Uses for Old UPSes
 

Ignoramus22022 wrote:

On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 01:04:56 GMT, Pete C. wrote:
Ignoramus22022 wrote:

On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 23:21:02 GMT, Bruce L Bergman wrote:
On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 16:22:24 GMT, Ignoramus22022
wrote:
On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 16:13:58 GMT, Bruce L Bergman wrote:
On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 wrote:
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:55:29 -0800, "Bob Headrick" wrote:
"Highland Ham" wrote:

Bob , Interesting info ; can you confirm that the 18 pcs 12V battery were
in fact 9 strings of 2 batts in series (each string having a fuse )
providing 24 V ? or were all the 18 batts in parallel ?

Actually they were all in series, making it a bit nerve-wracking to replace a
battery in the string.

216 volt battery pack??? I don't think so.

No, quite possible and makes some design sense - they would not need
a heavy output transformer in the unit boosting the voltage of a 36V
or 48V battery string after converting it to a sine wave AC, as 216V
would be right around the sine wave peak voltage of 120VAC. Just run
the battery DC through two sets of power transistors to let through a
reconstituted sine wave - one for the positive half of the output
waveform, the other negative.

And it cuts the current the transistors have to pass.

Bruce, this also sounds like a simple approach to generating 3 phase
out of DC. Without the noise and weight of rotary phase
converters. What are your thoughts on that?

Quite Plausible, but when you add the caveat of reproducing 3-Phase
power the engineering just got really complicated, and more than
likely rather expensive. And I'm NOT a high-powered electronics drive
wonk by any means, the best I could do for fixing them is look for the
obviously crispy components and swap out the blown boards - or swap
the crispy parts and diodes that fail a VOM test and see if that does
it.

With a single phase inverter, they're just doing a push-pull on one
240V lead, relative to the center tapped neutral.

Right. As you know, I recently made a DC - AC inverter myself.

When you try 3-phase, there's going to be constant voltage, current
and capacitance interaction between all three sets of "hot AC"
switching transistors (or Triacs, or whatever). And the load's
resistive, inductive and capacitive components are all going to come
into play.

Yep.

The resulting inverter would need to be built rather robust, and be
able to overcome drive issues with brute force where finesse won't do.
Compared to that, RPC's are the KISS method. And RPC's aren't a bad
way to go, if they are well balanced and have cooling air you can tuck
them away in a closet.

You are right. I am going to redo my RPC into a 17.5 HP RPC. (two
motors, 10 and 7.5 HP). Right now I have a 10 HP RPC.

Someone offered me a Semikron 6 IGBT drive, with which I could make a
3 phase inverter. That sort of made me interested.

i

Get your hands on a large, like 30kw or better, used as in "please take
it out of here", three phase, online UPS from a computer room
installation. As long as you can supply adequate power to the DC bus the
inverter portion will happily generate your three phase power with no
issues with designing and inverter or trying to synchronize three
inverters or duty cycle problems. It's a DC - 3 phase AC continuous duty
inverter, ready-to-go.

A 30 kVa UPS would weigh approximately a ton. That's without
batteries. It is beyond what I can handle.

No way, I put in a 30kw 3 phase UPS (Best Unity/1) and it was close to a
ton with batteries. Without batteries (when I moved it across a raised
floor with a pallet jack) it was far under a ton.


Since it needs a system for producing DC, it would be comparable to
what the UPS already has.

It has a system for producing DC, it's just setup for three phase input.
Depending on how it is configured it could be quite easy to rework the
input section for single phase. The more modular the design the better
and you might get lucky and find three discrete DC supplies, one fed
from each phase, that couldn't care less if they were actually 120
degrees apart.


That means that I would have a monster that weighs a ton.

That would mean you have all the clean sine wave three phase power your
shop could need, uninterruptable no less, and heat for the winter.


I almost bought a 15 kVa UPS though.

i

The building I used to work in had about six monster UPSes in the
basement, each feeding a 600A 208/120V 3 phase buss duct running up
through the building to multiple PDUs. They had the nice 5 gal size
glass cased batteries in the strings. Also had five 800KW diesel
generators with paralleling switch gear and 40,000 gal of fuel supply.
Redundant utility feeds as well. Place would have made a nice house if
it was in a better location :)

Pete C.

Uses for Old UPSes
 

The Exide we have is configurable on output
via software, you can setup the output
via the control panel or use a laptop via
rs232 and term pgm.

the 12kva unit we have (5 years old)
is under 200 lbs w/o batteries, uses 60 12v 7ah
std cells.

Uses for Old UPSes
 

Thanks for the input! I'll get out the Fluke and download the .PDF and see
what I can find before I burn the place down :) I was sort of hoping to be
able to replace the stock batteries but they are so insanely expensive,
hacking the box for batteries I have no use for (Still in the plastic wrap
and caps on. got them in a barter) Get this- Mercedes wanted $430.00 to
replace my battery for P/M- Yea right, my car now has a Optima yellow in the
trunk and why a factory (much smaller and lighter too) battery would be junk
after two years blows my mind.

Thanks for the info and help!

Rob Fraser


Fraser Competition Engines
Chicago, IL.


"Highland Ham" wrote in message
...
Would a 12 V deep cycle- Optima work in a APC-UPS 1400R I keep my servers
and dyno on with it along with some routers and switches. I don't know
the output, the battery fails and I now have it frightfully bypassed. The
batteries died and are almost 2 bills to replace. voltages ? issues? but
I have a few Optima batteries from wrecked race cars that would be
perfect!
===================
Suggest you check the charging instructions on the original battery and
compare these with the ones applicable to the Optima type of battery.
The battery in a UPS is on 'standby duty' The charging instruction for a
YUASA SLA found in many UPSes has the following for standby duty :
Voltage regulation : 13.5 - 13.8 V
Initial current : Unlimited

Connect the Optima battery to the UPS and check the voltage when the
battery is fully charged . You can charge the battery externally to say
13.5 volt before you connect it to the UPS. If the fully charged
voltage is in the above range ,you can safely use it for this purpose.
I would think that any 12 V SLA will happily work with your APC UPS 1400R
,provided its capacity is adequate for the load to be maintained for the
minimum time needed. If you use a number of batts in parallel ,please
ensure there is an adequate FUSE in each battery circuit !
You can also connect a much larger 12 V sealed battery to the UPS (for
example those used in electric golf trolleys). Even non-sealed batts can
be used provided they are located in a well ventilated area .
I have non-sealed batts located on the loft connected via leads made from
welding cable running to equipment in the ground floor radio shack ( to
feed radio equipment requiring a peak current not exceeding 25 Amperes)

Above I mentioned batts for Golf trolleys because their cost is very
reasonable nowadays there being a relatively large demand , hence
competition (pun intended)

Frank GMØCSZ / KN6WH

Uses for Old UPSes
 

RDF wrote:

Thanks for the input! I'll get out the Fluke and download the .PDF and see
what I can find before I burn the place down :) I was sort of hoping to be
able to replace the stock batteries but they are so insanely expensive,
hacking the box for batteries I have no use for (Still in the plastic wrap
and caps on. got them in a barter) Get this- Mercedes wanted $430.00 to
replace my battery for P/M- Yea right, my car now has a Optima yellow in the
trunk and why a factory (much smaller and lighter too) battery would be junk
after two years blows my mind.

Thanks for the info and help!

Rob Fraser

Fraser Competition Engines
Chicago, IL.

The VP of my department found the same thing with the battery in his
BMW. He decided that the zillion dollar original was BS so I sent him to
my favorite battery distributor for an Optima and helped him retrofit
the hold down.

Pete C.

Uses for Old UPSes
 

Pete,
I hear ya- loud and clear. This one is even better. At 30k the P/M is to
replace the serpentine belt (fully logical) I asked "How much" expecting
about $30.00 He told me $220.79 Now, my car has my company name and graphic
on the trunk lid, I asked the guy if it was correct and he reassured me it
was and it needed a "special tool" to change it. So in I peek. Went and got
a 4" C- clamp to compress a hydraulic cylinder to maintain pressure on the
tensioner and installed a Gates Powergrip belt ( at a whopping $14.99 at
NAPA) I wonder what a $200.00 C-clamp does :)
Moral of the story- I'm not the brightest guy on the planet but that is
plain theft. And people pay it, I feel sorry for them. This is why I had my
ex-girlfriend's daughter take autoshop and work for me in the summer. Let
some other sucker bite that hook. That in itself justified me buying a
complete factory service manual and a Benz logic cartridge set for my
Snap-On scanner. Hell, I would have spent that on a belt alone from the
dealer.

I know it's very OT but it just leaves me angry to recall it and think
I'd go for it.

All the best,

Rob Fraser


Fraser Competition Engines
Chicago, IL.
"Pete C." wrote in message
...
RDF wrote:

Thanks for the input! I'll get out the Fluke and download the .PDF and
see
what I can find before I burn the place down :) I was sort of hoping to
be
able to replace the stock batteries but they are so insanely expensive,
hacking the box for batteries I have no use for (Still in the plastic
wrap
and caps on. got them in a barter) Get this- Mercedes wanted $430.00 to
replace my battery for P/M- Yea right, my car now has a Optima yellow in
the
trunk and why a factory (much smaller and lighter too) battery would be
junk
after two years blows my mind.

Thanks for the info and help!

Rob Fraser

Fraser Competition Engines
Chicago, IL.

The VP of my department found the same thing with the battery in his
BMW. He decided that the zillion dollar original was BS so I sent him to
my favorite battery distributor for an Optima and helped him retrofit
the hold down.

Pete C.

Uses for Old UPSes
 

RDF wrote:

Pete,
I hear ya- loud and clear. This one is even better. At 30k the P/M is to
replace the serpentine belt (fully logical) I asked "How much" expecting
about $30.00 He told me $220.79 Now, my car has my company name and graphic
on the trunk lid, I asked the guy if it was correct and he reassured me it
was and it needed a "special tool" to change it. So in I peek. Went and got
a 4" C- clamp to compress a hydraulic cylinder to maintain pressure on the
tensioner and installed a Gates Powergrip belt ( at a whopping $14.99 at
NAPA) I wonder what a $200.00 C-clamp does :)
Moral of the story- I'm not the brightest guy on the planet but that is
plain theft. And people pay it, I feel sorry for them. This is why I had my
ex-girlfriend's daughter take autoshop and work for me in the summer. Let
some other sucker bite that hook. That in itself justified me buying a
complete factory service manual and a Benz logic cartridge set for my
Snap-On scanner. Hell, I would have spent that on a belt alone from the
dealer.

I know it's very OT but it just leaves me angry to recall it and think
I'd go for it.

All the best,

Rob Fraser

Fraser Competition Engines
Chicago, IL.

With each new vehicle I have owned, I have ordered the factory service
manual(s) at the same time I ordered the vehicle. I can't understand
people who whine about a $100 manual set when they just spent $30,000 or
more on the vehicle. I've read every one of those manuals cover to cover
several times and you learn quite a bit.

Pete C.

Uses for Old UPSes
 

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 05:34:47 GMT, Ignoramus10725
wrote:

On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 21:43:24 -0600, RDF wrote:
Pete,
I hear ya- loud and clear. This one is even better. At 30k the P/M is to
replace the serpentine belt (fully logical) I asked "How much" expecting
about $30.00 He told me $220.79 Now, my car has my company name and graphic
on the trunk lid, I asked the guy if it was correct and he reassured me it
was and it needed a "special tool" to change it. So in I peek. Went and got
a 4" C- clamp to compress a hydraulic cylinder to maintain pressure on the
tensioner and installed a Gates Powergrip belt ( at a whopping $14.99 at
NAPA) I wonder what a $200.00 C-clamp does :)
Moral of the story- I'm not the brightest guy on the planet but that is
plain theft. And people pay it, I feel sorry for them. This is why I had my
ex-girlfriend's daughter take autoshop and work for me in the summer. Let
some other sucker bite that hook. That in itself justified me buying a
complete factory service manual and a Benz logic cartridge set for my
Snap-On scanner. Hell, I would have spent that on a belt alone from the
dealer.

I do not even bother looking for honest car mechanics anymore. I gave
up. I do everything I can do on my truck, myself. If that takes buying
tools, usually I buy tools as it turns out to be cheaper anyway.

Furthermore, I even do not deal with car mechanics when they try to
sell their used stuff (my hobby is to resell used equipment on ebay).

As soon as I learn that the seller is a car mechanic, I say something
polite and hang up. That's not out of bitterness or some such, this
policy does not make me lose money. I just know that I would come in,
he would be unreasonable in his asking prices and likely even
impolite, and try to screw me in every way he can.

i

Too bad all you've met are the bad ones. There are a few good ones
left - but most of US have gotten out.(which leaves only the bad ones
for you to deal with).
I got out, largely, because the CUSTOMERS are unpolite,
demanding,dishonest, cheap, and generally impossible to satisfy - even
when you do something for nothing.
They book their car for 3 hours of work and don't show up, after you
have made room in your busy schedule to get them in NOW - and that is
only because it is IMPOSSIBLE to do it yesterday. Then they want you
to diagnose the problem over the phone and guarantee the price - AND
be cheaper than the other 10 or 12 mechanics they have done the same
thing to. If you can't get the parts PRONTO, they cry and complain -
and you can NOT have every possible part available - the dealers don't
either. Then they lie about what has happened to the car, because they
want it to be someone elses fault and problem, not their own.
You fix the car and they leave and stop payment on the check or
dispute the charge on their credit card. Not only that, they bad-mouth
you to everyone who will listen when at the bar, a party, or wherever,
whenever the subject of auto repair or car problems comes up - which
is ANY time. Then 3 months later, after you have fixed, say the
brakes, they come back with the wiper motor not working - and - you
guessed it - its YOUR fault!!!!


It just wasn't fun any more after 25 years - and its gotten a whole
lot worse in the last 15 or more years.

I know it's very OT but it just leaves me angry to recall it and think
I'd go for it.

All the best,

Rob Fraser


Fraser Competition Engines
Chicago, IL.
"Pete C." wrote in message
...
RDF wrote:

Thanks for the input! I'll get out the Fluke and download the .PDF and
see
what I can find before I burn the place down :) I was sort of hoping to
be
able to replace the stock batteries but they are so insanely expensive,
hacking the box for batteries I have no use for (Still in the plastic
wrap
and caps on. got them in a barter) Get this- Mercedes wanted $430.00 to
replace my battery for P/M- Yea right, my car now has a Optima yellow in
the
trunk and why a factory (much smaller and lighter too) battery would be
junk
after two years blows my mind.

Thanks for the info and help!

Rob Fraser

Fraser Competition Engines
Chicago, IL.

The VP of my department found the same thing with the battery in his
BMW. He decided that the zillion dollar original was BS so I sent him to
my favorite battery distributor for an Optima and helped him retrofit
the hold down.

Pete C.

Uses for Old UPSes
 

Uses for Old UPSes
 

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 15:52:36 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:


Not entirely true, the few lucky people who have been able to find
honest, reliable mechanics do tend to speak highly of them.


Only those who have the sense to know the value of finding and keeping
a good mechanic (or any other tradesman/proffessional) There are fewer
of THEM out there than there are honest reliable mechanics.

It just wasn't fun any more after 25 years - and its gotten a whole
lot worse in the last 15 or more years.

Remember that the people bringing in the cars in the last 15 years or so
as you have noted, are the parents (or now their children) from the
generation that has deluded themselves into the belief that mechanical
trades (dirty jobs) are somehow devoid of education and skill and have
actively discouraged their children from having any interest in such
things.

This delusion of the PYVs (plastic yuppie vermin) is furthered by the
increasing complexity of cars and the thought that the grease monkeys
couldn't possibly understand anything about computers so they must just
be swapping parts until things magically start working.

And I got out of the mechanics trade and into the computer service
world - - -.

It's only going to get worse too...

That's what I decided 17 years ago. And I was right.

Now everybody's kid wants to be a computer tech instead of a mechanic
- and for the same reason kids wanted to be mechanics 40 years ago. 40
years ago the "gearheads" wanted to be mechanics to fool around with
their first love - the CAR.
Now the "computer nerds" want to be able to play with THEIR first love
- the Computer / Game console/ Whatever.
And they will work for almost nothing just to be able to do it. and
their method of repair??? "swapping parts until things magically start
working"

Time for a THIRD career?? (4th if you include teaching)

Pete C.

Uses for Old UPSes
 

"Pete C." wrote:

Not entirely true, the few lucky people who have been able to find
honest, reliable mechanics do tend to speak highly of them.





Remember that the people bringing in the cars in the last 15 years or so
as you have noted, are the parents (or now their children) from the
generation that has deluded themselves into the belief that mechanical
trades (dirty jobs) are somehow devoid of education and skill and have
actively discouraged their children from having any interest in such
things.

This delusion of the PYVs (plastic yuppie vermin) is furthered by the
increasing complexity of cars and the thought that the grease monkeys
couldn't possibly understand anything about computers so they must just
be swapping parts until things magically start working.

It's only going to get worse too...

Pete C.


Seven or eight years ago the gas gauge quit on my dad's jeep. He
took it to the dealer. The changed the sending unit. Then they changed
the gauge. They had it over a week and still hadn't fixed it, so he paid
them over $400 to get it back. I took a look at it and found the problem
in 15 seconds. The lug on the ground wire to the sending unit had
snapped, and the wire was hanging down, in plain sight. A new lug took a
few minutes to install and it worked fine, till he traded it in on a new
car a few years later.
--
?

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida