The discussion about emergencies and complex systems reminded me of
Lister engines.

They're slow-speed diesel engines of very old design. Usually they are
used as backup generators.

They've gathered a considerable following, as evidenced on websites
like this one:

http://www.f1-rocketboy.com/lister.html

There's almost something steam-punky about them!

Some might wonder why anyone in his/her right mind would bother with
such old technology, particularly when much smaller, lighter, newer
generators are available.

One reason I can see is that in an emergency situation the big Lister
can be fixed with minimal tools and parts. Another is that even a small
one isn't going anywhere unless it's on a trailer. Still another is the
ability to buy and fabricate parts - everything is so big.

The performance achieved is pretty impressive, once all the bugs
areworked out.

What this has to do with Amateur Radio is:

1) In an emergency, old and simple has its advantages. This goes for
radios as well as engines

2) No RFI!

3) The Lister isn't too fussy about fuel; I suspect one can run on
diesel, heating oil, biodiesel, vegetable oil (in a warm climate) and
maybe kerosene (in a cold climate.) Our radios should be as flexible.

4) The Lister is simple enough that a reasonably-knowledgeable non-
professional can do whatever is needed to build and maintain a genset
based on one. I think the same should be true of Amateur Radio rigs -
maybe not all of them, but certainly at least some. While they may not
be as fancy or "state of the art" as some, what matters is they work.

73 de Jim, N2EY

wrote:

4) The Lister is simple enough that a reasonably-knowledgeable non-
professional can do whatever is needed to build and maintain a genset
based on one. I think the same should be true of Amateur Radio rigs -
maybe not all of them, but certainly at least some. While they may not
be as fancy or "state of the art" as some, what matters is they work.

There are presently a lot of radios that are relatively reliable even if
fixing them might be beyond most hams. I've built Heathkits, simple cw
transmitters and receivers and bluntly to fix most, I'ld need more test gear
than is likely to be available on the spur of the moment. Yeah, I know how
to use an antenna analyzer as a signal generator or as a relatively poor
GDO, and I almost always have a 50 watt dummy load. I suspect that there
presently isn't a ham equivalent of a Lister engine and unless somebody
builds one, there won't be. Besides for ham radio, such rigs would need
spare parts and some place to work on them. A spare radio would still be a
better choice than one that can be fixed in five hours when time is of
concern. Of course if you can find or design a kit that's functional,
reliable and has easy to acquire spare parts, I'ld like to try building one.

One other point, making rigs simple often amounts to having to limit what
frequencies are covered. It doesn't do much good to have let's say an 80M
cw rig if contacts are more likely on 40M, or that's where people can hear
you. The Icom MKIIG and Yaesu FT-857 are relatively small, relatively
reliable, run on 12 volts and are relatively simple to operate. I have a
TS50 for HF, but it's getting really long in the tooth, not sure I'ld want
it as my sole rig in an emergency. For an emergency, I would prefer one of
them especially if I had several. Switching power supplies are relatively
tolerant of voltage variations produced by generators so they could be used
to power such rigs assuming you have fuel available for a genset.

Finally, maybe we're both ignoring the possibility that the best approach
would be complicated rigs that diagnosed their own problems and indicated
which module to replace or repair. Given a collection of the modules most
likely to fail, that would be the real ideal choice.

On Feb 7, 10:42�am, Art Clemons wrote:

�I suspect that there
presently isn't a ham equivalent of a Lister
engine and unless somebody
builds one, there won't be.

Take a look at

www.elecraft.com

particularly the K2 and K3 transceivers.

Besides for ham radio, such rigs would need
spare parts and some place to work on them.
�A spare radio would still be a
better choice than one that can be fixed in
five hours when time is of
concern.

Of course!

But the point is to be able to use what's available.

Of course if you can find or design a kit
that's functional,
reliable and has easy to acquire
spare parts, I'ld like to try building one.

See the above reference. Thousands of Elecraft rigs have been built and
used, with a minimum of tools and test equipment.

One other point, making rigs simple
often amounts to having to limit what
frequencies are covered. �It doesn't do
much good to have let's say an 80M
cw rig if contacts are more likely on
40M, or that's where people can hear
you.

Of course. But there's also the opposite extreme, where it is expected
that one rig will do everything.

�The Icom MKIIG and Yaesu FT-857
are relatively small, relatively
reliable, run on 12 volts and are relatively
simple to operate. �I have a
TS50 for HF, but it's getting really long
in the tooth, not sure I'ld want
it as my sole rig in an emergency. �

All good rigs but how reliable are they really? And how fixable?

One trend I see in Amateur Radio, which IMHO isn't a good one, is the
idea that ham rigs are like consumer electronics, with a useful life of
maybe a decade, and "no user-serviceable parts inside".

For an emergency, I would prefer one of
them especially if I had several.

Having several of anything is good planning in an emergency. But it's
also expensive!

�Switching power supplies are relatively
tolerant of voltage variations produced by
generators so they could be used
to power such rigs assuming you have
fuel available for a genset. �

IMHO a better option is rigs that can run from a variety of energy
sources so that you aren't tied to a genset or auto electrical system.

Finally, maybe we're both ignoring the
possibility that the best approach
would be complicated rigs that diagnosed
their own problems and indicated
which module to replace or repair. �Given
a collection of the modules most
likely to fail, that would be the real ideal choice.

The problem is that the complexity required to do that can reduce the
overall reliability...

I know the following is a blue-sky fantasy, but here's what I'd like to
see.

In the world of PCs, there are lots of standards which have evolved
over time and been adopted by many different manufacturers. The result
is that you can assemble, upgrade or repair most PCs made in the past
15 years or so with just a screwdriver.

Wouldn't it be great if ham rigs were built the same way?

73 de Jim, N2EY

On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 10:42:59 EST, Art Clemons
wrote:

wrote:

4) The Lister is simple enough that a reasonably-knowledgeable non-
professional can do whatever is needed to build and maintain a genset
based on one. I think the same should be true of Amateur Radio rigs -
maybe not all of them, but certainly at least some. While they may not
be as fancy or "state of the art" as some, what matters is they work.

There are presently a lot of radios that are relatively reliable even if
fixing them might be beyond most hams. I've built Heathkits, simple cw
transmitters and receivers and bluntly to fix most, I'ld need more test gear
than is likely to be available on the spur of the moment. Yeah, I know how
to use an antenna analyzer as a signal generator or as a relatively poor
GDO, and I almost always have a 50 watt dummy load. I suspect that there
presently isn't a ham equivalent of a Lister engine and unless somebody
builds one, there won't be. Besides for ham radio, such rigs would need
spare parts and some place to work on them. A spare radio would still be a
better choice than one that can be fixed in five hours when time is of
concern. Of course if you can find or design a kit that's functional,
reliable and has easy to acquire spare parts, I'ld like to try building one.

One other point, making rigs simple often amounts to having to limit what
frequencies are covered. It doesn't do much good to have let's say an 80M
cw rig if contacts are more likely on 40M, or that's where people can hear
you. The Icom MKIIG and Yaesu FT-857 are relatively small, relatively
reliable, run on 12 volts and are relatively simple to operate. I have a
TS50 for HF, but it's getting really long in the tooth, not sure I'ld want
it as my sole rig in an emergency. For an emergency, I would prefer one of
them especially if I had several. Switching power supplies are relatively
tolerant of voltage variations produced by generators so they could be used
to power such rigs assuming you have fuel available for a genset.

Finally, maybe we're both ignoring the possibility that the best approach
would be complicated rigs that diagnosed their own problems and indicated
which module to replace or repair. Given a collection of the modules most
likely to fail, that would be the real ideal choice.


Ditto.

I've been licensed since 1958 and have gone through a boatload of rigs
-- old, new, military surplus, homebrew, QRO, QRP.

I lived in Bay St. Louis, MS, when Hurricane Katrina took out the
town. My FT-857 with the ATAS-120 antenna mounted on the back of my
truck provided the only commo in and out for about 12 hours until
National Guard arrived.

I'm not familiar with the ICOM or Kenwood equivalents but the FT-817
and -857 seem to me to be almost perfect emergency rigs: Cover
80-435, all modes; very complex rigs but can be set up for simple
operation; reliable; very portable; low power requirements. In fact,
with a battery and a solar charger, the FT-817 could operate
indefinitely, as could any other similar rig with power throttled back
to around 5 watts.

On Feb 4, 7:50 pm, wrote:

Some might wonder why anyone in his/her right mind would bother with
such old technology, particularly when much smaller, lighter, newer
generators are available.

One reason I can see is that in an emergency situation the big Lister
can be fixed with minimal tools and parts. Another is that even a small
one isn't going anywhere unless it's on a trailer. Still another is the
ability to buy and fabricate parts - everything is so big.


I don't think your avarage guy (or gal) is going to be able to do what
that guy did, and even he had to have some spare parts on hand to keep
his generator on line. They had issues with injectors and fuel lines
that required parts that where not on hand or available from the
hardware store up the street. This was far from a "build it all
yourself" power generator. So I don't think your comparison to ham
radios is a fair one.

However, it does underscore the need to have alternate power sources
to power our radios. Batteries are great, but they need to be
charged, generators are wonderful, but they need fuel. Thinking
though these things and comming up with a long term plan to deal with
likely emergency situations is the key. Then actually testing to make
sure it will work is something we need to get done.

For instance, I live in the Dallas area so I have to consider what
kind of emergencies I might face. Hurracaines are not likely, but
tornados and ice storms are. Short term power outages are likely, long
term outages a lot less. My current plan deals with short term
outages using batteries and things I can operate/charge in my car. If
I am faced with a long term outage, I have the ability to move far
enough away to get out of the area that is likely dammaged. What you
need are plans to use what you currently have that have been tested.

Being preaired is not that hard or expensive and doesn't depend on
being able to build my equipment from scratch. It depends on being
able and ready to deal with the likely situations I will face with the
equipment I now have. And like the rest of you, I'm into collecting
more radio equipment so I also consider how that new radio fits into
my emergency plans or what I need to make my current radios work in
that new car. It's having that necessary power cable, that cable
adapter, or that coax jumper needed to make your radio work with that
antenna you just purchased, and knowing where this stuff is when you
need it in the middle of the night when the power is out and your
flash light batteries are about to give up.

You have to plan, test, evaluate, improve and repeat to be the most
effective when the emergency hits. Simple may be better, but this
doesn't mean you have to be able to run CW from a self built tuna can
built out of scattered house parts using a wire thrown into a tree
after an F4 levels your town. It means you have a workable plan that
has been practiced that can get you on the air in as many situations
as possible with what you have on hand.

KC4UAI

My own emergency powering system consists of solar panels and
batteries.

I am building it in a stepwise fashion. The local Harbor Freight
occasionally has sales on small solar panels. My goal is to eventually
have 50 watts worth of panels. I'm at around 5 watts now, and charging
batteries with it. I run HF at around 50 watts, in fact used it for
last year's field day as a off-the grid demonstration with my Kenwood
480. Took it the whole way from full power to qrp levels and it worked
well at all of them. 50 Watts seemed to be the best compromise between
desired power and battery life. After draining the battery, I switched
to QRP.

But when I reach the 50 watt level, I expect the cells and batteries
to keep up pretty well.

-73 de Mike N3LI -