On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 05:34:47 GMT, Ignoramus10725
wrote:

On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 21:43:24 -0600, RDF wrote:
Pete,
I hear ya- loud and clear. This one is even better. At 30k the P/M is to
replace the serpentine belt (fully logical) I asked "How much" expecting
about $30.00 He told me $220.79 Now, my car has my company name and graphic
on the trunk lid, I asked the guy if it was correct and he reassured me it
was and it needed a "special tool" to change it. So in I peek. Went and got
a 4" C- clamp to compress a hydraulic cylinder to maintain pressure on the
tensioner and installed a Gates Powergrip belt ( at a whopping $14.99 at
NAPA) I wonder what a $200.00 C-clamp does
Moral of the story- I'm not the brightest guy on the planet but that is
plain theft. And people pay it, I feel sorry for them. This is why I had my
ex-girlfriend's daughter take autoshop and work for me in the summer. Let
some other sucker bite that hook. That in itself justified me buying a
complete factory service manual and a Benz logic cartridge set for my
Snap-On scanner. Hell, I would have spent that on a belt alone from the
dealer.

I do not even bother looking for honest car mechanics anymore. I gave
up. I do everything I can do on my truck, myself. If that takes buying
tools, usually I buy tools as it turns out to be cheaper anyway.

Furthermore, I even do not deal with car mechanics when they try to
sell their used stuff (my hobby is to resell used equipment on ebay).

As soon as I learn that the seller is a car mechanic, I say something
polite and hang up. That's not out of bitterness or some such, this
policy does not make me lose money. I just know that I would come in,
he would be unreasonable in his asking prices and likely even
impolite, and try to screw me in every way he can.

i

Too bad all you've met are the bad ones. There are a few good ones
left - but most of US have gotten out.(which leaves only the bad ones
for you to deal with).
I got out, largely, because the CUSTOMERS are unpolite,
demanding,dishonest, cheap, and generally impossible to satisfy - even
when you do something for nothing.
They book their car for 3 hours of work and don't show up, after you
have made room in your busy schedule to get them in NOW - and that is
only because it is IMPOSSIBLE to do it yesterday. Then they want you
to diagnose the problem over the phone and guarantee the price - AND
be cheaper than the other 10 or 12 mechanics they have done the same
thing to. If you can't get the parts PRONTO, they cry and complain -
and you can NOT have every possible part available - the dealers don't
either. Then they lie about what has happened to the car, because they
want it to be someone elses fault and problem, not their own.
You fix the car and they leave and stop payment on the check or
dispute the charge on their credit card. Not only that, they bad-mouth
you to everyone who will listen when at the bar, a party, or wherever,
whenever the subject of auto repair or car problems comes up - which
is ANY time. Then 3 months later, after you have fixed, say the
brakes, they come back with the wiper motor not working - and - you
guessed it - its YOUR fault!!!!


It just wasn't fun any more after 25 years - and its gotten a whole
lot worse in the last 15 or more years.

I know it's very OT but it just leaves me angry to recall it and think
I'd go for it.

All the best,

Rob Fraser


Fraser Competition Engines
Chicago, IL.
"Pete C." wrote in message
...
RDF wrote:

Thanks for the input! I'll get out the Fluke and download the .PDF and
see
what I can find before I burn the place down I was sort of hoping to
be
able to replace the stock batteries but they are so insanely expensive,
hacking the box for batteries I have no use for (Still in the plastic
wrap
and caps on. got them in a barter) Get this- Mercedes wanted $430.00 to
replace my battery for P/M- Yea right, my car now has a Optima yellow in
the
trunk and why a factory (much smaller and lighter too) battery would be
junk
after two years blows my mind.

Thanks for the info and help!

Rob Fraser

Fraser Competition Engines
Chicago, IL.

The VP of my department found the same thing with the battery in his
BMW. He decided that the zillion dollar original was BS so I sent him to
my favorite battery distributor for an Optima and helped him retrofit
the hold down.

Pete C.

wrote:


Too bad all you've met are the bad ones. There are a few good ones
left - but most of US have gotten out.(which leaves only the bad ones
for you to deal with).
I got out, largely, because the CUSTOMERS are unpolite,
demanding,dishonest, cheap, and generally impossible to satisfy - even
when you do something for nothing.
They book their car for 3 hours of work and don't show up, after you
have made room in your busy schedule to get them in NOW - and that is
only because it is IMPOSSIBLE to do it yesterday. Then they want you
to diagnose the problem over the phone and guarantee the price - AND
be cheaper than the other 10 or 12 mechanics they have done the same
thing to. If you can't get the parts PRONTO, they cry and complain -
and you can NOT have every possible part available - the dealers don't
either. Then they lie about what has happened to the car, because they
want it to be someone elses fault and problem, not their own.
You fix the car and they leave and stop payment on the check or
dispute the charge on their credit card. Not only that, they bad-mouth
you to everyone who will listen when at the bar, a party, or wherever,
whenever the subject of auto repair or car problems comes up - which
is ANY time. Then 3 months later, after you have fixed, say the
brakes, they come back with the wiper motor not working - and - you
guessed it - its YOUR fault!!!!


Not entirely true, the few lucky people who have been able to find
honest, reliable mechanics do tend to speak highly of them.


It just wasn't fun any more after 25 years - and its gotten a whole
lot worse in the last 15 or more years.

Remember that the people bringing in the cars in the last 15 years or so
as you have noted, are the parents (or now their children) from the
generation that has deluded themselves into the belief that mechanical
trades (dirty jobs) are somehow devoid of education and skill and have
actively discouraged their children from having any interest in such
things.

This delusion of the PYVs (plastic yuppie vermin) is furthered by the
increasing complexity of cars and the thought that the grease monkeys
couldn't possibly understand anything about computers so they must just
be swapping parts until things magically start working.

It's only going to get worse too...

Pete C.

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 15:52:36 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:


Not entirely true, the few lucky people who have been able to find
honest, reliable mechanics do tend to speak highly of them.


Only those who have the sense to know the value of finding and keeping
a good mechanic (or any other tradesman/proffessional) There are fewer
of THEM out there than there are honest reliable mechanics.

It just wasn't fun any more after 25 years - and its gotten a whole
lot worse in the last 15 or more years.

Remember that the people bringing in the cars in the last 15 years or so
as you have noted, are the parents (or now their children) from the
generation that has deluded themselves into the belief that mechanical
trades (dirty jobs) are somehow devoid of education and skill and have
actively discouraged their children from having any interest in such
things.

This delusion of the PYVs (plastic yuppie vermin) is furthered by the
increasing complexity of cars and the thought that the grease monkeys
couldn't possibly understand anything about computers so they must just
be swapping parts until things magically start working.

And I got out of the mechanics trade and into the computer service
world - - -.

It's only going to get worse too...

That's what I decided 17 years ago. And I was right.

Now everybody's kid wants to be a computer tech instead of a mechanic
- and for the same reason kids wanted to be mechanics 40 years ago. 40
years ago the "gearheads" wanted to be mechanics to fool around with
their first love - the CAR.
Now the "computer nerds" want to be able to play with THEIR first love
- the Computer / Game console/ Whatever.
And they will work for almost nothing just to be able to do it. and
their method of repair??? "swapping parts until things magically start
working"

Time for a THIRD career?? (4th if you include teaching)

Pete C.

wrote:

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 15:52:36 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

Not entirely true, the few lucky people who have been able to find
honest, reliable mechanics do tend to speak highly of them.


Only those who have the sense to know the value of finding and keeping
a good mechanic (or any other tradesman/proffessional) There are fewer
of THEM out there than there are honest reliable mechanics.


Its like the days when there were real TV shops. The techs knew what
they were doing, and went to every available factory school to keep up
with the new designs. Most people thought you just shoved tubes in till
the set worked, and that it was criminal to even want to make minimum
wage. They were rude, ignorant, and price shopped for the cheapest
service calls. Well, guess what? The cheapest service calls were the
fly by night operators who worked out of the trunk of their car, or in
one case, a dirty old hippie in a VW van that reeked of marijuana some.
It was rare to find a good customer who understood that it took time to
repair something, and some parts took time to find.

We had a "Customer" take us to small claims court because we charged
for an estimate. He claimed that his mechanic didn't charge for an
estimate, so we had no right to, either. He and the judge had big
smiles on their faces as they told my boss he was wrong. My boss plopped
a RCA CTC38 series chassis on the Judge's bench and said, Well, in that
case would you mind telling me what's wrong with this set? The judge
started yelling that he had no idea what was wrong so my boss asked, If
you can't tell by looking, how can we? We have to find the problem,
replace the part and make sure there are no other problems before we can
give you an accurate estimate. He won the case.



It just wasn't fun any more after 25 years - and its gotten a whole
lot worse in the last 15 or more years.

Remember that the people bringing in the cars in the last 15 years or so
as you have noted, are the parents (or now their children) from the
generation that has deluded themselves into the belief that mechanical
trades (dirty jobs) are somehow devoid of education and skill and have
actively discouraged their children from having any interest in such
things.

This delusion of the PYVs (plastic yuppie vermin) is furthered by the
increasing complexity of cars and the thought that the grease monkeys
couldn't possibly understand anything about computers so they must just
be swapping parts until things magically start working.

And I got out of the mechanics trade and into the computer service
world - - -.

It's only going to get worse too...

That's what I decided 17 years ago. And I was right.

Now everybody's kid wants to be a computer tech instead of a mechanic
- and for the same reason kids wanted to be mechanics 40 years ago. 40
years ago the "gearheads" wanted to be mechanics to fool around with
their first love - the CAR.
Now the "computer nerds" want to be able to play with THEIR first love
- the Computer / Game console/ Whatever.
And they will work for almost nothing just to be able to do it. and
their method of repair??? "swapping parts until things magically start
working"


I started computer repair on the old Commodore 64. A scope and good
soldering skills were a must. I built a test bed with ZIF sockets to
test the different chips so I could verify that they were bad, and to
test new chips when they arrived for wherever I could buy them. Now,
I'm old and disabled so I repair PCs as a hobby. I collect dead and half
stripped computers and build working systems from the parts. They are
given to the local "Vets helping Vets" program so they can be given to
disabled Veterans who can not afford to buy a computer. It gives me
something to do for a few hours a day, but I really miss building TV
stations and telemetry equipment for the aerospace industry.

Time for a THIRD career?? (4th if you include teaching)

Pete C.


--
?

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

"Pete C." wrote:

Not entirely true, the few lucky people who have been able to find
honest, reliable mechanics do tend to speak highly of them.





Remember that the people bringing in the cars in the last 15 years or so
as you have noted, are the parents (or now their children) from the
generation that has deluded themselves into the belief that mechanical
trades (dirty jobs) are somehow devoid of education and skill and have
actively discouraged their children from having any interest in such
things.

This delusion of the PYVs (plastic yuppie vermin) is furthered by the
increasing complexity of cars and the thought that the grease monkeys
couldn't possibly understand anything about computers so they must just
be swapping parts until things magically start working.

It's only going to get worse too...

Pete C.


Seven or eight years ago the gas gauge quit on my dad's jeep. He
took it to the dealer. The changed the sending unit. Then they changed
the gauge. They had it over a week and still hadn't fixed it, so he paid
them over $400 to get it back. I took a look at it and found the problem
in 15 seconds. The lug on the ground wire to the sending unit had
snapped, and the wire was hanging down, in plain sight. A new lug took a
few minutes to install and it worked fine, till he traded it in on a new
car a few years later.
--
?

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 14:32:08 GMT, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

Not entirely true, the few lucky people who have been able to find
honest, reliable mechanics do tend to speak highly of them.





Remember that the people bringing in the cars in the last 15 years or so
as you have noted, are the parents (or now their children) from the
generation that has deluded themselves into the belief that mechanical
trades (dirty jobs) are somehow devoid of education and skill and have
actively discouraged their children from having any interest in such
things.

This delusion of the PYVs (plastic yuppie vermin) is furthered by the
increasing complexity of cars and the thought that the grease monkeys
couldn't possibly understand anything about computers so they must just
be swapping parts until things magically start working.

It's only going to get worse too...

Pete C.


Seven or eight years ago the gas gauge quit on my dad's jeep. He
took it to the dealer. The changed the sending unit. Then they changed
the gauge. They had it over a week and still hadn't fixed it, so he paid
them over $400 to get it back. I took a look at it and found the problem
in 15 seconds. The lug on the ground wire to the sending unit had
snapped, and the wire was hanging down, in plain sight. A new lug took a
few minutes to install and it worked fine, till he traded it in on a new
car a few years later.

Shrug...I spent $65 to have my truck run though the computer
diagnostics. They couldnt find the problem, suggested some high dollar
repairs..shotgun approach.

I replaced the badly worn distro cap and the rotor. Ran fine after
than.

Im starting to think that there are more button pushers than actual
tradesmen in auto mechanics.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 18:29:30 GMT, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 14:32:08 GMT, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

Not entirely true, the few lucky people who have been able to find
honest, reliable mechanics do tend to speak highly of them.





Remember that the people bringing in the cars in the last 15 years or so
as you have noted, are the parents (or now their children) from the
generation that has deluded themselves into the belief that mechanical
trades (dirty jobs) are somehow devoid of education and skill and have
actively discouraged their children from having any interest in such
things.

This delusion of the PYVs (plastic yuppie vermin) is furthered by the
increasing complexity of cars and the thought that the grease monkeys
couldn't possibly understand anything about computers so they must just
be swapping parts until things magically start working.

It's only going to get worse too...

Pete C.


Seven or eight years ago the gas gauge quit on my dad's jeep. He
took it to the dealer. The changed the sending unit. Then they changed
the gauge. They had it over a week and still hadn't fixed it, so he paid
them over $400 to get it back. I took a look at it and found the problem
in 15 seconds. The lug on the ground wire to the sending unit had
snapped, and the wire was hanging down, in plain sight. A new lug took a
few minutes to install and it worked fine, till he traded it in on a new
car a few years later.

Shrug...I spent $65 to have my truck run though the computer
diagnostics. They couldnt find the problem, suggested some high dollar
repairs..shotgun approach.

I replaced the badly worn distro cap and the rotor. Ran fine after
than.

Im starting to think that there are more button pushers than actual
tradesmen in auto mechanics.

Gunner


And you need to ask why??????
Anyone with half a brain got out of the business 15 or 20 years ago.
ANd not too many with half a brain or more are getting into the
business over the last 20 years.

When I started in the late sixties, it was the lowest paid trade - bar
none.
When I taught the trade in the seventies, the attitude at the schools
was "he's too dumb to make a scientist, plumber, electrician, or
machinist out of - and too smart to be a lawyer, so we'll put him in
Auto Mechanics.

So I had to teach them electrical, plumbing, physics, machining, math,
and all the rest to make mechanics out of them.

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

I had a mid-90's Chevy S-10 with antilock brakes. One day, the brakes
made a funny sound and the service light came on. I noticed that the
brakes were not behaving properly.

I took the truck in for "Mr. Goodwrench" to take a look. They told me
that I would need a new antilock computer and the cost was something on
the order of $1000. I told them to forget it.

I limped the truck home and later, curiosity got the better of me. I
jacked up the truck so that the front wheels could spin, and then I went
hunting for wheel rotation sensors. Connecting my scope, I could see a
nice, clean sine wave coming off the front right wheel. The waveform
from the front left wheel, however, had a a very irregular shape that
was much lower in amplitude.

I purchased a new rotation sensor for $75 bucks, pulled the wheel and
brake disk, and installed it. Everything worked like a champ after that.

It appeared that the old sensor had been struck by rock, and the core of
the sense coil had probably been fractured. I was left to wonder how it
is that, without the benefit of factory training, documentation, or
diagnostic equipment I could troubleshoot and repair the problem when
the dealership could not....

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

Not entirely true, the few lucky people who have been able to find
honest, reliable mechanics do tend to speak highly of them.





Remember that the people bringing in the cars in the last 15 years or so
as you have noted, are the parents (or now their children) from the
generation that has deluded themselves into the belief that mechanical
trades (dirty jobs) are somehow devoid of education and skill and have
actively discouraged their children from having any interest in such
things.

This delusion of the PYVs (plastic yuppie vermin) is furthered by the
increasing complexity of cars and the thought that the grease monkeys
couldn't possibly understand anything about computers so they must just
be swapping parts until things magically start working.

It's only going to get worse too...

Pete C.



Seven or eight years ago the gas gauge quit on my dad's jeep. He
took it to the dealer. The changed the sending unit. Then they changed
the gauge. They had it over a week and still hadn't fixed it, so he paid
them over $400 to get it back. I took a look at it and found the problem
in 15 seconds. The lug on the ground wire to the sending unit had
snapped, and the wire was hanging down, in plain sight. A new lug took a
few minutes to install and it worked fine, till he traded it in on a new
car a few years later.

"H. P. Friedrichs" wrote:

I had a mid-90's Chevy S-10 with antilock brakes. One day, the brakes
made a funny sound and the service light came on. I noticed that the
brakes were not behaving properly.

I took the truck in for "Mr. Goodwrench" to take a look. They told me
that I would need a new antilock computer and the cost was something on
the order of $1000. I told them to forget it.

I limped the truck home and later, curiosity got the better of me. I
jacked up the truck so that the front wheels could spin, and then I went
hunting for wheel rotation sensors. Connecting my scope, I could see a
nice, clean sine wave coming off the front right wheel. The waveform
from the front left wheel, however, had a a very irregular shape that
was much lower in amplitude.

I purchased a new rotation sensor for $75 bucks, pulled the wheel and
brake disk, and installed it. Everything worked like a champ after that.

It appeared that the old sensor had been struck by rock, and the core of
the sense coil had probably been fractured. I was left to wonder how it
is that, without the benefit of factory training, documentation, or
diagnostic equipment I could troubleshoot and repair the problem when
the dealership could not....

Michael A. Terrell wrote:


That is why for the few things on my truck that I don't have the
facilities to do myself and can't justify buying new tools, when I take
it to the dealer for service I give them a specific set of instructions
on what to do and clear warning that they are *not* to attempt any
diagnosis or deviate from the exact work order I give them.

Pete C.

In article ,
"H. P. Friedrichs" wrote:

[...]

I was left to wonder how it
is that, without the benefit of factory training, documentation, or
diagnostic equipment I could troubleshoot and repair the problem when
the dealership could not....

Depends heavily on the tech who looks at it. I was handed a truck a
couple of weeks ago that someone had spent all day trying to
troubleshoot. No cruise control, no Jake brakes. He'd thrashed around
for eight hours, running diagnostics, checking sensors, even popped the
valve covers to check the brake solenoids.
I found the broken clutch pedal return spring in less than a minute.
$12 part, five minutes to install.

--
B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net