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Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
To Whom It May Concern:
Let us take a little bit better look at this “unwritten policy” here, see if we can make any logical analysis about it—get the “feel” for it, if you will. First, there are quite a bit of threads which make up the rec.radio.amateur.??? “family of threads”: rec.radio.amateur.antenna rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors rec.radio.amateur.digital.misc rec.radio.amateur.dx rec.radio.amateur.equipment rec.radio.amateur.homebrew rec.radio.amateur rec.radio.amateur.misc rec.radio.amateur.packet Do you see one which is close to say “rec.radio.amateur.new-licensees?” Or, “rec.radio.amateur.license .help?” "rec.radio.amateur.recruitment?" No, you will not find a one. Sorry thing … So, let us examine the existing threads, do any seem to be active in new recruitment/licence help? No, you don’t see much of that either. OK. So, examine them again, see may of these threads engaged in dialog about how to recruit and spark interest in potential-new licensees? No, not much of that either … Hmmm, so what do we see? We see a bunch of protective, selfish, self-serving individuals out to protect their “turf!” Now, why don’t we have more “new-blood” here? What, speak up, I can’t seem to hear you? Well, I’ll make one exception, Dee, she has expressed some desire, willing to attempt and willingness towards the above. What we really have is a bunch of these "high-mighty-self-centered-jerks" attempting to get their new club house built and escape there firmly shutting the door behind them, so as to BAR any of the above from occurring. Or, as Cecil would say, SWEET! And you doubt Len? Really? Regards, JS |
Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
John Smith I wrote:
Do you see one which is close to say "rec.radio.amateur.new-licensees?" Or, "rec.radio.amateur.license.help?" "rec.radio.amateur.recruitment?" No, you will not find a one. Sorry thing . The first two would fall under rec.radio.amateur.misc, unless there was adequate demand to justify creation of a sub-group, which there isn't, from what I've seen. Help could be many things, if you needed antenna help there is a group called .antenna, if you wanted homebrew help you could ask in .homebrew. ..misc is the "catch all" for discussions which are not applicable elsewhere. Since there is next to zero discussions concerning new licenses or help in ..misc, we can only conclude there is zero demand for such a group. The 3rd probably isn't relevant at all, since you're not very likely to do much recruiting on USENET. Google Amateur Radio and your first hit is the ARRL. 73 KH6HZ |
Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
KH6HZ wrote:
... The 3rd probably isn't relevant at all, since you're not very likely to do much recruiting on USENET. Google Amateur Radio and your first hit is the ARRL. 73 KH6HZ I think it obvious, the new amateur is not going to tolerate the ARRL, many of the old ones couldn't ... I think even the ARRL has seen that written on the wall. If you are not going to recruit from the internet, where, the dum-dums on the football field? Bars? Churches? Parks? The homeless? I am afraid the new crowd will need to come from here ... but hey, that is only one mans' opinion. JS |
Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
John Smith I wrote:
I think it obvious, the new amateur is not going to tolerate the ARRL, many of the old ones couldn't ... I think even the ARRL has seen that written on the wall. I suspect the potential amateur -- remember, the context of the discussion was recruitment and googling 'amateur radio' -- isn't very likely to have a clue about the politics of ham radio If you are not going to recruit from the internet, where, the dum-dums on the football field? Bars? Churches? Parks? The homeless? People interested in ham radio, who come on the internet to find out about ham radio, are not very likely to do it in a USENET newsgroup. They're far more likely to use a search engine to research their interest, and that research (whether good or bad, whether you like it or not) is going to point to the ARRL. Google, Yahoo, MSN all have the ARRL as their top hit for the search term 'amateur radio'. I am afraid the new crowd will need to come from here ... but hey, that is only one mans' opinion. If they came "here", e.g. RRAP, they'd run away from ham radio so fast, if they concluded even a portion of the drivel posted in this newsgroup was reflective of ham radio as a whole. 73 KH6HZ |
Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
KH6HZ wrote:
... I suspect the potential amateur -- remember, the context of the discussion was recruitment and googling 'amateur radio' -- isn't very likely to have a clue about the politics of ham radio Personally, if the applicant has "political aspirations", I would refer him/her into some .political group ... we really do NOT need them in the hobby of amateur radio--and that is possibly the greatest reason I'd like to see the absence of the ARRL. People interested in ham radio, who come on the internet to find out about ham radio, are not very likely to do it in a USENET newsgroup. They're far more likely to use a search engine to research their interest, and that research (whether good or bad, whether you like it or not) is going to point to the ARRL. USENET? I said "THE INTERNET." (however, schools and community events/functions are a good place to begin recruiting at) And, they should be shown the availability of training materials made available by just-little-plain-old-amateurs--it is much more than enough to get them through any test, else we fail again ... but, NOT ARRL materials, that will turn them away most of all. Google, Yahoo, MSN all have the ARRL as their top hit for the search term 'amateur radio'. Yes, that is a shame :( If they came "here", e.g. RRAP, they'd run away from ham radio so fast, if they concluded even a portion of the drivel posted in this newsgroup was reflective of ham radio as a whole. Personally, I do not run from a good fight, argument, not even a discussion--doesn't look like you ran too far--nor the others here with us ... Good points, all of 'em ... Warmest regards, JS |
Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
From: John Smith I on Sat, 27 Jan 2007
13:56:45 -0800 To Whom It May Concern: Ackshully, it don't concern any of the newsgroup's gods of radio. They are above such petty annoyances from low-lifes not worshippers of the Great God of Morse. But, on the sheer face of what you wrote RIGHT ON! Let us take a little bit better look at this "unwritten policy" here, see if we can make any logical analysis about it-get the "feel" for it, if you will. First, there are quite a bit of threads which make up the rec.radio.amateur.??? "family of threads": rec.radio.amateur.antenna rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors rec.radio.amateur.digital.misc rec.radio.amateur.dx rec.radio.amateur.equipment rec.radio.amateur.homebrew rec.radio.amateur rec.radio.amateur.misc rec.radio.amateur.packet Do you see one which is close to say "rec.radio.amateur.new-licensees?" Or, "rec.radio.amateur.license .help?" "rec.radio.amateur.recruitment?" No, you will not find a one. Sorry thing ... The stock answer is "That's the ARRL's Job!" "Just go to the ARRL website and order 'Now You're Talking'!" The "cod-liver oil" prescription for newbies. According to what nearly all olde-tymers in here say, they are VEs and "elmer" (teach) newbies "all the time." Strange, but, according to law, VEs only proctor examinations. Do they also break the law when "teaching" during testing time? Now a FEW may actually undertake a personal note to the "enthused." Oddly enough, the contents, phraseology, and general tone is standard boilerplate from, guess who, ARRL. Believe it or not, I've gotten a couple of those. Just a dozen years ago. That will be followed by a personal story of "being a teen- ager, collecting bus tokens and shoe leather to walk to the nearest FCC Field Office and tremble before the stern, unforgiving eyes of the FCC Agent while, in flop sweat, they gave PhD-dissertation Answers to "the hardest thing they did in their lives." Then walked back barefoot in the snow, uphill both ways. Then, to complete the troika, there is the stern admonission to "learn all you can" or "it's the start of a lifetime of learning" or "complete this and your friends and neighbors will come over and admire your (great) intellectual reward." Variations on the above abound but are the essence of the standard singing to a chorus of their peers. [high-fives all around] In here there is scant mention of radio being "fun" in and of itself. One MUST work DX on HF with CW. Doing less is FAILURE. Then there's the "Work Ethic" on morse code cognition: "One MUST constantly work, work, work to be good, work at it like nothing else in life!" and other assorted locker-room halftime shouting and hollering. "Failure is not an option!" "One MUST MUST MUST know morse!!!" "You aren't a 'good ham' if you don't!" What of those than can't "get" the code? Shun them! They are worthless beings, unfit to inhabit the same earth as the Mighty Macho Morsemen! "Stupid!" "Can't demonstrate their willingness to "work!" What of those (like me) who don't CARE to "do code?" Ah, that has been the MMM's quandry. They do NOT know how to handle such people...especially those who were active in REAL radio long before their first license. Their thoughts have always used themselves as role models, being suitably imprinted as teenagers and striving ever since to be professional amateurs! The closest they've come to "handling" such rebellious heathen is to play-act a mother (or, if Catholic, a Nun) and condescendingly admonish a "child" who has misbehaved! [Miccolis' conscious or unconscious manner] "Naughty, naughty, momma spank!" :-( So, let us examine the existing threads, do any seem to be active in new recruitment/licence help? No, you don't see much of that either. Oh, "that's the job of the ARRL!" Or of religious ministries that send their four-year-olds (who are always genius-precocious and have full adult English comprehension) for "instant" license test completion. [in 1998] Mush-minded macho middle-school misfits will always growl (in pubertic tenor tones) "Wassa matta, ya too DUMB ta pass a test?!?" Those are always unidentifiable anony- mousies hiding behind curious handles such as "Cmdr Buzz Corey" (a long-defunct failed TV character from American black-and-white TV of long-ago days). Those can be shined off, of course, but those are likely to have that adolescent atty-tood into well past middle age. What tickles me are those "personal experiences" during open-to-the-public events like Field Day. By their description civilians "always cluster around hams doing beeping morse, naturally showing an 'interest' in morse code." Ahem, those of the public crowd around the STRANGE, wondering whatinhell it is, and hardly ever give a damn about it later. Amateur morsemen do a LOT of such morse myth manufacturing. OK. So, examine them again, see may of these threads engaged in dialog about how to recruit and spark interest in potential-new licensees? No, not much of that either ... Well, as you've mentioned, Dee has paid lip service to that, but, much earlier, Hans Brakob said much more about his involvement. Hans quit trying to post in here, noise level way too high. Can't say I blame him. He is now on the MODERATOR list. Woe be unto some of the arrogant, posturing, self-centered self-appointed-gods who have crossed him in the past in here... cue Cranky Spanky "But, Len, I've had many a civil discussion with Hans...blah, blah, blah Hmmm, so what do we see? We see a bunch of protective, selfish, self-serving individuals out to protect their "turf!" Territorial Imperative! Yes, built into the human psyche. Ya know, CB on "11 meters" was created in 1958. That's 49 years ago and the HATRED of "mere civilians" occupying their precious little sliver of spectrum (largely unused at the time) knew no bounds. Especially so when there was NO CODE TEST of those (bottom-feeding river-slime civlians) to use it! That bigotry remained to rot their souls and for them to pass it on to later generations to rot the souls of those. POSSESSIVENESS! It was "theirs!" Geez. Now, why don't we have more "new-blood" here? What, speak up, I can't seem to hear you? Well, there was ONE for sure. Val Germann in Missouri. A darling of Dick Carroll, SK, then W0EX. Germann said ALL the right code words, worshipped the same code gods, was praised and honored, etc. Carroll was still living when Germann opted out. According to Brian Burke, Germann is still a Technician class, hasn't shown up in here since he bailed. Here's to "TURF:" May it always be trod. By ANYONE. Regardez silverplate, LA |
Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
On Jan 27, 5:13�pm, John Smith I wrote: KH6HZ wrote:* ... I think it obvious, the new amateur is not going to tolerate the ARRL, many of the old ones couldn't ... I think even the ARRL has seen that written on the wall. "Tolerance" or "intolerance" develops later. The obvious huge base of ARRL publications will attract most newbies. That and the constant mention of the ARRL by all the olde-tymers. Newbies haven't yet learned any better. The FACT of the matter is that the ARRL has failed to garner enough memberships from the largest class: Technician. They acknowledge their existance but do little else, preferring to go to their core membership of olde-tymers, the beepers. While the above statement cannot be proven by "official" pollsters, they can't be disproven either. A random sampling of opinions is enough to secure that for discussion (except for Cranky Spanky). ARRL is very, very secretive about its membership demographics, won't even reveal total membership but twice a year and then only for QST ad sales purposes. It does not have to reveal anything since QST has the largest readership number in the USA and is a virtual monopoly on the ad market. Advertisers are what keeps all periodicals afloat...including "membership magazines." I am afraid the new crowd will need to come from here ... but hey, that is only one mans' opinion. Not at all, John, you be wrong there. ARRL has periodical and publication racks on the floors of HRO and Radio Shack and other stores to catch all eyes. They have ads on websites but very few non-ARRL-produced periodicals having to do with radio-electronics. ARRL depends heavily on olde-tymers who were weaned on the League diamond and may know no other source of amateur radio information. Those olde-tymers are constantly mentioning the League. Word of mouth is always effective and costs the League nothing. For example, when someone asks for copies of the Question Pools, olde-tymers invariably point to the ARRL. However, the QP can be obtained directly from the folks who generate them at www.ncvec.org. Part 97 of Title 47 C.F.R. can be obtained free and are exact copies of their original printed form, directly from the Government Printing Office website through links at the FCC's website. Olde-tymers will invariably point to the ARRL again as the "source" of federal government information. ARRL "edits" the GPO copyright-free regulations "to be more readable." "More readable?" These old eyes can read GPO Codes of Federal Regulations just fine in their regular form. Part 97 is one of the smaller Parts in Title 47. Newbies will listen to olde-tymers since they haven't YET learned who are what, hence they will be indoctrinated into the League. That is part of the 'conditioned thinking' that pervades US amateur radio. The ARRL "can do no wrong" is a constant underlining to what nearly all olde-tymers say. "They control the vertical, they control the horizontal" and they have created their own outer limits which none can breach. But, look at some other things for change. Check www.ncvec.org for the number of VECs in the USA. Only one of them is the ARRL. Look at the recent (last decade) decisions from the FCC on NPRMs...the League doesn't get carte blanche on whatever it wants now...it was once just pro forma to yield to ARRL desires. New, never- before-licensed amateurs are and have been for the last decade, coming more from the no-code-test Technician class route. The ARRL was staunchly pro-code even to just past WRC-03...despite the IARU taking up their stand of having individual countries decide for themselves over a year before WRC-03. Despite all that OPEN INFORMATION, some of the League faithfull refuse to acknowledge all that, giving more rationalizations (incorrect ones at that) than a barrel full of red-hatted monkeys going beep-beep all night long. The final change will occur in February of this year. If the ARRL wishes to survive with all its "free" services intact, it needs to change with the times. It should NOT treat newbies as little kiddies to be "educated the right way." They MUST learn that their core membership (of elderly beeping gentlemen) cannot last forever. Excuses and myriad rationalizations don't cut it. It WILL be interesting to see what they do. Regardez silverplate, LA |
Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
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Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
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Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
On 28 Jan 2007 13:11:46 -0800, "
wrote: Not at all, John, you be wrong there. ARRL has periodical and publication racks on the floors of HRO and Radio Shack and other stores to catch all eyes. Not really trying to change the subject, but I went to the local bookstore and two Radio Shacks trying to get a copy of the General Class Study manual. Both Radio Shacks said that they no longer carry the study guides. So, I opted to download the questions and answers from the net for free and give that a shot. Did two Radio Shack managers lie to me? Has anyone seen the ARRL study guides? I didn't even see any of the "Now Your's Talking" books at the local stores. |
Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
"Bob Brock" wrote in message ... On 28 Jan 2007 13:11:46 -0800, " wrote: Not at all, John, you be wrong there. ARRL has periodical and publication racks on the floors of HRO and Radio Shack and other stores to catch all eyes. Not really trying to change the subject, but I went to the local bookstore and two Radio Shacks trying to get a copy of the General Class Study manual. Both Radio Shacks said that they no longer carry the study guides. So, I opted to download the questions and answers from the net for free and give that a shot. Did two Radio Shack managers lie to me? Has anyone seen the ARRL study guides? I didn't even see any of the "Now Your's Talking" books at the local stores. Radio Shack has basically gotten out of amateur radio. I haven't seen any study guides there for a couple of years. Sometimes you can get them at Barnes & Noble but you have to special order. In that case one might as well order directly off the ARRL website. The Technician license manual is no longer called "Now You're Talking". I don't recall the new name. Dee, N8UZE |
Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
"Dee Flint" wrote:
Radio Shack has basically gotten out of amateur radio. I haven't seen any study guides there for a couple of years. Me either. Radio Shack is pretty much cheaply-made, overpriced consumer electronics these days. I go in there sparingly, it seems every 6 months their focus seems to change. I think the last radio shack I went into had 50-75% of the store's floor space devoted to various cell phone accessories. If any of them have ham radio manuals laying around, it is probably old stock they haven't sold. I believe for most people, the only viable option for buying a study guide would be thru the ARRL or one of the other online sources, like W5YI. 73 kh6hz |
Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
"Dee Flint" wrote in message . .. "Bob Brock" wrote in message ... On 28 Jan 2007 13:11:46 -0800, " wrote: Not at all, John, you be wrong there. ARRL has periodical and publication racks on the floors of HRO and Radio Shack and other stores to catch all eyes. Not really trying to change the subject, but I went to the local bookstore and two Radio Shacks trying to get a copy of the General Class Study manual. Both Radio Shacks said that they no longer carry the study guides. So, I opted to download the questions and answers from the net for free and give that a shot. Did two Radio Shack managers lie to me? Has anyone seen the ARRL study guides? I didn't even see any of the "Now Your's Talking" books at the local stores. Radio Shack has basically gotten out of amateur radio. I haven't seen any study guides there for a couple of years. Sometimes you can get them at Barnes & Noble but you have to special order. In that case one might as well order directly off the ARRL website. The Technician license manual is no longer called "Now You're Talking". I don't recall the new name. Right. Radio Shack pimps the hot products for the moment. The way I see it, them not even carrying license manuals speaks volumes about demand for them. Now, when you walk into a Radio Shack and see loads of HF antennas, HF rigs, and a shelf of study guides; then you can say that Ham radio is back in demand. So, to bring this back on topic. I wonder if the intent of the average ham is to make ham radio grow or to maintain a stale status quo? The way I see it, a steady increase in qualified hams is a good thing. Ham radio needs a good infusion of new blood and the no-code tech license as a good start. However, it was only the beginning. |
Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
"KH6HZ" wrote in message ... "Dee Flint" wrote: Radio Shack has basically gotten out of amateur radio. I haven't seen any study guides there for a couple of years. Me either. Radio Shack is pretty much cheaply-made, overpriced consumer electronics these days. I go in there sparingly, it seems every 6 months their focus seems to change. I think the last radio shack I went into had 50-75% of the store's floor space devoted to various cell phone accessories. If any of them have ham radio manuals laying around, it is probably old stock they haven't sold. I believe for most people, the only viable option for buying a study guide would be thru the ARRL or one of the other online sources, like W5YI. That says a lot about the growth of ham radio doesn't it? |
Quantity Over Quality (Was: Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...)
"Bob Brock" writes:
In response to "Dee Flint" : Right. Radio Shack pimps the hot products for the moment. The way I see it, them not even carrying license manuals speaks volumes about demand for them. Now, when you walk into a Radio Shack and see loads of HF antennas, HF rigs, and a shelf of study guides; then you can say that Ham radio is back in demand. Radio Shack cannot compete with big discount houses like HRO. Several years ago Radio Shack used to sell computers as well as stereos and TVs. Now those product lines are all but missing from their stores. Why? Lack of demand? Not really. They simply cannot compete with Circuit City, Best Buy, etc. for those products. First they don't have the floor space necessary in the average Radio Shack to properly carry those goods, nor do they have the economies of scale that those other mega-retailers have. So, to bring this back on topic. I wonder if the intent of the average ham is to make ham radio grow or to maintain a stale status quo? The way I see it, a steady increase in qualified hams is a good thing. Ham radio needs a good infusion of new blood and the no-code tech license as a good start. However, it was only the beginning. Then, Addressed to KH6HZ: That says a lot about the growth of ham radio doesn't it? This is the decades-old "quantity over quality" argument which has been the crux of ham radio's incentive licensing program for the past several decades. Sustained growth in amateur radio is simply an unrealistic expectation. Today, there are 650k licensed amateurs (and decreasing) with a rough population of 300 million people. Amateur radio cannot maintain a sustained growth in terms of raw numbers of licensed amateurs. It simply will not happen. Even if you gave the licenses away with no test -- walk into Radio Shack and buy a radio and start transmitting right away -- it wouldn't happen. How many people use CB radios today compared to, say, 20 years ago? How is the FRS doing these days in terms of raw numbers? Some people, I believe miguidedly so, keep focusing on the number of licensed hams as an indicator of ham radio's health. I believe this is an incorrect focus to take. Instead, I think people should focus on quality over quantity. I ask myself this question: Which would I rather have: a) 10 guys and their wives who passed their license exams, never learned anything else, bought some gear at HRO, and now park on a 2 meter repeater and ragchew and make 'honey do' calls, or b) 3 hams who took their license exams, continue to experiment with new antennas, participate in MARS or ARES, and during emergencies help erect antennas and provide emergency communications. Personally, I'd rather have the 3 hams. The 10 guys and their wives are certainly welcome, but if I had a choice, I'd take the 3 over the 10 any day. The 3, in my opinion, help further the goals of Part 97.1 moreso than the other 10. Frankly, people need to stop focusing on raw numbers. 1 million licensed hams is meaningless if they never turn on their radios and actually use the frequencies they are allocated. Anyway, like I said, raw numbers are impossible to sustain anyway. Ham radio has a significant barriers to entry. It simply isn't going to have the "mass appeal" to the population as a whole. It is a technical hobby. Life's demands these days make it such that not many people are going to take up ham radio. Focusing on raw numbers is a losing proposition. Sure, you can continue to fiddle with the licensing system, removing more and more "barriers to entry" (aka: licensing requirements), but what is the end result? What do you do when there ARE no more "barriers to entry" (aka: licensing requirements) and 'growth' is still negative? The value of the ARS to the US isn't raw numbers -- it is having a trained pool of radio operators. IMO, a trained pool of radio operators doesn't mean you simply study, pass a test, and then you've gotten your "graduation certificate". "Ok, I passed, don't have to study any longer". What is the long-term value of that person, other than upping the body count, to the ARS? I believe (and I've stated this years ago) the focus needs to be redirected... The ARS should strive for Quality over Quantity. The doesn't mean make the tests "harder". No, they shouldn't require an BSEE to pass. Many moons ago, a few people in this forum equated morse code with a buggy whip. Unfortunately, in today's world, it isn't morse code that is the equivalent of a buggy whip, it is amateur radio as a whole. 73 kh6hz |
Quantity Over Quality (Was: Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...)
On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 12:52:16 -0500, "KH6HZ" wrote:
"Bob Brock" writes: In response to "Dee Flint" : Right. Radio Shack pimps the hot products for the moment. The way I see it, them not even carrying license manuals speaks volumes about demand for them. Now, when you walk into a Radio Shack and see loads of HF antennas, HF rigs, and a shelf of study guides; then you can say that Ham radio is back in demand. Radio Shack cannot compete with big discount houses like HRO. You must be going to the wrong Radio Shacks. I saw stereos and TV's all over the place when I went in. In theory, Radio Shack should be in a much better position to sell ham equipment than HRO provided they could sell it. If you don't believe in economy of scale, look at Wal-Mart and get back with me. |
Quantity Over Quality (Was: Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...)
"Bob Brock" wrote:
You must be going to the wrong Radio Shacks. I saw stereos and TV's all over the place when I went in. The last 4 Radio Shacks I've frequented had, perhaps 2-3k of floor space. The last one I was in was appx. 20' wide and 150' in length. There's no way such a store could carry a wide selection of TVs, stereos, computers, ham gear, etc. In theory, Radio Shack should be in a much better position to sell ham equipment than HRO provided they could sell it. If you don't believe in economy of scale, look at Wal-Mart and get back with me. Radio Shack isn't Walmart. Maybe if the typical Radio Shack had the floor space of a Walmart, you might have a point. They do not, nor will they ever. 73 kh6hz |
Quantity Over Quality (Was: Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...)
On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 14:31:55 -0500, "KH6HZ" wrote:
"Bob Brock" wrote: You must be going to the wrong Radio Shacks. I saw stereos and TV's all over the place when I went in. The last 4 Radio Shacks I've frequented had, perhaps 2-3k of floor space. The last one I was in was appx. 20' wide and 150' in length. There's no way such a store could carry a wide selection of TVs, stereos, computers, ham gear, etc. In theory, Radio Shack should be in a much better position to sell ham equipment than HRO provided they could sell it. If you don't believe in economy of scale, look at Wal-Mart and get back with me. Radio Shack isn't Walmart. Maybe if the typical Radio Shack had the floor space of a Walmart, you might have a point. Perhaps when HRO has the floor space of Radio Shack, you might have a point. They do not, nor will they ever. That was my point. You just picked the wrong two companies to compare. 73 kh6hz |
Quantity Over Quality (Was: Unwritten policy and the intent ofthe average amateur ...)
KH6HZ wrote:
"Bob Brock" writes: In response to "Dee Flint" : Right. Radio Shack pimps the hot products for the moment. The way I see it, them not even carrying license manuals speaks volumes about demand for them. Now, when you walk into a Radio Shack and see loads of HF antennas, HF rigs, and a shelf of study guides; then you can say that Ham radio is back in demand. Radio Shack cannot compete with big discount houses like HRO. I disagree, Mike. Radio Shack had its roots in selling amateur equipment when it was a Boston firm decades back. When Tandy bought it, it in good shape. It swallowed Allied Electronics back around 1970 and either closed or turned into Radio Shack stores, all of the Allied retail outlets. It owns and operates Allied Electronics as an industrial distributor. Right now the company is in search of itself. Why would people go to Radio Shack to buy bad stereo equipment or overpriced computers when the big box stores are selling better and cheaper stereo equipment and computers. Radio Shack is getting out of the parts business. If you've been into one of the outlets recently, you'll find the sales people woefully short on product knowledge. At the moment, RadShack is like a cellular phone store which pushes batteries. When Radio Shack made a decision to push amateur radio gear ten or fifteen years back, it did so mostly with Radio Shack branded equipment which was short on features and rather shoddily made. It pushed a few 2m and 70cm FM HT's and mobile transceivers and a few niche market rigs like the low power 10m transceivers. The sales people were, again, woefully short on product knowledge. If Radio decided to sell a wide variety of amateur radio equipment of assorted brands and it gave adequate sales training to its staff, it'd be a big player. It has a great distribution network and outlets all over the country. It could even dedicate a store in each major market to amateur radio sales. It could offer discount pricing and service. Unfortunately, it has never had management who "got it". I predict the company may end up disappearing in a few years if things stay the way there are. Several years ago Radio Shack used to sell computers as well as stereos and TVs. Now those product lines are all but missing from their stores. Why? Lack of demand? Not really. They simply cannot compete with Circuit City, Best Buy, etc. for those products. First they don't have the floor space necessary in the average Radio Shack to properly carry those goods, nor do they have the economies of scale that those other mega-retailers have. Competition from Circuit City, Staples, Office Depot, Office Max, Walmart, K-Mart and the like. These stores offer cheap prices compared to anything offered by RadShack. Radio Shack could easily compete with these stores. Only Circuit City has a large store dedicated to electronics. The others have departments which are no larger than the average Radio Shack store. The big box stores aren't offering ham gear and I don't think Radio Shack could be successful in selling amateur radio gear in all of its stores. We're still a very small consumer electronic market. Dave K8MN |
Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
From: Bob Brock on Mon, Jan 29 2007 12:44 am
On 28 Jan 2007 13:11:46 -0800, " wrote: Not at all, John, you be wrong there. ARRL has periodical and publication racks on the floors of HRO and Radio Shack and other stores to catch all eyes. Not really trying to change the subject, but I went to the local bookstore and two Radio Shacks trying to get a copy of the General Class Study manual. Both Radio Shacks said that they no longer carry the study guides. So, I opted to download the questions and answers from the net for free and give that a shot. Good way to go! All it cost was some time in downloading. Did two Radio Shack managers lie to me? Has anyone seen the ARRL study guides? I didn't even see any of the "Now Your's Talking" books at the local stores. Okay on those points, Bob, I agree with you. It's good that you reminded me of the differences in location and, perhaps, my "urban thinking." Just to get organized, I started thinking about "radio parts" from my perspective: I've lived in a large urban location for 50 years, one that was once a center of aerospace technology, now slowly lessening as more corporations opt out for lower-taxation states. Lockheed Aircraft was one of the first biggies to go, leaving behind a HUGE production area that was razed and rebuilt as an enormous shopping center (I never worked for Lockheed). Hughes Aircraft (electronics, Hughes Tool Co. built aircraft...) got gobbled up by larger corporations and morphed, retaining only the logo. As a result of all that growth and change in aerospace and electronics there is a huge electronic-hobbyist interest around my neck of the woods. Some of that is in amateur radio and "six-land" has a very large population of licensed amateurs. With all that hobby activity going on there are a large number of retail outlets, chains and independents alike, within relatively easy driving distance. This area is one large incorporated city with several smaller incorporated cities and 80+ suburbs all interconnected with streets, not roads. Area population is somewhere in the neighborhood of 8 million (give or take). I don't go out to "radio stores" often. There was an HRO outlet in a mini-mall across the major intersection where my wife and I shop for food regularly. That HRO moved to another part of Burbank late last year. I haven't been in the new location but would expect it to be the same as in the previous site and in the Van Nuys location it had been before that. Right next to it (in the mini-mall) is a small Radio Shack that I would go to only for replacement watch batteries or buy some inexpensive gifts for non- radio friends. There are two other Radio Shack outlets in Burbank that I know of, one long-situated corner store in its "downtown" and another in the three-story indoor Mall less than a mile from it. Within 5 miles driving are at least a half dozen Radio Shack stores...and about four other electronics component stores that aren't chained nationally...plus a couple of 'surplus' (civil, not military) electronic outlests slightly farther away and several telephone book pages of listings for outlets within about 15 miles driving. For personal computers I've got a choice of the totally awesome Fry's Electronics consumer electronics supermarket in what was an old Lockheed Aircraft building (they have at least 3 dozen "checkout stands") 2 miles away and a PC Club store 3 miles away. Frys has an aisle of just components, maybe heavy on computer-related parts but applicable to "radio" as well. I mention that not to brag but just to describe the local urban area where I live and have lived for 50 years. Now, I CAN be accused of "not paying attention" to smaller geographic locations in the USA and am "guilty" of not "keeping up a running inventory" at each store. :-) Mea culpa, mea culpa. But, I don't think that is a terrible felony crime...certain others in here WILL! :-) In rummaging through my memory, I recall that Radio Shack had, in the past, carried ARRL publications. So did the Electronic City store in Burbank, a store that was there longer than I've lived in the neighboring L.A. suburb of Sun Valley. Electronic City went to sound and video equipment to suit the growing local business of film and TV production, phasing out its amateur radio equipment sales, emphasizing off-shore components suitable for all kinds of non-radio hobby activities (those can be used in ham radios since there isn't any difference in physics despite the protestations of some amateur barracks lawyers). Yeah, I've confused the HRO contents of the old mini-mall location with its former next-door neighbor, the little Radio Shack store, I suppose. :-( Haven't taken inventory in the other two RS outlets but have gotten some catalogs at those; can't remember which one gave out the catalogs. At that former HRO location I did buy an ARRL Handbook on CD as a gift for a friend about four years ago (?). I can't remember if Electronic City in Burbank still has a floor rack of Amidon toroids since I wasn't looking for those a year ago; Bill Amidon started that in Burbank, CA, years ago. If I want toroid cores, powdered-iron or ferrite, I either go to Dieter's "Kits and Parts" website, ordering by e-mail, or (if a large quantity) directly to Micrometals or Ferroxcube or one of their distributors. I'm not a "casual week-end hobbyist" person but do a mixture of actual paid-for-services work (professional by definition) or very unpaid-for-except-by-me (amateur by definition of monetary compensation). Just to keep from running out to "radio stores" constantly, I keep a stock of 10% tolerance-vales but 5% real quarter-Watt resistors, 50 to 100 each, from 10 Ohms to 10 MegOhms. Those cost me all of a couple pennies each from Allied, ordered on-line when they had a special. I've ordered a 60 MHz 'scope and triple-outlet, metered power supply from Circuit Specialists by e-mail when they had a special sale on those. I can and have ordered other electronic parts from Digi-Key, Newark, Mouser, Ocean State (in Rhode Island) and Jameco (in CA bay area), all by e-mail...other than Avnet (for the 'business side' of this shop). As "John Smith I" said in another thread, the Internet has become a part of social fabric and I will vouch for it to be a part of consumer commerce. My wife and I sort of tested that in 1999 by ordering an eastern king dual adjustable air- mattress bed by e-mail. It was shipped from two locations (Florida and California), assembled by us, and still works just fine today. At half the price of retail store cost...from stores we couldn't reach by car. No problems in billing, purchase, or even traceable e-spam as a result of that order. The amount of shopping one can do on-line is enormous and, usually, worthwhile. Amazon, as an example, sells much more than books...but some ARRL publications can be ordered through them...at the same prices as what ARRL charges on-line but, no shipping charges on large purchases. :-) I was born and raised in an Illinois city of about 50K, now grown to about 180K in population. In 1948 it boasted (yes, boasted then) of having TWO "radio parts stores," only one of which concerned amateur radio things. We've been back there several times since but I've not gone shopping for electronics any one of those times. I HAVE noticed what Hans Brakob mentioned here several years ago about the decrease of "ham radio outlets." I agree to that, having seen the same thing. But, I'm not focussed on just ham radio. I exist in more of the larger "radio" world (actually electronics world, radio is a subset of that). Yes, I'm guilty of not keeping EXACT track of ARRL products. I've only heard about those for over a half century...and keep hearing about them (described in glowing terms) just about every day in here. :-) I realize that small (relative) geographical locations don't have as much of most anything as "big cities." I really can't help that, but the PEOPLE in all areas seem to have common personal desires and needs and the marketplace actually RULES what is available where and for how much. Sometimes we have to go "scrounging" outside our local area to get what we want. The way I see it the Internet has been a fantastic LEVELER for all in that "scrounging." The local delivery shipping companies help that along everywhere in the USA. Shopping can start in one's computer and wind up with the product right to one's front door. Cheers, |
Quantity Over Quality (Was: Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...)
On Jan 29, 3:32�pm, Dave Heil wrote: KH6HZ wrote: "Bob Brock" writes: In response to "Dee Flint" : Right. *Radio Shack pimps the hot products for the moment. The way I see it, them not even carrying license manuals speaks volumes about demand for them. *Now, when you walk into a Radio Shack and see loads of HF antennas, HF rigs, and a shelf of study guides; then you can say that Ham radio is back in demand. Radio Shack cannot compete with big discount houses like HRO.I disagree, Mike. *Radio Shack had its roots in selling amateur equipment when it was a Boston firm decades back. *When Tandy bought it, it in good shape. *It swallowedAlliedElectronics back around 1970 and either closed or turned into Radio Shack stores, all of theAllied retail outlets. *It owns and operatesAlliedElectronics as an industrial distributor. *Right now the company is in search of itself. Really? Wow, Allied is LYING to us! I just pulled down the 2007 Allied catalog from the shelf, the one that arrived at the end of last year. 2,192 pages, 8 1/2 x 11 format. It's about 2 13/16 inch thick. I looked at the corporate address on the back page: Allied An Electrocomponents Company 7410 Pebble Drive Fort Worth TX 76116 I've ordered from them via Internet. As a result I'm on their "announcements" e-mail list. I remember Allied from its beginning days in Chicago, IL. Back in 1956 they had a large store there selling 1956-era electronic parts. Can't see a thing about "Tandy" in that catalog. I was unaware that they were once a "ham radio supplier." All the time I thought they supplied parts to the electronics industry. Thanks for clearing that up. It's always a treat to hop in here and get the "real low-down" from the ... Oh, and that 2007 Allied catalog sits next to the Mouser 2006 catalog #628...almost as big in size and pages. Those two sit next to the Jameco February 2007 catalog, not as big but sure looks like it is going to be a very big distributor some day. It's nice to see all those distributors have "found themselves." Regardez, LA |
Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
"Bob Brock" wrote in message news:_Eovh.2876$ch1.1567@bigfe9... "Dee Flint" wrote in message . .. "Bob Brock" wrote in message ... On 28 Jan 2007 13:11:46 -0800, " wrote: Not at all, John, you be wrong there. ARRL has periodical and publication racks on the floors of HRO and Radio Shack and other stores to catch all eyes. Not really trying to change the subject, but I went to the local bookstore and two Radio Shacks trying to get a copy of the General Class Study manual. Both Radio Shacks said that they no longer carry the study guides. So, I opted to download the questions and answers from the net for free and give that a shot. Did two Radio Shack managers lie to me? Has anyone seen the ARRL study guides? I didn't even see any of the "Now Your's Talking" books at the local stores. Radio Shack has basically gotten out of amateur radio. I haven't seen any study guides there for a couple of years. Sometimes you can get them at Barnes & Noble but you have to special order. In that case one might as well order directly off the ARRL website. The Technician license manual is no longer called "Now You're Talking". I don't recall the new name. Right. Radio Shack pimps the hot products for the moment. The way I see it, them not even carrying license manuals speaks volumes about demand for them. Now, when you walk into a Radio Shack and see loads of HF antennas, HF rigs, and a shelf of study guides; then you can say that Ham radio is back in demand. So, to bring this back on topic. I wonder if the intent of the average ham is to make ham radio grow or to maintain a stale status quo? The way I see it, a steady increase in qualified hams is a good thing. Ham radio needs a good infusion of new blood and the no-code tech license as a good start. However, it was only the beginning. It will be very tough to grow ham radio. We've "saturated the market" so to speak. If you check around the internet (for example, Speroni's site is one), you can find the statistics on a few of the other countries. We have 2 hams per thousand people while Europe is running more like 1 ham per thousand people. While we need to actively recruit, there just aren't a lot of people out there that are inclined to amateur radio as a part of their leisure pursuits. We will have to recruit hard just to stay at the current level. It would not surprise me if our numbers dropped in half over the next decade or so before leveling out. Dee, N8UZE |
Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
"Bob Brock" wrote in message news:CFovh.2878$ch1.1742@bigfe9... "KH6HZ" wrote in message ... "Dee Flint" wrote: Radio Shack has basically gotten out of amateur radio. I haven't seen any study guides there for a couple of years. Me either. Radio Shack is pretty much cheaply-made, overpriced consumer electronics these days. I go in there sparingly, it seems every 6 months their focus seems to change. I think the last radio shack I went into had 50-75% of the store's floor space devoted to various cell phone accessories. If any of them have ham radio manuals laying around, it is probably old stock they haven't sold. I believe for most people, the only viable option for buying a study guide would be thru the ARRL or one of the other online sources, like W5YI. That says a lot about the growth of ham radio doesn't it? Not really. It says more about the fact that stores across the board have little interest in serving the niche markets. Once upon a time, Radio Shack did cater to hams. At that time not only were the hams fewer in number than today but they were also a smaller percentage of the population than now. At the time, Radio Shack did serve the niche market of hams (among others). But time has marched on and most businesses can't serve the niche markets cost effectively. Ham radio isn't the only area where one must resort to the Internet to find the products they want. Dee, N8UZE |
Quantity Over Quality (Was: Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...)
"Bob Brock" wrote:
Perhaps when HRO has the floor space of Radio Shack, you might have a point. HRO doesn't compete against Radio Shack in the same market. Radio Shack is consumer goods, HRO sells in a niche market. Radio Shack is retail, HRO is mainly mail order. |
Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
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Quantity Over Quality (Was: Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...)
On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 22:30:06 -0500, "KH6HZ" wrote:
"Bob Brock" wrote: Perhaps when HRO has the floor space of Radio Shack, you might have a point. HRO doesn't compete against Radio Shack in the same market. Radio Shack is consumer goods, HRO sells in a niche market. Radio Shack is retail, HRO is mainly mail order. And that was my point. If it reaches the stage where radio shack (or Wal-Mart) has jumped on the band wagon, we may need to worry about overpopulating the bands. As long as the only place to find equipment is pretty much mail order to a "niche market," growth is good. BTW, there was a time that Radio Shack targeted a "niche market." However, those times are long past. IMO, their products were poorly made knock offs of good equipment. The other option is for the last ham to turn off the lights before he dies out and the bands are sold to commercial interests. |
Quantity Over Quality (Was: Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...)
On 29 Jan 2007 16:44:02 -0800, "
wrote: On Jan 29, 3:32?pm, Dave Heil wrote: KH6HZ wrote: "Bob Brock" writes: In response to "Dee Flint" : Right. adio Shack pimps the hot products for the moment. The way I see it, them not even carrying license manuals speaks volumes about demand for them. ow, when you walk into a Radio Shack and see loads of HF antennas, HF rigs, and a shelf of study guides; then you can say that Ham radio is back in demand. Radio Shack cannot compete with big discount houses like HRO.I disagree, Mike. adio Shack had its roots in selling amateur equipment when it was a Boston firm decades back. hen Tandy bought it, it in good shape. t swallowedAlliedElectronics back around 1970 and either closed or turned into Radio Shack stores, all of theAllied retail outlets. t owns and operatesAlliedElectronics as an industrial distributor. ight now the company is in search of itself. Really? Wow, Allied is LYING to us! I just pulled down the 2007 Allied catalog from the shelf, the one that arrived at the end of last year. 2,192 pages, 8 1/2 x 11 format. It's about 2 13/16 inch thick. I looked at the corporate address on the back page: Allied An Electrocomponents Company 7410 Pebble Drive Fort Worth TX 76116 I've ordered from them via Internet. As a result I'm on their "announcements" e-mail list. I remember Allied from its beginning days in Chicago, IL. Back in 1956 they had a large store there selling 1956-era electronic parts. Can't see a thing about "Tandy" in that catalog. I was unaware that they were once a "ham radio supplier." All the time I thought they supplied parts to the electronics industry. Thanks for clearing that up. It's always a treat to hop in here and get the "real low-down" from the ... Sometimes it's easier to just do a quick Google search and you find things like this... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_Radio Allied Radio would change ownership in 1970 when Radio Shack's parent company (Tandy Corporation) bought both Allied Radio & Allied Electronics. The retail division was merged with Tandy's retail unit to become Allied Radio Shack, with the main office of both divisions moving to Fort Worth, Texas. But as a result of the merger, many major shopping centers would have two Allied Radio Shack stores competing for the same dollars. As a result, the former Allied Radio storefronts would fade away, with the former Radio Shack stores taking on both product lines (and the expense of the extra inventory.) This was in some ways a more difficult task as the original Radio Shack storefronts were typically smaller than the Allied Radio stores. By 1973 due directly to federal court action, Tandy was ordered to divest itself of Allied Radio, but by that time with the purging of duplicate stock and closing of low volume stores, there was very little left to sell off, and the Tandy stores would once again bear the Radio Shack name. Since Tandy did not have a commercial-industrial supply division, Allied Electronics would continue as a "Division of Tandy Corporation" that served the manufacturing sector until the mid-1980s when it began to change owners. Oh, and that 2007 Allied catalog sits next to the Mouser 2006 catalog #628...almost as big in size and pages. Those two sit next to the Jameco February 2007 catalog, not as big but sure looks like it is going to be a very big distributor some day. It's nice to see all those distributors have "found themselves." Regardez, LA |
Quantity Over Quality (Was: Unwritten policy and the intent ofthe average amateur ...)
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Quantity Over Quality (Was: Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...)
From: Bob Brock on Mon, Jan 29 2007 11:10 pm On 29 Jan 2007 16:44:02 -0800, " wrote: On Jan 29, 3:32?pm, Dave Heil wrote: KH6HZ wrote: "Bob Brock" writes: In response to "Dee Flint" : Right. adio Shack pimps the hot products for the moment. The way I see it, them not even carrying license manuals speaks volumes about demand for them. ow, when you walk into a Radio Shack and see loads of HF antennas, HF rigs, and a shelf of study guides; then you can say that Ham radio is back in demand. Radio Shack cannot compete with big discount houses like HRO.I disagree, Mike. adio Shack had its roots in selling amateur equipment when it was a Boston firm decades back. hen Tandy bought it, it in good shape. t swallowedAlliedElectronics back around 1970 and either closed or turned into Radio Shack stores, all of theAllied retail outlets. t owns and operatesAlliedElectronics as an industrial distributor. ight now the company is in search of itself. Really? Wow, Allied is LYING to us! I just pulled down the 2007 Allied catalog from the shelf, the one that arrived at the end of last year. 2,192 pages, 8 1/2 x 11 format. It's about 2 13/16 inch thick. I looked at the corporate address on the back page: Allied An Electrocomponents Company 7410 Pebble Drive Fort Worth TX 76116 I've ordered from them via Internet. As a result I'm on their "announcements" e-mail list. I remember Allied from its beginning days in Chicago, IL. Back in 1956 they had a large store there selling 1956-era electronic parts. Can't see a thing about "Tandy" in that catalog. I was unaware that they were once a "ham radio supplier." All the time I thought they supplied parts to the electronics industry. Thanks for clearing that up. It's always a treat to hop in here and get the "real low-down" from the ... Sometimes it's easier to just do a quick Google search and you find things like this... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_Radio Bob, thanks for the "Wiki-up" on Allied, including Allied Radio. If you haven't been here for years, you might not understand how Heil's "game" is played. :-) Let me explain: A long time ago, in a State department far away, Heil got totally ****ed with me in here for not going overboard with gratuitous praise and congratulations on his mighty efforts at hamming embassies in the middle of Africa. Especially Guinea-Bisseau. Since then he's seen fit to "correct" me as much as possible. Gotta love it when he tries SO hard! :-) [he *IS* a code-tested extra and thus very "superior"] I am not interested in ALLIED (Radio or by the single name) corporate history. I'm only interested in the parts they sell, the price for those parts, and whether or not they have them in stock. So much the better if the signs point to them staying in business over a year from now. If not, I look for another distributor that sells in small to large quantities (there are many of them in the USA and Canada). No sweat there. I am well acquainted with "Allied Radio" and actually was in there store in the second week of February, 1956, my Dad with me (I had gone along with his meeting of some model industry supers, then to Fort Sheridan to see if my footlocker had arrived yet...it hadn't). Large store interior but almost entirely displays of parts and some instruments, which made me a bit disappointed in a way. Expected more. I had ordered "radio parts" from them in 1948 and then in 1954 while in the Army in Japan, had always seen their ads in publications of that time. [I built a thermin for a buddy in '54, he being a music instructor in civilian life] Allied Radio catalogs were very thin in those days, perhaps the thickest I remember is around 3/8 inch. Yes, they has "radio parts" but their market was mainly industry and the electronic hobbies went beyond radio then. Chicago was "far away" at 90 miles before I entered the Army. :-) ALLIED's 2007 catalog is BIG at over 2000 pages. I'm not going to look at "all" of them to see if "Tandy" is mentioned despite Heil's insistence that 20-year-old corporate history is SOOOOO important! :-) ALLIED is very much IN BUSINESS and looks to stay that way for a long time. By e-mail or by voice telephone the staff is nice and obliging, on-the-job...no detectable Indian accents. :-) I've gotten a few samples from Chicago electronic companies shipped from ALLIED stock, believe it or not. Good service. A great problem with some olde-tyme hammes is that NONE of the biggie electronics parts distributors stock much HF "radio" parts that they expect. The parts market just isn't there any more. Real radio parts are involved at frequencies higher than HF. Those are in abundance. Anyone who wants old-style HF "radio" parts has to go to smaller mail outlets such as Ocean State Electronics. But, they will be shocked by the high prices charged, not at all as low as when they were adolescents. The same with "plate and filament" transformers. About the only outlet in North America for stock parts is a Hammond division up in Canada (distributed by Mouser down here). Fine products I hear, but the cost is high. Electronics parts are, and have been for decades, oriented to lower-voltage semiconductor technology. What was once a provence of ham radio builders is now much much larger in favor of computer-digital components. Vacuum tubes (from new, old stock), if you can get them, now cost five times what they did in 1960 and go up from there. The old days are GONE. They won't come back as they once were. Now, as to Heil, he doesn't know his chain gets yanked and his buttons pushed by me. :-) That's part of my game whenever he puts on the Waffen SS persona and tells me "you never did such a thing!" or puts on the little red hat while dancing to organ-grinder Miccolis' tune on "corrections." It is both funny and tragic that they carry on like they do, but that's their way in here. Shrug...I've seen worse on BBSs after first doing computer-modem comms 22 years ago. Usually I just shine them off but the chain-yanking and button-pushing urge gets irresistable and off we go. Poor Heil doesn't realize he's been controlled every time he tries to control others! :-) Gotta love it...! :-) Regards, |
Quantity Over Quality (Was: Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...)
On Jan 29, 1:02�pm, Bob Brock wrote: On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 12:52:16 -0500, "KH6HZ" wrote: "Bob Brock" writes: In response to "Dee Flint" : Right. *Radio Shack pimps the hot products for the moment. The way I see it, them not even carrying license manuals speaks volumes about demand for them. *Now, when you walk into a Radio Shack and see loads of HF antennas, HF rigs, and a shelf of study guides; then you can say that Ham radio is back in demand. Radio Shack cannot compete with big discount houses like HRO. You must be going to the wrong Radio Shacks. *I saw stereos and TV's all over the place when I went in. But you didn't see computers, did you? Once upon a time, RS was fairly big player in the consumer computer market. But then they found it was too competitive a market, and they could not compete with computer stores like CompUSA, MicroCenter, etc. Now RS sells cables, adapters, disks, etc., but not computers. *In theory, Radio Shack should be in a much better position to sell ham equipment than HRO provided they could sell it. *If you don't believe in economy of scale, look at Wal-Mart and get back with me. Right - and Wal-Mart doesn't sell ham gear. The economy of scale situation in ham radio today is mail order/ internet sales, plus hamfest/conventions. because they're the most competitive for most things. Some manufacturers sell don't sell through dealers at all - Ten Tec and Elecraft are two examples. In the bad old days, there were "radio parts stores" here in the Philadelphia area. Plus we had mail order to Allied, Newark and Lafayette. Today the parts stores are gone but the mail order is bigger than ever: Allied and Newark are still around, plus Mouser and Digi-Key. btw, Digi-Key got its name because it started out as a tiny mailorder business about 1968. They sold RTL logic chips to hams for Morse Code keyers. QST, APril 1968. Then they added some popular transistors, and sockets, and resistors....and the rest is history. The radio parts stores existed, IMHO, because electronics weren't that reliable back then - and they were expensive. TVs, radios, "hi-fis", ham gear, etc., were usually fixed rather than discarded if they stopped working, and those stores sold a steady stream of parts to keep them working. There were also lots of hams and nonhams building stuff from scratch to save money over buying, or to build things that nobody manufactured. All that has changed. Most consumer electronics is so reliable and so inexpensive now that when it fails it is usually simply replaced. Plus the cost of labor often makes it uneconomical to fix a failed device. In fact, much of it is replaced *before* it fails. So the repair parts business isn't what it was. In most cases, you won't save money building electronic devices from new parts *if* a similar item is manufactured by some company already, because they get their parts in quantity and you don't. Any savings come from using parts that are not bought new, and custom designs that nobody manufactures. The way to "sell" ham radio is simply to make it more visible to the general public. The biggest barrier to that, IMHO, is anti-antenna restrictions that are more common and more onerous every year. How many of us first became aware of the existence of local amateurs by seeing their antennas? 73 de Jim, N2EY |
Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...
On Jan 29, 10:27 pm, "Dee Flint" wrote:
"Bob Brock" wrote in message news:CFovh.2878$ch1.1742@bigfe9... "KH6HZ" wrote in message ... "Dee Flint" wrote: Radio Shack has basically gotten out of amateur radio. I haven't seen any study guides there for a couple of years. Me either. Radio Shack is pretty much cheaply-made, overpriced consumer electronics these days. I go in there sparingly, it seems every 6 months their focus seems to change. I think the last radio shack I went into had 50-75% of the store's floor space devoted to various cell phone accessories. If any of them have ham radio manuals laying around, it is probably old stock they haven't sold. I believe for most people, the only viable option for buying a study guide would be thru the ARRL or one of the other online sources, like W5YI. That says a lot about the growth of ham radio doesn't it? Not really. It says more about the fact that stores across the board have little interest in serving the niche markets. Once upon a time, Radio Shack did cater to hams. At that time not only were the hams fewer in number than today but they were also a smaller percentage of the population than now. At the time, Radio Shack did serve the niche market of hams (among others). But time has marched on and most businesses can't serve the niche markets cost effectively. Ham radio isn't the only area where one must resort to the Internet to find the products they want. Dee, N8UZE- Hide quoted text - They have no problems serving niche markets (i.e., "press 1 for English"). How many illegals do you think are interested in amateur radio? Hola Hablo/Habla Porky Radio? ;^) |
Quantity Over Quality (Was: Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...)
On 30 Jan 2007 02:14:40 -0800, wrote:
On Jan 29, 1:02?pm, Bob Brock wrote: On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 12:52:16 -0500, "KH6HZ" wrote: "Bob Brock" writes: In response to "Dee Flint" : Right. adio Shack pimps the hot products for the moment. The way I see it, them not even carrying license manuals speaks volumes about demand for them. ow, when you walk into a Radio Shack and see loads of HF antennas, HF rigs, and a shelf of study guides; then you can say that Ham radio is back in demand. Radio Shack cannot compete with big discount houses like HRO. You must be going to the wrong Radio Shacks. saw stereos and TV's all over the place when I went in. But you didn't see computers, did you? Once upon a time, RS was fairly big player in the consumer computer market. But then they found it was too competitive a market, and they could not compete with computer stores like CompUSA, MicroCenter, etc. Now RS sells cables, adapters, disks, etc., but not computers. http://www.radioshack.com/family/ind...356&cp=2032061 n theory, Radio Shack should be in a much better position to sell ham equipment than HRO provided they could sell it. f you don't believe in economy of scale, look at Wal-Mart and get back with me. Right - and Wal-Mart doesn't sell ham gear. The economy of scale situation in ham radio today is mail order/ internet sales, plus hamfest/conventions. because they're the most competitive for most things. Some manufacturers sell don't sell through dealers at all - Ten Tec and Elecraft are two examples. Don't confuse lack of customers with economy of scale. Those little guys can't compete with the big boys any better than the local shops can compete with Wal-Mart. In the bad old days, there were "radio parts stores" here in the Philadelphia area. Plus we had mail order to Allied, Newark and Lafayette. Today the parts stores are gone but the mail order is bigger than ever: Allied and Newark are still around, plus Mouser and Digi-Key. btw, Digi-Key got its name because it started out as a tiny mailorder business about 1968. They sold RTL logic chips to hams for Morse Code keyers. QST, APril 1968. Then they added some popular transistors, and sockets, and resistors....and the rest is history. The radio parts stores existed, IMHO, because electronics weren't that reliable back then - and they were expensive. TVs, radios, "hi-fis", ham gear, etc., were usually fixed rather than discarded if they stopped working, and those stores sold a steady stream of parts to keep them working. There were also lots of hams and nonhams building stuff from scratch to save money over buying, or to build things that nobody manufactured. All that has changed. Most consumer electronics is so reliable and so inexpensive now that when it fails it is usually simply replaced. Plus the cost of labor often makes it uneconomical to fix a failed device. In fact, much of it is replaced *before* it fails. So the repair parts business isn't what it was. In most cases, you won't save money building electronic devices from new parts *if* a similar item is manufactured by some company already, because they get their parts in quantity and you don't. Any savings come from using parts that are not bought new, and custom designs that nobody manufactures. I see that, in certain instances, you do understand economy of scale. Why you reject other identical instances is a mystery to me. The way to "sell" ham radio is simply to make it more visible to the general public. The biggest barrier to that, IMHO, is anti-antenna restrictions that are more common and more onerous every year. How many of us first became aware of the existence of local amateurs by seeing their antennas? I wouldn't know since that doesn't apply to me. I became interested in ham radio and SWL when I met the guy who came out to replace some tubes in my Grandfather's TV. Back then most commercial radio was AM and you could listen to stations from all over late at night on a regular radio. The guy gave me a used short wave radio and I've been hooked ever since. That was a long time ago though and the new generations have different motivators. I think that one of the biggest motivators is the stigma of current CB operations and that a lot of people don't recognize the difference between the two. |
Quantity Over Quality (Was: Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...)
On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 09:11:53 -0500, Bob Brock
wrote: That was a long time ago though and the new generations have different motivators. I think that one of the biggest motivators is the stigma of current CB operations and that a lot of people don't recognize the difference between the two. Oops. I meant to type de motivators instead of "motivators." |
Quantity Over Quality (Was: Unwritten policy and the intent ofthe average amateur ...)
wrote:
From: Bob Brock on Mon, Jan 29 2007 11:10 pm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_Radio Bob, thanks for the "Wiki-up" on Allied, including Allied Radio. If you haven't been here for years, you might not understand how Heil's "game" is played. :-) Let me explain: There was no game, Leonard. I supplied you factual information. Your response was something about Allied lying. A long time ago, in a State department far away, Heil got totally ****ed with me in here for not going overboard with gratuitous praise and congratulations on his mighty efforts at hamming embassies in the middle of Africa. [deliberate factual errors] Especially Guinea-Bisseau. "Guinea-Bissau", Len, but not especially. Since then he's seen fit to "correct" me as much as possible. Gotta love it when he tries SO hard! :-) ....and succeeds so often. :-) [he *IS* a code-tested extra and thus very "superior"] In amateur radio, Len, every licensed op is superior to you. You aren't involved. I am not interested in ALLIED (Radio or by the single name) corporate history. I'm only interested in the parts they sell, the price for those parts, and whether or not they have them in stock. You seemed extremely interested just a post or two back. You were, you stated, around for the company's birth. So much the better if the signs point to them staying in business over a year from now. If not, I look for another distributor that sells in small to large quantities (there are many of them in the USA and Canada). No sweat there. No one indicated that you should sweat, Len. I happened to be commenting on Radio Shack and Tandy's acquisition and takeover of the Allied in 1970. You felt the need to come in with keyboard blazing. I am well acquainted with "Allied Radio" and actually was in there store in the second week of February, 1956, my Dad with me (I had gone along with his meeting of some model industry supers, then to Fort Sheridan to see if my footlocker had arrived yet...it hadn't). Large store interior but almost entirely displays of parts and some instruments, which made me a bit disappointed in a way. Expected more. I had ordered "radio parts" from them in 1948 and then in 1954 while in the Army in Japan, had always seen their ads in publications of that time. [I built a thermin for a buddy in '54, he being a music instructor in civilian life] Allied Radio catalogs were very thin in those days, perhaps the thickest I remember is around 3/8 inch. Yes, they has "radio parts" but their market was mainly industry and the electronic hobbies went beyond radio then. Chicago was "far away" at 90 miles before I entered the Army. :-) That's a nice story, Len. Almost all electronic distributors of that day also sold amateur radio equipment and, in that time, almost no one discounted any of it. ALLIED's 2007 catalog is BIG at over 2000 pages. I'm not going to look at "all" of them to see if "Tandy" is mentioned despite Heil's insistence that 20-year-old corporate history is SOOOOO important! :-) You didn't need to look. I provided you with a quote from the company's history and Bob provided you with a Wikipedia link and post info from that site. I never stressed any importance of the company history. You didn't like it that you were wrong. Deal with it. You're often wrong. ALLIED is very much IN BUSINESS and looks to stay that way for a long time. By e-mail or by voice telephone the staff is nice and obliging, on-the-job...no detectable Indian accents. :-) I've gotten a few samples from Chicago electronic companies shipped from ALLIED stock, believe it or not. Good service. I'm very happy for you, Len. A great problem with some olde-tyme hammes is that NONE of the biggie electronics parts distributors stock much HF "radio" parts that they expect. The parts market just isn't there any more. Real radio parts are involved at frequencies higher than HF. Those are in abundance. Anyone who wants old-style HF "radio" parts has to go to smaller mail outlets such as Ocean State Electronics. But, they will be shocked by the high prices charged, not at all as low as when they were adolescents. One can go to a tiny place like RF Parts Company and find lots of HF radio parts, even high power components and transmitting tubes of all varieties for amplifiers. The same with "plate and filament" transformers. About the only outlet in North America for stock parts is a Hammond division up in Canada (distributed by Mouser down here). Hammond is distributed by many distributors. Fine products I hear, but the cost is high. Hammond makes very high quality products and the cost is not high at all. The company also produces a quality line of die cast boxes of almost any size. Electronics parts are, and have been for decades, oriented to lower-voltage semiconductor technology. That's true to an extent. There is still a sizable market for high power RF components in commercial radio, industry and amateur radio. What was once a provence of ham radio builders is now much much larger in favor of computer-digital components. "Province", Len. There are still numerous manufacturers of radio equipment which require radio components. Vacuum tubes (from new, old stock), if you can get them, now cost five times what they did in 1960 and go up from there. There are still numerous vacuum tubes produced by Russian, Chinese and U.S. makers. I'm glad that they only cost five times what they did in 1960. Many things I buy today cost ten or more times what I would have paid in 1960. Have you bought a pack of chewing gum or a rib-eye steak lately? The old days are GONE. They won't come back as they once were. That's right, Len. There's no long a Johnson Messenger vacuum tube CB radio being made. Now, as to Heil, he doesn't know his chain gets yanked and his buttons pushed by me. :-) Oh, you're a regular puppet master, Len. You're the great and powerful Wizard of Odds. That's part of my game whenever he puts on the Waffen SS persona and tells me "you never did such a thing!" or puts on the little red hat while dancing to organ-grinder Miccolis' tune on "corrections." I have to ask Len: How did you come up with the fiendishly clever part of your scheme in which you end up looking so foolish? It is both funny and tragic that they carry on like they do, but that's their way in here. Actually, Len, you have it slightly wrong. You carry on like you do and wonder why folks don't take to your nonsense. Shrug...I've seen worse on BBSs after first doing computer-modem comms 22 years ago. Usually I just shine them off but the chain-yanking and button-pushing urge gets irresistable and off we go. Poor Heil doesn't realize he's been controlled every time he tries to control others! :-) Gotta love it...! :-) I musta been hIp-No-tiZeD! The funny part is where you put both of your brogans into your yap in your sidewalk superintendent persona. I found a Shinola ad in an old magazine the other day, Len. I think I'll scan it and provide a link to the ad. It'll be a reminder of one of the things you don't know. Regards, See IEEE Code of Ethics Dave K8MN |
Quantity Over Quality (Was: Unwritten policy and the intent ofthe average amateur ...)
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Quantity Over Quality (Was: Unwritten policy and the intent ofthe average amateur ...)
Leo wrote:
On 29 Jan 2007 23:08:00 -0800, " wrote: From: Bob Brock on Mon, Jan 29 2007 11:10 pm On 29 Jan 2007 16:44:02 -0800, " wrote: On Jan 29, 3:32?pm, Dave Heil wrote: KH6HZ wrote: "Bob Brock" writes: In response to "Dee Flint" : snip Poor Heil doesn't realize he's been controlled every time he tries to control others! :-) Gotta love it...! :-) Right on. Jim and I had a long, long thread going quite some time ago on this very subject ("Owned or free...", IIRC) whereby I attempted to point this very fact out to him. And still, many months later, he continues to correct, proclaim and argue, often in multiple posts daily. Regardless of how quixiotic this pursuit is, the good fight must be fought! You're a selective reader, "Leo". Good old Mr. Wilson, er Len saw my post about Tandy/Radio Shack gobbling up Allied electronics and had to attempt to dazzle me with his expertise. A lengthy treatise including his having been around when Allied came into existence followed. Yessir, Len's a regular puppeteer. Dave K8MN |
Quantity Over Quality (Was: Unwritten policy and the intent ofthe average amateur ...)
Bob Brock wrote:
On 30 Jan 2007 02:14:40 -0800, wrote: On Jan 29, 1:02?pm, Bob Brock wrote: On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 12:52:16 -0500, "KH6HZ" wrote: "Bob Brock" writes: In response to "Dee Flint" : The economy of scale situation in ham radio today is mail order/ internet sales, plus hamfest/conventions. because they're the most competitive for most things. Some manufacturers sell don't sell through dealers at all - Ten Tec and Elecraft are two examples. Don't confuse lack of customers with economy of scale. Those little guys can't compete with the big boys any better than the local shops can compete with Wal-Mart. The little guys can and do compete. They do it by offering service that the big boys don't and by offering items that the big boys don't carry. What you mean is that they can't compete on price alone. Dave K8MN |
Quantity Over Quality (Was: Unwritten policy and the intent ofthe average amateur ...)
you'll find the sales people woefully short on product knowledge. That's been the case for as long as I can remember, since the 70's. The term "sales droid" was coined with Radio Shack in mind. the moment, RadShack is like a cellular phone store which pushes batteries. "Whatever you wanted, we have a cell phone for you!" When Radio Shack made a decision to push amateur radio gear ten or fifteen years back, it did so mostly with Radio Shack branded equipment which was short on features and rather shoddily made. It pushed a few 2m and 70cm FM HT's and mobile transceivers and a few niche market rigs like the low power 10m transceivers. The sales people were, again, woefully short on product knowledge. Their 2m hand held was actually decent. I have one. Not as rugged as an old Motorola HT220, though. User interface wasn't that great, but the Icom IC-02AT was worse. The radio Shack rig did had an excellent tight band receiver front end. Less intermod issues. |
Quantity Over Quality (Was: Unwritten policy and the intent of the average amateur ...)
"Dave Heil" wrote:
I disagree, Mike. Radio Shack had its roots in selling amateur equipment when it was a Boston firm decades back. [...] If Radio decided to sell a wide variety of amateur radio equipment of assorted brands and it gave adequate sales training to its staff, it'd be a big player. I honestly doubt it. Ham gear is such a niche market, it isn't cost effective for Radio Shack to offer it at the individual store level. The per-capita number of hams simply doesn't make it viable. There's little reason to carry a $1000+ product (say, a decent HF radio) when you *might* sell 1 a year, if you're lucky. Sure, in some markets, where there is a densely populated ham concentration, Radio Shack may do good. Or, perhaps offering products mail-order they might do okay. Would they be able to compete with Yaesu, Kenwood, et al with their own product line? Again, I doubt it. Will they be able to compete price-wise with the large mail-order discount places? Again, I seriously doubt it, due to the overhead requirements of each store. It is my honest opinion that ham gear at the retail level is all but extinct. 73 kh6hz |
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