"Bob Brock" writes:

In response to "Dee Flint" :

Right. Radio Shack pimps the hot products for the moment. The way I see
it, them not even carrying license manuals speaks volumes about demand for
them. Now, when you walk into a Radio Shack and see loads of HF antennas,
HF rigs, and a shelf of study guides; then you can say that Ham radio is
back in demand.

Radio Shack cannot compete with big discount houses like HRO.

Several years ago Radio Shack used to sell computers as well as stereos and
TVs. Now those product lines are all but missing from their stores. Why?
Lack of demand?

Not really. They simply cannot compete with Circuit City, Best Buy, etc. for
those products. First they don't have the floor space necessary in the
average Radio Shack to properly carry those goods, nor do they have the
economies of scale that those other mega-retailers have.


So, to bring this back on topic. I wonder if the intent of the
average ham is to make ham radio grow or to maintain a stale status quo?
The way I see it, a steady increase in qualified hams is a good thing.
Ham radio needs a good infusion of new blood and the no-code tech license
as a good start. However, it was only the beginning.

Then, Addressed to KH6HZ:
That says a lot about the growth of ham radio doesn't it?

This is the decades-old "quantity over quality" argument which has been the
crux of ham radio's incentive licensing program for the past several
decades.

Sustained growth in amateur radio is simply an unrealistic expectation.
Today, there are 650k licensed amateurs (and decreasing) with a rough
population of 300 million people.

Amateur radio cannot maintain a sustained growth in terms of raw numbers of
licensed amateurs. It simply will not happen. Even if you gave the licenses
away with no test -- walk into Radio Shack and buy a radio and start
transmitting right away -- it wouldn't happen. How many people use CB radios
today compared to, say, 20 years ago? How is the FRS doing these days in
terms of raw numbers?


Some people, I believe miguidedly so, keep focusing on the number of
licensed hams as an indicator of ham radio's health.

I believe this is an incorrect focus to take. Instead, I think people should
focus on quality over quantity. I ask myself this question:

Which would I rather have:

a) 10 guys and their wives who passed their license exams, never learned
anything else, bought some gear at HRO, and now park on a 2 meter repeater
and ragchew and make 'honey do' calls, or
b) 3 hams who took their license exams, continue to experiment with new
antennas, participate in MARS or ARES, and during emergencies help erect
antennas and provide emergency communications.

Personally, I'd rather have the 3 hams. The 10 guys and their wives are
certainly welcome, but if I had a choice, I'd take the 3 over the 10 any
day. The 3, in my opinion, help further the goals of Part 97.1 moreso than
the other 10.


Frankly, people need to stop focusing on raw numbers. 1 million licensed
hams is meaningless if they never turn on their radios and actually use the
frequencies they are allocated.


Anyway, like I said, raw numbers are impossible to sustain anyway. Ham radio
has a significant barriers to entry. It simply isn't going to have the "mass
appeal" to the population as a whole. It is a technical hobby. Life's
demands these days make it such that not many people are going to take up
ham radio.

Focusing on raw numbers is a losing proposition. Sure, you can continue to
fiddle with the licensing system, removing more and more "barriers to entry"
(aka: licensing requirements), but what is the end result? What do you do
when there ARE no more "barriers to entry" (aka: licensing requirements) and
'growth' is still negative?

The value of the ARS to the US isn't raw numbers -- it is having a trained
pool of radio operators. IMO, a trained pool of radio operators doesn't mean
you simply study, pass a test, and then you've gotten your "graduation
certificate". "Ok, I passed, don't have to study any longer". What is the
long-term value of that person, other than upping the body count, to the
ARS?


I believe (and I've stated this years ago) the focus needs to be
redirected... The ARS should strive for Quality over Quantity.

The doesn't mean make the tests "harder". No, they shouldn't require an BSEE
to pass.


Many moons ago, a few people in this forum equated morse code with a buggy
whip. Unfortunately, in today's world, it isn't morse code that is the
equivalent of a buggy whip, it is amateur radio as a whole.

73
kh6hz

On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 12:52:16 -0500, "KH6HZ" wrote:

"Bob Brock" writes:

In response to "Dee Flint" :

Right. Radio Shack pimps the hot products for the moment. The way I see
it, them not even carrying license manuals speaks volumes about demand for
them. Now, when you walk into a Radio Shack and see loads of HF antennas,
HF rigs, and a shelf of study guides; then you can say that Ham radio is
back in demand.

Radio Shack cannot compete with big discount houses like HRO.

You must be going to the wrong Radio Shacks. I saw stereos and TV's
all over the place when I went in. In theory, Radio Shack should be
in a much better position to sell ham equipment than HRO provided they
could sell it. If you don't believe in economy of scale, look at
Wal-Mart and get back with me.

"Bob Brock" wrote:

You must be going to the wrong Radio Shacks. I saw stereos and TV's
all over the place when I went in.

The last 4 Radio Shacks I've frequented had, perhaps 2-3k of floor space.
The last one I was in was appx. 20' wide and 150' in length. There's no way
such a store could carry a wide selection of TVs, stereos, computers, ham
gear, etc.


In theory, Radio Shack should be in a much better position to sell
ham equipment than HRO provided they could sell it. If you don't
believe in economy of scale, look at Wal-Mart and get back with me.

Radio Shack isn't Walmart.

Maybe if the typical Radio Shack had the floor space of a Walmart, you might
have a point.

They do not, nor will they ever.

73
kh6hz

On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 14:31:55 -0500, "KH6HZ" wrote:

"Bob Brock" wrote:

You must be going to the wrong Radio Shacks. I saw stereos and TV's
all over the place when I went in.

The last 4 Radio Shacks I've frequented had, perhaps 2-3k of floor space.
The last one I was in was appx. 20' wide and 150' in length. There's no way
such a store could carry a wide selection of TVs, stereos, computers, ham
gear, etc.


In theory, Radio Shack should be in a much better position to sell
ham equipment than HRO provided they could sell it. If you don't
believe in economy of scale, look at Wal-Mart and get back with me.

Radio Shack isn't Walmart.

Maybe if the typical Radio Shack had the floor space of a Walmart, you might
have a point.

Perhaps when HRO has the floor space of Radio Shack, you might have a
point.


They do not, nor will they ever.

That was my point. You just picked the wrong two companies to
compare.


73
kh6hz

"Bob Brock" wrote:

Perhaps when HRO has the floor space of Radio Shack, you might have
a point.

HRO doesn't compete against Radio Shack in the same market. Radio Shack is
consumer goods, HRO sells in a niche market. Radio Shack is retail, HRO is
mainly mail order.

On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 22:30:06 -0500, "KH6HZ" wrote:

"Bob Brock" wrote:

Perhaps when HRO has the floor space of Radio Shack, you might have
a point.

HRO doesn't compete against Radio Shack in the same market. Radio Shack is
consumer goods, HRO sells in a niche market. Radio Shack is retail, HRO is
mainly mail order.

And that was my point. If it reaches the stage where radio shack (or
Wal-Mart) has jumped on the band wagon, we may need to worry about
overpopulating the bands. As long as the only place to find equipment
is pretty much mail order to a "niche market," growth is good. BTW,
there was a time that Radio Shack targeted a "niche market." However,
those times are long past. IMO, their products were poorly made knock
offs of good equipment.

The other option is for the last ham to turn off the lights before he
dies out and the bands are sold to commercial interests.

"Bob Brock" wrote:

And that was my point. If it reaches the stage where radio shack
(or Wal-Mart) has jumped on the band wagon, we may need to worry
about overpopulating the bands.

I just simply do not see it happening. Most RatShacks are too small to carry
a wide range of ham gear. Furthermore, the per-capita number of hams in most
areas is too small.

Certain RatShacks may do ok selling ham gear, but as a whole? I doubt it.

Heck, how much demand is there for RatShack's selling of FRS and CB Gear?
Not very much, I believe, based on the very limited (if any) selection I've
seen in the 4 stores I've frequented over the past few years.

73
kh6hz

On Jan 29, 1:02�pm, Bob Brock wrote:
On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 12:52:16 -0500, "KH6HZ" wrote:
"Bob Brock" writes:

In response to "Dee Flint" :

Right. *Radio Shack pimps the hot products for the moment. The way I see
it, them not even carrying license manuals speaks volumes about demand for
them. *Now, when you walk into a Radio Shack and see loads of HF antennas,
HF rigs, and a shelf of study guides; then you can say that Ham radio is
back in demand.

Radio Shack cannot compete with big discount houses like HRO.

You must be going to the wrong Radio Shacks. *I saw stereos and TV's
all over the place when I went in.

But you didn't see computers, did you?

Once upon a time, RS was fairly big player in the consumer computer
market. But then they found it was too competitive a market, and they
could not compete with computer stores like CompUSA, MicroCenter,
etc. Now RS sells cables, adapters, disks, etc., but not computers.

*In theory, Radio Shack should be
in a much better position to sell ham equipment than HRO provided they
could sell it. *If you don't believe in economy of scale, look at
Wal-Mart and get back with me.

Right - and Wal-Mart doesn't sell ham gear.

The economy of scale situation in ham radio today is mail order/
internet sales, plus hamfest/conventions. because they're the most
competitive for most things. Some manufacturers sell don't sell
through dealers at all - Ten Tec and Elecraft are two examples.

In the bad old days, there were "radio parts stores" here in the
Philadelphia area. Plus we had mail order to Allied, Newark and
Lafayette. Today the parts stores are gone but the mail order is
bigger than ever: Allied and Newark are still around, plus Mouser and
Digi-Key.

btw, Digi-Key got its name because it started out as a tiny mailorder
business about 1968. They sold RTL logic chips to hams for Morse Code
keyers. QST, APril 1968. Then they added some popular transistors, and
sockets, and resistors....and the rest is history.

The radio parts stores existed, IMHO, because electronics weren't that
reliable back then - and they were expensive. TVs, radios, "hi-fis",
ham gear, etc., were usually fixed rather than discarded if they
stopped working, and those stores sold a steady stream of parts to
keep them working. There were also lots of hams and nonhams building
stuff from scratch to save money over buying, or to build things that
nobody manufactured.

All that has changed. Most consumer electronics is so reliable and
so inexpensive now that when it fails it is usually simply replaced.
Plus
the cost of labor often makes it uneconomical to fix a failed device.
In
fact, much of it is replaced *before* it fails. So the repair parts
business isn't what it was.

In most cases, you won't save money building electronic devices from
new parts *if* a similar item is manufactured by some company already,
because they get their parts in quantity and you don't. Any savings
come from using parts that are not bought new, and custom designs that
nobody manufactures.

The way to "sell" ham radio is simply to make it more visible to the
general public. The biggest barrier to that, IMHO, is anti-antenna
restrictions that are more common and more onerous every year.

How many of us first became aware of the existence of local amateurs
by seeing their antennas?

73 de Jim, N2EY

On 30 Jan 2007 02:14:40 -0800, wrote:



On Jan 29, 1:02?pm, Bob Brock wrote:
On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 12:52:16 -0500, "KH6HZ" wrote:
"Bob Brock" writes:

In response to "Dee Flint" :

Right. adio Shack pimps the hot products for the moment. The way I see
it, them not even carrying license manuals speaks volumes about demand for
them. ow, when you walk into a Radio Shack and see loads of HF antennas,
HF rigs, and a shelf of study guides; then you can say that Ham radio is
back in demand.

Radio Shack cannot compete with big discount houses like HRO.

You must be going to the wrong Radio Shacks. saw stereos and TV's
all over the place when I went in.

But you didn't see computers, did you?

Once upon a time, RS was fairly big player in the consumer computer
market. But then they found it was too competitive a market, and they
could not compete with computer stores like CompUSA, MicroCenter,
etc. Now RS sells cables, adapters, disks, etc., but not computers.

http://www.radioshack.com/family/ind...356&cp=2032061



n theory, Radio Shack should be
in a much better position to sell ham equipment than HRO provided they
could sell it. f you don't believe in economy of scale, look at
Wal-Mart and get back with me.

Right - and Wal-Mart doesn't sell ham gear.

The economy of scale situation in ham radio today is mail order/
internet sales, plus hamfest/conventions. because they're the most
competitive for most things. Some manufacturers sell don't sell
through dealers at all - Ten Tec and Elecraft are two examples.

Don't confuse lack of customers with economy of scale. Those little
guys can't compete with the big boys any better than the local shops
can compete with Wal-Mart.


In the bad old days, there were "radio parts stores" here in the
Philadelphia area. Plus we had mail order to Allied, Newark and
Lafayette. Today the parts stores are gone but the mail order is
bigger than ever: Allied and Newark are still around, plus Mouser and
Digi-Key.

btw, Digi-Key got its name because it started out as a tiny mailorder
business about 1968. They sold RTL logic chips to hams for Morse Code
keyers. QST, APril 1968. Then they added some popular transistors, and
sockets, and resistors....and the rest is history.

The radio parts stores existed, IMHO, because electronics weren't that
reliable back then - and they were expensive. TVs, radios, "hi-fis",
ham gear, etc., were usually fixed rather than discarded if they
stopped working, and those stores sold a steady stream of parts to
keep them working. There were also lots of hams and nonhams building
stuff from scratch to save money over buying, or to build things that
nobody manufactured.

All that has changed. Most consumer electronics is so reliable and
so inexpensive now that when it fails it is usually simply replaced.
Plus
the cost of labor often makes it uneconomical to fix a failed device.
In
fact, much of it is replaced *before* it fails. So the repair parts
business isn't what it was.

In most cases, you won't save money building electronic devices from
new parts *if* a similar item is manufactured by some company already,
because they get their parts in quantity and you don't. Any savings
come from using parts that are not bought new, and custom designs that
nobody manufactures.

I see that, in certain instances, you do understand economy of scale.
Why you reject other identical instances is a mystery to me.


The way to "sell" ham radio is simply to make it more visible to the
general public. The biggest barrier to that, IMHO, is anti-antenna
restrictions that are more common and more onerous every year.

How many of us first became aware of the existence of local amateurs
by seeing their antennas?

I wouldn't know since that doesn't apply to me. I became interested
in ham radio and SWL when I met the guy who came out to replace some
tubes in my Grandfather's TV. Back then most commercial radio was AM
and you could listen to stations from all over late at night on a
regular radio. The guy gave me a used short wave radio and I've been
hooked ever since.

That was a long time ago though and the new generations have different
motivators. I think that one of the biggest motivators is the stigma
of current CB operations and that a lot of people don't recognize the
difference between the two.

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 09:11:53 -0500, Bob Brock
wrote:


That was a long time ago though and the new generations have different
motivators. I think that one of the biggest motivators is the stigma
of current CB operations and that a lot of people don't recognize the
difference between the two.

Oops. I meant to type de motivators instead of "motivators."