|
Quantity Over Quality (Was: Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...)
"Bob Brock" wrote:
And that was my point. If it reaches the stage where radio shack (or Wal-Mart) has jumped on the band wagon, we may need to worry about overpopulating the bands. I just simply do not see it happening. Most RatShacks are too small to carry a wide range of ham gear. Furthermore, the per-capita number of hams in most areas is too small. Certain RatShacks may do ok selling ham gear, but as a whole? I doubt it. Heck, how much demand is there for RatShack's selling of FRS and CB Gear? Not very much, I believe, based on the very limited (if any) selection I've seen in the 4 stores I've frequented over the past few years. 73 kh6hz |
Quantity Over Quality (Was: Unwritten policy and the intent ofthe average amateur ...)
robert casey wrote:
you'll find the sales people woefully short on product knowledge. That's been the case for as long as I can remember, since the 70's. The term "sales droid" was coined with Radio Shack in mind. When Cincinnati had one Radio Shack store, the store manager actually knew something about parts that he carried. The folks in the Lafayette, Allied and Olson stores had a number of people who were knowledgeable. A couple of the electronic distributors I worked for had product managers who knew several lines inside and out. They also hired inside telephone sales people and counter people who were very knowledgeable about components. At one of them, the sales manager, two of the outside salesmen, three of the four inside sales people and two of the counter men were hams. the moment, RadShack is like a cellular phone store which pushes batteries. "Whatever you wanted, we have a cell phone for you!" Yep. The time before my last trip, I went in for wire wrap #30 wire. It is great for winding impedance matching transformers on binocular ferrite cores--much better than enamel wire. The salesman told me that he didn't think they carried it. I went to the wall and grabbed it. He then attempted to interest me in a cell phone. When I told him that I wasn't interested, he began offering batteries. This last trip was for the F connectors. Again I received a pitch on cell phones and batteries. When Radio Shack made a decision to push amateur radio gear ten or fifteen years back, it did so mostly with Radio Shack branded equipment which was short on features and rather shoddily made. It pushed a few 2m and 70cm FM HT's and mobile transceivers and a few niche market rigs like the low power 10m transceivers. The sales people were, again, woefully short on product knowledge. Their 2m hand held was actually decent. I have one. Not as rugged as an old Motorola HT220, though. User interface wasn't that great, but the Icom IC-02AT was worse. The radio Shack rig did had an excellent tight band receiver front end. Less intermod issues. You're correct. The 2m mobile rigs were not as good as the one hand held transceiver. RadShack also carried a number of brand name 2m and 70cm antennas along with Radio Shack branded antennas. The fact remained that if one went into a Radio Shack store with questions about any of the amateur radio equipment, it was highly unlikely to find a single sales person who had 1) the right answer or 2) any answer other than "I don't know". I contrast that to the guys at Circuit City stores I've visited. The sales people seem to have had good product knowledge training. Dave K8MN |
Quantity Over Quality (Was: Unwritten policy and the intent ofthe average amateur ...)
KH6HZ wrote:
"Dave Heil" wrote: I disagree, Mike. Radio Shack had its roots in selling amateur equipment when it was a Boston firm decades back. [...] If Radio decided to sell a wide variety of amateur radio equipment of assorted brands and it gave adequate sales training to its staff, it'd be a big player. I honestly doubt it. There's a way for Radio Shack to put the "radio" back in its name. Right now it is a company in need of a purpose. If it doesn't change, it is going to disappear or be reincarnated as a bunch of battery and cellular phone kiosks in malls. Ham gear is such a niche market, it isn't cost effective for Radio Shack to offer it at the individual store level. The per-capita number of hams simply doesn't make it viable. There's little reason to carry a $1000+ product (say, a decent HF radio) when you *might* sell 1 a year, if you're lucky. Right. Read on for a way to accomplish it. Sure, in some markets, where there is a densely populated ham concentration, Radio Shack may do good. Or, perhaps offering products mail-order they might do okay. The company has the ability to do both. What it lacks is management with the will and vision to set it up and a good training program for salespeople. RadShack would do well to hire hams as sales people. Would they be able to compete with Yaesu, Kenwood, et al with their own product line? Again, I doubt it. They don't have to. All they'd need do is offer those brands. They could include some RadShack brand items if they chose to. Will they be able to compete price-wise with the large mail-order discount places? Again, I seriously doubt it, due to the overhead requirements of each store. That's not right, Mike. R&L Electronics started out thirty years back in a garage full of shelving. The owners, Rita & Larry, began it as a sideline business while Larry was working full time as a machinist. It then moved to a small location in the middle of downtown Hamilton, Ohio. After a number of years, R&L relocated again to an old supermarket the size of an average IGA store. That's where it is still located. R&L *is* one of the big players. It is stuffed with equipment, runs full page QST and CQ ads and meets or beats the prices of HRO or AES. It does this with the one rather small store. It is my honest opinion that ham gear at the retail level is all but extinct. In my earlier comments, I mentioned the Radio Shack might designate one store in a given market area for carrying amateur radio equipment. That'd be the way they could become a player. It would only need folks with product knowledge and stock at those particular stores. The employees of other RadShack outlets would only need know enough to point potential customers to that store. Ham gear at the retail level is what *everybody* is doing. The stores themselves buy at the wholesale level from the manufacturers. We radio amateurs are the retail customers. Dave K8MN |
Quantity Over Quality (Was: Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...)
On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:35:02 GMT, Dave Heil
wrote: Leo wrote: On 29 Jan 2007 23:08:00 -0800, " wrote: From: Bob Brock on Mon, Jan 29 2007 11:10 pm On 29 Jan 2007 16:44:02 -0800, " wrote: On Jan 29, 3:32?pm, Dave Heil wrote: KH6HZ wrote: "Bob Brock" writes: In response to "Dee Flint" : snip Poor Heil doesn't realize he's been controlled every time he tries to control others! :-) Gotta love it...! :-) Right on. Jim and I had a long, long thread going quite some time ago on this very subject ("Owned or free...", IIRC) whereby I attempted to point this very fact out to him. And still, many months later, he continues to correct, proclaim and argue, often in multiple posts daily. Regardless of how quixiotic this pursuit is, the good fight must be fought! You're a selective reader, "Leo". Good old Mr. Wilson, er Len saw my post about Tandy/Radio Shack gobbling up Allied electronics and had to attempt to dazzle me with his expertise. A lengthy treatise including his having been around when Allied came into existence followed. I'd tend to agree, "Dave", if this was an isolated post that was hijacked by mean 'ol Len. It isn't, though - is it? See a pattern? I'll bet you don't! Yessir, Len's a regular puppeteer. He sure is! Dave K8MN 73, Leo |
Quantity Over Quality (Was: Unwritten policy and the intent ofthe average amateur ...)
Leo wrote:
On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:35:02 GMT, Dave Heil wrote: Leo wrote: On 29 Jan 2007 23:08:00 -0800, " wrote: From: Bob Brock on Mon, Jan 29 2007 11:10 pm On 29 Jan 2007 16:44:02 -0800, " wrote: On Jan 29, 3:32?pm, Dave Heil wrote: KH6HZ wrote: "Bob Brock" writes: In response to "Dee Flint" : snip Poor Heil doesn't realize he's been controlled every time he tries to control others! :-) Gotta love it...! :-) Right on. Jim and I had a long, long thread going quite some time ago on this very subject ("Owned or free...", IIRC) whereby I attempted to point this very fact out to him. And still, many months later, he continues to correct, proclaim and argue, often in multiple posts daily. Regardless of how quixiotic this pursuit is, the good fight must be fought! You're a selective reader, "Leo". Good old Mr. Wilson, er Len saw my post about Tandy/Radio Shack gobbling up Allied electronics and had to attempt to dazzle me with his expertise. A lengthy treatise including his having been around when Allied came into existence followed. I'd tend to agree, "Dave", if this was an isolated post that was hijacked by mean 'ol Len. Silly ol' Len leapt in with keyboard blazing. Silly ol' Len needed to exhibit his expertise on matters dealing with Allied Electronics. The only problem he had is that was short on information. By the way, my name is Dave. We don't know that yours is Leo. It isn't, though - is it? See a pattern? Isolated post? It doesn't matter to Len. I have seen a pattern in his behavior, "Leo". I'll bet you don't! Yessir, Len's a regular puppeteer. He sure is! Not. Dave K8MN |
Quantity Over Quality (Was: Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...)
On 29 Jan 2007 23:08:00 -0800, " wrote: From: Bob Brock on Mon, Jan 29 2007 11:10 pm On 29 Jan 2007 16:44:02 -0800, " wrote: On Jan 29, 3:32?pm, Dave Heil wrote: KH6HZ wrote: "Bob Brock" writes: Poor Heil doesn't realize he's been controlled every time he tries to control others! :-) Gotta love it...! :-) Right on. Jim and I had a long, long thread going quite some time ago on this very subject ("Owned or free...", IIRC) whereby I attempted to point this very fact out to him. And still, many months later, he continues to correct, proclaim and argue, often in multiple posts daily. Regardless of how quixiotic this pursuit is, the good fight must be fought! Think "Rocky Balboa" as their "role-model" in their heads. [note the geographic nearness of Philadelphia... :-) ] The fanstasy syndrome is, unfortunately, endemic to the human psyche. PR folks earn their living capitalizing on that. CELEBRITES become paragons of just about anything due to PR work. The "audience" confuses the CHARACTER (on-screen) with the real person portraying the character. I am waiting for the first HAM-ACTOR to be featured in QST...how will the League portray him or her? :-) On computer screens the fantasy syndrome can easily "take over" and the God of Radio (in here) is formed, complete with cliques of like-minded "gods" proclaiming "their" greatness, expertise, and "better than the 'inferiors' (not of their clique)." The problem for the group as a whole is that once "IN" that fantasy, their egos refuse to let them admit any wrong-doing...they were "always right" and everyone else disagreeing with them "always wrong." Case in point is Cranky Spanky and his constant "corrections" on minutae, word play (everything "must" be "factual" and "absolutely standard"), history of radio (that he could never have experienced personaly). Ya know (almost paraphrasing 'John Smith I'), after almost two dozen years of computer-modem communications, I'm beginning to wonder if I have seen all the possible basic types...all I see is small variations, sub-sub- genres of basic conditions. The variations vary with the general topic (supposedly) but it all boils down to EGO and "credentialism" and something akin to "the divine right of kings" (to RULE). In a hobby activity. ? For some reason, these guys just don't get it. This personality type seems to be compelled to respond to every 'poke and jab', quite predictably, time after time. It is a classic response to stimulus, right out of your old Psych 101 textbook......If there is, as the old adage goes, "a sucker born every minute", they seem to have a long lifespan. Not always that long. Two regulars in here, high code- rate tested and Titled as "amateur extras" have passed on. Haven't heard of any no-code-test advocates going beyond the ionosphere. They were adamant to their end on the "necessary skills" etc., etc., etc. Some of the gods-of-radio clique have gotten clever in what they consider dialogue. Cranky is really good at the IMPLIED expertise question-challenge: "Len, you don't know all of my education" or "Len, you don't know all the experience I've had with other modes" for two examples. Yes, I don't and Yes, I don't give a ****. What one writes and HOW they write it are the "tell" if anyone has the experience or desire to do something... which lets me know whether anyone really cares to talk about a project or activity. I could care less if their "friends and neighbors" come over to applaud and praise their hobby things. :-) Even a "frankenbox" kluge will look high-tech and mysterious to someone not involved with electronics. shrug I've known that for a long time and don't make it a point to point to "wondrous works" out of my workshop. I do that stuff because I like to to it for me, not "my friends and neighbors" or to earn "credentials" or to tack a (misused) "honours" label of a callsign after my name. Back a while ago we had a friendly little discussion on the old Icom R-70 communications receiver. Cranky and der Robust Oberst had to butt in and attempt to change the subject, apparently on their ever-present need to show me I'm such a newbie, a "nothing" in "radio." :-) I've never claimed that R-70 to be "best in the world" or anything else but reliable. Did a full work-up on it last year and it still meets Icom's stated specs for performance. shrug Those specs were state-of-the- art two decades ago and still are. Heh heh heh...I can turn them on just by mentioning I "paid cash" for it. I did. I earned every penny of that "cash" by working for a living (in regular hours then). I'm still trying to decipher WHY earning a living is such a "moral flaw" to them in regards to radio. :-) It is a lot of fun to crank them up and watch them go, though - must say, I've done it a time or two myself! OK, OK, more than two.... :) No sweat to me. :-) Been there, done that, got so many T-shirts...etc. I'm still expressing (internal) wonder at Herr Oberst and his moral felony charges of NOT GETTING A HAM LICENSE *FIRST*. And, AFTER ALL THIS TIME! Wow! It's practically a charge of "treason!" This "Joe McCarthy" of the newsgroup is really Captain Oblivious to what I've said about my actual interest in RADIO. Not amateur radio but ALL radio. I think it marvelous and got INTO my career because of a fortuitous exposure to big time HF comms when I was young and serving my country in the Army. NO! NOT CORRECT! NOT PROPER! MORAL FLAW OF CHARACTER NOT TO WORSHIP, LOVE, HONOR MORSE CODE! Sigh. Between Cranky and der Oberst they must have denuded whole forests to collect wood in attempting to burn me at the stake for such RELIGIOUS HERESY! :-) [not "environmentally conscious" are they?] Ahem, on 23 Feb 07 comes the beginning of the Great USA Radio Depression, the END OF THE WORLD their imagined little world of morsemanship! I can't wait to hear what these paragons of pompous propriety (amateur style) are going to say afterwards! Already they've been "warning" me to GET A LICENSE! :-) What, to sanctify my US First 'Phone that morphed into a 'GROL' two decades ago and is still ON RECORD at the FCC? [it is lifetime duration now] To sanctify my work experience that began professionally 55 years ago? To sanctify my (short) 33-year professional membership (now a Free Lifetime membership) in the IEEE? Of course! To these "extraordinary gentlemen" (of comic book fame), my terrible treasonous moral impropriety was NOT GETTING A HAM LICENSE *FIRST*! Quick, call US HOMELAND SECURITY! Have me picked up, arrested straightaway as an ENEMY OF THE STATE! Gotta love it. They are more fun than a barrel of red-hatted morse monkeys! Come to think about it, they ARE the little red-hatted morse monkeys dancing to the ARRL organ tunes! :-) Stay warm up there and best regards, |
Quantity Over Quality (Was: Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...)
On 30 Jan 2007 02:14:40 -0800, wrote:
On Jan 29, 1:02?pm, Bob Brock wrote: On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 12:52:16 -0500, "KH6HZ" wrote: "Bob Brock" writes: The economy of scale situation in ham radio today is mail order/ internet sales, plus hamfest/conventions. because they're the most competitive for most things. Some manufacturers sell don't sell through dealers at all - Ten Tec and Elecraft are two examples. Don't confuse lack of customers with economy of scale. Those little guys can't compete with the big boys any better than the local shops can compete with Wal-Mart. True enough. But, in contrast, my wife could have bought her iRobot set from Sears. [Sears began in Chicago, too...:-) ] But, iRobot sold a package of Roomba and Scooba DIRECT for slightly less than what Sears was charging. Note: The iRobot products owe their workability to solid-state ELECTRONICS, especially microprocessors. Modern-day HF transceivers owe their workability to solid-state ELECTRONICS, especially microprocessors. Wal-Mart, Target, K-Mart, Sears, J.C.Penney all sell direct through the Internet. Nobody (except John Smith I) seems to recognize the truly HUGE market revolution brought on by the Internet. Amazon.com did...[push, push] I see that, in certain instances, you do understand economy of scale. Why you reject other identical instances is a mystery to me. We shall now pause while Cranky thinks up a proper rationalization of how he is "always correct"... :-) How many of us first became aware of the existence of local amateurs by seeing their antennas? I wouldn't know since that doesn't apply to me. I became interested in ham radio and SWL when I met the guy who came out to replace some tubes in my Grandfather's TV. Back then most commercial radio was AM and you could listen to stations from all over late at night on a regular radio. The guy gave me a used short wave radio and I've been hooked ever since. My first "interest" in radio was as a young teen-ager building and flying model aircraft. I read about "radio control" of them and thought that would be neat. One of the adult model flyers in the club was a pre-WW2 amateur as well as a pro licensee in radio working for the CAA. [was so long ago that it wouldn't be NASA for a while and 'NOAA' didn't exist then...:-) ] My $98 (retail) National NC-57 receiver was bought via a $100 prize earned in competitive free-flight model flying in Detroit, MI, in 1948. Still have the trophy but the NC-57 has aged more than me...:-) Everyone has a different episode of first-discovery but it is proclaimed that only 'certain kinds' of discovery are the 'only right-and-proper' ones. Ptui. That was a long time ago though and the new generations have different motivators. I think that one of the biggest [de]motivators is the stigma of current CB operations and that a lot of people don't recognize the difference between the two. There I agree totally. "CB" came into being in 1958. I was then a calibration technician at the Ramo- Wooldridge Corporation Standards Lab in El Segundo, CA. The lab supervisor was Ed Dodds (not sure of his call- sign but could have been W6AFU or close to it, anyway he was a pre-WW2 amateur and had a full Collins station). Ed didn't think much of this "11-meter Charley Brown" thing but he didn't despise it either. A lot of the other olde-tymers at RW denounced it all over the place. "HOW DARE THE FCC TAKE AWAY *OUR* 11-METER BAND?" "HOW DARE THE FCC LET CIVILIANS ON HF RADIO WITHOUT A CODE TEST or even a license test?!?" Blah, blah, blah, etc. Oh, such a terrible thing!!! That was, as I see it a time of the birthing of bigotry against CB that remains in the later-generation amateur community. No sweat to me. I put a Viking Messenger CB in my aluminum-body '53 Austin-Healey in 1959 and had a lot of fun with it. A lot of folks around here in LA did similar, mobile or fixed. Fabulous "ground plane" for a base-loaded short whip. Wasn't interested in "DX." I liked the mobile communications thing, to be able to talk to PEOPLE, not stations or callsigns. That was the original intent of "CB," not the olde- tyme hammature activity of "work DX on HF with CW." Forty-nine years later the CB users outnumber hams by at least six to one [I think the EIA quit trying to take a measure of the number years ago]. It's a standard item in the cab for highway truckers now. I look to the right of my computer and see one of the pair of Motorola FRS-GMRS handy-talkies that was purchased at Fry's Electronics for less than $50 the pair. My wife and I use it in and around the house. I can close my hand around it. Rechargeable NiMH batteries, AC dual charger part of the sales pack. According to the 2003 FCC Panel on Unlicensed Radio there were 15 million FRS radios sold back then. I don't use "CB" mobile now, haven't since 1981. A cell phone works just dandy for us on highways now on one- and two-thousand mile drives cross- country in the USA. But, according to the morse mavens still flapping their worn wings prior to 15 Dec 06, I could ONLY be LEGALLY and MORALLY "CORRECT" by passing a morse code test for an amateur radio license!!! :-) Regards, LA PS: The new Mouser Feb-Apr 2007 catalog 629 arrived in today's (30 Jan 07) mail. 1,838 pages. 2 3/16" thick at the spine. Good to know they are still "discovering themselves." :-) |
Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
"Bob Brock" wrote in message "Dee Flint" wrote in message "Bob Brock" wrote in message On 28 Jan 2007 13:11:46 -0800, " wrote: So, to bring this back on topic. I wonder if the intent of the average ham is to make ham radio grow or to maintain a stale status quo? The way I see it, a steady increase in qualified hams is a good thing. Ham radio needs a good infusion of new blood and the no-code tech license as a good start. However, it was only the beginning. It will be very tough to grow ham radio. We've "saturated the market" so to speak. If you check around the internet (for example, Speroni's site is one), you can find the statistics on a few of the other countries. We have 2 hams per thousand people while Europe is running more like 1 ham per thousand people. While we need to actively recruit, there just aren't a lot of people out there that are inclined to amateur radio as a part of their leisure pursuits. We will have to recruit hard just to stay at the current level. It would not surprise me if our numbers dropped in half over the next decade or so before leveling out. Dee, I give you a standing ovation for admitting that! At last, an amateur extra licensee besides Hans Brakob who admits what has been visible for years. The old paradigms are no longer worth a pair of pennies. "Ham radio" needs to look at itself and its standards very, very carefully. The ARRL just doesn't have it to REALLY promote the hobby. It hasn't had it for years. The ONLY promotion comes from relatively-isolated (from League hierarchy) groups who have actively pursued promotion themselves. ARRL's main "interest" is promoting its (de facto) business of selling publications. It IS a multi-million-annual-income corporation despite what Believers say is "non-profit." The League must CHANGE its political position. Radically. Singing to the chorus of other amateurs about how good they are is what the League leaders may want...but it is off- putting to the majority. Either they show REAL leader- ship as a membership organization and get with the mainstream or just be a publisher of niche activities. There really isn't much choice for them. They've resisted and resisted and resisted BASIC changes to amateur radio activity for years. As a result they've NOT increased their membership by any worthwhile amount for years. The largest amateur radio licensee class is Technician. It's been that way for years...yet the League just shines off that easily-observable fact. Those who really and truly LIKE amateur radio MUST resist the very-strong temptation to act as all-around extra "superiors" and demand "respect" for credentials earned in amateurism at the same time they are looking down their noses at others. Despite how much they think of themselves and other olde-tymers, their personal standards are NOT shared by others, the mainstream. They MUST learn that not all "newbies" MUST get into amateur radio as teen- agers. They MUST learn that teen-agers have many MORE diversions of very interesting activities AVAILABLE. Not the latest fad interest or popular entertainment but very real electronic activities that don't touch on radio...or, if it does touch on radio, that radio is very much more and farther from the traditional HF "short- wave" in the real world. It is what IS, not what individual olde-tymers want to preserve, that intangible wonder of something shown to them long, long ago. I don't have the answers, don't pretend to. But, I can SEE what has happened, SEE cause-and-effect, and do not PRETEND that "radio" has remained static since the first olde-tymers "discovered" it. I'm not an amateur. I'm a professinal in electronics. Yet, I've been a hobbyist in electronics since before most of you readers existed. I've seen the whole of electronics ("radio" is a subset of that) CHANGE radically in my lifetime. I've also seen that younger olde-tymers bitterly resist change, change that they cannot control. Those who resist change can alter the course of future amateur radio by simply causing its stagnation and eventual demise. Too bad I'm on your "kill list." We might have had a real conversation here on this. But, no, I have been categorized as "inferior" or "unworthy" or, as one put it in the past, "just horrid!" :-) Regards, |
Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
"Dee Flint" wrote in message . .. "Bob Brock" wrote in message news:_Eovh.2876$ch1.1567@bigfe9... "Dee Flint" wrote in message . .. "Bob Brock" wrote in message ... On 28 Jan 2007 13:11:46 -0800, " wrote: Not at all, John, you be wrong there. ARRL has periodical and publication racks on the floors of HRO and Radio Shack and other stores to catch all eyes. Not really trying to change the subject, but I went to the local bookstore and two Radio Shacks trying to get a copy of the General Class Study manual. Both Radio Shacks said that they no longer carry the study guides. So, I opted to download the questions and answers from the net for free and give that a shot. Did two Radio Shack managers lie to me? Has anyone seen the ARRL study guides? I didn't even see any of the "Now Your's Talking" books at the local stores. Radio Shack has basically gotten out of amateur radio. I haven't seen any study guides there for a couple of years. Sometimes you can get them at Barnes & Noble but you have to special order. In that case one might as well order directly off the ARRL website. The Technician license manual is no longer called "Now You're Talking". I don't recall the new name. Right. Radio Shack pimps the hot products for the moment. The way I see it, them not even carrying license manuals speaks volumes about demand for them. Now, when you walk into a Radio Shack and see loads of HF antennas, HF rigs, and a shelf of study guides; then you can say that Ham radio is back in demand. So, to bring this back on topic. I wonder if the intent of the average ham is to make ham radio grow or to maintain a stale status quo? The way I see it, a steady increase in qualified hams is a good thing. Ham radio needs a good infusion of new blood and the no-code tech license as a good start. However, it was only the beginning. It will be very tough to grow ham radio. We've "saturated the market" so to speak. If you check around the internet (for example, Speroni's site is one), you can find the statistics on a few of the other countries. We have 2 hams per thousand people while Europe is running more like 1 ham per thousand people. While we need to actively recruit, there just aren't a lot of people out there that are inclined to amateur radio as a part of their leisure pursuits. We will have to recruit hard just to stay at the current level. It would not surprise me if our numbers dropped in half over the next decade or so before leveling out. You could be right. However, there wouldn't be anything wrong with looking at the potential base of good people who could be interested in ham radio and trying to figure out what aspects might motivate them in joining in the hobby. Well, except that we are in the wrong ng to do that right here and would need to start another thread in the appropriate ng instead. I guess I'm questioning whether we should recruit hard or recruit smart? Perhaps both wouldn't hurt anything. However, to be honest with you and the others here, I've got a crisis going on here right now. My wife had a brain tumor removed a little over a week ago and we just found out tonight that the tumor was malignant. She lost use of her left arm and leg during the operation and will require radiation therapy after the physical therapy. I'll leave it up to those who are already here to decide among yourselves if a discussion of the potential base and what motivates them would be beneficial in the appropriate ng or not. Hey, it's better than holding on to old vendettas and it could give everyone a chance to provide some thoughtful input since it should be pretty non controversial. Give it a thought and do what you will. I'll post as time permits, but things are going to get really busy here for the next few months. I was wanting to study and take the General exam, but that too will take a back burner right now. Take care all and I'll post when time permits. Bob |
Quantity Over Quality (Was: Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...)
On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 23:35:49 GMT, Dave Heil
wrote: Leo wrote: On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:35:02 GMT, Dave Heil wrote: Leo wrote: On 29 Jan 2007 23:08:00 -0800, " wrote: From: Bob Brock on Mon, Jan 29 2007 11:10 pm On 29 Jan 2007 16:44:02 -0800, " wrote: On Jan 29, 3:32?pm, Dave Heil wrote: KH6HZ wrote: "Bob Brock" writes: In response to "Dee Flint" : snip Poor Heil doesn't realize he's been controlled every time he tries to control others! :-) Gotta love it...! :-) Right on. Jim and I had a long, long thread going quite some time ago on this very subject ("Owned or free...", IIRC) whereby I attempted to point this very fact out to him. And still, many months later, he continues to correct, proclaim and argue, often in multiple posts daily. Regardless of how quixiotic this pursuit is, the good fight must be fought! You're a selective reader, "Leo". Good old Mr. Wilson, er Len saw my post about Tandy/Radio Shack gobbling up Allied electronics and had to attempt to dazzle me with his expertise. A lengthy treatise including his having been around when Allied came into existence followed. I'd tend to agree, "Dave", if this was an isolated post that was hijacked by mean 'ol Len. Silly ol' Len leapt in with keyboard blazing. Silly ol' Len needed to exhibit his expertise on matters dealing with Allied Electronics. The only problem he had is that was short on information. That was of paramount importance - many future generations of usenet Googlers will pay homage to you for pointing that out to all with such elegance and aplomb! Hear, hear! By the way, my name is Dave. We don't know that yours is Leo. "We"? The OCD was a bit obvious - there aren't multiple personalities in there too, are there? ("Daves"?) It isn't, though - is it? See a pattern? Isolated post? It doesn't matter to Len. I have seen a pattern in his behavior, "Leo". You certainly have - every time you post a follow up to one of Len's posts! I'll bet you don't! Yessir, Len's a regular puppeteer. He sure is! Not. Whatever you think, "Daves"! Dave K8MN 73, Leo |
Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
On Jan 30, 8:03�pm, "
wrote: "Bob Brock" wrote in message "Dee Flint" wrote in message "Bob Brock" wrote in message On 28 Jan 2007 13:11:46 -0800, " wrote: So, to bring this back on topic. I wonder if the intent of the average ham is to make ham radio grow or to maintain a stale status quo? *The way I see it, a steady increase in qualified hams is a good thing. *Ham radio needs a good infusion of new blood and the no-code tech license as a good start. However, it was only the beginning. It will be very tough to grow ham radio. *We've "saturated the market" so to speak. *If you check around the internet (for example, Speroni's site is one), you can find the statistics on a few of the other countries. *We have 2 hams per thousand people while Europe is running more like 1 ham per thousand people. *While we need to actively recruit, there just aren't a lot of people out there that are inclined to amateur radio as a part of their leisure pursuits. *We will have to recruit hard just to stay at the current level. *It would not surprise me if our numbers dropped in half over the next decade or so before leveling out. * *Dee, I give you astandingovationfor admitting that! * *At last, an amateur extra licensee besides Hans Brakob * *who admits what has been visible for years. * *The old paradigms are no longer worth a pair of pennies. Which old paradigms, Len? What should the old paradigms be replaced with? * *"Ham radio" needs to look at itself and its standards * *very, very carefully. Agreed. Which standards should be changed? * *The ARRL just doesn't have it to REALLY promote the hobby. * *It hasn't had it for years. * What would you have them do that is not being done now? The ONLY promotion comes from * *relatively-isolated (from League hierarchy) groups who have * *actively pursued promotion themselves. * Who are these groups? What are they doing that ARRL is not? One of the most visible promotions of amateur radio is Field Day. Every club Field Day I have seen in the past 20+ years has made a point of setting up in a public place, handing out literature, getting themselves in the local papers and sometimes on TV. Field Day is sponsored by the ARRL. ARRL's main * *"interest" is promoting its (de facto) business of selling * *publications. *It IS a multi-million-annual-income * *corporation despite what Believers say is "non-profit." The ARRL is more than a publisher, Len. * *The League must CHANGE its political position. *Radically. Why? And how should it change? * *Singing to the chorus of other amateurs about how good they * *are is what the League leaders may want...but it is off- * *putting to the majority. *Either they show REAL leader- * *ship as a membership organization and get with the * *mainstream or just be a publisher of niche activities. What would constitute "REAL leadership"? Who was it that led the fight against BPL? * *There really isn't much choice for them. *They've resisted * *and resisted and resisted BASIC changes to amateur radio * *activity for years. * Which changes? As a result they've NOT increased * *their membership by any worthwhile amount for years. *The * *largest amateur radio licensee class is Technician. *It's * *been that way for years...yet the League just shines off * *that easily-observable fact. I don't think they do. There are plenty of ARRL publications aimed at VHF/UHF, satellites, repeaters, meteor scatter, and other non-HF activities. QST has a considerable number of articles aimed at Technicians. * *Those who really and truly LIKE amateur radio MUST resist * *the very-strong temptation to act as all-around extra * *"superiors" and demand "respect" for credentials earned * *in amateurism at the same time they are looking down their * *noses at others.*Despite how much they think of themselves * *and other olde-tymers, their personal standards are NOT * *shared by others, the mainstream. * Who are these "mainstream" folks, Len? What should the standards be? They MUST learn that * *not all "newbies" MUST get into amateur radio as teen- * *agers. *They MUST learn that teen-agers have many MORE * *diversions of very interesting activities AVAILABLE. * *Not the latest fad interest or popular entertainment but * *very real electronic activities that don't touch on * *radio...or, if it does touch on radio, that radio is very * *much more and farther from the traditional HF "short- * *wave" in the real world. *It is what IS, not what * *individual olde-tymers want to preserve, that intangible * *wonder of something shown to them long, long ago. US Amateur radio is, and always has been, open to interested people of all ages. The efforts to interest young people are in recognition of the fact that young people don't have the financial and other resources of adults. * *I don't have the answers, don't pretend to. * You're demanding change without saying what the changes should be, nor what the desired results are. That doesn't make sense. But, I can * *SEE what has happened, SEE cause-and-effect, and do not * *PRETEND that "radio" has remained static since the first * *olde-tymers "discovered" it. Nobody is pretending that radio has remained static. And your claims of cause-and-effect aren't proven. Correlation is not causation. For example, the repeater boom of the late 1970s-mid-1990s brought a lot of people into amateur radio who were looking for a personal radio communications service. They were looking for a radio service that was better behaved and more reliable than cb, for local/regional personal communications. The Technician license was their ticket, and became even more popular when its written test was simplified (1987) and lost its Morse Code test (1991). We got a lot of new hams that way. Some became interested in things beyond the local repeater - some did not. But with the introduction of inexpensive cell phones, plus FRS/GMRS, that source of new hams has all but disappeared. Losing that source of new amateurs is one reason for the lack of growth in US amateur radio. * *I'm not an amateur. *I'm a professinal in electronics. * *Yet, I've been a hobbyist in electronics since before * *most of you readers existed. *I've seen the whole of * *electronics ("radio" is a subset of that) CHANGE radically * *in my lifetime. * Len, perhaps you should take your own advice: "MUST resist the very-strong temptation to act as all-around extra "superiors" and demand "respect" for credentials earned ......at the same time they are looking down their noses at others. Despite how much they think of themselves and other olde-tymers, their personal standards are NOT shared by others, the mainstream." I've also seen that younger olde-tymers * *bitterly resist change, change that they cannot control. Not all changes are for the better, Len. Is it wrong to resist changes? For example, the traditional single-family detached house used to be the "standard" home that most Americans wanted to buy. It was considered the most desirable. But in recent decades, alternative home forms have become popular, such as condominiums, homes with in-law suites, etc. More and more American homeowners do not own a single-family detached house. The old paradigms don't work for them, Yet some people bitterly resist the zoning changes that would accomodate the new era of real estate. See the parallels? * *Those who resist change can alter the course of future * *amateur radio by simply causing its stagnation and * *eventual demise. Again, not all change is for the better. Unless someone can make a good case for exactly why a particular change is needed, why should it be supported? * *Too bad I'm on your "kill list." Len, it's a very safe bet that the reason you are on Dee's "kill list" is because of *your* behavior here. IMHO, Dee simply got tired of your name- calling, various forms of insult, and factual errors. She can correct me if I'm wrong - but I don't think I am. *We might have had a * *real conversation here on this. Len, your behavior here indicates that such a "real conversation" would only last until Dee disagreed with you. It's a safe bet that at the first real challenge to your statements, you'd start with the name-calling ("Mama Dee"), and the various insults, diversions, and factual errors. *But, no, I have been * *categorized as "inferior" or "unworthy" or, as one * *put it in the past, "just horrid!" * :-) There's a good reason why, Len. And for once, it *is* all about you. -- Now you will do one of two things: either ignore this post entirely, or respond to it in your usual manner, with name-calling, insults, etc.. The one thing you *won't* do is respond in a civil fashion, answer the questions I posed, or even call me by my first name and/or callsign. Jim, N2EY |
Quantity Over Quality (Was: Unwritten policy and the intent ofthe average amateur ...)
Leo wrote:
On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 23:35:49 GMT, Dave Heil wrote: Leo wrote: On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:35:02 GMT, Dave Heil wrote: Leo wrote: On 29 Jan 2007 23:08:00 -0800, " wrote: From: Bob Brock on Mon, Jan 29 2007 11:10 pm On 29 Jan 2007 16:44:02 -0800, " wrote: On Jan 29, 3:32?pm, Dave Heil wrote: KH6HZ wrote: "Bob Brock" writes: In response to "Dee Flint" : snip Poor Heil doesn't realize he's been controlled every time he tries to control others! :-) Gotta love it...! :-) Right on. Jim and I had a long, long thread going quite some time ago on this very subject ("Owned or free...", IIRC) whereby I attempted to point this very fact out to him. And still, many months later, he continues to correct, proclaim and argue, often in multiple posts daily. Regardless of how quixiotic this pursuit is, the good fight must be fought! You're a selective reader, "Leo". Good old Mr. Wilson, er Len saw my post about Tandy/Radio Shack gobbling up Allied electronics and had to attempt to dazzle me with his expertise. A lengthy treatise including his having been around when Allied came into existence followed. I'd tend to agree, "Dave", if this was an isolated post that was hijacked by mean 'ol Len. Silly ol' Len leapt in with keyboard blazing. Silly ol' Len needed to exhibit his expertise on matters dealing with Allied Electronics. The only problem he had is that was short on information. That was of paramount importance - many future generations of usenet Googlers will pay homage to you for pointing that out to all with such elegance and aplomb! It seemed important enough for him to post his usual insulting crap, "Leo". I'm sure that future generations will learn a great deal about amateur radio from the misinformation and disinformation put forth by Leonard H. Anderson. Hear, hear! By the way, my name is Dave. We don't know that yours is Leo. "We"? The OCD was a bit obvious - there aren't multiple personalities in there too, are there? ("Daves"?) There are other readers of the newsgroup who don't know you to be Leo, "Leo". I am Dave and my amateur radio callsign is K8MN. Drop me a line at and see who responds, "Leo". You're still sniping anonymously. It isn't, though - is it? See a pattern? Isolated post? It doesn't matter to Len. I have seen a pattern in his behavior, "Leo". You certainly have - every time you post a follow up to one of Len's posts! Did you see the pattern when Len followed up my post with his misinformation? I'll bet you don't! Yessir, Len's a regular puppeteer. He sure is! Not. Whatever you think, "Daves"! It certainly appears that the puppet master is doing the dancing and that the supposed puppets are calling the tune, "Leo". Dave K8MN |
Quantity Over Quality (Was: Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...)
On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 00:37:28 GMT, Dave Heil
wrote: Leo wrote: On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 23:35:49 GMT, Dave Heil wrote: Leo wrote: On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:35:02 GMT, Dave Heil wrote: Leo wrote: On 29 Jan 2007 23:08:00 -0800, " wrote: From: Bob Brock on Mon, Jan 29 2007 11:10 pm On 29 Jan 2007 16:44:02 -0800, " wrote: On Jan 29, 3:32?pm, Dave Heil wrote: KH6HZ wrote: "Bob Brock" writes: In response to "Dee Flint" : snip Poor Heil doesn't realize he's been controlled every time he tries to control others! :-) Gotta love it...! :-) Right on. Jim and I had a long, long thread going quite some time ago on this very subject ("Owned or free...", IIRC) whereby I attempted to point this very fact out to him. And still, many months later, he continues to correct, proclaim and argue, often in multiple posts daily. Regardless of how quixiotic this pursuit is, the good fight must be fought! You're a selective reader, "Leo". Good old Mr. Wilson, er Len saw my post about Tandy/Radio Shack gobbling up Allied electronics and had to attempt to dazzle me with his expertise. A lengthy treatise including his having been around when Allied came into existence followed. I'd tend to agree, "Dave", if this was an isolated post that was hijacked by mean 'ol Len. Silly ol' Len leapt in with keyboard blazing. Silly ol' Len needed to exhibit his expertise on matters dealing with Allied Electronics. The only problem he had is that was short on information. That was of paramount importance - many future generations of usenet Googlers will pay homage to you for pointing that out to all with such elegance and aplomb! It seemed important enough for him to post his usual insulting crap, "Leo". I'm sure that future generations will learn a great deal about amateur radio from the misinformation and disinformation put forth by Leonard H. Anderson. Hear, hear! By the way, my name is Dave. We don't know that yours is Leo. "We"? The OCD was a bit obvious - there aren't multiple personalities in there too, are there? ("Daves"?) There are other readers of the newsgroup who don't know you to be Leo, "Leo". Kind of you to step up and speak for them all, "Daves". I am Dave and my amateur radio callsign is K8MN. Drop me a line at and see who responds, "Leo". You're still sniping anonymously. Odd that you would consider this interchange "sniping" - if I agreed with you, would it become a "conversation"? Sure would! And no, the definition of anonymous is "having no known name " - mine's Leo! Whether you believe that or not is completely irrelevant to me. Should I prefer to communicate with K8MN, I would use the ham bands to do so (where your callsign, and mine, are both relevant and required by law). But you're not there - you're here! Usenet ain't radio, OM. It isn't, though - is it? See a pattern? Isolated post? It doesn't matter to Len. I have seen a pattern in his behavior, "Leo". You certainly have - every time you post a follow up to one of Len's posts! Did you see the pattern when Len followed up my post with his misinformation? I certainly did - just the right bait to draw you to the lure. Works on Jim, too, because he cannot resist. Every time - without fail! Now there's a pattern if I ever saw one....... I'll bet you don't! Yessir, Len's a regular puppeteer. He sure is! Not. Whatever you think, "Daves"! It certainly appears that the puppet master is doing the dancing and that the supposed puppets are calling the tune, "Leo". Whatever you say, "Daves" - you're obviously in complete control! :) Dave K8MN 73, Leo |
Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
"Bob Brock" wrote in message .. . "Dee Flint" wrote in message . .. "Bob Brock" wrote in message news:_Eovh.2876$ch1.1567@bigfe9... [snip] It will be very tough to grow ham radio. We've "saturated the market" so to speak. If you check around the internet (for example, Speroni's site is one), you can find the statistics on a few of the other countries. We have 2 hams per thousand people while Europe is running more like 1 ham per thousand people. While we need to actively recruit, there just aren't a lot of people out there that are inclined to amateur radio as a part of their leisure pursuits. We will have to recruit hard just to stay at the current level. It would not surprise me if our numbers dropped in half over the next decade or so before leveling out. You could be right. However, there wouldn't be anything wrong with looking at the potential base of good people who could be interested in ham radio and trying to figure out what aspects might motivate them in joining in the hobby. Well, except that we are in the wrong ng to do that right here and would need to start another thread in the appropriate ng instead. I guess I'm questioning whether we should recruit hard or recruit smart? Perhaps both wouldn't hurt anything. What we need to do is recruit OUTSIDE the newsgroups and let people know that it exists and what they can do with it. People in the amateur radio newsgroups are either already licensed or know something about ham radio. It's the people who know little to nothing about it that we need to get the word to so that they can decide if this is an activity that they want to get involved in. However, to be honest with you and the others here, I've got a crisis going on here right now. My wife had a brain tumor removed a little over a week ago and we just found out tonight that the tumor was malignant. She lost use of her left arm and leg during the operation and will require radiation therapy after the physical therapy. I'll leave it up to those who are already here to decide among yourselves if a discussion of the potential base and what motivates them would be beneficial in the appropriate ng or not. Good luck and best wishes. Hey, it's better than holding on to old vendettas and it could give everyone a chance to provide some thoughtful input since it should be pretty non controversial. Give it a thought and do what you will. I'll post as time permits, but things are going to get really busy here for the next few months. I was wanting to study and take the General exam, but that too will take a back burner right now. Yup, family comes first. Dee, N8UZE |
Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
|
Quantity Over Quality (Was: Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...)
On Feb 1, 5:01�pm, Leo wrote:
Did you see the pattern when Len followed up my post with his misinformation? I certainly did - just the right bait to draw you to the lure. *Works on Jim, too, because he cannot resist. *Every time - without fail! That's demonstrably untrue, "Leo". But you will not admit it. |
Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
From: on 31 Jan 2007 15:33:35 -0800
Agreed. Agreed to what? Which standards should be changed? Which standard should never be changed? What would you have them do that is not being done now? Why do you ask? Who are these groups? What are they doing that ARRL is not? Why do you ask? Field Day is sponsored by the ARRL. Why is that important? Are you a farmer out-standing in his field? Did you get a crop subsidy? Did you consider yourself as growing something? Is that why you spread so much fertilizer around? The ARRL is more than a publisher, Len. Why do you care? Do you have stock in the ARRL? Do you have any ARRL publications? Why should we care whether or not you do? And how should it change? How should what change? Why can't you describe your question? What would constitute "REAL leadership"? Why do you consider the ARRL as "leaders?" Why does the ARRL consider themselves as the "leaders?" Who was it that led the fight against BPL? Did you not read the Comments on BPL at the FCC website? Why do you think ONLY ARRL 'fights against it?' Why haven't you engaged your browser to look around more? Have you ever been engaged? Have you ever browsed the singles groups? Which changes? What are you talking about? Do you ever change your underwear? Haven't you ever changed your mind? I don't think they do. There are plenty of ARRL publications aimed at VHF/UHF, satellites, repeaters, meteor scatter, and other non-HF activities. QST has a considerable number of articles aimed at Technicians. Why aren't more Techs members of the ARRL? Don't you realize that Technician class is now bigger than ALL other US license classes combined? Why hasn't the ARRL gotten more than a quarter of all amateur radio licensees as members? Who are these "mainstream" folks, Len? Are you still up the creek and out of the main stream? What should the standards be? Shouldn't you ask NIST that? US Amateur radio is, and always has been, open to interested people of all ages. The efforts to interest young people are in recognition of the fact that young people don't have the financial and other resources of adults. Is that why ARRL is always asking for some kind of donation? You're demanding change without saying what the changes should be, nor what the desired results are. That doesn't make sense. Why do you think all postings are made direct to you? Nobody is pretending that radio has remained static. And your claims of cause-and-effect aren't proven. Correlation is not causation. Why haven't you cleaned up the static in your postings? Have you cleaned up the static on your radio? We got a lot of new hams that way. Some became interested in things beyond the local repeater - some did not. But with the introduction of inexpensive cell phones, plus FRS/GMRS, that source of new hams has all but disappeared. Do you have your finger on the pulse of all radio-interested? Are you A. C. Nielson? Or are you Leslie Nielson? Are we to take your words as TRVTH engraved on a building? Why can't we take your words as in a comic strip, "BC?" Losing that source of new amateurs is one reason for the lack of growth in US amateur radio. Why can't you take the fact that so many just aren't interested in morse code? Why can't you understand that newcomers coming in via no-code Tech classes are not quite able to keep up with old coded hams who are dying off? Len, perhaps you should take your own advice: Why do you say YOUR advice is "mine?" Why do you act like only YOU are supreme judge of all? Where is it written that only YOU know what is best? Not all changes are for the better, Len. Is it wrong to resist changes? Is this an old folk homily? Is it an aphorism? Isn't it more of your own apocryphal buzz-word-ism? Why can't you accept FCC 06-178 with good grace. Or do you always say "Good night grace?" Again, not all change is for the better. Unless someone can make a good case for exactly why a particular change is needed, why should it be supported? Why do you NOT understand what the FCC wrote in 06-178? Why are you in such denial? Have you sought psychologic help for your denial problem? Have you gotten laid yet? Do you floss after every meal? Len, your behavior here indicates that such a "real conversation" would only last until Dee disagreed with you. Why do you call me by a familiar name? Why do you think you have been authorized to do so? Why do you continue the facade of seeing the future? Are you a fake fortune teller? Do you read palms? Have you ever run your hands along a woman's hand? Have you ever held a conversation where you didn't try to correct someone constantly? Why do you think real conversations always involve you asking questions? It's a safe bet that at the first real challenge to your statements, you'd start with the name-calling ("Mama Dee"), and the various insults, diversions, and factual errors. Why do you want to chastize others for things that have not yet happened? Why are you always making up stories about the future? Do you have facts from the future? Why do you consider yourself the ultimate authority? Why are you imagining things? There's a good reason why, Len. And for once, it *is* all about you. What is "all about me?" Why do all your posts put you on the ultimate authority throne? Haven't you heard of Ex-Lax? Have you ever had an endoscopy procedure? Haven't you ever considered that others consider your attitude as ****ty? Now you will do one of two things: either ignore this post entirely, or respond to it in your usual manner, with name-calling, insults, etc.. The one thing you *won't* do is respond in a civil fashion, answer the questions I posed, or even call me by my first name and/or callsign. Why are you acting like a boss? Were you born in Red Bank, NJ? Why must all answer your questions? Are you Alex Trebek in drag? Are you in or have you ever been in jeopardy? Why do you always answer with other questions? Why are you so irritable? Have you considered tranquilizers? Haven't you gotten laid yet? -30- |
Quantity Over Quality (Was: Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...)
|
Quantity Over Quality (Was: Unwritten policy and the intent ofthe average amateur ...)
|
Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
On Thu, 1 Feb 2007 17:44:10 -0500, "Dee Flint"
wrote: "Bob Brock" wrote in message . .. "Dee Flint" wrote in message . .. "Bob Brock" wrote in message news:_Eovh.2876$ch1.1567@bigfe9... [snip] It will be very tough to grow ham radio. We've "saturated the market" so to speak. If you check around the internet (for example, Speroni's site is one), you can find the statistics on a few of the other countries. We have 2 hams per thousand people while Europe is running more like 1 ham per thousand people. While we need to actively recruit, there just aren't a lot of people out there that are inclined to amateur radio as a part of their leisure pursuits. We will have to recruit hard just to stay at the current level. It would not surprise me if our numbers dropped in half over the next decade or so before leveling out. You could be right. However, there wouldn't be anything wrong with looking at the potential base of good people who could be interested in ham radio and trying to figure out what aspects might motivate them in joining in the hobby. Well, except that we are in the wrong ng to do that right here and would need to start another thread in the appropriate ng instead. I guess I'm questioning whether we should recruit hard or recruit smart? Perhaps both wouldn't hurt anything. What we need to do is recruit OUTSIDE the newsgroups and let people know that it exists and what they can do with it. People in the amateur radio newsgroups are either already licensed or know something about ham radio. It's the people who know little to nothing about it that we need to get the word to so that they can decide if this is an activity that they want to get involved in. If you guys want to sit here and say that there is no reason for hams to discuss methods to recruit new hams here because the only people on the newsgroups are the ones who recruit new hams, go ahead. I can't make you. However, don't bemoan the lack of growth among the ranks. What word is it that you want to get out? That you can talk to people in foreign lands? That it is a good hobby for older people who are shut in to be able to talk to new friends? That you can use it for reliable communications with family and friends? How about the public service aspects such as SKYWARN and ARIES? This is just a quick list of things that I can think of because, as I already said, time is kind of short for me right now and I think that brainstorming is a much better method. That's why I suggested it. What are the competitors to ham radio? GMRS, FRS, MURS, cell phones, CB, etc.? What are the comparative advantages and disadvantages of each of these? Why would ham radio be a better choice. Then you could discuss market demographics. What kind of people might be interested in ham radio? How about hunters and fishermen who may want to be able to talk back people who are out with them? Perhaps people who are interested in off grid living and homesteaders? Perhaps farmers who want to be able to call back to the house when they are out in the field? How about emergency communications like being able to either call home or get someone else to call home for you when your car is broke down? This list too could be a lot longer. Once you decide what the demographics are, you could look at what kinds of media do these people read? I can tell you right now, it's not ham specific magazines such as QST. Ideas that come to mind, based on the list that I've provided are the various newsgroups and list servers that cater to their needs. Magazines that sell to homesteaders such as Countryside Magazine or Mother Earth. All kinds of hunting and fishing magazines out there. There are a lot of media outlets tailored to older people and people on a tight budget/fixed income. You could also look at organizations publications of specific groups. This list too is abbreviated. Two of the barriers to people getting a ham license that I run into quite a bit are the Morse Code requirement and a lot of people don't realize that there is a difference between ham and CB. The code barrier is gone and that is a good lead in as to why someone may want to consider ham radio even if they had dismissed it at an earlier time. Then someone could look back over the various open discussions and write an article to be submitted to any of the various media describing the advantages of ham radio over other methods. People who otherwise hadn't considered ham radio as an option for their particular needs may get a chance to see that it is indeed an option that would meet a need. It's not only a good chance to promote ham radio in a media read by someone other than hams, you might make a little money from it. There are many here with excellent writing skills who are capable of doing it. The other option is to take a fatalistic viewpoint that the market is saturated and growth is impossible. To that, I say that marketing is everything and right now the vast majority of marketing is keyed towards those already in ham radio. It's a policy that I disagree with and if no one else wants to do it, it's something that I will do alone as soon as time permits. However, that may be after the current widow of opportunity created by dropping the code requirement has passed and that would be truly unfortunate. |
Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
On Feb 2, 1:29�am, Bob Brock wrote:
On Thu, 1 Feb 2007 17:44:10 -0500, "Dee Flint" wrote: "Bob Brock" wrote in message . .. "Dee Flint" wrote in message m... "Bob Brock" wrote in message news:_Eovh.2876$ch1.1567@bigfe9... [snip] It will be very tough to grow ham radio. *We've "saturated the market" so to speak. *If you check around the internet (for example, Speroni's site is one), you can find the statistics on a few of the other countries. *We have 2 hams per thousand people while Europe is running more like 1 ham per thousand people. *While we need to actively recruit, there just aren't a lot of people out there that are inclined to amateur radio as a part of their leisure pursuits. *We will have to recruit hard just to stay at the current level. *It would not surprise me if our numbers dropped in half over the next decade or so before leveling out. You could be right. *However, there wouldn't be anything wrong with looking at the potential base of good people who could be interested in ham radio and trying to figure out what aspects might motivate them in joining in the hobby. *Well, except that we are in the wrong ng to do that right here and would need to start another thread in the appropriate ng instead. *I guess I'm questioning whether we should recruit hard or recruit smart? *Perhaps both wouldn't hurt anything. What we need to do is recruit OUTSIDE the newsgroups and let people know that it exists and what they can do with it. *People in the amateur radio newsgroups are either already licensed or know something about ham radio. It's the people who know little to nothing about it that we need to get the word to so that they can decide if this is an activity that they want to get involved in. If you guys want to sit here and say that there is no reason for hams to discuss methods to recruit new hams here because the only people on the newsgroups are the ones who recruit new hams, go ahead. *I can't make you. *However, don't bemoan the lack of growth among the ranks. Then let's discuss ways of improving that growth. What word is it that you want to get out? * GOOD QUESTION! That you can talk to people in foreign lands? *That it is a good hobby for older people who are shut in to be able to talk to new friends? *That you can use it for reliable communications with family and friends? *How about the public service aspects such as SKYWARN and ARIES? *This is just a quick list of things that I can think of because, as I already said, time is kind of short for me right now and I think that brainstorming is a much better method. *That's why I suggested it. Here's my version: 1) Ham radio exists *today* 2) It's very different from other kinds of radio, such as cb, GMRS/ FRS, broadcasting, etc. 3) You can do a wide variety of things with ham radio, including some that you can't do in other radio services. There are only a few things you cannot do in ham radio (commercial operation, music. broadcasting). 4) Ham radio operation requires FCC licensing. Getting a license requires passing multiple choice tests and making an application to FCC. 5) Ham radio is essentially "radio for its own sake" - an end in itself more than a means to an end. 6) One word: FUN! What are the competitors to ham radio? *GMRS, FRS, MURS, cell phones, CB, etc.? *What are the comparative advantages and disadvantages of each of these? *Why would ham radio be a better choice. I'd be careful with that one. I think one of the main reasons for lack of growth over the past several years has been that for a long time now ham radio has been presented as a sort of "personal radio service", with emphasis on radio as a means to an end rather than an end in itself. The problem with that approach is that as soon as a technology appears that also serves that end, we lose out. I think that amateur radio will continue to exist only if it emphasizes how it is unique, rather than how it is similar to other radio services. Then you could discuss market demographics. *What kind of people might be interested in ham radio? *How about hunters and fishermen who may want to be able to talk back people who are out with them? *Perhaps people who are interested in off grid living and homesteaders? Perhaps farmers who want to be able to call back to the house when they are out in the field? *How about emergency communications like being able to either call home or get someone else to call home for you when your car is broke down? *This list too could be a lot longer. The problem is that most of what you describe is about radio as a means to an end rather than radio for its own sake. FRS, GMRS, and cell phones can already do most or all of what is written above. The thing to point out is what amateur radio can do that other radio services cannot: - Wide variety of modes and bands - Homebrew, kit or manufactured equipment, old to new technologies. - Local, regional, national, international and even space communications *without* dependence on commercial infrastructure. - Competition (radiosport) - Public service communications - Emergency communications Once you decide what the demographics are, you could look at what kinds of media do these people read? *I can tell you right now, it's not ham specific magazines such as QST. *Ideas that come to mind, based on the list that I've provided are the various newsgroups and list servers that cater to their needs. *Magazines that sell to homesteaders such as Countryside Magazine or Mother Earth. *All kinds of hunting and fishing magazines out there. *There are a lot of media outlets tailored to older people and people on a tight budget/fixed income. *You could also look at organizations publications of specific groups. *This list too is abbreviated. This is a very good point. Here are some more ideas: - Ads/articles in boating, camping, RVing and flying magazines - Highly visible amateur radio exhibits at air shows, town fairs, parades, etc. - Community-access cable TV and public radio/TV exposure - Placement of amateur radio magazines, books and other material in local schools, particularly middle schools. Two of the barriers to people getting a ham license that I run into quite a bit are the Morse Code requirement and a lot of people don't realize that there is a difference between ham and CB. *The code barrier is gone and that is a good lead in as to why someone may want to consider ham radio even if they had dismissed it at an earlier time. I don't think the Morse Code test is the "barrier" that it is often said to be, but that's soon to be a moot point. I do think confusion between cb and Amateur Radio has really hurt growth in Amateur Radio for many years. I also think that complete ignorance, or gross misunderstanding, of the *existence* of Amateur Radio is a continuing problem. Then someone could look back over the various open discussions and write an article to be submitted to any of the various media describing the advantages of ham radio over other methods. *People who otherwise hadn't considered ham radio as an option for their particular needs may get a chance to see that it is indeed an option that would meet a need. * Perhaps - but that method emphasizes "means to an end". I say the best selling point is that simply going on the air and making contacts is a heck of a lot of fun. So is designing, building, testing, fixing and repairing your own radio setup. That's what ham radio is really all about, isn't it? It's like trying to sell sailboats instead of motorboats by emphasizing how a sailboat doesn't need lots of fuel the way a motorboat does, and is only a bit slower than many motorboats. You may sell a few sailboats that way, but it's not the best approach IMHO. The way to sell sailboats is to sell the unique *experience* of sailboating itself - how it makes you feel, how much fun it is, etc. Sailing as an end in itself. Some people will "get it", most won't. Of course most people's motivations to do something are a mix of the practical and the emotional. So the ultimate goal is to appeal to both of those, not just the practical. It's not only a good chance to promote ham radio in a media read by someone other than hams, you might make a little money from it. *There are many here with excellent writing skills who are capable of doing it. The other option is to take a fatalistic viewpoint that the market is saturated and growth is impossible. *To that, I say that marketing is everything and right now the vast majority of marketing is keyed towards those already in ham radio. *It's a policy that I disagree with and if no one else wants to do it, it's something that I will do alone as soon as time permits. *However, that may be after the current widow of opportunity created by dropping the code requirement has passed and that would be truly unfortunate How something is sold is very important, though. If we sell amateur radio only by what it can do for your personal communications needs, we will always be at the mercy of the next technological improvement. 73 es TNX de Jim, N2EY |
Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
"Bob Brock" wrote in message ... On Thu, 1 Feb 2007 17:44:10 -0500, "Dee Flint" wrote: "Bob Brock" wrote in message ... "Dee Flint" wrote in message . .. "Bob Brock" wrote in message news:_Eovh.2876$ch1.1567@bigfe9... [snip] It will be very tough to grow ham radio. We've "saturated the market" so to speak. If you check around the internet (for example, Speroni's site is one), you can find the statistics on a few of the other countries. We have 2 hams per thousand people while Europe is running more like 1 ham per thousand people. While we need to actively recruit, there just aren't a lot of people out there that are inclined to amateur radio as a part of their leisure pursuits. We will have to recruit hard just to stay at the current level. It would not surprise me if our numbers dropped in half over the next decade or so before leveling out. You could be right. However, there wouldn't be anything wrong with looking at the potential base of good people who could be interested in ham radio and trying to figure out what aspects might motivate them in joining in the hobby. Well, except that we are in the wrong ng to do that right here and would need to start another thread in the appropriate ng instead. I guess I'm questioning whether we should recruit hard or recruit smart? Perhaps both wouldn't hurt anything. What we need to do is recruit OUTSIDE the newsgroups and let people know that it exists and what they can do with it. People in the amateur radio newsgroups are either already licensed or know something about ham radio. It's the people who know little to nothing about it that we need to get the word to so that they can decide if this is an activity that they want to get involved in. If you guys want to sit here and say that there is no reason for hams to discuss methods to recruit new hams here because the only people on the newsgroups are the ones who recruit new hams, go ahead. I can't make you. However, don't bemoan the lack of growth among the ranks. You misunderstood. I did not say we should not talk about methods. I said actually recruiting here is not going to help as those who don't know about ham radio won't be here. What word is it that you want to get out? That you can talk to people in foreign lands? That it is a good hobby for older people who are shut in to be able to talk to new friends? That you can use it for reliable communications with family and friends? How about the public service aspects such as SKYWARN and ARIES? This is just a quick list of things that I can think of because, as I already said, time is kind of short for me right now and I think that brainstorming is a much better method. That's why I suggested it. All these methods must be used as you never know what will pique some one's interest. What are the competitors to ham radio? GMRS, FRS, MURS, cell phones, CB, etc.? What are the comparative advantages and disadvantages of each of these? Why would ham radio be a better choice. See above. Then you could discuss market demographics. What kind of people might be interested in ham radio? How about hunters and fishermen who may want to be able to talk back people who are out with them? Perhaps people who are interested in off grid living and homesteaders? Perhaps farmers who want to be able to call back to the house when they are out in the field? How about emergency communications like being able to either call home or get someone else to call home for you when your car is broke down? This list too could be a lot longer. See above. However, interest can come from any person. The particular uses you list here however will be better served by other alternatives. Once you decide what the demographics are, you could look at what kinds of media do these people read? I can tell you right now, it's not ham specific magazines such as QST. That was my point. You've got to go "outside". Ideas that come to mind, based on the list that I've provided are the various newsgroups and list servers that cater to their needs. Magazines that sell to homesteaders such as Countryside Magazine or Mother Earth. All kinds of hunting and fishing magazines out there. There are a lot of media outlets tailored to older people and people on a tight budget/fixed income. You could also look at organizations publications of specific groups. This list too is abbreviated. As far as magazines go, unless you want to pay for ad space, you've got to find a way to tie it into an area of interest actually covered by the magazine to try to get it published. I think this should be given a try though. Two of the barriers to people getting a ham license that I run into quite a bit are the Morse Code requirement and a lot of people don't realize that there is a difference between ham and CB. The code barrier is gone and that is a good lead in as to why someone may want to consider ham radio even if they had dismissed it at an earlier time. I agree with the CB idea but no one that I ran into even knew about the code requirement. So I doubt that the latter was significant. Then someone could look back over the various open discussions and write an article to be submitted to any of the various media describing the advantages of ham radio over other methods. People who otherwise hadn't considered ham radio as an option for their particular needs may get a chance to see that it is indeed an option that would meet a need. It's not only a good chance to promote ham radio in a media read by someone other than hams, you might make a little money from it. There are many here with excellent writing skills who are capable of doing it. The other option is to take a fatalistic viewpoint that the market is saturated and growth is impossible. That's not necessarily fatalistic but something one must be aware of in order to tailor their recruiting approach. To that, I say that marketing is everything and right now the vast majority of marketing is keyed towards those already in ham radio. It's a policy that I disagree with and if no one else wants to do it, it's something that I will do alone as soon as time permits. However, that may be after the current widow of opportunity created by dropping the code requirement has passed and that would be truly unfortunate. Market saturation is a fact that all retail manufacturer's face. And they deal with it. This applies to everything from toasters to cars to TV programming to any hobby you can name. For example, there's no growth in the US toaster market. Each manufacturer works on keeping their market share or growing their share. Similarly, we will have to show why our activity deserves more of a person's free time than other activities. I do agree that the "marketing" of our hobby does need to be much better than it is. We need to seek out and find those that would be interested. Those that perhaps lack interest only because they have not heard about it or know very little about it. Marketing the hobby is not the same as marketing the hardware or a specific aspect of ham radio within the ham community. Current marketing is focusing on the latter items. I hope you do get out and market our hobby. Many of us do promote the hobby within our circle of family, friends, acquaintances, co-workers, etc. Dee, N8UZE |
Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
"Dee Flint" wrote:
Market saturation is a fact that all retail manufacturer's face. And they deal with it. Yes, with planned obsolescence. Not exactly the same thing in ham radio, nor can we really deal with it the same way. 73 kh6hz |
Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
"KH6HZ" wrote in message ... "Dee Flint" wrote: Market saturation is a fact that all retail manufacturer's face. And they deal with it. Yes, with planned obsolescence. Not exactly the same thing in ham radio, nor can we really deal with it the same way. 73 kh6hz Although our approach will of necessity have to be different, we still must face the equivalent of market saturation. Not everyone is going to be interested in amateur radio no matter what we do and on top of that our general population growth is very slow. These issues must be considered when devising a strategy. Look at how many people believed and still believe that Morse code kept people out. They think there is a huge number of people just waiting in the wings chomping at the bit to become hams without having to take a code test. I'll certainly be happy and excited if that happens but let's say it doesn't (and I think it won't). What then will people propose? Will they continue to ignore concepts like market saturation as one potentially relevant issue? Will they continue to ignore the concept that not everyone is interested in the types of things that amateur radio can do? We've probably got another several years until the "cell phone substitute" hams are, for the most part, gone. That's several years still of decline. With the relatively low cost of cell phones these days, we will get no more recruits from this approach although we have kept a few that came in this way. The decline in CB enthusiasts is also reducing another potential source of recruits. This actually leads to the major reason for my little guessing game on the growth of amateur radio without a code test. If my prediction is wrong and we have a huge growth, I'll be happy and readily admit that I was wrong. If the growth doesn't happen, perhaps people will wake up and realize that changing requirements won't address the issue. Perhaps they will realize that it is a recruitment and marketing issue rather than requirements. Dee, N8UZE |
Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
On Feb 2, 1:07�pm, "Dee Flint" wrote:
"KH6HZ" wrote in message ... "Dee Flint" wrote: Market saturation is a fact that all retail manufacturer's face. And they deal with it. Yes, with planned obsolescence. Not exactly the same thing in ham radio, nor can we really deal with it the same way. Although our approach will of necessity have to be different, we still must face the equivalent of market saturation. * Well, yes and no. To use the toaster analogy, there's no growth in toaster sales because almost everyone who wants or needs a toaster already has one or more. The percentage of Americans who want toasting technology in their homes is very large, too. New toaster sales today are almost all either replacements for worn- out old toasters, or to people setting up a new kitchen. The key point is that there aren't large numbers of people out there who don't know about toasters and who will step up and buy one or more if modern toasting is presented to them in a positive way. But with amateur radio, I think there are sizable numbers of people who don't even know amateur radio exists, or who have very distorted ideas about it. *Those* are the people we need to reach. Of course many of them won't be interested, no matter what the license requirements are, because "radio for its own sake" just doesn't interest as many people as, say, whole wheat toast with butter and marmalade. Not everyone is going to be interested in amateur radio no matter what we do and on top of that our general population growth is very slow. I think the population growth is particularly slow in the demographics that would be most interested in becoming hams, too. All that means is that we need to get the word out. *These issues must be considered when devising a strategy. *Look at how many people believed and still believe that Morse code kept people out. *They think there is a huge number of people just waiting in the wings chomping at the bit to become hams without having to take a code test. Exactly. If that were really true, the number of US hams by license class would be as lopsided as it is in Japan. But it's not. *I'll certainly be happy and excited if that happens Me too! but let's say it doesn't (and I think it won't). *What then will people propose? Reducing the written tests, of course. In fact, that's already been proposed by NCVEC (see their "Communicator" license idea, and the paper "Amateur Radio in the 21st Century"). *Will they continue to ignore concepts like market saturation as one potentially relevant issue? *Will they continue to ignore the concept that not everyone is interested in the types of things that amateur radio can do? We will see in the next few months. But remember that the resturcturing of 2000 did not result in longterm growth. We've probably got another several years until the "cell phone substitute" hams are, for the most part, gone. *That's several years still of decline. With the relatively low cost of cell phones these days, we will get no more recruits from this approach although we have kept a few that came in this way. The decline in CB enthusiasts is also reducing another potential source of recruits. Yup. Another factor is that many of the new hams of the 70s-'80s-'90s were not young people when they started out. More than a few I know were empty-nesters and retirees - and now they aren't with us anymore. Also, it should be remembered that back in the supposed "golden age" of amateur radio - whenever that supposedly was - there were not only far fewer hams than today, but the number of hams per 1000 people was far lower. Only in the past few years has the US population grown faster than the US amateur population. This actually leads to the major reason for my little guessing game on the growth of amateur radio without a code test. *If my prediction is wrong and we have a huge growth, I'll be happy and readily admit that I was wrong. * Same here. That's one reason I will continue to post the ARS license numbers here twice a month. That way, anyone can go back through the archives and see the long-term trends. If the growth doesn't happen, perhaps people will wake up and realize that changing requirements won't address the issue. *Perhaps they will realize that it is a recruitment and marketing issue rather than requirements. I agree! But mark my words: there will be loud cries that the written tests need to be reduced as well. 73 de Jim, N2EY |
Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
wrote:
But with amateur radio, I think there are sizable numbers of people who don't even know amateur radio exists, or who have very distorted ideas about it. *Those* are the people we need to reach. Some of them work for the Madisonville Independent School District here in Texas. Their web filters block anything related to amateur radio as "entertainment". When I try to access www.arrl.org, I get a message saying it is blocked because it is "entertainment". A school system that blocks anything associated with amateur radio is in very sad shape. -- 73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com |
Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
On Feb 2, 10:57�am, Cecil Moore wrote:
wrote: But with amateur radio, I think there are sizable numbers of people who don't even know amateur radio exists, or who have very distorted ideas about it. *Those* are the people we need to reach. Some of them work for the Madisonville Independent School District here in Texas. Their web filters block anything related to amateur radio as "entertainment". When I try to accesswww.arrl.org, I get a message saying it is blocked because it is "entertainment". A school system that blocks anything associated with amateur radio is in very sad shape. -- 73, Cecil *http://www.w5dxp.com Cecil, amateur radio is a national SERVICE! Would you call the military "entertainment?" Connect the dots. Some dashes might be nice, too... LA |
Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
|
Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
On Feb 2, 12:11�pm, Cecil Moore wrote:
wrote: * *Cecil, amateur radio is a national SERVICE! Yes, as in an "administrative division of government". * *Would you call the military "entertainment?" No, it is also an "administrative division of government". -- 73, Cecil *http://www.w5dxp.com Hmmm...I just wrote four separate sentences. :-) Are they related to one another? :-) tongue in cheek |
Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
On Fri, 2 Feb 2007 08:21:20 -0500, "Dee Flint"
wrote: "Bob Brock" wrote in message .. . On Thu, 1 Feb 2007 17:44:10 -0500, "Dee Flint" wrote: "Bob Brock" wrote in message t... "Dee Flint" wrote in message . .. "Bob Brock" wrote in message news:_Eovh.2876$ch1.1567@bigfe9... [snip] It will be very tough to grow ham radio. We've "saturated the market" so to speak. You could be right. What we need to do is recruit OUTSIDE the newsgroups and let people know that it exists and what they can do with it. If you guys want to sit here and say that there is no reason for hams to discuss methods to recruit new hams here because the only people on the newsgroups are the ones who recruit new hams, go ahead. You misunderstood. I did not say we should not talk about methods. I said actually recruiting here is not going to help as those who don't know about ham radio won't be here. Agreed. It would be like recruiting in QST. What word is it that you want to get out? That ham radio is a very good option to evaluate when meeting a specific groups needs. That it is relatively reliable, economical, All these methods must be used as you never know what will pique some one's interest. What are the competitors to ham radio? GMRS, FRS, MURS, cell phones, CB, etc.? What are the comparative advantages and disadvantages of each of these? Why would ham radio be a better choice. See above. Then you could discuss market demographics. What kind of people might be interested in ham radio? How about hunters and fishermen who may want to be able to talk back people who are out with them? Perhaps people who are interested in off grid living and homesteaders? Perhaps farmers who want to be able to call back to the house when they are out in the field? How about emergency communications like being able to either call home or get someone else to call home for you when your car is broke down? This list too could be a lot longer. See above. However, interest can come from any person. The particular uses you list here however will be better served by other alternatives. There we have to agree to disagree. I think that ham radio would be beneficial to all of the groups that I mentioned. However, no one is presenting the information to them so they don't think about it. Once you decide what the demographics are, you could look at what kinds of media do these people read? I can tell you right now, it's not ham specific magazines such as QST. That was my point. You've got to go "outside". If you go back to my initial post, I think you would see that it was my point to. However, this would be a good place to evaluate what you are going to take outside. Ideas that come to mind, based on the list that I've provided are the various newsgroups and list servers that cater to their needs. Magazines that sell to homesteaders such as Countryside Magazine or Mother Earth. All kinds of hunting and fishing magazines out there. There are a lot of media outlets tailored to older people and people on a tight budget/fixed income. You could also look at organizations publications of specific groups. This list too is abbreviated. As far as magazines go, unless you want to pay for ad space, you've got to find a way to tie it into an area of interest actually covered by the magazine to try to get it published. I think this should be given a try though. Advertising would better be handled by an organization. I was thinking about articles in the magazine. If the writer can't find a "tie in" then it is apparent that you are looking at the wrong demographic and need to find a media outlet that caters to another demographic. Two of the barriers to people getting a ham license that I run into quite a bit are the Morse Code requirement and a lot of people don't realize that there is a difference between ham and CB. The code barrier is gone and that is a good lead in as to why someone may want to consider ham radio even if they had dismissed it at an earlier time. I agree with the CB idea but no one that I ran into even knew about the code requirement. So I doubt that the latter was significant. Then you have been talking to a very demographic from me. The ones that I've talked into getting a Tech license were turned off by code. Granted some of them are higher class licenses now. The CB stigma would be hard to overcome though. Then someone could look back over the various open discussions and write an article to be submitted to any of the various media describing the advantages of ham radio over other methods. People who otherwise hadn't considered ham radio as an option for their particular needs may get a chance to see that it is indeed an option that would meet a need. It's not only a good chance to promote ham radio in a media read by someone other than hams, you might make a little money from it. There are many here with excellent writing skills who are capable of doing it. The other option is to take a fatalistic viewpoint that the market is saturated and growth is impossible. That's not necessarily fatalistic but something one must be aware of in order to tailor their recruiting approach. To that, I say that marketing is everything and right now the vast majority of marketing is keyed towards those already in ham radio. It's a policy that I disagree with and if no one else wants to do it, it's something that I will do alone as soon as time permits. However, that may be after the current widow of opportunity created by dropping the code requirement has passed and that would be truly unfortunate. Market saturation is a fact that all retail manufacturer's face. And they deal with it. This applies to everything from toasters to cars to TV programming to any hobby you can name. For example, there's no growth in the US toaster market. Each manufacturer works on keeping their market share or growing their share. Similarly, we will have to show why our activity deserves more of a person's free time than other activities. If the market is saturated at current levels, then we should face the fact that ham radio is obsolete and as quaint as horse buggies. I'm only using the manufacturing analogy because you did. Personally, I see ham radio as a service and not a product. I see a lot of households who don't have one and they don't have one because they don't see a need for it that can't be met someway else. I do agree that the "marketing" of our hobby does need to be much better than it is. We need to seek out and find those that would be interested. Those that perhaps lack interest only because they have not heard about it or know very little about it. Marketing the hobby is not the same as marketing the hardware or a specific aspect of ham radio within the ham community. Current marketing is focusing on the latter items. I hope you do get out and market our hobby. Many of us do promote the hobby within our circle of family, friends, acquaintances, co-workers, etc. Then you are marketing to what is pretty much a closed set. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with that and it's what I would guess most hams are doing. They are relying on organizations such as the AARL to market for new members and the AARL isn't doing it. Hence, what are already low numbers continue to drop. |
Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
"Bob Brock" wrote in message ... On Fri, 2 Feb 2007 08:21:20 -0500, "Dee Flint" wrote: [snip] Market saturation is a fact that all retail manufacturer's face. And they deal with it. This applies to everything from toasters to cars to TV programming to any hobby you can name. For example, there's no growth in the US toaster market. Each manufacturer works on keeping their market share or growing their share. Similarly, we will have to show why our activity deserves more of a person's free time than other activities. If the market is saturated at current levels, then we should face the fact that ham radio is obsolete and as quaint as horse buggies. I'm only using the manufacturing analogy because you did. Personally, I see ham radio as a service and not a product. I see a lot of households who don't have one and they don't have one because they don't see a need for it that can't be met someway else. Saturation does not equate to being obsolete. The market (toasters, TVs, etc) for almost all current consumer goods has been saturated for decades. The consumer buys for one of three reasons: 1) A person setting up their own household for the first time; 2) The old one broke; 3) They just want a new one. The toaster market (a saturated market) stays pretty steady year after year for the three reason listed. It does not grow (at least here in the US). What I am saying with the marketing analogy is that there is an inherent limit on the percentage of people that will be interested in ham radio. We are probably close to that limit. Yes we can and will find prospective hams by active recruiting. However, given it's limited appeal, finding those people will merely enable us to maintain stability. Actually, looking at other countries with well off populations, I would suspect that we may drop from our current approximately 2 hams per thousand people down to more like 1 ham per thousand people before we finally stabilize. And we'll have to recruit diligently to stabilize even there. Dee, N8UZE |
Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
|
Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
"Bob Brock" wrote in message ... On Fri, 2 Feb 2007 08:21:20 -0500, "Dee Flint" wrote: [snip] Marketing the hobby is not the same as marketing the hardware or a specific aspect of ham radio within the ham community. Current marketing is focusing on the latter items. I hope you do get out and market our hobby. Many of us do promote the hobby within our circle of family, friends, acquaintances, co-workers, etc. Then you are marketing to what is pretty much a closed set. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with that and it's what I would guess most hams are doing. They are relying on organizations such as the AARL to market for new members and the AARL isn't doing it. Hence, what are already low numbers continue to drop. Our numbers per population are the second highest in the world so the "already low numbers" is a fallacy. Only Japan has a higher percentage and it is difficult to determine the validity of their numbers since they license many people for life in grade school, many of whom are never active. Comparing it to parts of Europe, they have 1 ham per thousand where we have 2 hams per thousand. The grass roots approach could possibly be the most effective. I know hunters, truckers, fishermen, farmers, etc. All of them know additional people that I don't If I recruit two ACTIVE people, and they in turn recruit two more each and so on, we would have explosive growth in amateur radio. Remember tsunamis are generally initiated by a single event in a single location. Actually I don't view the ARRL as being responsible for marketing ham radio and recruiting new people. I view them as a service to their members type of thing. However it might not be a bad idea to suggest to them that they set up a donation fund for placing ads in non ham magazines. Dee, N8UZE |
Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
On Fri, 2 Feb 2007 16:15:07 -0500, "Dee Flint"
wrote: "Bob Brock" wrote in message .. . On Fri, 2 Feb 2007 08:21:20 -0500, "Dee Flint" wrote: [snip] Market saturation is a fact that all retail manufacturer's face. And they deal with it. This applies to everything from toasters to cars to TV programming to any hobby you can name. For example, there's no growth in the US toaster market. Each manufacturer works on keeping their market share or growing their share. Similarly, we will have to show why our activity deserves more of a person's free time than other activities. If the market is saturated at current levels, then we should face the fact that ham radio is obsolete and as quaint as horse buggies. I'm only using the manufacturing analogy because you did. Personally, I see ham radio as a service and not a product. I see a lot of households who don't have one and they don't have one because they don't see a need for it that can't be met someway else. Saturation does not equate to being obsolete. The market (toasters, TVs, etc) for almost all current consumer goods has been saturated for decades. The consumer buys for one of three reasons: 1) A person setting up their own household for the first time; 2) The old one broke; 3) They just want a new one. The toaster market (a saturated market) stays pretty steady year after year for the three reason listed. It does not grow (at least here in the US). What I am saying with the marketing analogy is that there is an inherent limit on the percentage of people that will be interested in ham radio. We are probably close to that limit. Yes we can and will find prospective hams by active recruiting. However, given it's limited appeal, finding those people will merely enable us to maintain stability. Actually, looking at other countries with well off populations, I would suspect that we may drop from our current approximately 2 hams per thousand people down to more like 1 ham per thousand people before we finally stabilize. And we'll have to recruit diligently to stabilize even there. Dee, N8UZE Since I think that the percentage is much higher, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. However, be warned that even if you are right, I'll probably still think that it was the result of a self fulfilling prophecy by the ham community at large. Take care Dee. If we don't suffer another setback, my wife will be coming home from the hospital within a week or so. When she does, taking care of her and letting her know that I love her is gong to be my main priority until she once again achieves independence. It's going to be a 24/7 job for awhile. I'm saying that so that, when I disappear, people don't think that I got mad and took my bag of marbles home. It's just a matter of priorities. |
Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
"Dee Flint" wrote:
Although our approach will of necessity have to be different, we still must face the equivalent of market saturation. Not everyone is going to be interested in amateur radio no matter what we do and on top of that our general population growth is very slow. These issues must be considered when devising a strategy. This is why I believe the way to "save" ham radio is "quality over quantity". You cannot "save" ham radio by throwing more bodies at it. You can only save ham radio by making it such an essential service that the FCC dare not eliminate it. Look at how many people believed and still believe that Morse code kept people out. They think there is a huge number of people just waiting in the wings chomping at the bit to become hams without having to take a code test. I'll certainly be happy and excited if that happens but let's say it doesn't (and I think it won't). You and I both. Did you post your prediction for the "pool" (as to where ARS licensing numbers will be in another year? I said -1 to 0% change. While I'm sure there are *some* people who will get licensed now there is no code test, I do not think it will result in any meaningful numbers added to the service. I suspect what you will see are a rash of upgrades as Techs obtain HF privs. I wouldn't be surprised if, for the first time in many years, we actually saw a *decrease* in the number of licensed Techs (which, at the moment, is the only growing license class sans the Extra class) What then will people propose? Why... its those NASTY, pesky THEORY examinations that are holding people away, naturally. After all, if all you want to do is talk to your buddy 2 streets over on the local repeater, why do you need to know stupid things like radio wave propagation and antenna theory. All I do is call HRO, and my antenna theory arrives pre-manufacturered in a box. Maybe rather than having tests on RLC circuits we can have tests on the proper way to tighten hose clamps. We've probably got another several years until the "cell phone substitute" hams are, for the most part, gone. That's several years still of decline. With the relatively low cost of cell phones these days, we will get no more recruits from this approach although we have kept a few that came in this way. I think you'll bottom out in the mid 300k's and stay there.... Or, the rate of decline will fall off rapidly but still continue, slowly, as the ARS peters out into non-existance by the mid 2020's. The decline in CB enthusiasts is also reducing another potential source of recruits. "Radio" simply isn't 'sexy' these days, with the internet, etc. Radio-based "hobbies" are, for the most part, D-E-A-D. We need another "Smokey and the Bandit" movie to glamourize CB/Ham radio again. Perhaps they will realize that it is a recruitment and marketing issue rather than requirements. Perhaps the ARRL should work with Yaesu, Kenwood, Cushcraft, etc. to arrange for interested college clubs around the country to get free gear to set up a station. Who knows. 73 kh6hz |
Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
"KH6HZ" wrote in message ... "Dee Flint" wrote: [snip] You and I both. Did you post your prediction for the "pool" (as to where ARS licensing numbers will be in another year? I said -1 to 0% change. Yes, since it is my pool! While I'm sure there are *some* people who will get licensed now there is no code test, I do not think it will result in any meaningful numbers added to the service. I suspect what you will see are a rash of upgrades as Techs obtain HF privs. I wouldn't be surprised if, for the first time in many years, we actually saw a *decrease* in the number of licensed Techs (which, at the moment, is the only growing license class sans the Extra class) What then will people propose? Why... its those NASTY, pesky THEORY examinations that are holding people away, naturally. You do know that one definition of insanity is when you keep doing the same thing (changing requirements) but expect different results! Dee, N8UZE |
Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
On Feb 2, 4:26�pm, Bob Brock wrote:
On 2 Feb 2007 04:02:21 -0800, wrote: On Feb 2, 1:29?am, Bob Brock wrote: On Thu, 1 Feb 2007 17:44:10 -0500, "Dee Flint" Then let's discuss ways of improving that growth. What word is it that you want to get out? GOOD QUESTION! That you can talk to people in foreign lands? *hat it is a good hobby for older people who are shut in to be able to talk to new friends? *hat you can use it for reliable communications with family and friends? *ow about the public service aspects such as SKYWARN and ARIES? *his is just a quick list of things that I can think of because, as I already said, time is kind of short for me right now and I think that brainstorming is a much better method. *hat's why I suggested it. Here's my version: 1) Ham radio exists *today* 2) It's very different from other kinds of radio, such as cb, GMRS/ FRS, broadcasting, etc. 3) You can do a wide variety of things with ham radio, including some that you can't do in other radio services. There are only a few things you cannot do in ham radio (commercial operation, music. broadcasting). 4) Ham radio operation requires FCC licensing. Getting a license requires passing *multiple choice tests and making an application to FCC. 5) Ham radio is essentially "radio for its own sake" - an end in itself more than a means to an end. 6) One word: FUN! That's a good list. Thanks! What are the competitors to ham radio? *MRS, FRS, MURS, cell phones, CB, etc.? *hat are the comparative advantages and disadvantages of each of these? *hy would ham radio be a better choice. I'd be careful with that one. I can see comparative advantages for ham radio over all of the ones that I mentioned. In some situations, yes. But in most situations, those other services are preferred - *if* the only consideration is getting the communications done. For example, there was a time when auto-in-trouble (including accident) calls to 911 were commonly done via amateur radio autopatch. Today most of that is done by cell phones. I think one of the main reasons for lack of growth over the past several years has been that for a long time now ham radio has been presented as a sort of "personal radio service", with emphasis on radio as a means to an end rather than an end in itself. The problem with that approach is that as soon as a technology appears that also serves that end, we lose out. I think that we lose out to inferior services and why we do that is another thread altogether. * "Inferior services"? I say they are different, not inferior. I think it's important to understand what we are actually trying to "sell". Selling amateur radio as a personal-communications solution isn't a good idea, IMHO. I think that amateur radio will continue to exist only if it emphasizes how it is unique, rather than how it is similar to other radio services. That ham radio is unique is a selling point. It's the main selling point, IMHO, and we need to always keep it in mind. *It offers benefits that none of the others have to offer to certain demographics. Such as? Then you could discuss market demographics. *hat kind of people might be interested in ham radio? *ow about hunters and fishermen who may want to be able to talk back people who are out with them? *erhaps people who are interested in off grid living and homesteaders? Perhaps farmers who want to be able to call back to the house when they are out in the field? *ow about emergency communications like being able to either call home or get someone else to call home for you when your car is broke down? *his list too could be a lot longer. The problem is that most of what you describe is about radio as a means to an end rather than radio for its own sake. FRS, GMRS, and cell phones can already do most or all of what is written above. The thing to point out is what amateur radio can do that other radio services cannot: - Wide variety of modes and bands - Homebrew, kit or manufactured equipment, old to new technologies. - Local, regional, national, international and even space communications *without* dependence on commercial infrastructure. - Competition (radiosport) - Public service communications - Emergency communications Thank you. *It's a good list. Thanks. Once you decide what the demographics are, you could look at what kinds of media do these people read? * *can tell you right now, it's not ham specific magazines such as QST. * * * *deas that come to mind, based on the list that I've provided are the various newsgroups and list servers that cater to their needs. agazines that sell to homesteaders such as Countryside Magazine or Mother Earth. ll kinds of hunting and fishing magazines out there. *here are a lot of media outlets tailored to older people and people on a tight budget/fixed income. *ou could also look at organizations publications of specific groups. *his list too is abbreviated. This is a very good point. Here are some more ideas: - Ads/articles in boating, camping, RVing and flying magazines - Highly visible amateur radio exhibits at air shows, town fairs, parades, etc. - Community-access cable TV and public radio/TV exposure - Placement of amateur radio magazines, books and other material in local schools, particularly middle schools. Once again, a very good list and one that I agree with. Thanks yet again. Two of the barriers to people getting a ham license that I run into quite a bit are the Morse Code requirement and a lot of people don't realize that there is a difference between ham and CB. *he code barrier is gone and that is a good lead in as to why someone may want to consider ham radio even if they had dismissed it at an earlier time. I don't think the Morse Code test is the "barrier" that it is often said to be, but that's soon to be a moot point. The code/no-code thing is past us now. Almost! Three weeks. *I agree that it's time to move on to potentially productive discussions and get past hurt feelings in the past. *Of course, that's easy for me to say since I elected not to participate during the battle. I think one major point to keep in mind is how much the code test was supposedly limiting growth. We will soon see just how true that claim really was. I do think confusion between cb and Amateur Radio has really hurt growth in Amateur Radio for many years. Agreed again. *This doesn't happen often. You mean agreement? I disagree ;-) I also think that complete ignorance, or gross misunderstanding, of the *existence* of Amateur Radio is a continuing problem. Then someone could look back over the various open discussions and write an article to be submitted to any of the various media describing the advantages of ham radio over other methods. *eople who otherwise hadn't considered ham radio as an option for their particular needs may get a chance to see that it is indeed an option that would meet a need. Perhaps - but that method emphasizes "means to an end". I say the best selling point is that simply going on the air and making contacts is a heck of a lot of fun. So is designing, building, testing, fixing and repairing your own radio setup. That's what ham radio is really all about, isn't it? It's like trying to sell sailboats instead of motorboats by emphasizing how a sailboat doesn't need lots of fuel the way a motorboat does, and is only a bit slower than many motorboats. You may sell a few sailboats that way, but it's not the best approach IMHO. The way to sell sailboats is to sell the unique *experience* of sailboating itself - how it makes you feel, how much fun it is, etc. Sailing as an end in itself. Some people will "get it", most won't. Of course most people's motivations to do something are a mix of the practical and the emotional. So the ultimate goal is to appeal to both of those, not just the practical. Agreed and point taken. There are lots more. The invention of photography did not eliminate drawing, sketching and painting. The invention of the motorcycle did not eliminate the bicycle. Many homes still have fireplaces even though they have modern, efficient heating systems. It's not only a good chance to promote ham radio in a media read by someone other than hams, you might make a little money from it. *here are many here with excellent writing skills who are capable of doing it. The other option is to take a fatalistic viewpoint that the market is saturated and growth is impossible. *o that, I say that marketing is everything and right now the vast majority of marketing is keyed towards those already in ham radio. * *t's a policy that I disagree with and if no one else wants to do it, it's something that I will do alone as soon as time permits. *owever, that may be after the current widow of opportunity created by dropping the code requirement has passed and that would be truly unfortunate How something is sold is very important, though. If we sell amateur radio only by what it can do for your personal communications needs, we will always be at the mercy of the next technological improvement. Any technology is at the mercy of technological improvement. Yes and no. The invention of fiberglass did not eliminate wooden sailboats. *I think that we are using one of ham radio's biggest competitors right now. The internet is only a competitor if you don't consider radio to be an end in itself. The only advantage of ham radio over the Internet is mobility and price. *Otherwise, anything you could imagine doing via radio can be done here either via newsgroups or IRC. I disagree! An internet-capable computer can be had for almost no cost. The computer I am writing this on is a Dell Dimension XPS R400 - which cost me nothing but the time to set it up and add a few pieces (CD burner, soundcard) from other old computers. AOL with DSL costs less than POTS. That kinda eliminates price as an issue. Mobility is served in most cases by a cell phone. What amateur radio offers that the 'net and telephone don't is a completely unique experience, and freedom from dependence on a commercial infrastructure. That's not going to change with technology. However, that too is something better left to another thread. Or this one. Good luck with your family's health issues. I hope they are quickly resolved in a good way. 73 de Jim, N2EY |
Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
|
Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
On Feb 2, 10:43�pm, Mike Coslo wrote:
wrote ups.com: On Jan 30, 8:03�pm, " wrote: previous post stuff snipped * *At last, an amateur extra licensee besides Hans Brakob * *who admits what has been visible for years. * *The old paradigms are no longer worth a pair of pennies. Which old paradigms, Len? What should the old paradigms be replaced with? Element one is gone. In three weeks, yes. The hams who fought code elimination for so many years, many with unbridled hatred for uncoded hams, or even nickle Extras such as myself now are at a crossroads. Do you think I am one of those you describe, Mike? Have you ever seen me display hatred for *any* amateur radio operator who follows the rules? They can either accept the change for what it is, or become like little neutron stars, perhaps embracing their hatred, perhaps clanning together to reminisce about the good old days when hems were really hams. There's nothing wrong with opposing a change that one thinks is not a good idea. Of course there are good ways and bad ways of opposing a change. Perhaps not much consolation however in the fact that they will have become irrelevant. Why should any radio amateur be irrelevant? My experience leads me to suspect that most will choose the latter. Too bad, that. That works both ways. The new paradigm IMO should be that hams should now be expected to advance their technical skills and knowledge. That's not a new paradigm at all. It's as old as amateur radio itself. In fact, it's a very old, traditional paradigm. Basically it says that amateur radio operators are not simply users of radio appliances. IMHO. The days when a Ham's worth was measured by motor skills and auditory processing ability are gone. Operating skills are still a major part of amateur radio - and what hams should have and continue to develop. Whether or not they are tested doesn't mean those skills are no longer relevant. I'm planning on moving on and am excited by the new potential. * * * * What are you going to do? Promote amateur radio - help other hams and wouldbe hams - enjoy building, fixing, operating, teaching, and learning. IOW, the same stuff I've been doing in amateur radio for almost 40 years. No new paradigm at all. 73 de Jim, N2EY |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:30 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
RadioBanter.com