Cecil Moore wrote:

wrote:
How they compare to the current exams is a matter of opinion. IMHO
the old exams covered fewer subjects but covered them in much more
detail.

Having received a pink ticket from the FCC as a teenager in 1959 for the
spurious emissions of a homebrew HF transmitter I think I was more dangerous in
those days, even after having passed that 'more detailed' technical General
test.

That's probably true. So do "we" want new hams to
have a broad-shallow knowledge or a narrow-deep
knowledge?

Does it make a difference? Virtually everyone now is running commercially built
relatively foolproof equipment (appliances). Chances are way better these days
that the stuff is clean even when operated by a non-technical person (most
hams).

I suggest the former would be more valuable

Memorizing the regulations makes sense, but having to memorize the engineering
stuff is just plain silly. Especially with no real understanding behind it.
Course I'm still operating under a license obtained under Bash... 8-O

to the "service".

Service? This is a hobby that on average probably has less technical people than
those in the RC model aircraft crowd.

How bad this is depends on how you perceive the goal of the exam, and
what you expect a newly-licensed amateur radio operator to be able to do.


Considering that the FCC lets us build or modify our transmitters, we at
least should pass a test to demonstrate that we are at least aware of
the responsibilities of not spewing RF trash all over the radio
frequency spectrum, messing up the bands for other users.

AaronJ wrote:
Service? This is a hobby that on average probably has less technical people than
those in the RC model aircraft crowd.

From Webster's: "service - an administrative division,
as of a government"
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

"Mike Coslo" wrote:

Up for a challenge? Memorize the Extra test, all 800 some questions
in the pool. Then let's take a test. I'll give you the test question
number, and you give me the letter answer. Since memorization presumably
has nothing to do with the knowledge, this should be easy as the new
applicants have in taking the so called dumbed down tests

That isn't how memorization works.

While there may be some people who "memorize" the question and answer, in
reality what most people are referring to when they talk about
"memorization" is in fact something more akin to "word association" or
"familiarity".

All one has to do is read the question pool enough, or drill long enough
using a computer program, that they will "recognize" the correct answer when
they see it. They don't actually "memorize" the question pool per se, such
that they know the answer to question ### is AAA. No, instead, they simply
become familiar enough with it that they can recognize the correct answer to
the question, much the same way you become familiar with many things in life
without actually "memorizing" them.


A lot of Technicians I know used the "Now You're Talking" books.
Lots of stuff in there that prepares you for radio operations.

When I got my tech license, I used the Gorden West book. That's not how I
passed the exams though.


Do you think that most new hams get their license, then hire people
to put their stations together after they buy their "Yaecomwood"
boxes?

"putting a station" together these days involves little more than calling
HRO, unpacking the boxes UPS delivers, and plugging everything in. Not much
theory required there.

73
KH6HZ

Mike Coslo wrote:
wrote in news:1169319231.725804.81990
@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

Mike Coslo wrote:
wrote in
ups.com:


Want to see a summary of the old study guides, and some sample
questions? I'll post them if you are interested.

Always am.

Here's a sample - lots more to come.

From the 1976 ARRL License Manual:

Study Question #31:

Draw a schematic diagram of a circuit having the following components:

(a) battery with internal resistance,
(b) resistive load,
(c) voltmeter,
(d) ammeter

.
Study Question #32:

From the values indicated by the meters in the above circuit, how can
the value of the resistive load be determined? How can the power
consumed by the load be determined?


Study Question #33:
In the above circuit, what must the value of the resistive load be in
order for the maximum power to be delivered from the battery?

I'm assuming that if the applicant recieves question number 32 or
33 that they also recieved number 31?

That's the study guide, not the actual exam.

We really don't know what the old exams were actually like (actual
questions), except for the memories of those who took them, because FCC
kept them secret. All we really have are the study guides, which are
not the same thing at all.

Study Question #34:
Draw the schematic diagram of an RF power amplifier circuit having the
following components:

(a) triode vacuum tube,
(b) pi-network output tank
(c) high voltage source
(d) plate-current meter
(e) plate-voltage meter,
(f) rf chokes,
(g) bypass capacitors, coupling capacitor.

Yup, that was in the study guide that I looked at.

For the General - not the Extra.

Study Question #35:
What is the proper tune-up procedure for the above circuit?

did they get both questions again?

In the study guide.

These are just a sample. They're not the exact questions that
were on the old exams.

The actual exam was multiple choice, and would show a schematic of the
amplifier circuit - close, but not exactly like the one shown inthe
license manual - and had 5 of the components labelled "a" thru "e".

The question would be something like,
"which is the coupling capacitor?"
"which is an rf choke?"
"what is the function of the capacitor labelled ''d' in the circuit
above?"

So you would have to learn the circuit, the components in it, and
their names
and functions. Then the actual exam would use a completely different
format from the study guide.

Is that supposed to be difficult?

It's not about difficulty at all. It's about what knowledge is needed
to pass the test.

Look at my postings and I do not think you will find me saying I think
the old tests were "harder" or "more difficult". What you will see is
me saying they were better.

Big difference.

IMHO, one of the problems in amateur radio today is too much emphasis
on passing the test, and not enough on what to do with it. IMHO, a
one-day Tech license course is too likely to produce a person with a
license who doesn't know enough about how to get on the air and use the
license.

Of course Elmering is part of the answer. And you're looking at the
most powerful Elmering tool ever invented. But it has to be used - by
both the Elmers and those needing help. Read the various reflectors
(much better behaved than Usenet) and you'll see a lot of that going
on.

If you had a basic knowledge of
the circuit, you would be able to guess at the part names - if you
didn't already know..

If you had a basic knowledge of the circuit, you wouldn't be guessing.

The above questions and accompanying diagrams took up just a small
part of one page in the study guide. But look how much material was
covered!

How they compare to the current exams is a matter of opinion. IMHO
the old exams covered fewer subjects but covered them in much more
detail.

Which of course means that the applicant knew what to concentrate
on. sometimes I think that what a lot of Hams want is for the test
questions to be both very much in depth, and completely random, with the
questions produced on-site by the steely eyed proctor. ;^)

Part of the old *process* (not the test content as much as how it was
given) was that you only had general areas of study.

Agreed on your point about the increased number of potential
subjects to cover in the present day tests. I suspect the only way to
reconcile that with your (testing wishes?) would be to concurrently test
to the old time depth, with the increased subject matter? I doubt that
quadrupleing the number of test questions would sit very well with
anyone except those who don't have to take the tests any more.

That's not my wish at all.

What I'd like to see is more emphasis on the basics of radio (Ohm's
Law, basic antennas, how circuits actually work), particularly in the
Technician and General exams. Leave the more-exotic, niche stuff for
the Extra.

And regardless of what anyone other than FCC wants, both the number of
tests and the number of questions for each license class dropped
dramatically in 2000.

One more point:

The old Novice was easy to get. Its written was very basic, and so it
had a small study guide. But that license also conveyed extremely
limited privileges! On top of that, it wasn't a permanent license - you
had one shot at the Novice. So there was a real incentive to learn.

Comparing the old Novice to the current Tech is apples-and-oranges.

--

How "hard" were the old exams? How much did the "old timers" actually
know?

Here's one story - you tell me:

Back in the late 1960s, I knew a young amateur who was a Technician.
This was in the days when the Advanced had just been reopened for new
issues, and the Advanced written test was reportedly the technical
equivalent of at least the Second 'Phone, if not the First 'Phone,
except for the regulations part, of course.

In those days, those who had both amateur and commercial licenses
usually said the technical part of the tests needed to get the Amateur
Extra (three exams, General.Advanced /Extra) was at least the technical
equivalent of the 'First Phone.

One summer day this young amateur, who would enter 9th grade that fall,
went to the local FCC office to take the 13 wpm code and upgrade to
General. (No additional written test was needed back then, because the
Tech and General used the same written test in those days). He passed,
and was about to go home and await his new license, when the FCC
examiner suggested he try the Advanced written. (He couldn't try the
Extra because of the "time-in-grade" requirement back then).

This young amateur hadn't studied for the Advanced written at all. He
knew some radio theory and practice, and the regulations, all of it
self-taught. He'd only been a ham about a year or two, but even a 14
year old back then knew better than to say no to The Man From FCC.

So he sat down and tried the Advanced - and passed easily. Not because
of some study guide or other, or some memorization tricks, but because
of knowing some radio theory and the regs.

So while some may have said they were "hard" and some say the OTs
didn't know much, the truth was somewhat different.

73 de Jim, N2EY

wrote in message
ups.com...
Mike Coslo wrote:
wrote in
ups.com:


Want to see a summary of the old study guides, and some sample
questions? I'll post them if you are interested.

Always am.

Here's a sample - lots more to come.

From the 1976 ARRL License Manual:

Study Question #31:

Well, I can see why those types of questions are no longer being used. It's
more about who is giving the tests than it is about who is taking it.

Every tried grading essay questions?

KH6HZ wrote:
All one has to do is read the question pool enough, or drill long enough
using a computer program, that they will "recognize" the correct answer when
they see it.

The majority of a grammar school education probably
uses that method of learning.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

"Cecil Moore" wrote:

The majority of a grammar school education probably
uses that method of learning.

Not sure of your grammer school experience, since you're older than I am,
but mine mainly rested on rote-memorization. Vocabulary, math tables, etc.

"KH6HZ" wrote in message
...
"Mike Coslo" wrote:

Up for a challenge? Memorize the Extra test, all 800 some questions
in the pool. Then let's take a test. I'll give you the test question
number, and you give me the letter answer. Since memorization presumably
has nothing to do with the knowledge, this should be easy as the new
applicants have in taking the so called dumbed down tests

That isn't how memorization works.

While there may be some people who "memorize" the question and answer, in
reality what most people are referring to when they talk about
"memorization" is in fact something more akin to "word association" or
"familiarity".

All one has to do is read the question pool enough, or drill long enough
using a computer program, that they will "recognize" the correct answer
when they see it. They don't actually "memorize" the question pool per se,
such that they know the answer to question ### is AAA. No, instead, they
simply become familiar enough with it that they can recognize the correct
answer to the question, much the same way you become familiar with many
things in life without actually "memorizing" them.



Besides memorizing that way will lead to certain failure. The questions and
answers on the exam are worded the same way BUT the answers are allowed to
be in a different order and they are. The reason is to prevent people
memorizing the A, B, C, or D.

Dee, N8UZE

"KH6HZ" wrote in message
...
"Cecil Moore" wrote:

The majority of a grammar school education probably
uses that method of learning.

Not sure of your grammer school experience, since you're older than I am,
but mine mainly rested on rote-memorization. Vocabulary, math tables, etc.


That is because for the material being taught in grammar school, the rote
memorization approach is probably the most appropriate. There's really no
other way to learn math tables except repetition via memorization.

Dee, N8UZE