On 29 Jan 2007 23:08:00 -0800, "
wrote:


From: Bob Brock on Mon, Jan 29 2007 11:10 pm

On 29 Jan 2007 16:44:02 -0800, " wrote:
On Jan 29, 3:32?pm, Dave Heil wrote:
KH6HZ wrote:
"Bob Brock" writes:

In response to "Dee Flint" :
snip

Poor Heil doesn't
realize he's been controlled every time he tries to
control others! :-) Gotta love it...! :-)

Right on. Jim and I had a long, long thread going quite some time ago
on this very subject ("Owned or free...", IIRC) whereby I attempted to
point this very fact out to him. And still, many months later, he
continues to correct, proclaim and argue, often in multiple posts
daily. Regardless of how quixiotic this pursuit is, the good fight
must be fought!

For some reason, these guys just don't get it. This personality type
seems to be compelled to respond to every 'poke and jab', quite
predictably, time after time. It is a classic response to stimulus,
right out of your old Psych 101 textbook......If there is, as the old
adage goes, "a sucker born every minute", they seem to have a long
lifespan.

It is a lot of fun to crank them up and watch them go, though - must
say, I've done it a time or two myself!

OK, OK, more than two....


Regards,


73, Leo

On Jan 29, 10:27 pm, "Dee Flint" wrote:
"Bob Brock" wrote in message

news:CFovh.2878$ch1.1742@bigfe9...

"KH6HZ" wrote in message
...
"Dee Flint" wrote:

Radio Shack has basically gotten out of amateur radio. I haven't
seen any study guides there for a couple of years.

Me either. Radio Shack is pretty much cheaply-made, overpriced consumer
electronics these days. I go in there sparingly, it seems every 6 months
their focus seems to change. I think the last radio shack I went into had
50-75% of the store's floor space devoted to various cell phone
accessories.

If any of them have ham radio manuals laying around, it is probably old
stock they haven't sold.

I believe for most people, the only viable option for buying a study
guide would be thru the ARRL or one of the other online sources, like
W5YI.

That says a lot about the growth of ham radio doesn't it?

Not really. It says more about the fact that stores across the board have
little interest in serving the niche markets. Once upon a time, Radio Shack
did cater to hams. At that time not only were the hams fewer in number than
today but they were also a smaller percentage of the population than now.
At the time, Radio Shack did serve the niche market of hams (among others).
But time has marched on and most businesses can't serve the niche markets
cost effectively.

Ham radio isn't the only area where one must resort to the Internet to find
the products they want.

Dee, N8UZE- Hide quoted text -

They have no problems serving niche markets (i.e., "press 1 for
English"). How many illegals do you think are interested in amateur
radio? Hola Hablo/Habla Porky Radio? ;^)

On 30 Jan 2007 02:14:40 -0800, wrote:



On Jan 29, 1:02?pm, Bob Brock wrote:
On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 12:52:16 -0500, "KH6HZ" wrote:
"Bob Brock" writes:

In response to "Dee Flint" :

Right. adio Shack pimps the hot products for the moment. The way I see
it, them not even carrying license manuals speaks volumes about demand for
them. ow, when you walk into a Radio Shack and see loads of HF antennas,
HF rigs, and a shelf of study guides; then you can say that Ham radio is
back in demand.

Radio Shack cannot compete with big discount houses like HRO.

You must be going to the wrong Radio Shacks. saw stereos and TV's
all over the place when I went in.

But you didn't see computers, did you?

Once upon a time, RS was fairly big player in the consumer computer
market. But then they found it was too competitive a market, and they
could not compete with computer stores like CompUSA, MicroCenter,
etc. Now RS sells cables, adapters, disks, etc., but not computers.

http://www.radioshack.com/family/ind...356&cp=2032061



n theory, Radio Shack should be
in a much better position to sell ham equipment than HRO provided they
could sell it. f you don't believe in economy of scale, look at
Wal-Mart and get back with me.

Right - and Wal-Mart doesn't sell ham gear.

The economy of scale situation in ham radio today is mail order/
internet sales, plus hamfest/conventions. because they're the most
competitive for most things. Some manufacturers sell don't sell
through dealers at all - Ten Tec and Elecraft are two examples.

Don't confuse lack of customers with economy of scale. Those little
guys can't compete with the big boys any better than the local shops
can compete with Wal-Mart.


In the bad old days, there were "radio parts stores" here in the
Philadelphia area. Plus we had mail order to Allied, Newark and
Lafayette. Today the parts stores are gone but the mail order is
bigger than ever: Allied and Newark are still around, plus Mouser and
Digi-Key.

btw, Digi-Key got its name because it started out as a tiny mailorder
business about 1968. They sold RTL logic chips to hams for Morse Code
keyers. QST, APril 1968. Then they added some popular transistors, and
sockets, and resistors....and the rest is history.

The radio parts stores existed, IMHO, because electronics weren't that
reliable back then - and they were expensive. TVs, radios, "hi-fis",
ham gear, etc., were usually fixed rather than discarded if they
stopped working, and those stores sold a steady stream of parts to
keep them working. There were also lots of hams and nonhams building
stuff from scratch to save money over buying, or to build things that
nobody manufactured.

All that has changed. Most consumer electronics is so reliable and
so inexpensive now that when it fails it is usually simply replaced.
Plus
the cost of labor often makes it uneconomical to fix a failed device.
In
fact, much of it is replaced *before* it fails. So the repair parts
business isn't what it was.

In most cases, you won't save money building electronic devices from
new parts *if* a similar item is manufactured by some company already,
because they get their parts in quantity and you don't. Any savings
come from using parts that are not bought new, and custom designs that
nobody manufactures.

I see that, in certain instances, you do understand economy of scale.
Why you reject other identical instances is a mystery to me.


The way to "sell" ham radio is simply to make it more visible to the
general public. The biggest barrier to that, IMHO, is anti-antenna
restrictions that are more common and more onerous every year.

How many of us first became aware of the existence of local amateurs
by seeing their antennas?

I wouldn't know since that doesn't apply to me. I became interested
in ham radio and SWL when I met the guy who came out to replace some
tubes in my Grandfather's TV. Back then most commercial radio was AM
and you could listen to stations from all over late at night on a
regular radio. The guy gave me a used short wave radio and I've been
hooked ever since.

That was a long time ago though and the new generations have different
motivators. I think that one of the biggest motivators is the stigma
of current CB operations and that a lot of people don't recognize the
difference between the two.

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 09:11:53 -0500, Bob Brock
wrote:


That was a long time ago though and the new generations have different
motivators. I think that one of the biggest motivators is the stigma
of current CB operations and that a lot of people don't recognize the
difference between the two.

Oops. I meant to type de motivators instead of "motivators."

wrote:
From: Bob Brock on Mon, Jan 29 2007 11:10 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_Radio

Bob, thanks for the "Wiki-up" on Allied, including Allied Radio.

If you haven't been here for years, you might not understand
how Heil's "game" is played. :-) Let me explain:

There was no game, Leonard. I supplied you factual information.
Your response was something about Allied lying.

A long time ago, in a State department far away, Heil got
totally ****ed with me in here for not going overboard
with gratuitous praise and congratulations on his mighty
efforts at hamming embassies in the middle of Africa.

[deliberate factual errors]


Especially Guinea-Bisseau.

"Guinea-Bissau", Len, but not especially.

Since then he's seen fit to
"correct" me as much as possible. Gotta love it when he
tries SO hard! :-)

....and succeeds so often. :-)

[he *IS* a code-tested extra and thus very "superior"]

In amateur radio, Len, every licensed op is superior to you. You aren't
involved.

I am not interested in ALLIED (Radio or by the single name)
corporate history. I'm only interested in the parts they
sell, the price for those parts, and whether or not they
have them in stock.

You seemed extremely interested just a post or two back. You were, you
stated, around for the company's birth.

So much the better if the signs point
to them staying in business over a year from now. If not,
I look for another distributor that sells in small to large
quantities (there are many of them in the USA and Canada).
No sweat there.

No one indicated that you should sweat, Len. I happened to be commenting
on Radio Shack and Tandy's acquisition and takeover of the Allied in
1970. You felt the need to come in with keyboard blazing.

I am well acquainted with "Allied Radio" and actually was
in there store in the second week of February, 1956, my
Dad with me (I had gone along with his meeting of some
model industry supers, then to Fort Sheridan to see if
my footlocker had arrived yet...it hadn't). Large store
interior but almost entirely displays of parts and some
instruments, which made me a bit disappointed in a way.
Expected more. I had ordered "radio parts" from them
in 1948 and then in 1954 while in the Army in Japan, had
always seen their ads in publications of that time. [I
built a thermin for a buddy in '54, he being a music
instructor in civilian life] Allied Radio catalogs were
very thin in those days, perhaps the thickest I remember
is around 3/8 inch. Yes, they has "radio parts" but
their market was mainly industry and the electronic
hobbies went beyond radio then. Chicago was "far away"
at 90 miles before I entered the Army. :-)

That's a nice story, Len. Almost all electronic distributors of that
day also sold amateur radio equipment and, in that time, almost no one
discounted any of it.

ALLIED's 2007 catalog is BIG at over 2000 pages. I'm not
going to look at "all" of them to see if "Tandy" is
mentioned despite Heil's insistence that 20-year-old
corporate history is SOOOOO important! :-)

You didn't need to look. I provided you with a quote from the company's
history and Bob provided you with a Wikipedia link and post info from
that site. I never stressed any importance of the company history. You
didn't like it that you were wrong. Deal with it. You're often wrong.

ALLIED is
very much IN BUSINESS and looks to stay that way for a
long time. By e-mail or by voice telephone the staff is
nice and obliging, on-the-job...no detectable Indian
accents. :-) I've gotten a few samples from Chicago
electronic companies shipped from ALLIED stock, believe
it or not. Good service.

I'm very happy for you, Len.


A great problem with some olde-tyme hammes is that NONE
of the biggie electronics parts distributors stock much
HF "radio" parts that they expect. The parts market just
isn't there any more. Real radio parts are involved at
frequencies higher than HF. Those are in abundance.
Anyone who wants old-style HF "radio" parts has to go
to smaller mail outlets such as Ocean State Electronics.
But, they will be shocked by the high prices charged,
not at all as low as when they were adolescents.

One can go to a tiny place like RF Parts Company and find lots of HF
radio parts, even high power components and transmitting tubes of all
varieties for amplifiers.

The same with "plate and filament" transformers. About
the only outlet in North America for stock parts is a
Hammond division up in Canada (distributed by Mouser
down here).

Hammond is distributed by many distributors.

Fine products I hear, but the cost is high.

Hammond makes very high quality products and the cost is not high at
all. The company also produces a quality line of die cast boxes of
almost any size.

Electronics parts are, and have been for decades,
oriented to lower-voltage semiconductor technology.

That's true to an extent. There is still a sizable market for high
power RF components in commercial radio, industry and amateur radio.

What was once a provence of ham radio builders is now
much much larger in favor of computer-digital
components.

"Province", Len. There are still numerous manufacturers of radio
equipment which require radio components.

Vacuum tubes (from new, old stock), if you
can get them, now cost five times what they did in 1960
and go up from there.

There are still numerous vacuum tubes produced by Russian, Chinese and
U.S. makers. I'm glad that they only cost five times what they did in
1960. Many things I buy today cost ten or more times what I would have
paid in 1960. Have you bought a pack of chewing gum or a rib-eye steak
lately?

The old days are GONE. They
won't come back as they once were.

That's right, Len. There's no long a Johnson Messenger vacuum tube CB
radio being made.

Now, as to Heil, he doesn't know his chain gets yanked
and his buttons pushed by me. :-)

Oh, you're a regular puppet master, Len. You're the great and powerful
Wizard of Odds.

That's part of my
game whenever he puts on the Waffen SS persona and tells
me "you never did such a thing!" or puts on the little
red hat while dancing to organ-grinder Miccolis' tune on
"corrections."

I have to ask Len: How did you come up with the fiendishly clever part
of your scheme in which you end up looking so foolish?

It is both funny and tragic that they
carry on like they do, but that's their way in here.

Actually, Len, you have it slightly wrong. You carry on like you do and
wonder why folks don't take to your nonsense.

Shrug...I've seen worse on BBSs after first doing
computer-modem comms 22 years ago. Usually I just shine
them off but the chain-yanking and button-pushing urge
gets irresistable and off we go. Poor Heil doesn't
realize he's been controlled every time he tries to
control others! :-) Gotta love it...! :-)

I musta been hIp-No-tiZeD! The funny part is where you put both of your
brogans into your yap in your sidewalk superintendent persona. I found
a Shinola ad in an old magazine the other day, Len. I think I'll scan
it and provide a link to the ad. It'll be a reminder of one of the
things you don't know.

Regards,

See IEEE Code of Ethics

Dave K8MN

wrote:

But you didn't see computers, did you?

Once upon a time, RS was fairly big player in the consumer computer
market. But then they found it was too competitive a market, and they
could not compete with computer stores like CompUSA, MicroCenter,
etc. Now RS sells cables, adapters, disks, etc., but not computers.

RadShack stuff is simply way overpriced. I can buy cables and adapters
for much cheaper at Staples or Circuit City. I happened to stop at one
of our area Radio Shack stores two days ago to grab some chassis mount
female F connectors for a receiving antenna transformer housing I'm
building. I could have bought five or six of the things at even Lowe's
for the same price that RadShack sells two units. I notice a 20 pack of
DVD's for $7.99 Staples has a 25 pack for $3.99.


The economy of scale situation in ham radio today is mail order/
internet sales, plus hamfest/conventions. because they're the most
competitive for most things. Some manufacturers sell don't sell
through dealers at all - Ten Tec and Elecraft are two examples.

Exactly. I think Elecraft has always done so. Ten-Tec made the move a
decade or so back and it hasn't hurt the company a bit.

In the bad old days, there were "radio parts stores" here in the
Philadelphia area. Plus we had mail order to Allied, Newark and
Lafayette. Today the parts stores are gone but the mail order is
bigger than ever: Allied and Newark are still around, plus Mouser and
Digi-Key.

Cincy used to have Allied, Lafayette and Olson stores along with area
distributors. Ham gear was sold at an appliance store, Steinberg's
until the end of 1968. The city also had Coston's, a dealer in amateur
radio gear. Queen City Electronics sold ham gear exclusively until
upstart R&L, a discounter in Hamilton became so lare that it put Queen
City under.

btw, Digi-Key got its name because it started out as a tiny mailorder
business about 1968. They sold RTL logic chips to hams for Morse Code
keyers. QST, APril 1968. Then they added some popular transistors, and
sockets, and resistors....and the rest is history.

The company has never forgotten its roots either. There are no minimum
quantities and no minimum order.

The way to "sell" ham radio is simply to make it more visible to the
general public. The biggest barrier to that, IMHO, is anti-antenna
restrictions that are more common and more onerous every year.

You're right about the selling. In these parts, the antenna
restrictions are few and far between. When N8NN and I have done our
two-man FD efforts, we always manage to get a blurb about our operation
and Field Day in the local paper. We stress that the public is invited.
Our county ARES group does the same and holds its FD at a county park.

How many of us first became aware of the existence of local amateurs
by seeing their antennas?

I suppose that happens often. I actually heard a local ham on the air
before I noticed an antenna.

Dave K8MN

Leo wrote:
On 29 Jan 2007 23:08:00 -0800, "
wrote:

From: Bob Brock on Mon, Jan 29 2007 11:10 pm

On 29 Jan 2007 16:44:02 -0800, " wrote:
On Jan 29, 3:32?pm, Dave Heil wrote:
KH6HZ wrote:
"Bob Brock" writes:
In response to "Dee Flint" :
snip

Poor Heil doesn't
realize he's been controlled every time he tries to
control others! :-) Gotta love it...! :-)

Right on. Jim and I had a long, long thread going quite some time ago
on this very subject ("Owned or free...", IIRC) whereby I attempted to
point this very fact out to him. And still, many months later, he
continues to correct, proclaim and argue, often in multiple posts
daily. Regardless of how quixiotic this pursuit is, the good fight
must be fought!

You're a selective reader, "Leo". Good old Mr. Wilson, er Len saw my
post about Tandy/Radio Shack gobbling up Allied electronics and had to
attempt to dazzle me with his expertise. A lengthy treatise including
his having been around when Allied came into existence followed.

Yessir, Len's a regular puppeteer.

Dave K8MN

Bob Brock wrote:
On 30 Jan 2007 02:14:40 -0800, wrote:


On Jan 29, 1:02?pm, Bob Brock wrote:
On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 12:52:16 -0500, "KH6HZ" wrote:
"Bob Brock" writes:
In response to "Dee Flint" :

The economy of scale situation in ham radio today is mail order/
internet sales, plus hamfest/conventions. because they're the most
competitive for most things. Some manufacturers sell don't sell
through dealers at all - Ten Tec and Elecraft are two examples.

Don't confuse lack of customers with economy of scale. Those little
guys can't compete with the big boys any better than the local shops
can compete with Wal-Mart.

The little guys can and do compete. They do it by offering service that
the big boys don't and by offering items that the big boys don't carry.
What you mean is that they can't compete on price alone.

Dave K8MN

you'll find the sales people woefully short on product knowledge.

That's been the case for as long as I can remember, since the 70's. The
term "sales droid" was coined with Radio Shack in mind.

the moment, RadShack is like a cellular phone store which pushes batteries.

"Whatever you wanted, we have a cell phone for you!"

When Radio Shack made a decision to push amateur radio gear ten or
fifteen years back, it did so mostly with Radio Shack branded equipment
which was short on features and rather shoddily made. It pushed a few
2m and 70cm FM HT's and mobile transceivers and a few niche market rigs
like the low power 10m transceivers. The sales people were, again,
woefully short on product knowledge.


Their 2m hand held was actually decent. I have one. Not as rugged as
an old Motorola HT220, though. User interface wasn't that great, but
the Icom IC-02AT was worse. The radio Shack rig did had an excellent
tight band receiver front end. Less intermod issues.

"Dave Heil" wrote:

I disagree, Mike. Radio Shack had its roots in selling amateur equipment
when it was a Boston firm decades back.
[...]
If Radio decided to sell a wide variety of amateur radio equipment of
assorted brands and it gave adequate sales training to
its staff, it'd be a big player.

I honestly doubt it.

Ham gear is such a niche market, it isn't cost effective for Radio Shack to
offer it at the individual store level. The per-capita number of hams simply
doesn't make it viable. There's little reason to carry a $1000+ product
(say, a decent HF radio) when you *might* sell 1 a year, if you're lucky.

Sure, in some markets, where there is a densely populated ham concentration,
Radio Shack may do good. Or, perhaps offering products mail-order they might
do okay.

Would they be able to compete with Yaesu, Kenwood, et al with their own
product line? Again, I doubt it. Will they be able to compete price-wise
with the large mail-order discount places? Again, I seriously doubt it, due
to the overhead requirements of each store.


It is my honest opinion that ham gear at the retail level is all but
extinct.

73
kh6hz