peak voltage, and display an RMS value calculated based on the assumption that the waveform is sinusoidal. A lot of backup power supplies use inverters that create a distinctly non-sinusoidal waveform... it's sometimes a square wave, and sometimes a "stepped" waveform which crudely approximates a sinusoid. It's entirely possible that the APC BK500 creates a non-sinusoidal waveform, whose RMS value is close to the nominal 120 VAC, but whose peak voltage is lower than that of a true sinusoid having 120 VAC RMS. This could cause most inexpensive voltmeters to read a value that's too low. -- Dave Platt AE6EO Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! |
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