wrote:
Klystron wrote:

If an
ambulance crew is transporting a 90 year old heart attack victim, it is
certainly a matter of life or death for that one patient.


Agreed. But what if they are transporting several people - say, a
young family that was in a serious auto accident? Or suppose they were
transporting desperately-needed medicines, blood, etc., during an
epidemic?


If you want to COMMANDEER something, re-read my previous post. It
doesn't matter if there are 99 people in the ambulance, they are all
having heart attacks and the ambulance is on fire.


However, if
the ambulance breaks down, they can't commandeer your car. For a
government agency to seize private property (a category that includes
repeaters, transceivers, etc.) for their own use, they must have a
declaration of emergency, declaration of martial law, or, in individual
cases, a court order.


I'm not sure what the ultimate legality is, in a case like that or the
others I described. I suspect that government folks would not seize
private property for emergency use unless they were desperate, because
of the possible liability.


Look for definitions of terms like "declaration of emergency,"
"martial law" or "disaster area." This is heavily traveled territory -
we don't need to reinvent the wheel, here in this newsgroup.


OTOH, would you want to have it on your conscience that a person or a
family died because you wouldn't let the ambulance folks use your car
when it was desperately needed?


See bottom paragraph.


The fire department employee who claimed that the
FD could take over an amateur radio club's repeaters anytime that they
wanted to do so was dead wrong.


I don't think the FD person wanted the repeaters. He said they could
use the frequencies, not the repeaters. And the frequencies are public
property, after all. An amateur or club might own the repeater but
they don't own the frequencies.

Further complicating the situation is the fact that many if not most
amateur radio repeaters aren't installed on the owner's property. For
example, one of the repeaters I use is on top of a local hospital,
where its antenna shares rooftop space with antennas for other radio
services. (It's an excellent location and gives very good coverage).
It's connected to the hospital's backup power system, too. The
repeater club pays a nominal fee for the electric power and rent.
Given that level of community support, don't the repeater owners have
some responsibility to the community?


If you put your shoes in a locker at the gym, are they still YOUR
shoes?


Like the situation of the broken-down ambulance, would any radio
amateur want it on his/her conscience that a building burned down, and/
or people died, because s/he wouldn't let the emergency service people
use an amateur radio repeater in an emergency when it was desperately
needed?


There is a bit of difference between a civic minded amateur radio
club voluntarily making its facilities available and a government
employee with an inflated sense of entitlement believing that he can
seize whatever he wants to seize whenever he want to seize it because
fires and sick people in ambulances are really, really important.

--
Klystron

On Feb 29, 9:14�pm, Klystron wrote:
wrote:
Klystron wrote:

But what if they are transporting several people - say, a
young family that was in a serious auto accident?
Or suppose they were
transporting desperately-needed medicines, blood, etc.,
during an
epidemic?

If you want to COMMANDEER something, re-read my previous
post. It
doesn't matter if there are 99 people in the ambulance, they are all
having heart attacks and the ambulance is on fire.

However, if
the ambulance breaks down, they can't commandeer your
car. For a
government agency to seize private property
(a category that includes
repeaters, transceivers, etc.) for their own use, they
must have a
declaration of emergency, declaration of martial law,
or, in individual
cases, a court order.

I'm not sure what the ultimate legality is, in a case like that or the
others I described. I suspect that government folks would not
seize
private property for emergency use unless they were
desperate, because
of the possible liability.

� �Look for definitions of terms like "declaration of emer
gency,"
"martial law" or "disaster area." This is heavily traveled territory -
we don't need to reinvent the wheel, here in this newsgroup.

The main point is that there has to be a clear and defined life-and-
death emergency.

But there's also the point of who can declare an emergency? Can the
EMTs say that the ambulance breakdown is an emergency?

OTOH, would you want to have it on your conscience
that a person or a
family died because you wouldn't let the ambulance
folks use your car
when it was desperately needed?

� �See bottom paragraph.

OK

I don't think the FD person wanted the repeaters.
He said they could
use the frequencies, not the repeaters. And the frequencies
are public
property, after all. An amateur or club might own the
repeater but
they don't own the frequencies.

This makes it a completely different situation from the commandeering
of private property.

Further complicating the situation is the fact that
many if not most
amateur radio repeaters aren't installed on the
owner's property.

� �If you put your shoes in a locker at the gym, are they
still YOUR
shoes?

Of course - but if someone needed them in a life-and-death
emergency....

There's also the question of contract provisions as part of the rental
agreement. Shoes in a locker are different from permanently installed
radio equipment requiring power and radiating RF.

Like the situation of the broken-down ambulance, would any
radio
amateur want it on his/her conscience that a building
burned down, and/
or people died, because s/he wouldn't let the
emergency service people
use an amateur radio repeater in an emergency
when it was desperately
needed?

� �There is a bit of difference between a civic minded ama
teur
radio
club voluntarily making its facilities available and a government
employee with an inflated sense of entitlement believing that
he can
seize whatever he wants to seize whenever he want to seize it
because
fires and sick people in ambulances are really, really important.

Of course - but what if the emergency really does meet K2ASP's double-
prong test? That is, it's a real life-and-death emergency, and there
are no other facilities available that can do the job?

As KB9X points out, the quoted person who said "everything we do is
life-and-death" was way out of line, and not representative at all.
But what about real-life situations that meet the two-prong test?
Granted they are very rare, and most of us will never encounter them,
but the time to think about them is before they happen.

73 de Jim, N2EY

wrote:
Klystron wrote:
[...]

Look for definitions of terms like "declaration of emergency,"
"martial law" or "disaster area." This is heavily traveled territory -
we don't need to reinvent the wheel, here in this newsgroup.


The main point is that there has to be a clear and defined life-and-
death emergency.

But there's also the point of who can declare an emergency? Can the
EMTs say that the ambulance breakdown is an emergency?


Ambulance crews cannot authorize themselves to commandeer property;
only civilian government officials can do that. The gravity of the
emergency has nothing to do with it. It is just not their call to make.

[...]

If you put your shoes in a locker at the gym, are they still YOUR
shoes?


Of course - but if someone needed them in a life-and-death
emergency....


They would have to ASK you for them.


There's also the question of contract provisions as part of the rental
agreement. Shoes in a locker are different from permanently installed
radio equipment requiring power and radiating RF.


Not from a property ownership point of view.


[...]

Of course - but what if the emergency really does meet K2ASP's double-
prong test? That is, it's a real life-and-death emergency, and there
are no other facilities available that can do the job?

As KB9X points out, the quoted person who said "everything we do is
life-and-death" was way out of line, and not representative at all.
But what about real-life situations that meet the two-prong test?
Granted they are very rare, and most of us will never encounter them,
but the time to think about them is before they happen.


We are not the first people to consider these issues. As I said
before, this is well-traveled territory. Phil's 2 prong test pertains to
emergency actions on frequencies that one is not normally allowed to
use. It has nothing to do with the seizure of private property. That is
a topic over which the FCC has no authority or jurisdiction whatever.

--
Klystron