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#11
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13.8V high current power supply - update
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#12
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13.8V high current power supply - update
Limiting inrush current is mostly to protect the diodes as the first
charge the caps. For the first few ac cycles those caps look like a dead short or mightly close. Under those conditions the diodes have to stand the short circuit current the transformer can provide which can easily exceed diode rating if care is not taken. Also if a toroid mains transformer is used, the transformer start-up current can be huge for a large (say 1 kVA) transformer, which could harm the house wiring or burn the fuses in the main distribution panel. As far as harming house fuses or wiring, here in the USA and I'd bet most elsewhere the electrical codes provide for time delay fuses for surge loads and house wiring that is sufficently robust to withstand the rated current of the distribution fuses. That should not be an issue and the power supply should have it's own fusing. It could be a nusance if the power supply has a massive enough surge to open the mains fuse but there is not safety issue unless the mains fuse or wiring is improper. ================================ When switching on an Astron 13.8 V - 50 Amperes PSU ,the surge current is that high that it (usually)trips the mains 'over-current breaker ' in the switchboard. I shall now include a soft start facility ( resistor in 230V supply) which is by-passed as soon as DC output is established. Talking about 'mains fuses' : In Britain and many other European countries most (modern) domestic supply boards no longer have traditional (melting) wire fuses but (resettable) fast acting 'over current' cut-out devices . There are 100 Amperes wire fuses in each phase of the incoming supply cable ,but these can only be replaced by the electricity supply company ,since these fuses are each fitted inside a separate 'wired-lead-sealed' box. BTW the over-current breakers are separate from earth leak detection cut-out devices ,officially called residual current detectors (RCDs). Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH |
#13
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13.8V high current power supply - update
Paul Keinanen wrote:
Also if a toroid mains transformer is used, the transformer start-up current can be huge for a large (say 1 kVA) transformer, which could harm the house wiring or burn the fuses in the main distribution panel. Depending at what mains cycle phase angle the transformer was previously disconnected and on what phase angle it is reconnected to the mains, the start-up peak can be insignificant or the current can be huge, which is limited just by the copper resistance of the primary. This might be a good time to mention that light bulbs, which I've seen recommended here as a test load, have a resistance when cold that's only about a tenth their resistance when hot. So you'll get some pretty awesome current when you first connect one. A supply with foldback current limiting probably won't light one at all unless the voltage is raised slowly. Roy Lewallen, W7EL |
#14
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13.8V high current power supply - update
Roy Lewallen wrote:
This might be a good time to mention that light bulbs, which I've seen recommended here as a test load, have a resistance when cold that's only about a tenth their resistance when hot. So you'll get some pretty awesome current when you first connect one. A supply with foldback current limiting probably won't light one at all unless the voltage is raised slowly. That's a cool thing to know. Hmmmm ... Bobbie Barmore was discussing IOT power supplies and their crowbars on the GowBugs list a few months back. Seems that the test to see if the crowbar's good is pretty simple: 1) Turn everything off 2) Safety tag and padlock all the breakers and the START switch 3) Ground everything that even might think about biting 4) Put a piece of (?) 32-gauge wire between HV and ground. 5) Pull the shorting sticks, button everything up, unlock and untag the breakers, untag the START switch 6) Make sure everyone's clear and safe 7) Push the START switch The power supply's good for something like 700 mA at 35 KVDC, and it is a _really_ bad idea to get across it if you might pass less than abount 700 mA. But the wire's good for more than 700 mA, and so will look like a short to the PS. If the wire melts, vaporizes, or explodes, then the crowbar circuit is bad. It should be unaffected by the test. Put 35 KV across a piece of 32ga wire without blowing it up. Hydrogen thyratrons to dump the power, and fast-acting circuit breakers to Shut Things Down NOW, appear to be the way to protect the wire from the PS. Fascinating technology. Homebrew _that_. -- Mike Andrews, W5EGO Tired old sysadmin |
#15
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13.8V high current power supply - update
On Thu, 11 May 2006, Mike Andrews wrote: Roy Lewallen wrote: This might be a good time to mention that light bulbs, which I've seen recommended here as a test load, have a resistance when cold that's only about a tenth their resistance when hot. So you'll get some pretty awesome current when you first connect one. A supply with foldback current limiting probably won't light one at all unless the voltage is raised slowly. That's a cool thing to know. FYI, vacuum tube filaments show the same thing. Lower ohms when cold. More below... Hmmmm ... Bobbie Barmore was discussing IOT power supplies and their crowbars on the GowBugs list a few months back. Seems that the test to see if the crowbar's good is pretty simple: 1) Turn everything off 2) Safety tag and padlock all the breakers and the START switch 3) Ground everything that even might think about biting 4) Put a piece of (?) 32-gauge wire between HV and ground. 5) Pull the shorting sticks, button everything up, unlock and untag the breakers, untag the START switch 6) Make sure everyone's clear and safe 7) Push the START switch The power supply's good for something like 700 mA at 35 KVDC, and it is a _really_ bad idea to get across it if you might pass less than abount 700 mA. But the wire's good for more than 700 mA, and so will look like a short to the PS. If the wire melts, vaporizes, or explodes, then the crowbar circuit is bad. It should be unaffected by the test. Put 35 KV across a piece of 32ga wire without blowing it up. Hydrogen thyratrons to dump the power, and fast-acting circuit breakers to Shut Things Down NOW, appear to be the way to protect the wire from the PS. Fascinating technology. Homebrew _that_. 35 KV at 700 ma? Exploding wires might not dump all the charge (what size capacitor?). Maybe need 2-3 dozen carbon resistors in series with a milliamp meter to monitor remaining voltage? -- Mike Andrews, W5EGO Tired old sysadmin |
#16
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13.8V high current power supply - update
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#17
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13.8V high current power supply - update
Mike,
I'm confused. The "crowbar" I am familiar with is an over voltage protection device. If the supply output voltage goes up too high, it triggers, turns on providing a very lo resistance load and effectively shorting the output. Thus it initiates the over current protection device, whatever that is. If I read this correctly, it appears you are PLACING a short on the supply and testing the over current protector... It sounds like "Crowbar" is also used for an over- current protector... I always thought the term came from using a real 1 inch diameter steel crowbar (the tipe used in Christmas Story to open the crate containing the leg lamp) to short the output of a power supply as a really good way to get to zero volts in a hurry - but only in principle, of course. 73, Steve, K9DCI "Mike Andrews" wrote in message ... Hmmmm ... Bobbie Barmore was discussing IOT power supplies and their crowbars on the GowBugs list a few months back. Seems that the test to see if the crowbar's good is pretty simple: 1) Turn everything off 2) Safety tag and padlock all the breakers and the START switch 3) Ground everything that even might think about biting 4) Put a piece of (?) 32-gauge wire between HV and ground. 5) Pull the shorting sticks, button everything up, unlock and untag the breakers, untag the START switch 6) Make sure everyone's clear and safe 7) Push the START switch The power supply's good for something like 700 mA at 35 KVDC, and it is a _really_ bad idea to get across it if you might pass less than abount 700 mA. But the wire's good for more than 700 mA, and so will look like a short to the PS. If the wire melts, vaporizes, or explodes, then the crowbar circuit is bad. It should be unaffected by the test. Put 35 KV across a piece of 32ga wire without blowing it up. Hydrogen thyratrons to dump the power, and fast-acting circuit breakers to Shut Things Down NOW, appear to be the way to protect the wire from the PS. Fascinating technology. Homebrew _that_. -- Mike Andrews, W5EGO Tired old sysadmin |
#18
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13.8V high current power supply - update
Steve N. wrote:
Mike, I'm confused. The "crowbar" I am familiar with is an over voltage protection device. If the supply output voltage goes up too high, it triggers, turns on providing a very lo resistance load and effectively shorting the output. Thus it initiates the over current protection device, whatever that is. If I read this correctly, it appears you are PLACING a short on the supply and testing the over current protector... It sounds like "Crowbar" is also used for an over- current protector... I always thought the term came from using a real 1 inch diameter steel crowbar (the tipe used in Christmas Story to open the crate containing the leg lamp) to short the output of a power supply as a really good way to get to zero volts in a hurry - but only in principle, of course. 73, Steve, K9DCI You're on the money as to what gets done to save the IOT. It's a lot more expensive than the entire power supply, and so the PS gets to suck it up between the time the hydrogen thyratron (or ignitron or whatever) turns on and the time the overcurrent limiter or magnetic- controlled breaker on the PS input decides to Turn Things Off Right Damnit _Now_. You're also on the money about crowbars being used as overcurrent protection as well as overvoltage protection. My experience with crowbars involves both the voltage-foldback flavor and the current-foldback flavor. Sometimes you'll be running something at constant current and want to limit the voltage across it; for that, you fold the curent back to keep from exceeding the max voltage. Sometimes you'll be running something at constant voltage and want to limit the current through it; for that, you fold the voltage back to keep from exceeding the max current. In the extreme case, you cut the voltage across, or current through, a device off by putting a short across the PS output. We had some lab PSes at the NASA Manned Spacecraft Center with adjustable voltage _and_ current limits, though none with high-capacity crowbars involving ignitrons, hydrogen thyratrons, and such (to me) exotic devices. But both voltage and current limits came in very handy. -- Mike Andrews, W5EGO Tired old sysadmin |
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