Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #51   Report Post  
Old October 26th 07, 09:08 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.moderated
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Jan 2007
Posts: 300
Default Forty Years Licensed

On Fri, 26 Oct 2007 14:34:11 EDT, Michael Coslo wrote:

At least with the band plans, the better question for the test would be
to see if the testee knew where to look them up.


Another approach would be to have a sample chart with the segments
labeled by their emission designators, such as A1A or J3E, and ask for
the segment allowed to Phone or Morse, or Data, etc.

This would be independent of "real life" band plans or regulations,
which are subject to frequent changes, and would test another phase
of the knowledge of The Compleat Ham.

The California Bar Exam does just that - they give you a set of laws
and a fact pattern and you have to write something - an argument, a
petition, etc based on those, not on "real life" which can be
something different depending on the latest court cases.
--

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest

Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon

e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net

  #52   Report Post  
Old October 26th 07, 09:53 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.moderated
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Jul 2006
Posts: 877
Default Forty Years Licensed

On Oct 26, 2:34 pm, Michael Coslo wrote:
AF6AY wrote:
Out of 120 questions, I missed 6 (counting the marks made by the
VEC team leader) and am sure that 5 of those were on certain
regulations like bandplan numbers and satellite operation.


The bandplan frequencies and satellite operations are a real issue with
me. I always thought that better questions were available, since like
you note, you look at a chart. I do too.

At least with the band plans, the better question for the test would be
to see if the testee knew where to look them up.

With all due respect, I think there's a bit of terminology confusion
here.

In amateur radio use, "bandplan" refers to voluntary, suggested usage
of frequencies,
not regulations. For example, AM operation on 75 meters centers around
3885 kHz
even though it is legal (for Region 2 Extras) to use AM anywhere from
3600 to 4000 kHz (as
long as the sidebands are inside those limits).

"Subbands" refers to the frequency limits in the regulations
themselves, by mode, class of license,
or both.

For example, 'phone modes are not allowed from 3500 to 3600 kHz for
any class of FCC-licensed
radio amateur in Region 2. That CW/data-only subband is part of the
regulations, not the bandplan.
Or the rule that only Extras can use 3500 to 3525 kHz, etc. -
regulations, not bandplan.

Yes, some hams do use the term "bandplan" to refer to the regulations.
But doing so leads
to confusion, because the term usually means voluntary agreements, not
regulations. Why
not use the term that most clearly expresses the concept?

On 160 meters there are no subbands by mode or license class, but
there is a bandplan!
Same for 30 meters.

The problem with removing direct questions on the regs is that such an
approach has a
proven record of not working as a regulatory tool. Back when FCC
licensed cb users,
the license form required a signed statement that the licensee had
read the regulations,
understood them, and would follow them to the letter. Compliance with
the regulations
for that radio service turned out to be less than FCC anticipated,
however.

Putting specific questions on the regs in the tests is one way of
saying that knowing those
regs is important for all hams. If they are replaced by questions
about "where do you look
up the band edges" or some such, why can't the whole exam be replaced
by such questions?



73 de Jim, N2EY

  #53   Report Post  
Old October 27th 07, 06:12 AM posted to rec.radio.amateur.moderated
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Mar 2007
Posts: 229
Default Forty Years Licensed

Michael Coslo posted on Fri, 26 Oct 2007 14:34:11 EDT

AF6AY wrote:
Out of 120 questions, I missed 6 (counting the marks made by the
VEC team leader) and am sure that 5 of those were on certain
regulations like bandplan numbers and satellite operation. That was
satisfactory to me with 95 percent correct. I've got a little chart
of bandplans and don't expect to get to outer space to operate
satellites. :-)


Hi Len,

The bandplan frequencies and satellite operations are a real issue with
me. I always thought that better questions were available, since like
you note, you look at a chart. I do too.


Mike, I agree with you but don't see it as anything worth arguing
about.

At least with the band plans, the better question for the test would be
to see if the testee knew where to look them up.


That could be a solution. I'm still wondering about all those space
questions, though. Like there's not going to be many DXepiditions
to earth orbit specifically for radio amateurs.. :-)

73, Len AF6AY


  #54   Report Post  
Old October 27th 07, 06:13 AM posted to rec.radio.amateur.moderated
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Mar 2007
Posts: 229
Default Forty Years Licensed

Phil Kane posted on Fri, 26 Oct 2007 16:08:04 EDT

On Fri, 26 Oct 2007 14:34:11 EDT, Michael Coslo wrote:
At least with the band plans, the better question for the test would be
to see if the testee knew where to look them up.


Another approach would be to have a sample chart with the segments
labeled by their emission designators, such as A1A or J3E, and ask for
the segment allowed to Phone or Morse, or Data, etc.

This would be independent of "real life" band plans or regulations,
which are subject to frequent changes, and would test another phase
of the knowledge of The Compleat Ham.


"Compleat Ham?" :-) 'Armour plated?' Or Farmer John? :-)

The California Bar Exam does just that - they give you a set of laws
and a fact pattern and you have to write something - an argument, a
petition, etc based on those, not on "real life" which can be
something different depending on the latest court cases.


With all due respect, Phil, a Bar Examination is for a professional
license, not an amateur radio license. No one is expecting the
theory part to be taken from a state Professional Engineer license,
yet that would be as applicable in the same sense, yes?.

While there is so much hoo-hah about 'privatization' of amateur
radio examinations, the NCVEC are all composed of licensed
amateurs. They seem to have done good in the last two
decades and one can communicate with them about what
should be the questions. Could anyone but the FCC discuss
things about the FCC amateur radio test questions before
privatization? I ask because I was unaware that there was any
possibility of suggesting anything about that before privatization.

73, Len AF6AY

  #55   Report Post  
Old October 27th 07, 08:56 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.moderated
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Jan 2007
Posts: 300
Default Forty Years Licensed

On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 01:13:50 EDT, AF6AY wrote:

With all due respect, Phil, a Bar Examination is for a professional
license, not an amateur radio license. No one is expecting the
theory part to be taken from a state Professional Engineer license,
yet that would be as applicable in the same sense, yes?.


I wasn't referring to the content level, but to the process of using
and applying "given" information rather than "memory guesses".
--

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest

Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon

e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net



  #56   Report Post  
Old October 27th 07, 09:52 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.moderated
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Jan 2007
Posts: 300
Default Forty Years Licensed

On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 01:13:50 EDT, AF6AY wrote:

Could anyone but the FCC discuss
things about the FCC amateur radio test questions before
privatization? I ask because I was unaware that there was any
possibility of suggesting anything about that before privatization.


In real life the FCC exams were mode up by engineers who were
knowledgeable in the fields being tested. I myself wrote several
questions on television standards and measurements for the
Radiotelephone First Class License revision in 1972. The questions
on the amateur exams were composed by staff engineers who were active
amateurs.

Yes, there was a provision for input from the "outside" by writing a
letter to the Examinations and Licensing Branch of the Field
Operations Bureau with the suggestions. This was not a "secret"
process, either, because lots of such letters were received and
reviewed by the committee that was responsible for examination
revisions. Some suggestions were accepted, others were rejected.

My gripe with privatization is that these are functions that should be
done by the FCC, not by others. Dumping them on someone else is not
the proper way to solve the problems that existed.
--

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest

Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon

e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net

  #57   Report Post  
Old October 29th 07, 06:19 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.moderated
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Jun 2006
Posts: 828
Default Forty Years Licensed

wrote:
On Oct 26, 2:34 pm, Michael Coslo wrote:
AF6AY wrote:
Out of 120 questions, I missed 6 (counting the marks made by the
VEC team leader) and am sure that 5 of those were on certain
regulations like bandplan numbers and satellite operation.


The bandplan frequencies and satellite operations are a real issue with
me. I always thought that better questions were available, since like
you note, you look at a chart. I do too.

At least with the band plans, the better question for the test would be
to see if the testee knew where to look them up.

With all due respect, I think there's a bit of terminology confusion
here.


Thanks for the correction Jim. I should have stated that what I don't
like on the tests is questions about what particular frequencies you are
allowed to operate on by your class.

Putting specific questions on the regs in the tests is one way of
saying that knowing those
regs is important for all hams. If they are replaced by questions
about "where do you look up the band edges" or some such, why can't the
whole exam be replaced by such questions?



That is kind of slippery sloping my point. Knowing that we are supposed
to ID at certain intervals, or what a wavelength is, or what unit is
used to describe electrical power (all questions from the Technicians
test) are things that require some knowledge, and simply knowing where
to look them up would be troublesome and time consuming in a real time
situation if one had no knowledge of what they were - or even what, in
which case knowing would not be possible.

While printing out that nice little chart from ARRL and posting it by
the rig is simple to the point, and can be looked at before transmitting
to make sure you are within the limits.

Of course taking into account the bandwidth of the transmitted signal,
another question that would be better on the test than the simple
statement of frequencies.


- 73 d eMike KB3EIA -

  #58   Report Post  
Old October 29th 07, 11:58 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.moderated
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Jul 2006
Posts: 618
Default Forty Years Licensed


"Michael Coslo" wrote in message
...
[snip]
Thanks for the correction Jim. I should have stated that what I don't like
on the tests is questions about what particular frequencies you are
allowed to operate on by your class.


Yet there are times such as mobile or portable operation that we don't have
that band chart with us. So it's nice to know our frequencies.


Of course taking into account the bandwidth of the transmitted signal,
another question that would be better on the test than the simple
statement of frequencies.


I definitely agree that this should be a possible test question as one can
be out of band simply due to the width of the signal. A lot of people don't
understand this until they get "dinged" so to speak. When I teach a class,
I try to emphasize this.

Dee, N8UZE


  #59   Report Post  
Old October 31st 07, 06:49 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.moderated
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Oct 2007
Posts: 64
Default Forty Years Licensed


"Dee Flint" wrote in message
...

"Michael Coslo" wrote in message
...
[snip]
Thanks for the correction Jim. I should have stated that what I don't
like on the tests is questions about what particular frequencies you are
allowed to operate on by your class.


Yet there are times such as mobile or portable operation that we don't
have that band chart with us. So it's nice to know our frequencies.


how many mobiles will premit out of band op Dee? none of mine will

only on HF can this be an issue since only hthere does the rules contiue the
insanity ofparts of bands to deferent class (amoug the classes we still
issue)


Of course taking into account the bandwidth of the transmitted signal,
another question that would be better on the test than the simple
statement of frequencies.


I definitely agree that this should be a possible test question as one can
be out of band simply due to the width of the signal. A lot of people
don't understand this until they get "dinged" so to speak. When I teach a
class, I try to emphasize this.


I thought it was such a question

Dee, N8UZE




  #60   Report Post  
Old October 31st 07, 07:13 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.moderated
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Feb 2007
Posts: 51
Default Forty Years Licensed

"konstans" wrote in message

: : "Dee Flint" wrote in message
: : ...
: : :
: : : "Michael Coslo" wrote in message
: : : ...
: : : : [snip]
: : : : Thanks for the correction Jim. I should have stated
: : : : that what I don't like on the tests is questions
: : : : about what particular frequencies you are allowed
: : : : to operate on by your class.
: : : :
: : :
: : : Yet there are times such as mobile or portable
: : : operation that we don't have that band chart with us.
: : : So it's nice to know our frequencies.
: :
: : how many mobiles will premit out of band op Dee? none
: : of mine will

They can be programmed or modified to.

For example my Icom IC-V82 2m handie will transmit anywhere from 136-174
MHz. This was apparently necessary to allow it to operate on the US 2m
band 144-148 MHz. Here in Region 1 (UK) we only have 144-146 on 2m so so
in order to keep the warranty intact, I asked the importers to modify it
for the US band when I bought it, as I travel there on holiday regularly.
They told me that opening it up to 134-174 was the only way it could be
done, apparently the firmware in US versions that cover 144-148 only is
different.


73 Ivor G6URP

Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
shorty forty (G5RV) little brother george tibbetts Antenna 1 January 11th 06 05:41 AM
FA: FORTY(40) NOS HITACHI J56 POWER MOSFET TRANSISTORS T-03 cooltube Equipment 0 May 17th 05 04:55 PM
FA: FORTY(40) NOS HITACHI J56 POWER MOSFET TRANSISTORS>T-03 [email protected] Equipment 0 May 16th 05 03:08 AM
60S TOP FORTY RADIO RETURNS TODD STORZ Broadcasting 0 August 21st 04 05:23 AM
Does this Shorty Forty Antenna work? Alex Antenna 6 May 3rd 04 10:59 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:13 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 RadioBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about Radio"

 

Copyright © 2017