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RFI from Switched power supply
Hi all,
I have the (incredible fast and reliable) Verizon fiber optic into the house for my internet connection. So far so good. However at the access point there is a battery backup unit for the fiber-Copper converter. This battery unit is kept charged by a powersupply that makes an ENOURMOUS amount of RFI that radiates onto the (15 feet) lead into the unit and from there into the shack. (S6) Does anybody have any suggestions on how to silence this? Or... a suggestion for a cheap and 'quiet' powersupply? (It's output is a regular 12v) 73 Rob KE7KZN |
RFI from Switched power supply
wrote ...
I have the (incredible fast and reliable) Verizon fiber optic into the house for my internet connection. So far so good. However at the access point there is a battery backup unit for the fiber-Copper converter. This battery unit is kept charged by a powersupply that makes an ENOURMOUS amount of RFI that radiates onto the (15 feet) lead into the unit and from there into the shack. (S6) Does anybody have any suggestions on how to silence this? Or... a suggestion for a cheap and 'quiet' powersupply? (It's output is a regular 12v) You could likely find a linear (old-fashioned 60Hz transformer) "wall-wart" power supply at Radio Shack (and the appropriate connector/adapter to fit your equipment). I have FIOS in my neighborhood, but haven't signed up yet. I'm going to give up waiting for the WiMax broadband wireless network service and just go with FIOS. Richard KE7GKP (down the street at Intel) |
RFI from Switched power supply
In article . com,
wrote: Hi all, I have the (incredible fast and reliable) Verizon fiber optic into the house for my internet connection. So far so good. However at the access point there is a battery backup unit for the fiber-Copper converter. This battery unit is kept charged by a powersupply that makes an ENOURMOUS amount of RFI that radiates onto the (15 feet) lead into the unit and from there into the shack. (S6) Does anybody have any suggestions on how to silence this? Or... a suggestion for a cheap and 'quiet' powersupply? (It's output is a regular 12v) You could try ferrite beads on the wires. YMMV. Or just bitch to Verizon. -- Rich Greenberg N Ft Myers, FL, USA richgr atsign panix.com + 1 239 543 1353 Eastern time. N6LRT I speak for myself & my dogs only. VM'er since CP-67 Canines:Val, Red, Shasta & Casey (RIP), Red & Zero, Siberians Owner:Chinook-L Retired at the beach Asst Owner:Sibernet-L |
RFI from Switched power supply
On 28 Feb 2007 14:30:08 -0500, Richard Crowley wrote in :
wrote ... I have the (incredible fast and reliable) Verizon fiber optic into the house for my internet connection. So far so good. However at the access point there is a battery backup unit for the fiber-Copper converter. This battery unit is kept charged by a powersupply that makes an ENOURMOUS amount of RFI that radiates onto the (15 feet) lead into the unit and from there into the shack. (S6) Does anybody have any suggestions on how to silence this? Or... a suggestion for a cheap and 'quiet' powersupply? (It's output is a regular 12v) You could likely find a linear (old-fashioned 60Hz transformer) "wall-wart" power supply at Radio Shack (and the appropriate connector/adapter to fit your equipment). I have FIOS in my neighborhood, but haven't signed up yet. I'm going to give up waiting for the WiMax broadband wireless network service and just go with FIOS. Seems to me that their power supply is interfering with a licensed service, and that it's Verizon's problem to solve. In addition, if you do anything to their hardware, however well-intentioned and skillful you are, you're giving them an excuse to blame any of your future problems on you. At least they *have* a battery backup for their FIOS. -- Mike Andrews, W5EGO Tired old sysadmin |
RFI from Switched power supply
Hi everyone:
"Mike Andrews" wrote in message ... On 28 Feb 2007 14:30:08 -0500, Richard Crowley wrote in : wrote ... I have the (incredible fast and reliable) Verizon fiber optic into the house for my internet connection. So far so good. However at the access point there is a battery backup unit for the fiber-Copper converter. This battery unit is kept charged by a powersupply that makes an ENOURMOUS amount of RFI that radiates onto the (15 feet) lead into the unit and from there into the shack. (S6) Does anybody have any suggestions on how to silence this? Or... a suggestion for a cheap and 'quiet' powersupply? (It's output is a regular 12v) Seems to me that their power supply is interfering with a licensed service, and that it's Verizon's problem to solve. In addition, if you do anything to their hardware, however well-intentioned and skillful you are, you're giving them an excuse to blame any of your future problems on you. I'm afraid I have to respectfully disagree Mike. While it's EASY to blame Verizon and accuse them of interfering with a licensed service, you're forgetting one thing. Their technicians, just like that of any major broadband provider (Be it Verizon, Time-Warner, Comcast, QWORST, etc),.ARE NOT trained to handle Ham Radio Operators as customers nor are they trained to customize the installation so it doesn't interfere with Amateur Radio. They are only required to troubleshoot (Or at least attempt to) problems with the equipment and/or anything it's connected to. If no problems exist within the equipment or anything it's connected to, then the problem(s) lie with the Ham station itself. That can only be corrected by the Ham. Richard....Did you do a full diagnostic on your station to see if the problem might somehow be in your Ham equipment that might be receiving excessive amounts of RF, thus causing the problem? At least they *have* a battery backup for their FIOS. This may be true Mike, but as I said IF the problem is not with the provider's equipment and/or anything it's connected to, then Richard is the one with the problem and only he can solve it. Verizon can't do a thing about problems with his Ham station because, again assuming there are no problems with Verizon's equipment or anything it's connected to, they're not responsible. Just my $.02 worth :D Cheers & 73 :D Pat Cook, KB0OXD Denver, Colorado WEBSITE - http://www.qsl.net/kb0oxd/ **NEW VIDEO SECTION - http://www.qsl.net/kb0oxd/cybershacktv/ |
RFI from Switched power supply
On 28 Feb 2007 22:58:35 -0500, Pat Cook wrote in :
Hi everyone: "Mike Andrews" wrote in message ... On 28 Feb 2007 14:30:08 -0500, Richard Crowley wrote in : wrote ... I have the (incredible fast and reliable) Verizon fiber optic into the house for my internet connection. So far so good. However at the access point there is a battery backup unit for the fiber-Copper converter. This battery unit is kept charged by a powersupply that makes an ENOURMOUS amount of RFI that radiates onto the (15 feet) lead into the unit and from there into the shack. (S6) Does anybody have any suggestions on how to silence this? Or... a suggestion for a cheap and 'quiet' powersupply? (It's output is a regular 12v) Seems to me that their power supply is interfering with a licensed service, and that it's Verizon's problem to solve. In addition, if you do anything to their hardware, however well-intentioned and skillful you are, you're giving them an excuse to blame any of your future problems on you. I'm afraid I have to respectfully disagree Mike. While it's EASY to blame Verizon and accuse them of interfering with a licensed service, you're forgetting one thing. Their technicians, just like that of any major broadband provider (Be it Verizon, Time-Warner, Comcast, QWORST, etc),.ARE NOT trained to handle Ham Radio Operators as customers nor are they trained to customize the installation so it doesn't interfere with Amateur Radio. They are only required to troubleshoot (Or at least attempt to) problems with the equipment and/or anything it's connected to. If no problems exist within the equipment or anything it's connected to, then the problem(s) lie with the Ham station itself. That can only be corrected by the Ham. Richard....Did you do a full diagnostic on your station to see if the problem might somehow be in your Ham equipment that might be receiving excessive amounts of RF, thus causing the problem? At least they *have* a battery backup for their FIOS. This may be true Mike, but as I said IF the problem is not with the provider's equipment and/or anything it's connected to, then Richard is the one with the problem and only he can solve it. Verizon can't do a thing about problems with his Ham station because, again assuming there are no problems with Verizon's equipment or anything it's connected to, they're not responsible. Just my $.02 worth :D "Assuming there's no problem with Verizon's equipment ... ." Richard wrote explicitly that there *was* something wrong with it -- that "his battery unit is kept charged by a powersupply that makes an ENOURMOUS amount of RFI that radiates onto the (15 feet) lead into the unit and from there into the shack. (S6)" Looks like it's not justifiable to assume that there's no problem with Verizon's equipment. Ah, but ... The FCC sends out enforcement letters to folks with noise generators -- unintentional radiators -- with some frequency. The ones I've seen have included fence chargers with problems, aquarium heaters, televisions that were leaking signal, power line transformers and insulators, and a great many more classes of sources. If it's Verizon's equipment, then it's Verizon's problem, and a letter to them -- outlining the problem and suggesting that they do something to fix it before a letter gets sent to the FCC -- probably should be sent. And, of course, it is not Richard's equipment, but Verizon's equipment. While their run-of-the-mill techs may not be qualified to deal with this, VZ will have some higher-level techs who *are* so qualified. VZ is *required* to not interfere, just as the folks with the aquarium heater, the folks with the bad fence chargers, the folks with the leaky TVs, and the folks operating the power transmission system are required to not interfere. The enforcement letters tell them what will happen if they continue to interfere, and it's generally pretty pricey. If the power supply is radiating enough to interfere, then it's also radiating enough that VZ is required to fix the problem. Whether they have techs trained to do so isn't germane to the issue; the FCC has in the past just told the folks responsible for the interference to stop it. Or else. Period. -- Mike Andrews, W5EGO Tired old sysadmin |
RFI from Switched power supply
Thanks guys!
I'm going to play with some filters and beads. See if that works first. I agree that it actually is Verizon's problem (and I will inform them when I can't get it resolved.) but I want to see if I can avoid the headace of trying to explain them the issue. $5 worth of filter/beads might not be so badly spend if it works. Oh by the way... found out that the powersupply is 48V! (my bad!) |
RFI from Switched power supply
On 1 Mar 2007 01:19:20 -0500, "Mike Andrews"
wrote: VZ is *required* to not interfere, just as the folks with the aquarium heater, the folks with the bad fence chargers, the folks with the leaky TVs, and the folks operating the power transmission system are required to not interfere. The enforcement letters tell them what will happen if they continue to interfere, and it's generally pretty pricey. And on a practical point, Verizon would rather spend the $100 in labor and $10 in equipment costs to solve the problem to avoid having their name "flagged" in regulatory enforcement files and have it pop up when they apply for something really important such as rule exemptions or rate increases! If it were me, I would run a good heavy fused lead to my 12V station battery and leave the charger unplugged and disconnected. That's something the average installation tech can understand. -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net |
RFI from Switched power supply
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RFI from Switched power supply
On Mar 1, 3:17 pm, Phil Kane wrote:
On 1 Mar 2007 03:18:49 -0500, wrote: Oh by the way... found out that the powersupply is 48V! (my bad!) Well, it won't work from a 12V battery then... g The only 48V supplies that I am used to are ones that take up, a whole wall in a communications vault...not quite the same! Wow.. I have FIOS here in Texas and I don't have excessive noise from it. 48 Volts? That seems strange because it has only a 12V battery for backup power. Are we sure that the problem is not the network wires or something else? I guess, I'm asking how did we determine that the power supply was the problem? (Aside from the fact that this is normally the problem..) -= Bob =- |
RFI from Switched power supply
Call Verizon and complain to get the problem fixed! The noise also may be
interfering with other people (for example, short-wave radio listeners) who, because they don't have technical knowledge like you, wouldn't have a clue what's causing all the noise. On 1 Mar 2007 03:18:49 -0500, wrote: Thanks guys! I'm going to play with some filters and beads. See if that works first. I agree that it actually is Verizon's problem (and I will inform them when I can't get it resolved.) but I want to see if I can avoid the headace of trying to explain them the issue. $5 worth of filter/beads might not be so badly spend if it works. Oh by the way... found out that the powersupply is 48V! (my bad!) 73 de Dick, AC7EL |
RFI from Switched power supply
On Feb 28, 1:26 pm, wrote:
I have the (incredible fast and reliable) Verizon fiber optic into the house for my internet connection. So far so good. However at the access point there is a battery backup unit for the fiber-Copper converter. This battery unit is kept charged by a powersupply that makes an ENOURMOUS amount of RFI that radiates onto the (15 feet) lead into the unit and from there into the shack. (S6) Does anybody have any suggestions on how to silence this? Or... a suggestion for a cheap and 'quiet' powersupply? (It's output is a regular 12v) Over the years, I have seen a number of posts that cite strong RFI from various sources. In most cases, where I have obtained a unit and made measurements, the units have complied with the FCC limits. Most of these devices are switchmode power supplies. In the US, because they intentionally generate signals above 9 kHz internally, they are classified as unintentional emitters and must meet the FCC Part 15 conducteed emissions limits below 30 MHz and the radiated emissions limits above 30 MHz. (The premise is that on HF, small chasses don't radiate much, while the wires they are connected to do.) Unless they are used as part of a computer system, they are "verified" as described in the Part 15 rules. This means that the manufacturer is required to test them and keep the results on file. Switchmode power supplies used in computers are authorized under a Declaration of Conformity (tested by the manufacturer as verified devices, but only by labs the FCC has approved) or, rarely nowadays, under certification, where the manufacturer sends test data to the FCC, which then authorizes the product. The manufacturer must meet the limits and authorization requirements; the operator of the device is responsible for harmful interference. In most of the interference reports I have seen, someone is interfering with themselves. If the device meets the FCC rules, and it is likely that it does, the FCC not, of course, offer much sympathy. The premise that boxes don't radiate much on HF, but wires do, points to the cure. The easiest thing to try is a common-mode choke on the wires going to and from the box. Below 30 MHz, ferrite beads usually don't have enough inductance to function well as ferrites. You will need to get a toroidal core that is big enough to pass the connector(s) through, and wrap about 10 turns of wire onto it. For lower HF, -73, -75, -77 or -J material is probably best. For upper HF, I would use -43. The nomenclature of most cores sold to hams has the size in the first part of the part number and the material in the second part. For example, an F-240-43 core has an outer diameter of 2.4 inches and uses -43 material. That may solve the problem, but with a switch-mode supply, it is likely that differntial-mode noise is also being coupled onto the line. For that, you need a "brute-force" AC-line filter that uses inductors and capacitors. I don't know if is still a good number, but Radio Shack's catalog # 15-1111 is a suitable filter. Others are sold by Industrial Communications Engineers (http:// www.iceradioproducts.com/). You may need a combination of brute-force and common-mode filtering. 73, Ed Hare, W1RFI ARRL Lab |
RFI from Switched power supply
Oh, one other point I wanted to make.
Typically, from the house next door, a device that complies with Part 15 will be about S7 on HF. If hams know of devices that are significantly louder than that, I would like to test them. If you can, provide me with a model number and source and/or the unit itself, which I can return to you. Ed Hare, 225 Main St Newington, CT 06111 Tel: 860-594-0318 |
RFI from Switched power supply
"Ed Hare, W1RFI" wrote in news:1173461308.258188.233550
@t69g2000cwt.googlegroups.com: Oh, one other point I wanted to make. Typically, from the house next door, a device that complies with Part 15 will be about S7 on HF. If hams know of devices that are significantly louder than that, I would like to test them. If you can, provide me with a model number and source and/or the unit itself, which I can return to you. Ed Hare, 225 Main St Newington, CT 06111 Tel: 860-594-0318 One of the loudest sources of RFI I ever had was a UPS that almost oblitereated the AM radio band making it near impossible to tune an old 5- tube 'all american' style GE receiver. When I localized the source it quickly became misc. parts never to bother me again. Sorry I can't send it to you to play with. cheers, chuck... |
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