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TV frequencies up for grabs- lets lobby now
In Feb 2009, all TVs will become digital. As a result, analog TV
spectrum will become available. It will be auctioned off. Chances are it will go to big companies, making their monopoly even bigger. These frequencies would be better used if it went to amateur radio, public non-license radio ( like FRS and CB is now), and small business (such as letting small business offer commercial radio services). Alot of innovative applications will result. And it will create jobs and new businesses that would otherwise not exist. Also, it would increase public interest and involvement. If we do nothing, these frequencies will be lost. Lets lobby now. |
TV frequencies up for grabs- lets lobby now
|
TV frequencies up for grabs- lets lobby now
wrote in message
... In Feb 2009, all TVs will become digital. As a result, analog TV spectrum will become available. It will be auctioned off. Chances are it will go to big companies, making their monopoly even bigger. These frequencies would be better used if it went to amateur radio, public non-license radio ( like FRS and CB is now), and small business (such as letting small business offer commercial radio services). Alot of innovative applications will result. And it will create jobs and new businesses that would otherwise not exist. Also, it would increase public interest and involvement. If we do nothing, these frequencies will be lost. Lets lobby now. You're about 4 years too late. The original date for the analog broadcast TV shutdown was in 2006 - so the auctions were actually held before then. However, Congress extended the date because few people even knew of it. |
TV frequencies up for grabs- lets lobby now
I imagine those frequencies were all spoken for long before now.
Russ W6OHM wrote in message ... In Feb 2009, all TVs will become digital. As a result, analog TV spectrum will become available. It will be auctioned off. Chances are it will go to big companies, making their monopoly even bigger. These frequencies would be better used if it went to amateur radio, public non-license radio ( like FRS and CB is now), and small business (such as letting small business offer commercial radio services). Alot of innovative applications will result. And it will create jobs and new businesses that would otherwise not exist. Also, it would increase public interest and involvement. If we do nothing, these frequencies will be lost. Lets lobby now. |
TV frequencies up for grabs- lets lobby now
wrote:
In Feb 2009, all TVs will become digital. As a result, analog TV spectrum will become available. It will be auctioned off. Chances are it will go to big companies, making their monopoly even bigger. I went looking for discussion on what is likely to happen. Ivor points out that it will be 2012 before the change is made in the UK, yet the first article I found is from the UK. Apparently they're actually thinking about this, studying it, and examining what the best use would be for the resources. (See http://preview.tinyurl.com/3p3uvo ) US organizations are, too. At http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/10349.cfm I found this quote: Advocacy groups such as Public Knowledge and Consumers Union say the auction represents the best and last opportunity for large portions of the U.S. to have a third broadband provider that competes with the cable and telecom giants. These groups are asking the FCC to require that part of the auctioned spectrum be sold with so-called open-access rules attached, meaning the winner of the auction would have to sell wholesale access to the network to any company that wants it. These frequencies would be better used if it went to amateur radio, public non-license radio ( like FRS and CB is now), and small business (such as letting small business offer commercial radio services). Apparently 24 MHz of the available 84 MHz has already been earmarked for public safety. Is the current allocation of two-way public non-license or amateur-radio-license spectrum sufficiently saturated to justify additional allocation? Personally I don't think so, but maybe in urban areas things are different. Alot of innovative applications will result. And it will create jobs and new businesses that would otherwise not exist. Also, it would increase public interest and involvement. What innovative applications would you anticipate? I don't see either commercial or amateur radio services expanding just because they have additional spectrum. Where's the demand? Who is going to buy radio service when they already have a cell phone in their hand? If we do nothing, these frequencies will be lost. Lets lobby now. It's probably too late to do any effective lobbying on this issue. But the frequency spectrum won't be "lost"; it will be used somehow. The question is whether it will be used in the "best way". Problem is, different people have different ideas of what the "best way" might be. I don't envy the FCC the policy task of walking the tightrope between letting market forces decide and placing curbs in place to prevent "big money" from becoming "bigger money". 73, Steve KB9X |
TV frequencies up for grabs- lets lobby now
On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 02:13:43 -0400, vshah1010 wrote:
In Feb 2009, all TVs will become digital. As a result, analog TV spectrum will become available. It will be auctioned off. Chances are it will go to big companies, making their monopoly even bigger. These frequencies would be better This spectrum has already been sold. Except for the 24MHz worth that's being reserved for public-safety communications. Some of the new uses have already been implemented. For example, Verizon's "V-Cast" (video broadcasts to mobile phones) uses the spectrum formerly occupied by TV channel 55. A number of TV stations have already closed their analog operations on this channel and adjacent channel 56. |
TV frequencies up for grabs- lets lobby now
Doug Smith W9WI wrote:
On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 02:13:43 -0400, vshah1010 wrote: In Feb 2009, all TVs will become digital. As a result, analog TV spectrum will become available. It will be auctioned off. Chances are it will go to big companies, making their monopoly even bigger. These frequencies would be better This spectrum has already been sold. Except for the 24MHz worth that's being reserved for public-safety communications. Some of the new uses have already been implemented. For example, Verizon's "V-Cast" (video broadcasts to mobile phones) uses the spectrum formerly occupied by TV channel 55. A number of TV stations have already closed their analog operations on this channel and adjacent channel 56. The 50s and 60s channels have already been auctioned. (The 36 MHz of 60s auctioned recently brought about $650M/MHz) However, the analog turn-off will vacate most of TV Ch 2-6, and most of 7-13. This is the truly valuable channel space, and will be fought over tenaciously. (174-216 MHz) There is also a proposal to allow devices to selectively "seek" out vacant channels in any given locality to use for low power applications, without interfering with television. This works OK with digital TV channels which may be adjacent, but the problem is that analog LPTV and translator stations are being allowed to stay on the air indefinitely, which means that adjacent channels with strange digital signals filling the bandwidth could spill over causing interference to an analog TV signal. The odds of the FCC "giving" any of this spectrum to hams, or other so-called "citizens" uses are slim since the FCC is mandated by Congress to auction off all non-public-safety spectrum recovered from other services. Rick T. - W7RT |
TV frequencies up for grabs- lets lobby now
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 03:24:59 -0400, Rick T wrote:
However, the analog turn-off will vacate most of TV Ch 2-6, and most of 7-13. This is the truly valuable channel space, and will be fought over tenaciously. (174-216 MHz) There will be 40 full-power digital TV stations remaining in channels 2-6 , not to mention low-power and Class A stations. There has been some talk of expanding FM radio broadcasting into this band but I don't think it's very likely. This band isn't very appealing to other services, because of the large antennas necessary for effective operation and the prevalence of noise an d interference. Channels 7-13 are solidly TV territory and will not be going to other services. There will be 452 full-power digital TV stations on these channels post-transition, and again some number of low-power and Class A stations. Most TV stations that had the option of running their permanen t digital operation in channels 7-13 chose to do so, even if it meant obsoleting a perfectly good UHF transmitter/antenna. Coverage is better for a given amount of power than on UHF, and transmitters are more efficient. (i.e., lower utility bills) is also a proposal to allow devices to selectively "seek" out vacant channels in any given locality to use for low power applications, without interfering with television. This works OK with digital TV channels which may be adjacent, but the problem is that analog LPTV and translator stations are being allowed to stay on the air indefinitely, which means that adjacent channels with strange digital signals filling the bandwidth could spill over causing interference to an analog TV signal. "...works OK with digital TV channels which may be adjacent..." is under dispute, with some engineers arguing otherwise. Especially given the potentially high U/D (undesirable-to-desirable) signal strength ratios. In an FCC test earlier this year, they also found the devices did a *really poor* job of detecting which channels were vacant! (understandable as these devices are likely to have far poorer antennas than are commonly used on TV sets, especially in the more rural areas where the TV signals are weaker and larger antennas are more likely to be in use) Analog low-power stations do not have a current deadline for digital conversion. However, the FCC has announced that there *will be* a deadline. I doubt it will be more than two years into the future. (and even if it they do get a lot more time, I think many are going to find themselves forced to convert as fewer viewers are willing to deal with analog signals) The odds of the FCC "giving" any of this spectrum to hams, or other so-called "citizens" uses are slim since the FCC is mandated by Congres s to auction off all non-public-safety spectrum recovered from other services. Very true. |
TV frequencies up for grabs- lets lobby now
Doug Smith W9WI wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 03:24:59 -0400, Rick T wrote: However, the analog turn-off will vacate most of TV Ch 2-6, and most of 7-13. This is the truly valuable channel space, and will be fought over tenaciously. (174-216 MHz) There will be 40 full-power digital TV stations remaining in channels 2-6 , not to mention low-power and Class A stations. There has been some talk of expanding FM radio broadcasting into this band but I don't think it's very likely. This band isn't very appealing to other services, because of the large antennas necessary for effective operation and the prevalence of noise an d interference. Channels 7-13 are solidly TV territory and will not be going to other services. There will be 452 full-power digital TV stations on these channels post-transition, and again some number of low-power and Class A stations. Most TV stations that had the option of running their permanen t digital operation in channels 7-13 chose to do so, even if it meant obsoleting a perfectly good UHF transmitter/antenna. Coverage is better for a given amount of power than on UHF, and transmitters are more efficient. (i.e., lower utility bills) is also a proposal to allow devices to selectively "seek" out vacant channels in any given locality to use for low power applications, without interfering with television. This works OK with digital TV channels which may be adjacent, but the problem is that analog LPTV and translator stations are being allowed to stay on the air indefinitely, which means that adjacent channels with strange digital signals filling the bandwidth could spill over causing interference to an analog TV signal. "...works OK with digital TV channels which may be adjacent..." is under dispute, with some engineers arguing otherwise. Especially given the potentially high U/D (undesirable-to-desirable) signal strength ratios. In an FCC test earlier this year, they also found the devices did a *really poor* job of detecting which channels were vacant! (understandable as these devices are likely to have far poorer antennas than are commonly used on TV sets, especially in the more rural areas where the TV signals are weaker and larger antennas are more likely to be in use) Analog low-power stations do not have a current deadline for digital conversion. However, the FCC has announced that there *will be* a deadline. I doubt it will be more than two years into the future. (and even if it they do get a lot more time, I think many are going to find themselves forced to convert as fewer viewers are willing to deal with analog signals) The odds of the FCC "giving" any of this spectrum to hams, or other so-called "citizens" uses are slim since the FCC is mandated by Congres s to auction off all non-public-safety spectrum recovered from other services. Very true. Hi Doug.....thanks for your comments. Well, I count about 60 stations licensed for high-power digital TV operations nationwide on 7-13.....not a huge number by any means. Here in Arizona, there are very few remaining after the transition. The public safety folks, having failed to take any of the 138-174 spectrum from the military here (Mainly because of the Army base at Ft. Huachuca) are now looking at the possibility of getting some of that 174-216. I doubt that it will happen though. Yes, there is no deadline yet, and the Commission hasn't indicated if they will eventually set a firm deadline for LPTV and Translators. There are a huge number of translators in northwest Arizona.....at a cost of over $3,000 each to convert the translators times about 50, plus the LPTV stuff in the Phoenix and Tucson metro areas. I think the FCC will allow at least 5 years, if not more, unless they're in the 60's spectrum. However, they're mostly already chased out of that area. Because of the reasons you mentioned, I don't support allowing other services to access the "white space" between channels....just too many things that can go wrong and mess up a signal.....particularly a weak rural signal, and especially an analog translator channel. I think the best we hams can hope for is some additional HF spectrum as shortwave broadcasting slowly dies. Sure would like to see 30M expanded, as well as a full band at 5 MHz, and an expanded 20 and 17 M bands. Of course, we still need to clear 7200-7300 worldwide. Good Luck :) 73, Rick T. - W7RT |
TV frequencies up for grabs- lets lobby now
On Wed, 2 Jul 2008 16:35:34 EDT, Rick T wrote:
The public safety folks, having failed to take any of the 138-174 spectrum from the military here (Mainly because of the Army base at Ft. Huachuca) are now looking at the possibility of getting some of that 174-216. I doubt that it will happen though. You and I both know, Rick, that one of the main reasons will be that "The Big M" (ham content: owner of Yaesu) will not be interested in producing two-way radio equipment in that band because of the relatively small sales volume as compared to their new whiz-bang 700 MHz systems that will require ten times as many sites for the same coverage. Another rant expelled.... -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net |
TV frequencies up for grabs- lets lobby now
On Wed, 2 Jul 2008 16:35:34 EDT, Rick T wrote:
There are a huge number of translators in northwest Arizona.....at a cost of over $3,000 each to convert the translators times about 50, plus the LPTV stuff in the Phoenix and Tucson metro areas. I have very little sympathy for the LPTV folks in that regard. They wanted to play with the "big dogs" by running a TV station but don't want to do what the "big dogs" have to do to stay on the air. Don't even get me started on LPFM...... I wish that the ham community had as much clout with The Congress and the FCC as the LPTV people have - maybe we'd get the legislation that we need to solve important problems, like pre-emption of CC&Rs for antenna towers and better protection from interlopers, be they primary users or not (my two hot buttons). -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net |
TV frequencies up for grabs- lets lobby now
On Wed, 02 Jul 2008 16:35:34 -0400, Rick T wrote:
Well, I count about 60 stations licensed for high-power digital TV operations nationwide on 7-13.....not a huge number by any means. I think you're working from a very early table. I count 137 stations currently licensed to operate DTV stations on these channels. Those are interim operations. Another 300 or so stations will be moving their DTV operations to 7-13 from other channels, usually UHF. Here in Arizona, there are very few remaining after the transition. The public safety folks, having failed to take any of the 138-174 spectrum from the military here (Mainly because of the Army base at Ft. Huachuca) are now looking at the possibility of getting some of that 174-216. I doubt that it will happen though. I count eight. There are nine analog stations currently operating in tha t spectrum in the state. To pick two more states more or less at random: Kansas: 11 analog stations in 7-13 today. 2 interim DTV operations in 7-13 today. 13 permanent DTV operations in 7-13 after transition. Pennsylvania: 7 analog stations in 7-13 today. 4 interim DTV operations in 7-13 today. 9 permanent DTV operations in 7-13 after transition. Yes, there is no deadline yet, and the Commission hasn't indicated if they will eventually set a firm deadline for LPTV and Translators. Ther e are a huge number of translators in northwest Arizona.....at a cost of over $3,000 each to convert the translators times about 50, plus the LPTV stuff in the Phoenix and Tucson metro areas. I think the FCC will allow at least 5 years, if not more, unless they're in the 60's spectrum. However, they're mostly already chased out of that area. From a FCC document dated February 11th: "While the February 17, 2009 deadline for ending analog broadcasts does not apply to low-power, Class A, and TV translator stations, the FCC will require these stations to convert to digital broadcasting sometime thereafter. ... The FCC is currently considering the remaining issues inv olved with the low-power digital transition and will make decisions regarding these stations in the future. " I read that as meaning that they *will* set a firm deadline. My two-year figure, on the other hand, is just my gut feeling. Your five year + figure could well be right. (but I doubt it) |
TV frequencies up for grabs- lets lobby now
"Doug Smith W9WI" wrote in message
... On Wed, 02 Jul 2008 16:35:34 -0400, Rick T wrote: Well, I count about 60 stations licensed for high-power digital TV operations nationwide on 7-13.....not a huge number by any means. I think you're working from a very early table. I count 137 stations currently licensed to operate DTV stations on these channels. Those are interim operations. Another 300 or so stations will be moving their DTV operations to 7-13 from other channels, usually UHF. Here in Arizona, there are very few remaining after the transition. The public safety folks, having failed to take any of the 138-174 spectrum from the military here (Mainly because of the Army base at Ft. Huachuca) are now looking at the possibility of getting some of that 174-216. I doubt that it will happen though. I count eight. There are nine analog stations currently operating in tha t spectrum in the state. To pick two more states more or less at random: Kansas: 11 analog stations in 7-13 today. 2 interim DTV operations in 7-13 today. 13 permanent DTV operations in 7-13 after transition. Pennsylvania: 7 analog stations in 7-13 today. 4 interim DTV operations in 7-13 today. 9 permanent DTV operations in 7-13 after transition. ---------------------------------------- Well, here in Southern California (Los Angeles + San Diego), each of 7-13 is actually occupied with a full-power TV station and will continue to be. The odd channels are for LA and the evens for SD (12 for Tijuana, Mexico). The best grab we could hope for is perhaps "Channel 2" - at 54-60 MHz and being adjacent to our 6 meter band. |
TV frequencies up for grabs- lets lobby now
On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 18:53:44 -0400, D. Stussy wrote:
Well, here in Southern California (Los Angeles + San Diego), each of 7- 13 is actually occupied with a full-power TV station and will continue to be. The odd channels are for LA and the evens for SD (12 for Tijuana, Mexico). At least the interim channel for the Tijuana station is 32 - it's unclear to me as to whether Mexican stations will be allowed to return their DTV operations to their current analog channels. |
TV frequencies up for grabs- lets lobby now
"Doug Smith W9WI" wrote in message
... On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 18:53:44 -0400, D. Stussy wrote: Well, here in Southern California (Los Angeles + San Diego), each of 7- 13 is actually occupied with a full-power TV station and will continue to be. The odd channels are for LA and the evens for SD (12 for Tijuana, Mexico). At least the interim channel for the Tijuana station is 32 - it's unclear to me as to whether Mexican stations will be allowed to return their DTV operations to their current analog channels. "What DTV operations?" Mexico decided to keep analog TV through 2025. |
TV frequencies up for grabs- lets lobby now
On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 17:57:59 -0400, D. Stussy wrote:
"Doug Smith W9WI" wrote in message ... On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 18:53:44 -0400, D. Stussy wrote: Well, here in Southern California (Los Angeles + San Diego), each of 7 - 13 is actually occupied with a full-power TV station and will continue to be .. The odd channels are for LA and the evens for SD (12 for Tijuana, Mexico). At least the interim channel for the Tijuana station is 32 - it's uncle ar to me as to whether Mexican stations will be allowed to return their DT V operations to their current analog channels. "What DTV operations?" Mexico decided to keep analog TV through 2025. Mexico is phasing in DTV just as we are - they're just taking a lot longe r to do it. There is already a full slate of DTV stations in Tijuana - starting with XETV's on channel 23. DTV stations are on the air in several other border cities (Juarez, for one) and in Monterrey. If they don't change their rules before then, there will indeed continue to be analog TV stations in Mexico until 2025 - but by then there will also be a full complement of digital stations. |
TV frequencies up for grabs- lets lobby now
"Doug Smith W9WI" wrote in message
... On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 17:57:59 -0400, D. Stussy wrote: "Doug Smith W9WI" wrote in message ... On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 18:53:44 -0400, D. Stussy wrote: Well, here in Southern California (Los Angeles + San Diego), each of 7 - 13 is actually occupied with a full-power TV station and will continue to be .. The odd channels are for LA and the evens for SD (12 for Tijuana, Mexico). At least the interim channel for the Tijuana station is 32 - it's uncle ar to me as to whether Mexican stations will be allowed to return their DT V operations to their current analog channels. "What DTV operations?" Mexico decided to keep analog TV through 2025. Mexico is phasing in DTV just as we are - they're just taking a lot longe r to do it. There is already a full slate of DTV stations in Tijuana - starting with XETV's on channel 23. DTV stations are on the air in several other border cities (Juarez, for one) and in Monterrey. If they don't change their rules before then, there will indeed continue to be analog TV stations in Mexico until 2025 - but by then there will also be a full complement of digital stations. --------- Only U.S. border-sharing areas will have DTV, because it's for stations that have U.S. reception. TWIAR reported about 2 months ago that Mexico actually passed a referendum NOT to consider a change in non-border-sharing areas until 2025. |
TV frequencies up for grabs- lets lobby now
On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 11:01:24 -0400, D. Stussy wrote:
Only U.S. border-sharing areas will have DTV, because it's for stations that have U.S. reception. TWIAR reported about 2 months ago that Mexico act ually passed a referendum NOT to consider a change in non-border-sharing area s until 2025. I know of no such referendum. I have to presume TWIAR misinterpreted something... See the official Mexican government list: http://www.cofetel.gob.mx/wb/Cofetel...elevision_digi tal_in which shows eight stations in Mexico City; five in Guadaljara; and six in Monterrey. None of these are close enough to the border to have any audience in the U.S.. (except, possibly, for the Monterrey stations during tropo openings!) This list correlates well with press releases like this one: http://broadcastengineering.com/RF/G...-DTV-20060222/ which indicate that as of two years ago, DTV transmitters were already installed and operating in the three major interior cities. (and Tijuana ) |
TV frequencies up for grabs- lets lobby now
Doug Smith W9WI wrote:
On Wed, 02 Jul 2008 16:35:34 -0400, Rick T wrote: Well, I count about 60 stations licensed for high-power digital TV operations nationwide on 7-13.....not a huge number by any means. I think you're working from a very early table. I count 137 stations currently licensed to operate DTV stations on these channels. Those are interim operations. Another 300 or so stations will be moving their DTV operations to 7-13 from other channels, usually UHF. Here in Arizona, there are very few remaining after the transition. The public safety folks, having failed to take any of the 138-174 spectrum from the military here (Mainly because of the Army base at Ft. Huachuca) are now looking at the possibility of getting some of that 174-216. I doubt that it will happen though. I count eight. There are nine analog stations currently operating in tha t spectrum in the state. To pick two more states more or less at random: Kansas: 11 analog stations in 7-13 today. 2 interim DTV operations in 7-13 today. 13 permanent DTV operations in 7-13 after transition. Pennsylvania: 7 analog stations in 7-13 today. 4 interim DTV operations in 7-13 today. 9 permanent DTV operations in 7-13 after transition. Yes, there is no deadline yet, and the Commission hasn't indicated if they will eventually set a firm deadline for LPTV and Translators. Ther e are a huge number of translators in northwest Arizona.....at a cost of over $3,000 each to convert the translators times about 50, plus the LPTV stuff in the Phoenix and Tucson metro areas. I think the FCC will allow at least 5 years, if not more, unless they're in the 60's spectrum. However, they're mostly already chased out of that area. From a FCC document dated February 11th: "While the February 17, 2009 deadline for ending analog broadcasts does not apply to low-power, Class A, and TV translator stations, the FCC will require these stations to convert to digital broadcasting sometime thereafter. ... The FCC is currently considering the remaining issues inv olved with the low-power digital transition and will make decisions regarding these stations in the future. " I read that as meaning that they *will* set a firm deadline. My two-year figure, on the other hand, is just my gut feeling. Your five year + figure could well be right. (but I doubt it) Well Doug, I noticed that on the FCC's 1999 R&O on DTV, they said that they would have another ruling dealing with Translators and LPTV "very shortly". Let's see, it's now 2008, and counting. :) My count is from a 2007 listing found on the FCC's website.....but, the wildcard may be the number of VHF analog stations who got their DTV allocation at UHF, but, once the transition is complete, may want to move back to VHF for it's better propagation characteristics.....particularly the 7-13 channels. Rick T. |
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