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HOA and CC&R agreements.
I see this month's edition of QST has yet another series of
articles on how to violate the terms of the contracts people sign when they move into a housing development. Jeff-1.0 wa6fwi -- "Everything from Crackers to Coffins" |
HOA and CC&R agreements.
On 10/13/2011 5:29 PM, Jeffrey Angus wrote:
I see this month's edition of QST has yet another series of articles on how to violate the terms of the contracts people sign when they move into a housing development. Oh, boy, another CC&R debate! Can I bring some popcorn? Not to pour cold water on your multiple unwarranted guesstimations, OM, but there are some things you're assuming that aren't necessarily so. 1. CC&R's or other homeowner agreements may or may not obligate homeowner to avoid erecting separate antenna structures, but you don't know that they specifically prohibit the use of concealed antennas for amateur radio. 2. The terms of the contracts people sign are subject to the laws in effect when they signed them, and those laws might invalidate restrictions on ham radio. 3. If you intend for everyone else in the body politic to help you arrange your world so that nobody ever does anything that annoys you, causes you to rethink your position, or requires you to admit to having preconceived notions, then I suggest you find a convenient cave and take out a lease, provided the CC&R's and homeowner agreements are everything you expect. HTH. HAND. YMMV. Bill, W1AC -- "Everything from crackers to coffins" .... neither of which feel good on your skin. |
HOA and CC&R agreements.
Hi Bill.
Quite the opposite. I moved out to a location where I can pretty much do what ever I want to. Antenna or other wise. I'm just tired of people moving to some location where they can't have antennas and then whining about how can I get around not having an antenna. Jeff-1.0 wa6fwi -- "Everything from Crackers to Coffins" |
HOA and CC&R agreements.
On Fri, 14 Oct 2011 17:21:11 EDT, Jeffrey Angus
wrote: Hi Bill. Quite the opposite. I moved out to a location where I can pretty much do what ever I want to. Antenna or other wise. I'm just tired of people moving to some location where they can't have antennas and then whining about how can I get around not having an antenna. Jeff-1.0 wa6fwi WTF business is it of yours where other people live and what they "whine" about? Some people have WAY too much time on their hands. |
HOA and CC&R agreements.
On 10/14/2011 6:16 PM, Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names wrote:
WTF business is it of yours where other people live and what they "whine" about? Some people have WAY too much time on their hands. I guess you don't get it. My point is this: You buy a house, or condo in a development. You sign a large legal document with stipulations as to what you can and can not do. You move in. Then you immediately try and find a way to contravene the legal document you signed. Does having an amateur radio license automatically grant you immunity from contractual agreements? What's next? "I don't have to pay the mortgage this month because I bought a new rig. I have a license." If you bought property that clearly states "No out- side antennas" that means just that. Whether it's a 70' tower, flag pole, garden sculpture or bird house. Jeff-1.0 wa6fwi -- "Everything from Crackers to Coffins" |
HOA and CC&R agreements.
Jeffrey Angus wrote:
f you bought property that clearly states "No out- side antennas" that means just that. Whether it's a 70' tower, flag pole, garden sculpture or bird house. First let's not that most CC&Rs and/or Home Owner Asocciation terms are not clearly stated nor are they easy to discover on your own. I used to see CC&Rs that were recorded on one section of land and then incorporated by reference to the terms on another plot. Home Owner Associations are often have their powers set up by the builder, and many buyers don't discover they are affected by the terms of the HOA until either they run afoul of the terms or they are affected by the deeds or actions of another supposed member. It's not likely that hidden terms will go away anytime soon, but I suggest that a limited life for the existence of cc&rs or Home Owner Associations might not be a bad idea. The concept of something running with the land isn't one most folk readily grasp! |
HOA and CC&R agreements.
In article Art Clemons writes:
Jeffrey Angus wrote: f you bought property that clearly states "No out- side antennas" that means just that. Whether it's a 70' tower, flag pole, garden sculpture or bird house. First let's not that most CC&Rs and/or Home Owner Asocciation terms are not clearly stated nor are they easy to discover on your own. This is why one must insist on seeing the details before signing. Alan |
HOA and CC&R agreements.
On Fri, 14 Oct 2011 12:21:06 EDT, Bill Horne
wrote: 1. CC&R's or other homeowner agreements may or may not obligate homeowner to avoid erecting separate antenna structures, but you don't know that they specifically prohibit the use of concealed antennas for amateur radio. FCC rulings in several cases have held that HOA regulations or CC&Rs can prohibit erection of antennas on property that they have jurisdiction over, but only the FCC can determine who and where radio transmitters can be operated. -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane ARRL Volunteer Counsel email: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net |
HOA and CC&R agreements.
On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 01:11:15 -0400, Phil Kane wrote:
FCC rulings in several cases have held that HOA regulations or CC&Rs can prohibit erection of antennas on property that they have jurisdiction over, but only the FCC can determine who and where radio transmitters can be operated. HOAs cannot prohibit installation of TV reception antennas, including parabolic reflectors up to 30" (36"?) on parts of the building under exclusive control of the would-be receiver. As a licensed amateur, the FCC allows me to determine when and where I may transmit. I find the invisible (stealth?) ham a fascinating subspecies and think the hobby is better for them. Homeowners associations at best protect property values, and reserve official actions for obvious infractions. "Reasonable" goes a long way with good ones. |
HOA and CC&R agreements.
On Fri, 2011-10-14 at 17:21 -0400, Jeffrey Angus wrote:
Hi Bill. Quite the opposite. I moved out to a location where I can pretty much do what ever I want to. Antenna or other wise. I'm just tired of people moving to some location where they can't have antennas and then whining about how can I get around not having an antenna. Jeff, I "sort of" agree with you: we've covered this topic before on r.r.a.m., so I'll try to avoid beating a dead horse. The problem with CC&R's is that builders love them and real estate agents love them, and nervous new buyers love them, but they are, IMNSHO, at variance with human nature and the natural, healthy inclination to improve one's property and to make it unique and more appealing to the owner's eye. Such "contracts" are designed to reassure the purchasers of mediocre housing in second-rate cities that no one will every be allowed to do anything that makes them wonder how badly they were robbed. There are too many people around who are eager to tell me how to live and what to think, and I don't like the thought that, as time goes by, the only houses that I can afford will ALL be subject to though-police interpretation of ridiculous rules that I had to "agree" to in order to have a roof over my head. I've got a contrarian nature, but also a men-of-a-certain-age appreciation of differences and innovation, even if they mean that I must "Suffer" the obligation to look at a religious monument most politely described as "Our Lady Of The Bathtub", or a tri-band beam that I know is too low to do anything but warm up the birds' behinds. CC&R's are, by their nature, covenants that demand everyone think the same, and they are put in place to sell real estate to those whom are afraid of anyone who thinks differently. I think a little uncivil disobedience is called for. YMMV. 73, Bill W1AC |
HOA and CC&R agreements.
Alan wrote:
First let's not that most CC&Rs and/or Home Owner Asocciation terms are not clearly stated nor are they easy to discover on your own. This is why one must insist on seeing the details before signing. If it were that simple, no problem, but convenants and restrictions running with the land are often well hidden. Truthfully a seller only has to be able to legally convey the property and use of the land it sits on, any other deed restrictions are there. Even an attorney who specializes in real estate can miss well hidden CC&Rs or not notice how significant antennas being restricted, or not being able to park an RV in the backyard can be until after it's too late. HOAs can be really problematic, even after you've lived some place for let's say 2 decades, said association can change its rules/regulations and produce results which are really undesirable. The really sad part is that the FCC could decrease restrictions on Antennas and supporting structures rather easily as it did with satellite dishes and less than one meter TV antennas, but I suggest that builders and realty sellers oppose any such change. |
HOA and CC&R agreements.
On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 00:12:54 EDT, Art Clemons
wrote: The really sad part is that the FCC could decrease restrictions on Antennas and supporting structures rather easily as it did with satellite dishes and less than one meter TV antennas, but I suggest that builders and realty sellers oppose any such change. The FCC adopted the OTARD rule for TV antennas and satellite dishes only because The Congress mandated such. We have been trying to get a similar mandate for many years and it's falling on Congressional deaf ears.. The FCC was very clear a few years ago that absent such a Congressional mandate, it will not make such a rule on its own. As for "hidden" restrictions, many states, including California, require that the seller (through agent, if that is how the transaction is made), provide the buyer with a true copy of both the list of CC&Rs and any HOA rules that affect the property and the buyer has the option to review and decline to proceed with the purchase, just as with a title search and home defect inspection. When we bought this house in Oregon, we had our agent's office request that info from the county recorder through a title search company before we even got serious, and we declined several houses which were nicer and newer because there were such restrictions, including one brand new townhouse that screamed "CC&Rs" even though they couldn't find any on file. It's called "exercising due diligence". -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane ARRL Volunteer Counsel email: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net |
HOA and CC&R agreements.
On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 00:12:54 EDT, Art Clemons
wrote: The really sad part is that the FCC could decrease restrictions on Antennas and supporting structures rather easily as it did with satellite dishes and less than one meter TV antennas, but I suggest that builders and realty sellers oppose any such change. The FCC says that they lack the authority to override CC&Rs and HOA agreements as they are between private parties, but that they would override them if Congress passes a law giving them permission. So, let's lobby our federal lawmakers to pass such a law. That's the way the TV industry got the FCC to override CC&Rs and HOAs for TV receiving antennas. Dick Grady, AC7EL |
HOA and CC&R agreements.
On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 00:12:54 -0400, Art Clemons wrote:
The really sad part is that the FCC could decrease restrictions on Antennas and supporting structures rather easily as it did with satellite dishes and less than one meter TV antennas, but I suggest tha t builders and realty sellers oppose any such change. You can make a mighty fine HF antenna system and disguise it as an OTA receiver antenna. I specifically asked for no deed restrictions when I went house hunting and my realtor found me a great neighborhood full of non-judgmental gear- heads and garage bands. We block off cul-de-sacs and have block parties; not exactly Leisure World... |
HOA and CC&R agreements.
On 10/17/11 3:05 PM, Phil Kane wrote:
The FCC adopted the OTARD rule for TV antennas and satellite dishes only because The Congress mandated such. We have been trying to get a similar mandate for many years and it's falling on Congressional deaf ears. ... They were heavily lobbied by the satellite interest groups who have deep pockets...Murdoch and his ilk. Hams can't offer them anything comparable so we're just SOL... |
HOA and CC&R agreements.
On Tue, 18 Oct 2011 10:23:37 EDT, dave wrote:
You can make a mighty fine HF antenna system and disguise it as an OTA receiver antenna. In the Report and Order that established the OTARD rules, the FCC specifically said that use of an OTARD antenna for any other purpose would not fall under that protection. If the HOA was really out to get you, they would hire a company like ours or our competitors to determine that the antenna was being used to radiate a signal and then it's "gotcha". Like I always say - when you get caught, what excuse are you going to offer? -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net |
HOA and CC&R agreements.
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HOA and CC&R agreements.
On 10/18/2011 3:55 PM, Phil Kane wrote:
Like I always say - when you get caught, what excuse are you going to offer? Like I tried to explain to a friend that lost, seriously, in court. "We was robbed!" beats, "Oh, was this yours?" Every time. Jeff -- "Everything from Crackers to Coffins" |
HOA and CC&R agreements.
On 10/18/2011 4:59 PM, Phil Kane wrote:
On Tue, 18 Oct 2011 10:23:20 EDT, wrote: So, let's lobby our federal lawmakers to pass such a law. That's the way the TV industry got the FCC to override CC&Rs and HOAs for TV receiving antennas. There has been a bill to that effect introduced in the last three (or is it four now) sessions and it dies in committee. One of the powerful leaders of the House is a ham. The League is on top of it. Bottom line -- Money talks. OK, I'm going to be the one who opens the box Pandora left lying around: get ready for some fireworks. I'm going to ask a serious, and seriously discomfiting, question - Do Hams _DESERVE_ special treatment? I'm not going to mince words: if we're going to overcome HOA/CC&R restrictions, we need to have a real, believable, valid argument that can convince legislatures and neighbors that we deserve it, and I can't think of one: there are hams seriously dedicated to public service and EmCom, but their numbers are small, and I don't think that hams have enough of a claim on the government's pool of good will to warrant being given special privileges to rescind contract provisions which we don't like. I've written about this before, and it's as applicable to this debate as to arguments about what frequency assignments we're "entitled to", or being excepted from the laws against having a radio that can listen to the police channels, or to getting a discount on vanity license plates. I'm open to suggestions, but I don't see how ham radio can dig itself out of the hole that changing technology and computer-synthesized frequency-agile public safety radio networks have put us in. * It's not enough to say that we know Morse code: even if it were still required, it wouldn't be relevant. *It's not enough to say that we know things that others don't: the expertise which used to be required to make disparate networks and radios inter-operate has been programmed into LSIC chips inside public safety transceivers, and changing them to form a new team is a matter of a few minutes time. * It's not enough to claim that we can carry messages: public safety agencies have had the capacity to communicate outside of disaster areas for years, and "Heatlh and Welfare" traffic is a "feel good" capability that doesn't translate into votes. I'm not saying that ham radio is dead: that's not the question here. The question is if "we" deserve special consideration from the government because we're hams. Look, guys, Pandora left a box behind! Bill, W1AC -- Bill Horne (Filter QRM to email me directly) |
HOA and CC&R agreements.
On 10/13/2011 5:29 PM, Jeffrey Angus wrote:
I see this month's edition of QST has yet another series of articles on how to violate the terms of the contracts people sign when they move into a housing development. Jeff-1.0 wa6fwi Personally.. I'm very much against those "Covenants" as they are called.. I mean.. If I buy a plot of land.. Short of laws, it's MY property. My Castle as it were. and the neighbors should not be able to "outlaw" that which the city, county and state allow. -- Nothing adds Excitement like something that is none of your business. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1831 / Virus Database: 2092/4569 - Release Date: 10/23/11 |
HOA and CC&R agreements.
On 10/15/2011 1:11 AM, Phil Kane wrote:
On Fri, 14 Oct 2011 12:21:06 EDT, Bill wrote: 1. CC&R's or other homeowner agreements may or may not obligate homeowner to avoid erecting separate antenna structures, but you don't know that they specifically prohibit the use of concealed antennas for amateur radio. FCC rulings in several cases have held that HOA regulations or CC&Rs can prohibit erection of antennas on property that they have jurisdiction over, but only the FCC can determine who and where radio transmitters can be operated. -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane ARRL Volunteer Counsel email: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net But unless the HOA or CC*R are made clear at time of purchase.. I mean when I bought my house they gave me a pile of papers.. I'm not a lwayer,, How do I ,now of there were any "restrictions" beyond city ordinances and state law? (Actually... I did read them rather closely, no restrictions) But I also do my own taxes, Understand IBM owner's manuals and other things that are not supposed to be possible for people at my level of education. -- Nothing adds Excitement like something that is none of your business. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1831 / Virus Database: 2092/4569 - Release Date: 10/23/11 |
HOA and CC&R agreements.
On 10/18/11 9:22 PM, Bill Horne wrote:
I'm not saying that ham radio is dead: that's not the question here. The question is if "we" deserve special consideration from the government because we're hams. I agree with your contention. No, ham radio is not dead . . . but we cannot expect any special treatment based on knowledge or abilities that we can provide. Part of this is progress in technology and part of it is our own fault. Developments in technology have reduced the need for what we can offer. Mother Nature still reminds us that our fine technology is at her pleasure, but not often. Hurricane Katrina illustrated the frailty of modern communications, but it also illustrated how things have changed in the role of ham radio in disasters. We no longer are a significant carrier of health and welfare traffic. There are groups that do a good job of public service and obtaining recognition, but they're rare and getting rarer. The general public, and by extension the legislators who make our laws, perceive ham radio in the same way that they knew Citizens Band in its day, and that perception is painfully accurate. If we don't provide a benefit to the public, why should the public make any effort to reward us? 73, Steve KB9X |
HOA and CC&R agreements.
On Mon, 24 Oct 2011 11:27:41 EDT, Steve Bonine wrote:
Hurricane Katrina illustrated the frailty of modern communications, but it also illustrated how things have changed in the role of ham radio in disasters. We no longer are a significant carrier of health and welfare traffic. Or a backup for public safety or other "commercial" communications. -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net |
HOA and CC&R agreements.
On Mon, 24 Oct 2011 00:33:16 EDT, John Davis
wrote: But unless the HOA or CC*R are made clear at time of purchase.. I mean when I bought my house they gave me a pile of papers.. I'm not a lwayer,, How do I ,now of there were any "restrictions" beyond city ordinances and state law? (Actually... I did read them rather closely, no restrictions) It's called "due diligence" - determine what you are looking for and see if it is (or is not) there or anywhere else. With all due respect, if someone cannot do it for themself, they need to have a professional such as your real estate agent or attorney do it for them just as they have a professional do a title search. -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane ARRL Volunteer Counsel email: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net |
HOA and CC&R agreements.
On Mon, 24 Oct 2011 00:32:39 EDT, John Davis
wrote: If I buy a plot of land.. Short of laws, it's MY property. Subject to any provisions or terms of the sale agreement. That's what deed restrictions (CC&Rs) are all about. I don't like deed restrictions that limit ham antennas, and I devote my professional skills to assisting buyers to understand that they are there and how they apply or don't apply to a ham antenna installation before they finalize the purchase, but short of state or Federal intervention, they are there. In California we tried to have the courts invalidate them just as racial restrictions are invalid, but the Court of Appeal said "no way". Ditto for stretching PRB-1 to cover them. We tried...we tried..... (the case was Hotz v Rich, 1992) -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane ARRL Volunteer Counsel email: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net |
HOA and CC&R agreements.
In article ,
Phil Kane wrote: Hurricane Katrina illustrated the frailty of modern communications, but it also illustrated how things have changed in the role of ham radio in disasters. We no longer are a significant carrier of health and welfare traffic. Or a backup for public safety or other "commercial" communications. I think that depends, to a very significant degree, on how well organized and trained we are, and how well integrated with the local emergency-response community. A randomly-selected gang of hams, with their radios but with no specific tranining or organization or ability to work as a group, is not likely (in my opinion) to be very useful in times of emergency. They won't know how to figure out what the local governments need in terms of emergency communications, they won't know where to go or who to talk with, they won't be set up with any sort of predictable communications plan in advance, etc. If they show up at the location of a disaster or emergency, they'll probably be treated as "loose cannons" by the police, fire department, other government representatives, etc. and asked to go away and let the professionals do their job. At best they'll be treated like any other "convergent volunteers" of unknown capability and reliability. On the other hand... I believe that local ham groups, if well organized and trained, working in close cooperation with local governments and emergency-response teams, can be a very valuable asset, and see as such by government organizations. I have the good fortune to live in a city (and county) which has some very effective arrangements of that sort. We *have* been called out by the county on at least one occasion in the past few years, to serve as backup communicators for the police/fire infrastructure (somebody sabotaged several fiber-optic cables and knocked out all of the telephones and cellphones in south Santa Clara County back in 2009). I still have a very nice thank-you letter from the city manager of Morgan Hill. One area in which our service has been particularly useful to the cities is our ability to act as "eyes and ears" during the first few hours after a disaster. We can provide the city emergency manager with a quick overview of damage (e.g. after an earthquake, or during a winter storm with flooding) throughout the city, within 15 minutes or so, via neighborhood walkthroughs and "windshield survey" drive-by summaries. This helps the city figure out where their (strictly limited) police and fire resources are best utilized. It would take the city hours, if not days, to do this just with their own personnel... and the city governments view this as a very valuable service for us to provide. If hams want to be treated as being worthy of some special treatment, then I believe that this must be earned, through practical demonstration and through active cooperation and training. It *can* be done, but it doesn't come for free. It's not the "ham radio" per se that's important (although the privileges are very useful)... it's the fact that we're trained, dependable communicators willing to serve. -- Dave Platt AE6EO Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! |
HOA and CC&R agreements.
On 10/24/11 3:39 PM, Dave Platt wrote:
In , Phil wrote: Hurricane Katrina illustrated the frailty of modern communications, but it also illustrated how things have changed in the role of ham radio in disasters. We no longer are a significant carrier of health and welfare traffic. Or a backup for public safety or other "commercial" communications. I think that depends, to a very significant degree, on how well organized and trained we are, and how well integrated with the local emergency-response community. Agree completely. The "well integrated" part is especially important. The relationships must be forged before the event. I have the good fortune to live in a city (and county) which has some very effective arrangements of that sort. And I have the bad fortune to live in an area where the situation is exactly the opposite. Perhaps I should be able to remedy this situation, and I tried for a while but failed. I do not know whether that failure is a result of my shortcomings, the local ham population, or both. We *have* been called out by the county on at least one occasion in the past few years, Our local emergency management people made a valiant effort to work with the local radio club for several years, even to the point of holding fundraisers to finance the local repeaters. Their thanks for that was a failure to install the purchased gear and a lack of response when the local club was called upon to assist with communications related to a search operation. They learned; we taught them. If hams want to be treated as being worthy of some special treatment, then I believe that this must be earned, through practical demonstration and through active cooperation and training. It *can* be done, but it doesn't come for free. Exactly. It takes good organizers and people who care. We are missing one or both of those in this geographic area. It's not the "ham radio" per se that's important (although the privileges are very useful)... it's the fact that we're trained, dependable communicators willing to serve. One of the problems with the locals is that they expected exactly the special treatment that they had not earned, acting like prima donnas. They made it excruciatingly clear that the only task they would consider was pure communications, and that it would be done on their terms. 73, Steve KB9X |
HOA and CC&R agreements.
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HOA and CC&R agreements.
In article , Steve Bonine wrote: One of the problems with the locals is that they expected exactly the special treatment that they had not earned, acting like prima donnas. That's not good, and I agree that it's a problem. That sort of attitude can certainly generate some serious negative reactions on the part of the full-time emergency response officials. They made it excruciatingly clear that the only task they would consider was pure communications, and that it would be done on their terms. Well, in our training, we have been told that communications is all we're supposed to do, when we're deployed. This is for two reasons: (1) We may be the only effective communicators at a particular location... that's what we're deployed to do. If we're asked to (e.g.) direct traffic, we're not communicating, and not doing our jobs. [On the other hand, "communicator" is a very broad term. If we're not needed 'on the air' we can be asked to carry messages back and forth in person, or use the phone, or fax, or etc., or to take a public-service radio rather than a ham radio... this is all within our job scope.] (2) We're covered under the California Disaster Service Worker program, which gives us some liability protection and worker's-comp coverage if we're injured (as I mentioned). The rules for this program say that we're covered *only* when we're acting within the scope of our assignment and within the scope of our training, and are properly supervised. If we start doing jobs for which we are not properly trained, we're not covered, and are potentially liable for any damage or harm that we do. If we go off on our own and are out of contact with our supervisors (city or county), then we're not covered (with the exception that a direct order from a sworn law enforcement official takes priority). -- Dave Platt AE6EO Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! |
HOA and CC&R agreements.
In article , Steve Bonine wrote: Developments in technology have reduced the need for what we can offer. Mother Nature still reminds us that our fine technology is at her pleasure, but not often. Hurricane Katrina illustrated the frailty of modern communications, but it also illustrated how things have changed in the role of ham radio in disasters. At a panel discussion about the future of amateur radio at Pacificon (the ARRL Pacific Division convention) a couple of weeks ago, I was struck by the fact that all four speakers--including officials well informed about both national and international trends--said that hams will soon play almost no role in disaster communications. I knew that other services were getting stronger, but I didn't realize that the prospects were going to change that dramatically for us that soon. One person (Chris Imlay?) did mention some nice words from the director of FEMA, which I found he http://www.arrl.org/news/fema-admini...ine-of-defense But there was also discussion of satellite phones that can be set up in minutes basically by pressing a button, and of on-the-fly data networks. From what I heard at the convention, the best hope for helping amateur radio thrive is getting back to its roots of innovation--in particular, by getting hams involved with the Maker movement (and vice versa). In fact, I think the League has something up its sleeve about that. If it works, it could help keep us in the good graces of those who dish out frequencies and make rules about antennas. Patty N6BIS |
HOA and CC&R agreements.
On 10/24/2011 11:35 PM, Patty Winter wrote:
In , Steve wrote: Developments in technology have reduced the need for what we can offer. Mother Nature still reminds us that our fine technology is at her pleasure, but not often. Hurricane Katrina illustrated the frailty of modern communications, but it also illustrated how things have changed in the role of ham radio in disasters. At a panel discussion about the future of amateur radio at Pacificon (the ARRL Pacific Division convention) a couple of weeks ago, I was struck by the fact that all four speakers--including officials well informed about both national and international trends--said that hams will soon play almost no role in disaster communications. I knew that other services were getting stronger, but I didn't realize that the prospects were going to change that dramatically for us that soon. [snip] But there was also discussion of satellite phones that can be set up in minutes basically by pressing a button, and of on-the-fly data networks. The hardest part of keeping our hobby relevant is that we must admit there is sometimes nothing we can do. Elected officials are much more likely to spend money for commercial solutions recommended by their subordinates, than for a volunteer force they cannot quantify or inventory. Sometimes we get help from emergency responders: municipal budget battles are harder-fought now, and civil servants are more receptive to the idea of "free" help, but hams have to be realistic about what is possible and what is not, and there are too many among us (I was once one) who feel that we're an irreplaceable link in a communications chain that no longer exists. It's up to us to adapt to the system that is in use now, and to become a part of that system which its "owners" grow to depend on. Once we earn that trust, we'll have allies in higher places, but there's a lot of catching up to do before that happens. From what I heard at the convention, the best hope for helping amateur radio thrive is getting back to its roots of innovation--in particular, by getting hams involved with the Maker movement (and vice versa). In fact, I think the League has something up its sleeve about that. If it works, it could help keep us in the good graces of those who dish out frequencies and make rules about antennas. I know little about the "Maker movement": according to Wikipedia, it's a Do-It-Yourself paradigm that has a magazine at its center. I applaud the concept, but I'm old enough to be cautious when counting chickens that haven't yet hatched, and I hope that those in charge of keeping our society intact after a disaster are hard-nosed about what is possible and what is not. As much as I might like to fantasize about being the ham who saves the day by making a homebrew rig work with homemade batteries, I know that the last thing any disaster preparedness professional wants is a single point of failure, be it man or machine. It's nice to watch someone make a cabinet on TV and think "I could do that", but it's quite another to hold a router or to arrange a dovetail fence: it's important to have a "can do" attitude, but we need to bring "we already did that" experience to the table as well. In the past, long-distance disaster communications meant you had to have ham operators. Those days are gone: planning or preparing for a day when hams have to do-it-all-ourselves is self-defeating, because it invites both criticism of our capabilities and hard questions about whether we're trying to be members of a team or "Lone Rangers" out to grab a lot of glory and ride off into the sunset. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but I think our hobby is still in the "Denial" phase of dealing with this crisis. We need to accept that the communications world has changed, and adapt ourselves to the current technologies and the current methods before we'll be taken seriously again. Bill, W1AC -- Bill Horne (Remove QRM from my address to write to me directly) |
HOA and CC&R agreements.
On 10/25/2011 8:18 PM, Bill Horne wrote:
In the past, long-distance disaster communications meant you had to have ham operators. Those days are gone: As I see how Amateurs are currently looked at by public safety people: The cost, both in materials and in time for public safety spectrum is very high. The amateur bands are a ready pool of "FREE spectrum" if it's approached correctly. The same holds true for full time employees for "just in case." And Amateurs are a ready pool of "FREE employees" as the need arises. Now, here's where the problem lies. ESPECIALLY in the event of an emergency. The health and law enforcement types do NOT want some fool running around thinking he's a cop. (Or a paramedic). Nor do they want to deal with some buffoon that's really proud of the "kit" he's thrown together out of cobbled swap meet leftovers. And they most certainly do NOT want people with ego problems. What they want are people that follow instructions, that have RELIABLE equipment and if it's a group of people, that they can all work together as a team. Jeff-1.0 wa6fwi -- "Everything from Crackers to Coffins" |
HOA and CC&R agreements.
In article , Bill Horne wrote: On 10/24/2011 11:35 PM, Patty Winter wrote: From what I heard at the convention, the best hope for helping amateur radio thrive is getting back to its roots of innovation--in particular, by getting hams involved with the Maker movement (and vice versa). In fact, I think the League has something up its sleeve about that. If it works, it could help keep us in the good graces of those who dish out frequencies and make rules about antennas. I know little about the "Maker movement": according to Wikipedia, it's a Do-It-Yourself paradigm that has a magazine at its center. I think there is a magazine, but the heart of the movement is the independent workshops across the country. My friend Wayne, KH6WZ, had an interesting article about the Maker community and its implications for amateur radio in last May's _CQ_. As much as I might like to fantasize about being the ham who saves the day by making a homebrew rig work with homemade batteries, I was changing subjects there. I wasn't talking about the Maker community in regards to emergency communications, but rather to technical innovation. As I noted, we're needed less and less in the former, but I think we still have a lot to offer for the latter. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but I think our hobby is still in the "Denial" phase of dealing with this crisis. We need to accept that the communications world has changed, and adapt ourselves to the current technologies and the current methods before we'll be taken seriously again. It's happening. We've got people in the amateur radio community who are professionals in developing networking protocols, weak-signal detection software, etc. etc. They're developing software for amateur radio as well as commercial and research applications. Other hams can get involved with projects like those. Patty |
HOA and CC&R agreements.
On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 23:13:07 EDT, Jeffrey Angus
wrote: What they want are people that follow instructions, that have RELIABLE equipment and if it's a group of people, that they can all work together as a team. Add to that individuals or a team that has been trained in the needs of that agency and been vetted by the agency as suitable. As I keep saying, no one gets into our EOC without agency ID. -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net |
HOA and CC&R agreements.
On Oct 24, 2:37 pm, Phil Kane wrote:
On Mon, 24 Oct 2011 11:27:41 EDT, Steve Bonine wrote: Hurricane Katrina illustrated the frailty of modern communications, but it also illustrated how things have changed in the role of ham radio in disasters. We no longer are a significant carrier of health and welfare traffic. Or a backup for public safety or other "commercial" communications. (The following, while just opinion, is probably a major heresy.) And that minor role is just fine. in the last ten years or so, there has been a major attempt to mutate amateur radio into some sort of official adjunct to emergency communications. And let's just say it has had mixed success. We were looking at background checks, including financial. While the financial part was dropped, it surely set the tone. The emergency types came in fast and hard, and they had no illusions that Amateur Radio was anything else but emergency ops - and if grudging acceptance was afforded, acknowledged that some Hams messed with unimportant stuff like contesting, DX, ane electronic design. But they "knew" exactly what Ham radio was for, and I always caught the undercurrent that they thought most of us were a bit foolish. We still get a lot of that in the discourse. I sat at meetings where some guy from some emergency outfit comes in and tells us that since by nature, everything they do is a matter of life and death, therefore it's always an emergency, that they have unrestricted priority over our repeater system. Basically that our repeater system was now theirs. He was wrong of course, but that's my point. There are people out there who think that way. A local Ham wastrying for a radio check to see if his HT was making it into one of our repeater satellite voting relays a few weeks ago. One of the emergency Op types came back to him, and told him he was coming in okay. Then the testing Ham moved, and his signal got a little scratchy. The EO guy noted the dropoff in clarity, the testing Ham said that it was just his HT he had in case of emergencies. Well, that started the ball rolling. The Emergency guy starts to deliver a 5 minute lecture to the other Ham about how people shouldn't be using HT's for much of anything. The testing Ham noted that he already had a sufficiently powerful setup. But the Emergency Op wasn't done yet. He went on another tirade noting that although he'd only been a Ham for a very short time, his job was to show other Hams that they were technically pretty backwards, and even the older Hams, because it was his "experience" that older Hams just didnn't keep up. He ended with some bizarre comment about how he thinks that his pointing out other peoples shortcomings makes the world a better place. I thought I'd have a little fun with him. I called in, and noted that it was good to have a technically astute Ham on the air, then tried to involve him in a discussion of the technical aspects of our repeater. Turned out the limits of his techical abilities were to get a 50 watt radio, put up a J-Pole, and mash the PTT button. But we can compre anecdotes all day. Then emergency employees were getting technician licenses as an end- around to get employees using the radio instead of volunteers. Unfortunately, many of the employees thought that the amateur frequencies were a sort of back channel for their use. Many were disappointed to find that we had some rules and restrictions. As far as I am concerned, the role of Hams in an emergency situation is that if there is a Ham in the area where the disaster is, he or she might use their station to relay messages into areas that might be coordinating help. That's enough. The idea that we provide someone to fill a seat at an EC is sort of illogical anyhow. Why would the EC not have a trained professional in that seat? Are all the others there unpaid volunteers? If I were running one of these places, I'd have someone filling that seat that I was a supervisor over. |
HOA and CC&R agreements.
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HOA and CC&R agreements.
In article ,
Jeffrey Angus wrote: Now, here's where the problem lies. ESPECIALLY in the event of an emergency. The health and law enforcement types do NOT want some fool running around thinking he's a cop. (Or a paramedic). Nor do they want to deal with some buffoon that's really proud of the "kit" he's thrown together out of cobbled swap meet leftovers. And they most certainly do NOT want people with ego problems. What they want are people that follow instructions, that have RELIABLE equipment and if it's a group of people, that they can all work together as a team. Yup. That's how I see it from here. One of the big changes in the emergency-response community, over the past couple of decades, has been the development of some standardized organization techniques for emergency responders. As I understand it, a lot of these changes grew out of what was learned in California during the response to the Oakland Hills fire in 1991. To put it simply, that event was a Charlie Foxtrot - lots of official emergency responders were activated, from a large number of jurisdictions, and they had a *terrible* time working together under emergency conditions. This was due to a number of factors. Different jurisdictional groups (e.g. city fire, county fire, state, etc.) had different organizational structures (who-reports-to-whom) with different job titles and job descriptions, they referred to their firefighting equipment with different terms (or sometimes with the same term, which meant very different things to different groups), and they had no agreement in advance as to who would be commanding whom. There were multiple different chains-of-command, with each new group trying to coordinate itself with numerous others. Add a large dash of "incompatible radio systems and protocols" to this, and what resulted was a recipe for serious confusion and ineffective use of resources. I believe it's generally accepted that people died unnecessarily, because the emergency responders weren't able to work together as efficiently as was needed. What has come out of this is a reliance on the Incident Command System structure (California has its Standardized Emergency Management System variant, and the Feds have the National Incident Management System). A big part of this involves using a standard command-and-reporting structure, and standardized (pre-defined) sets of resources, which can include communications teams. This way, if one jurisdiction needs some communicators, they can ask another jurisdiction for one or more teams of various types, and have confidence that they can know the capabilities and limits of those teams pretty reliably. Around our county, anybody who wants to be part of ARES/RACES, and actually be deployable even in their own local jurisdiction, is expected/required to be trained in ICS (we have some state-certified instructors who teach classes periodically). Anyone who wants to be deployable outside their own city (a "Mutual Aid Communicator") has to take further instruction in ICS and emergency response (FEMA has some good on-line courses, available for free) and must be qualified by their city EC as having sufficient training and experience, and a suitable "Go Kit" of radio equipment and personal supplies to allow for safe and successful deployment. We've got an advanced training program for our MACs, in which they can demonstrate their qualification for specific sorts of deployment... Field assignment, Net Control positions, Shadowing, Packet, and so forth. As a result, if a city asks for communication aid, and says that they need field operators for deployment at a dozen shelters and fire stations, and Net Control operators for two or three tactical and resource nets, we can deploy people that we *know* can do the job (individually and as part of a team), because they've already demonstrated that ability. The various city and county Emergency Managers appreciate this! Hams who show up "spontaneously", during an emergency, saying "I have a radio and I want to help"... well, most likely they'll be treated like any other volunteer of unknown capabilities and reliability. They'll be sent down the street to the "convergent volunteer" center for classification and possible assignment, just like any other helpful citizen who showed up and (e.g.) offered to fill sand-bags during a flood. If we don't know them, we can't depend on them in a pinch. At best, they might be sent out as a secondary-support operator, to serve alongside one or more trained and qualified team members. In our city, at least, we would *not* send out an unknown operator by him/herself. All of this organization and training takes work - often a lot of it - well in advance of any emergency. If we want to actually be effective, and able to help, it's *necessary*. http://www.scc-ares-races.org/ has a lot of information on our programs... the "Mutual Aid Communicator" pages probably have the best discussion of our training process. -- Dave Platt AE6EO Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! |
HOA and CC&R agreements.
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