On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 13:46:42 EDT, Michael Coslo wrote:

At one point a lot of husband and wife teams got their licenses and
used local repeaters to call each other at lunchtime or on the way home
from work in order to exchange info on say stopping off at the grocery
store to pick up something for dinner, or at the hardware store to pick
up something.

Hence the name "Honey, do this, Honey, do that. 8^)

We used to call that "The Kenny and Michelle Show" in honor of the
stars of that on our repeater... g
--

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon

e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net

Michael Coslo wrote:
Klystron wrote:

[...]

I would suggest that you start the process of forming a new organization.

I would respectfully suggest that you might think about omitting
statements about the obsolescence of Morse code. Give some consideration
to your statement:

It was inexcusably slow to accept the obsolescence of Morse code and,
in the process, its curmudgeonly foot dragging alienated most of its
potential future members.

You are alienating the users of the mode - who are also more likely to
be Active Hams, IMO. As well as those of us who are presumably at least
somewhat satisfied with the ARRL's performance, witness our continued
writing of dues checks.

After all is said and done, your task is to organize a group that
includes inactive Hams, disinterested Hams, Hams who are content to
make use of the ARRL's benefits without getting involved personally, and
those who are frugally noncommittal to the whole thing.

[...]

I do not mind offending the old-timers who are living in the past
and struggling to hold ham radio captive (they have never minded
offending new or future hams). The future of ham radio is likely to
include digital (possibly D-star, possibly others). It is likely to make
extensive use of computers and the Internet. It is just not likely to
include much along the lines of Morse. The Morse zealots have already
lost the fight for the issue that means the most to them - code testing.
The reduction of the dedicated CW segments is probably a harbinger of
things to come. My guess is that they know (and have always known) that
anything that Morse can do, digital can do better. For that reason, they
have fought to stop digital (I remember when it was dismissed and
disparaged as wideband "pulse").
Do this simple calculation: multiply what you consider to be a good
sending rate in words per minute by the number of letters in a word by 7
(there are 7 bits to an ASCII character). The result will be bits per
minute. Divide that by 60 to get bits per second. The result will be
quite laughable. I have seen people throw in the garbage old modems that
were capable of 1,000 times that speed.

As far as starting a new organization by myself is concerned, I have
started a small business, a political action committee and an Internet
users group. Be careful what you ask for; you just might get it. My
guess is that a new group could be started in a single region and then
bootstrapped into a national organization, within five to ten years.
The obvious constituency would be people who would, more or less,
agree with my (admittedly inflammatory) comments above. I would make no
attempt to capture the telegraph key cohort of the ARRL, but the more
progressive members might change sides. Nevertheless, people who are
dissatisfied with an existing organization are always the greatest asset
of a new or rival organization. The prospect of offending the core
loyalists of the old group is just not an issue.

Klystron wrote:

As far as starting a new organization by myself is concerned, I have
started a small business, a political action committee and an Internet
users group. Be careful what you ask for; you just might get it. My
guess is that a new group could be started in a single region and then
bootstrapped into a national organization, within five to ten years.

Well there ya go! I wish you success. If I could offer a little advice,
it would be that it is time to get a name here. I can understand
anonymity, but if you are going to be a leader, you'll need to be known.


My whole point in this discussion has been that too many Hams spend way
too much time complaining, some to the extent that they are unpleasant
to be around. Then they don't do anything.

Thunder is impressive, but it is lightning that does the work.

- 73 de Mike KB3EIA -

Hi everyone:
"Jim Higgins" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 04:55:42 EDT, Klystron wrote:

Jim Higgins wrote:

We already have a membership organization so what you must be talking
about is a different membership organization that appeals to a
different set of members. So... exactly which different set of
members would that be?


75% of all hams are NOT members of the ARRL. I'd start with them.


Why start with them? First of all most aren't even active. Secondly,
which of their primary interests would you cater to that would cause
them to join your new organization when they don't join ARRL?

What would your new organization offer that ARRL doesn't offer and
that would cause them to join other than it isn't the ARRL?

Offered as an example, not as a point of debate,

I'd offer it as a point of debate Jim (Curiously of course ). What
*would* your new organization offer that ARRL & the many, many other
worldwide clubs don't already offer, Klystron & Iitoi?

I'm a member of one of the local clubs here in Denver. I'm also one of
those hams who IS NOT a member of ARRL itself. It's NOT because I don't
want to be. It's just that, with a fixed income, if I were to go pluncking
down PRECIOUS $$$ left and right for each and every organization covering
each and every interest of mine, I'd not only go insane, but I'd also GO
BROKE. As such, I have to ask myself WHERE DOES IT END? I don't *need* QST
Magazine to keep me updated on the world of Amateur Radio. Besides...Quite
frankly, compared to Newsline and ARRL Audio News & the ARRL Newsletter,
ANYTHING in QST Magazine would be DATED INFORMATION by the time I got it
anyway.

True, ARRL does do some valuable things for the Amateur Radio Service and
since I *am* a validly licensed Ham, they *do* represent me in various
political and legal capacities (For which I am eternally grateful BTW), I
still see a reason to join them if they're going to represent me anyway.
They know my position on various issues because much the same sentiment is
shared by SCORES of Hams like me. And many of those Hams have made their
sentiments public. I don't need to submit what would sound like a broken
record in the eyes of ARRL because they've heard it many times before.

Well...I could go on and on, but I think you get the idea. So I ask
again....What *would* your new organization offer that ARRL & the many, many
other worldwide clubs don't already offer, Klystron & Iitoi? I'm really
curious.

Cheers & 73

Pat Cook, KB0OXD
Denver, Colorado
WEBSITE - http://www.qsl.net/kb0oxd/
**NEW VIDEO SECTION - http://www.qsl.net/kb0oxd/cybershacktv/

"Pat Cook" wrote:

I'd offer it as a point of debate Jim (Curiously of course ). What
*would* your new organization offer that ARRL & the many, many other
worldwide clubs don't already offer, Klystron & Iitoi?


The objective would be to provide an organization to those hams who
wish to make ham radio innovative and progressive (again). By
comparison, the ARRL exists to serve those hams who wish to keep ham
radio retrogressive, insular and xenophobic. Certain technologies would
be championed (digital voice, digital data, e.g.) while other
technologies would be abandoned to their fate (Morse).


I'm a member of one of the local clubs here in Denver. I'm also one of
those hams who IS NOT a member of ARRL itself. It's NOT because I don't
want to be. It's just that, with a fixed income, if I were to go pluncking
down PRECIOUS $$$ left and right for each and every organization covering
each and every interest of mine, I'd not only go insane, but I'd also GO
BROKE. As such, I have to ask myself WHERE DOES IT END? I don't *need* QST
Magazine to keep me updated on the world of Amateur Radio. Besides...Quite
frankly, compared to Newsline and ARRL Audio News & the ARRL Newsletter,
ANYTHING in QST Magazine would be DATED INFORMATION by the time I got it
anyway.

True, ARRL does do some valuable things for the Amateur Radio Service and
since I *am* a validly licensed Ham, they *do* represent me in various
political and legal capacities (For which I am eternally grateful BTW), I
still see a reason to join them if they're going to represent me anyway.
They know my position on various issues because much the same sentiment is
shared by SCORES of Hams like me. And many of those Hams have made their
sentiments public. I don't need to submit what would sound like a broken
record in the eyes of ARRL because they've heard it many times before.


If you look at those organizations that are EFFECTIVE in representing
their members and advancing the members' agenda (NRA, teachers' union,
tobacco lobby, trade associations that represent defense contractors,
etc.), certain patterns emerge, regardless of the nature of the
organization or the type of agenda. Such organizations tend to be
politically astute when dealing with government. They use PAC's, they
organize letter writing campaigns, they advise their members on the
voting records of their elected officials, they can deliver votes in
support of those who help them and in support of the OPPONENTS of those
who oppose them. Further, such constituencies often have MULTIPLE
organizations that pursue their agenda separately and with varying
levels of militancy (you will recall the fiasco when the NRA tried to
pull even with its more militant rivals by speaking of "jackbooted
thugs," which was a rare misstep by private-sector Beltway insiders). By
comparison, the ARRL's approach of being the FCC's lapdog is laughable.
If we haven't lost as much spectrum as we might have, it is certainly
not the result of astute lobbying.


Well...I could go on and on, but I think you get the idea. So I ask
again....What *would* your new organization offer that ARRL & the many, many
other worldwide clubs don't already offer, Klystron & Iitoi? I'm really
curious.


Long story short: Once upon a time, hams were viewed as 'rocket
scientists' and were a force for progress and innovation. Now, they're
viewed as cranky old geezers who are living in the past and pounding
Samuel Morse' old telegraph key while whining about young
whippersnappers who don't respect their elders. A new organization would
break free of that past and move forward. It goes without saying that
ARRL types will not want this and will try to stop it.

Klystron wrote in
:

"Pat Cook" wrote:

I'd offer it as a point of debate Jim (Curiously of course ). What
*would* your new organization offer that ARRL & the many, many other
worldwide clubs don't already offer, Klystron & Iitoi?


The objective would be to provide an organization to those hams who
wish to make ham radio innovative and progressive (again). By
comparison, the ARRL exists to serve those hams who wish to keep ham
radio retrogressive, insular and xenophobic. Certain technologies
would be championed (digital voice, digital data, e.g.) while other
technologies would be abandoned to their fate (Morse).

Now that you have made the rather strong claims, will you be able
to provide some evidence? If you start your organization, you'll be asked
to "prove it" by people who will be a lot less kindly than me.

What are some examples of ARRL catering to retrogressive Hams?

ARRL caters to a large and varied group of Hams. While some issues
deal with vintage radio, others deal with antennas, all kinds of
subjects.

Some examples of catering to insular Hams?

ARRL is constantly experimenting with methods to attract new blood.
I've used some of the material to attract new Ham in my area. I couldn't
disagree more with your assertion. The results are a 2 percent growth in
our area.

Some examples of Xenophobia?


I really don't know how to approach this one.


If you look at those organizations that are EFFECTIVE in
representing their members and advancing the members' agenda (NRA,
teachers' union,
tobacco lobby, trade associations that represent defense contractors,
etc.), certain patterns emerge,

snip


What is your fund raising approach? All of those groups have some
pretty deep pockets. You are going to have to raise a lot of money in
order to operate as they do. There are 625,000 of us, and with all due
respect, you're present approach alienates a lot of them. So you are
going to have to generate those funds from say 300.00 people tops;
probably a lot less.



Well...I could go on and on, but I think you get the idea. So I ask
again....What *would* your new organization offer that ARRL & the
many, many other worldwide clubs don't already offer, Klystron &
Iitoi? I'm really curious.


Long story short: Once upon a time, hams were viewed as 'rocket
scientists' and were a force for progress and innovation. Now, they're
viewed as cranky old geezers who are living in the past and pounding
Samuel Morse' old telegraph key while whining about young
whippersnappers who don't respect their elders. A new organization
would break free of that past and move forward. It goes without saying
that ARRL types will not want this and will try to stop it.

Might I respectfully suggest that you are engaging is some serious
profiling? In addition, some proof would go a long way to advance your
argument.

I haven't been able to find any evidence of ARRL's "serving" of the
amateurs you've mentioned above. The closest thing to it is on the QST
opinion pages, and people are entitled to their opinions. A look at their
web pages doesn't show any evidence of what you are accusing them of, nor
does their magazine.

I haven't found anyone with the opinion that Hams are "cranky old
geezers who are living in the past and pounding Samuel Morse' old
telegraph key while whining about young whippersnappers who don't respect
their elders" except for certain Hams who have an axe to grind, for
whatever reason. The general public doesn't have much of an idea about us
one way or the other IMO.

- 73 de Mike KB3EIA -

On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 07:49:18 EDT, Klystron wrote:

Long story short: Once upon a time, hams were viewed as 'rocket
scientists' and were a force for progress and innovation. Now, they're
viewed as cranky old geezers who are living in the past and pounding
Samuel Morse' old telegraph key while whining about young
whippersnappers who don't respect their elders. A new organization would
break free of that past and move forward. It goes without saying that
ARRL types will not want this and will try to stop it.

Why, when I read stuff like this, and I reminded of Robert Heinlein's
classic short story "The Roads Must Roll" ? (If you are not familiar
with it, READ IT before your next posting.)

This "cranky old geezer" was licensed with that call sign since 1952
and is on the air daily with HF and VHF digital data and voice while a
WW-II J-38 telegraph key sits next to a modern kit-built HF SSB and
data transmitter with all the bells and whistles. I've mentored more
hams than I can think of and have testified for and represented quite
a number of hams in hearings and court trials over their right to
operate their stations.

None of that would have happened without the ARRL teaching me, helping
me, and backing me. None of it.

"Cranky old geezer" ? Hardly. And there's a lot more folks like me
out there.

If you think that the League is "static" then you aren't looking in
the right places. It's your problem, not the League's.
--
73 de K2ASP -- Phil Kane
k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net

ARRL Life Member
ARRL Volunteer Counsel
ARRL Volunteer Consulting Engineer
ARRL Northwest Division Assistant Director
Trustee of several radio club stations

"Phil Kane" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 07:49:18 EDT, Klystron wrote:

Long story short: Once upon a time, hams were viewed as 'rocket
scientists' and were a force for progress and innovation. Now, they're
viewed as cranky old geezers who are living in the past and pounding
Samuel Morse' old telegraph key while whining about young
whippersnappers who don't respect their elders. A new organization would
break free of that past and move forward. It goes without saying that
ARRL types will not want this and will try to stop it.


If you think that the League is "static" then you aren't looking in
the right places. It's your problem, not the League's.
--
73 de K2ASP -- Phil Kane
k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net

ARRL Life Member
ARRL Volunteer Counsel
ARRL Volunteer Consulting Engineer
ARRL Northwest Division Assistant Director
Trustee of several radio club stations


LEAGUE CITES MEMBERSHIP GROWTH

Thee ARRL Letter says that its membership in the
League is up and the trend is toward continued
growth. Customer Service Manager Amy Hurtado, KB1NXO,
says the League now has close to 152,000 members.

Hurtado credits the rise in membership in part to
the FCC rule changes earlier this year that
eliminated Morse code testing for the General and
Amateur Extra license classes. She says that
since more people are upgrading their licenses as
a result of there being no Morse code
requirement, the League is now successfully able
to show them the benefits of being an ARRL member.
73, Ace - WH2T


..

"Klystron" wrote:

The objective would be to provide an organization to those hams who
wish to make ham radio innovative and progressive (again). By
comparison, the ARRL exists to serve those hams who wish to keep ham
radio retrogressive, insular and xenophobic. Certain technologies would
be championed (digital voice, digital data, e.g.) while other
technologies would be abandoned to their fate (Morse).

From my viewpoint of this discussion, what it really seems like you are
championing is an organization consisting of people who hate morse code.

That's ok, I guess, but I think you should simply be upfront and honest
about it, by calling it the "We hate Morse Code Ham Radio Society", rather
than attempting to veil it in bogus atruistic poppycock.



It goes without saying that
ARRL types will not want this and will try to stop it.

I suppose it is easier to blame your own failure on others, rather than
acknowledge the fact that your idea is faulty from the onset.

kh6hz

Hi everyone:
"Klystron" wrote in message
...
"Pat Cook" wrote:

I'd offer it as a point of debate Jim (Curiously of course ). What
*would* your new organization offer that ARRL & the many, many other
worldwide clubs don't already offer, Klystron & Iitoi?


The objective would be to provide an organization to those hams who
wish to make ham radio innovative and progressive (again). By
comparison, the ARRL exists to serve those hams who wish to keep ham
radio retrogressive, insular and xenophobic. Certain technologies would
be championed (digital voice, digital data, e.g.) while other
technologies would be abandoned to their fate (Morse).

Okay, so it's true they were somewhat relunctant to allow digital
communications such as, and perhaps namely, packet to take place on the
bands. But look what's happened in the end. Not only have digital
communications become an acceptable form of communications (Thankfully
spearheaded by the work of TAPR BTW), digital communications have been
EMBRACED as a means of PROMOTING Amateur Radio. When was the last time you
proudly told someone that you can work the International Space Station? My
last time was just this afternoon while on the bus enroute back home from
the "candy store" (Hi...Hi).

True, ARRL does do some valuable things for the Amateur Radio Service and
since I *am* a validly licensed Ham, they *do* represent me in various
political and legal capacities (For which I am eternally grateful BTW), I
still see a reason to join them if they're going to represent me anyway.
They know my position on various issues because much the same sentiment
is
shared by SCORES of Hams like me. And many of those Hams have made their
sentiments public. I don't need to submit what would sound like a broken
record in the eyes of ARRL because they've heard it many times before.


If you look at those organizations that are EFFECTIVE in representing
their members and advancing the members' agenda (NRA, teachers' union,
tobacco lobby, trade associations that represent defense contractors,
etc.), certain patterns emerge, regardless of the nature of the
organization or the type of agenda. Such organizations tend to be
politically astute when dealing with government. They use PAC's, they
organize letter writing campaigns, they advise their members on the
voting records of their elected officials, they can deliver votes in
support of those who help them and in support of the OPPONENTS of those
who oppose them.

That's because ARRL *IS* a PAC (And a SIG). I doubt ARRL denies that.

Well...I could go on and on, but I think you get the idea. So I ask
again....What *would* your new organization offer that ARRL & the many,
many
other worldwide clubs don't already offer, Klystron & Iitoi? I'm really
curious.

Long story short: Once upon a time, hams were viewed as 'rocket
scientists' and were a force for progress and innovation. Now, they're
viewed as cranky old geezers who are living in the past and pounding
Samuel Morse' old telegraph key while whining about young
whippersnappers who don't respect their elders. A new organization would
break free of that past and move forward. It goes without saying that
ARRL types will not want this and will try to stop it.

*SOME* ARRL types. Not all.

And despite your efforts to "break free" from ARRL, you will ALWAYS have
members who will gleefully rush out to their mailbox to retrieve that shiny
new edition of QST each month. And there's NO WAY you will EVER be able to
stop that.

Just my honest opinion....

Cheers & 73

Pat Cook, KB0OXD
Denver, Colorado
WEBSITE - http://www.qsl.net/kb0oxd/
**NEW VIDEO SECTION - http://www.qsl.net/kb0oxd/cybershacktv/