"Standard parts" for rf amps?
 

RST Engineering wrote:
Well, just for starters, what does Spice say about a 1000 pf capacitor with
either ½" lead lengths or a total of 1" of PCB trace at 150 MHz.?

It's an inductor? ;-)

No such thing as a capacitor, or an inductor
or resistor for that matter. They all have
to be modelled as networks with L C and R
don't they?

vy 73

Andy, M1EBV

"Standard parts" for rf amps?
 

Henry Kiefer wrote:


To come back to your question: Spice will give you better results than your
real circuit!

Worked much DX with Spice, have you?

IMHO if the results from spice differ from the
real results then spice is wrong.

BTW have you got a realistic model for the
self-capacitance of an inductor? Can you
predict the self resonance within 5%?


vy 73

Andy, M1EBV

"Standard parts" for rf amps?
 

RST Engineering (jw) wrote:

Agreed, John, 150 MHz is damned near DC for a lot of us, but as yet I have
no answer from the "spice" folks for the 1 nf capacitor question. A lot of
fancydancing but no answers.



Try them on a toroidal inductor, even at HF. I have good reason to
believe they won't have anything like a model to predict self
capacitance/resonance.

vy 73

Andy, M1EBV

"Standard parts" for rf amps?
 

On Mon, 5 Dec 2005 17:14:15 GMT, Andy Cowley
wrote:

RST Engineering (jw) wrote:

Agreed, John, 150 MHz is damned near DC for a lot of us, but as yet I have
no answer from the "spice" folks for the 1 nf capacitor question. A lot of
fancydancing but no answers.



Try them on a toroidal inductor, even at HF. I have good reason to
believe they won't have anything like a model to predict self
capacitance/resonance.

vy 73

Andy, M1EBV

Model making is driven by need. 1nF capacitors don't exist on-chip
(at least not very often :), so I don't have a model. But I have
built a model of a wirebond that is good up into the 3GHz range.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

"Standard parts" for rf amps?
 

Andy Cowley wrote:
. . .
IMHO if the results from spice differ from the
real results then spice is wrong.
. . .

If the results from SPICE differ from the real results, then your model
is inadequate.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

"Standard parts" for rf amps?
 

Spice is as good as the input is!
Spice is not a Maxwell field equations solver!

You can predict within 5% without Spice?? How?

- Henry

"Andy Cowley" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
Henry Kiefer wrote:


To come back to your question: Spice will give you better results than
your
real circuit!

Worked much DX with Spice, have you?

IMHO if the results from spice differ from the
real results then spice is wrong.

BTW have you got a realistic model for the
self-capacitance of an inductor? Can you
predict the self resonance within 5%?


vy 73

Andy, M1EBV

"Standard parts" for rf amps?
 

On Mon, 5 Dec 2005 23:53:38 +0100, "Henry Kiefer"
wrote:

Spice is as good as the input is!
Spice is not a Maxwell field equations solver!

You can predict within 5% without Spice?? How?

- Henry

[snip]

Some of us have done better than 5% prediction BC (before CAD)... like
for close to 20 years before I ever saw a computer... and 25 years
before simulation software.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

"Standard parts" for rf amps?
 

Sure Jim. I understand you. That was the time where time was cheaper. Once I
programmed a Gauss linear equations system solver on my Casio FX-602P -
having 512 bytes and even left one byte (for extensions ;-) It was with
minimal input help system (Showing the indices to input) and the matrix was
of dynamical order. (Sorry for my bad english)

I can buy resistors and capacitors with 5%, sometimes with 1%. If you build
a rc oscillator with 1% component values, you get an error typical 1,5%. And
then you add the active components with horrible semiconductor strayung
values. Of course, it is possible with feedback structures to linearize and
stabilize such systems.
So, where is the difference between measurement of the component values and
calculating by hand the circuit OR setting the measured values in the Spice
component dialog boxes? The difference is the time needed and the
possibility to make errors.

5% is a real good value for an analog system.

Hey Jim - Why you don't answer my second private message? :-(

- Henry


"Jim Thompson" schrieb im
Newsbeitrag ...
On Mon, 5 Dec 2005 23:53:38 +0100, "Henry Kiefer"
wrote:

Spice is as good as the input is!
Spice is not a Maxwell field equations solver!

You can predict within 5% without Spice?? How?

- Henry

[snip]

Some of us have done better than 5% prediction BC (before CAD)... like
for close to 20 years before I ever saw a computer... and 25 years
before simulation software.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

"Standard parts" for rf amps?
 

The NE85633 bipolar transistor from California Eastern Laboratories
(CEL) ! very cheap quite stable and with a good noise figure. very well
documented by the manufacturer!
try to fish a development kit of SMD coils from Murata, sometimes they
give them away for free.
I personally prefer to go with air wound inductors, they're better and
quite small at these frequencies.
Saandy 4Z5KS

"Standard parts" for rf amps?
 

Thanks Saandy! I knew CEL but forget them ;-)

Seems the NE85633 is really cheap and good performance. The package is
reasoable for hobbyists.
Do you already converted the parameters to spice and is it possible to
provide the file to me? Thank you!

Should be a good oscillator and all-purpose amp...


Sure, plain wire is better than the manufactured coils if possible to apply.

cu -
Henry


"Saandy , 4Z5KS" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
oups.com...
The NE85633 bipolar transistor from California Eastern Laboratories
(CEL) ! very cheap quite stable and with a good noise figure. very well
documented by the manufacturer!
try to fish a development kit of SMD coils from Murata, sometimes they
give them away for free.
I personally prefer to go with air wound inductors, they're better and
quite small at these frequencies.
Saandy 4Z5KS

"Standard parts" for rf amps?
 

Sorry. I found the needed file at CEL website by searching for part number.
- Henry


"Henry Kiefer" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
Thanks Saandy! I knew CEL but forget them ;-)

Seems the NE85633 is really cheap and good performance. The package is
reasoable for hobbyists.
Do you already converted the parameters to spice and is it possible to
provide the file to me? Thank you!

Should be a good oscillator and all-purpose amp...


Sure, plain wire is better than the manufactured coils if possible to
apply.

cu -
Henry


"Saandy , 4Z5KS" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
oups.com...
The NE85633 bipolar transistor from California Eastern Laboratories
(CEL) ! very cheap quite stable and with a good noise figure. very well
documented by the manufacturer!
try to fish a development kit of SMD coils from Murata, sometimes they
give them away for free.
I personally prefer to go with air wound inductors, they're better and
quite small at these frequencies.
Saandy 4Z5KS

"Standard parts" for rf amps?
 

Henry Kiefer wrote...

I can buy resistors and capacitors with 5%, sometimes with 1%.
If you build a RC oscillator with 1% component values, you get
an error typical 1,5%.

I have a nice line of 2% caps in stock, but where do you
get the elusive (affordable) 1% capacitors?


--
Thanks,
- Win

"Standard parts" for rf amps?
 

On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 16:05:19 -0800, Winfield Hill wrote:

Henry Kiefer wrote...

I can buy resistors and capacitors with 5%, sometimes with 1%. If you
build a RC oscillator with 1% component values, you get an error typical
1,5%.

I have a nice line of 2% caps in stock, but where do you get the elusive
(affordable) 1% capacitors?

You have undergrads select them. :-)

Cheers!
Rich

"Standard parts" for rf amps?
 

For example http://www.wima.de/fkp2.htm
But I think there are other manufacturers too.

- Henry


"Winfield Hill" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
Henry Kiefer wrote...

I can buy resistors and capacitors with 5%, sometimes with 1%.
If you build a RC oscillator with 1% component values, you get
an error typical 1,5%.

I have a nice line of 2% caps in stock, but where do you
get the elusive (affordable) 1% capacitors?


--
Thanks,
- Win

"Standard parts" for rf amps?
 

OR two capacitors in parallel. The support cap has a nominal value of 1/100
of the bigger cap. So you can tune the bigger.

- Henry


"Rich Grise" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 16:05:19 -0800, Winfield Hill wrote:

Henry Kiefer wrote...

I can buy resistors and capacitors with 5%, sometimes with 1%. If you
build a RC oscillator with 1% component values, you get an error
typical
1,5%.

I have a nice line of 2% caps in stock, but where do you get the
elusive
(affordable) 1% capacitors?

You have undergrads select them. :-)

Cheers!
Rich

"Standard parts" for rf amps?
 

I have a nice line of 2% caps in stock, but where do you
get the elusive (affordable) 1% capacitors?

Digikey stocks a handful of Panasonic ECQ-P(Z),
POLYPROPYLENE, Radial, 0.001 to 0.47 uF.

Not a great selection, but probably good enough for
many timing applications if you do the fine tuning with
the size of the R.

--
The suespammers.org mail server is located in California. So are all my
other mailboxes. Please do not send unsolicited bulk e-mail or unsolicited
commercial e-mail to my suespammers.org address or any of my other addresses.
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam.

"Standard parts" for rf amps?
 

Hal Murray wrote...

I have a nice line of 2% caps in stock, but where do you
get the elusive (affordable) 1% capacitors?

Digikey stocks a handful of Panasonic ECQ-P(Z),
POLYPROPYLENE, Radial, 0.001 to 0.47 uF.

That's good to hear of, thanks! The 2% parts I have in stock
are the same series, but cheaper 2% parts. I didn't realize
DigiKey carried so many 1% film capacitor values in stock.


--
Thanks,
- Win

"Standard parts" for rf amps?
 

For timing purposes I suggest using a ready-to-use clock generator in tiny
SOT-23 or alike. For example from www.linear.com and www.maxim-ic.com
They have a accuracy well in the 2% range and can be tuned with a little
resistor 1%. Maxim sells a 32768Hz variant - crystal controlled.
They're all digital ouput!

Building a 32KHz oscillator with a clock crystal and having sinus output is
really simple with CMOS buffers.
You can mix the signal with RF getting an IF somewhere. Look at the app note
at www.cypress.com how to build a time-code receiver using that concept -
just of the cystral and cypress mixed-signal controller.

- Henry


"Winfield Hill" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
Hal Murray wrote...

I have a nice line of 2% caps in stock, but where do you
get the elusive (affordable) 1% capacitors?

Digikey stocks a handful of Panasonic ECQ-P(Z),
POLYPROPYLENE, Radial, 0.001 to 0.47 uF.

That's good to hear of, thanks! The 2% parts I have in stock
are the same series, but cheaper 2% parts. I didn't realize
DigiKey carried so many 1% film capacitor values in stock.


--
Thanks,
- Win

"Standard parts" for rf amps?
 

Henry,

"Henry Kiefer" wrote in message
...
Building a 32KHz oscillator with a clock crystal and having sinus output is
really simple with CMOS buffers.
You can mix the signal with RF getting an IF somewhere. Look at the app note
at www.cypress.com how to build a time-code receiver using that concept -
just of the cystral and cypress mixed-signal controller.

I don't suppose you have the name and/or number of that application note? I
did a little searching without success to find it.

---Joel Kolstad

"Standard parts" for rf amps?
 

Here it is Joel:
http://www.spectrum-benelux.com/docs...radioclock.pdf
(Seems that it is not on the cypress site)

If you realize something with the PSoC, then I would like to hear from you.

- Henry



"Joel Kolstad" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
Henry,

"Henry Kiefer" wrote in message
...
Building a 32KHz oscillator with a clock crystal and having sinus output
is
really simple with CMOS buffers.
You can mix the signal with RF getting an IF somewhere. Look at the app
note
at www.cypress.com how to build a time-code receiver using that
concept -
just of the cystral and cypress mixed-signal controller.

I don't suppose you have the name and/or number of that application note?
I
did a little searching without success to find it.

---Joel Kolstad

"Standard parts" for rf amps?
 

Henry Kiefer wrote:
(Snippage)

Building a 32KHz oscillator with a clock crystal and having sinus output is
really simple with CMOS buffers.
Like snot???

(more snippage)
Sorry. I couldn't resist it.

Merry Christmas to all!!!

-Bob

"Standard parts" for rf amps?
 

hayseed wrote:
Henry Kiefer wrote:

(Snippage)


Building a 32KHz oscillator with a clock crystal and having sinus
output is
really simple with CMOS buffers.

Like snot???

(more snippage)
Sorry. I couldn't resist it.

Merry Christmas to all!!!

-Bob
Turns out that if you really want micropower sinewave oscillation at
32kHz, you are far better off using bipolar transistors than CMOS gates.



--
Many thanks,

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Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
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