wrote in message
ups.com...
On Mar 4, 9:10 am, "Dee Flint" wrote:
"KH6HZ" wrote in message

...

There will ultimately be two classes of ham radio license.

Tech, and Extra.

Or Class A and Class B. A VHF+ entry-level license, and a license with
all
privileges.

Just as I suggested in my Y2K NPRM restructuring comments, I might add.

I disagree. My bet is that we'll indeed have a de facto two level
license
system but I think they will be General and Extra.

I've been on record for a long, long time advocating a one license
"system." However, I've compromised with Hans suggestion of a simple
entry level license, and a full license. Whover said we needed more
license classes ought to have his head examined.


Well it's hard to say what the right number of classes is. I would advocate
two licenses: a 50 question General exam and a 50 question Extra exam. The
material in the Tech & General tests has enough overlap and is basic enough
that it would not be a big hardship on applicants to master the combined
material. Going straight from a Tech or other entry level test to Extra is
a huge jump in both quantity and complexity of the material. It would
certainly discourage a lot of people and might increase the drop out rate.

Already our club is planning for future licensing classes to combine these
two. Of course, we'll have to create our own syllabus and figure out how
best to present the combined material. At this point in time, there are no
combined manuals that already address the material for both license classes.
In principle it would be similar to the Now You're Talking book that was
available prior to the 2000 changes, which combined the Novice and
Technician material in one integrated study guide such that a person could
study for both Novice and Tech writtens at the same time. Our goal will be
to not only help them get licensed, but to try for General right out of the
box.

As I see it, there simply is no longer a need for an "entry level" license.

Dee, N8UZE

On Mar 4, 10:25 am, "Dee Flint" wrote:
wrote in message

ups.com...





On Mar 4, 9:10 am, "Dee Flint" wrote:
"KH6HZ" wrote in message

...

There will ultimately be two classes of ham radio license.

Tech, and Extra.

Or Class A and Class B. A VHF+ entry-level license, and a license with
all
privileges.

Just as I suggested in my Y2K NPRM restructuring comments, I might add.

I disagree. My bet is that we'll indeed have a de facto two level
license
system but I think they will be General and Extra.

I've been on record for a long, long time advocating a one license
"system." However, I've compromised with Hans suggestion of a simple
entry level license, and a full license. Whover said we needed more
license classes ought to have his head examined.

Well it's hard to say what the right number of classes is. I would advocate
two licenses: a 50 question General exam and a 50 question Extra exam. The
material in the Tech & General tests has enough overlap and is basic enough
that it would not be a big hardship on applicants to master the combined
material. Going straight from a Tech or other entry level test to Extra is
a huge jump in both quantity and complexity of the material. It would
certainly discourage a lot of people and might increase the drop out rate.

I disagree. The "top" license, Amateur, should be the current General
exam, and the entry level license, Limited Amateur, should be
something much less.

Already our club is planning for future licensing classes to combine these
two. Of course, we'll have to create our own syllabus and figure out how
best to present the combined material. At this point in time, there are no
combined manuals that already address the material for both license classes.
In principle it would be similar to the Now You're Talking book that was
available prior to the 2000 changes, which combined the Novice and
Technician material in one integrated study guide such that a person could
study for both Novice and Tech writtens at the same time. Our goal will be
to not only help them get licensed, but to try for General right out of the
box.

As I see it, there simply is no longer a need for an "entry level" license.

Why not?

As I suspected, and Len asserted, "It's all about Morse Code" with
some of you's guys.

wrote in message
oups.com...
On Mar 4, 10:25 am, "Dee Flint" wrote:
wrote in message

ups.com...





On Mar 4, 9:10 am, "Dee Flint" wrote:
"KH6HZ" wrote in message

...

There will ultimately be two classes of ham radio license.

Tech, and Extra.

Or Class A and Class B. A VHF+ entry-level license, and a license
with
all
privileges.

Just as I suggested in my Y2K NPRM restructuring comments, I might
add.

I disagree. My bet is that we'll indeed have a de facto two level
license
system but I think they will be General and Extra.

I've been on record for a long, long time advocating a one license
"system." However, I've compromised with Hans suggestion of a simple
entry level license, and a full license. Whover said we needed more
license classes ought to have his head examined.

Well it's hard to say what the right number of classes is. I would
advocate
two licenses: a 50 question General exam and a 50 question Extra exam.
The
material in the Tech & General tests has enough overlap and is basic
enough
that it would not be a big hardship on applicants to master the combined
material. Going straight from a Tech or other entry level test to Extra
is
a huge jump in both quantity and complexity of the material. It would
certainly discourage a lot of people and might increase the drop out
rate.

I disagree. The "top" license, Amateur, should be the current General
exam, and the entry level license, Limited Amateur, should be
something much less.

Already our club is planning for future licensing classes to combine
these
two. Of course, we'll have to create our own syllabus and figure out how
best to present the combined material. At this point in time, there are
no
combined manuals that already address the material for both license
classes.
In principle it would be similar to the Now You're Talking book that was
available prior to the 2000 changes, which combined the Novice and
Technician material in one integrated study guide such that a person
could
study for both Novice and Tech writtens at the same time. Our goal will
be
to not only help them get licensed, but to try for General right out of
the
box.

As I see it, there simply is no longer a need for an "entry level"
license.

Why not?

As I suspected, and Len asserted, "It's all about Morse Code" with
some of you's guys.


Not at all. There is such a wide range of enjoyable activities available
that I want people to be able to explore them. For the same reason
(expanding one's range of activities and knowledge base), I've dragged Extra
class licensees over to the VHF station at Field day to show them what can
be achieved on those frequencies. While there are many Extras familiar with
the VHF/UHF possibilities, for some reason the Extras in the club I belong
to it have not really explored them.

With the dropping of the code test requirement, the difference between the
Tech license material and the General license material is just not that
great. In the exam sessions, we actively encourage a person to try the
General when they pass the Tech exam. Those applicants that have chosen to
develop an understanding of the Tech material (i.e. learn the antenna
equation and how to use it rather than memorizing the lengths for the
questions that might occur on the test) usually come within a couple of
points of passing the General. Some would have passed the General if they
had simply known to also memorize the General frequency priviliges along
with the material they already knew.

The material on the Tech and General is straight forward enough that it can
be grasped by just about anyone with a moderate amount of study. If one
looks at it in terms of return (license & range of privileges) versus
investment (study), the General is perfectly reasonable as a first license
step.

On the other hand, let's look at an "entry level" license and exam. You
have got to cover rules, safety (including RF radiation safety), and good
operating practices as a bare minimum. By the time you do this, you've
already got a significant portion of what you would need for a General class
license. Your return (license & privileges) versus investment (study) for
an entry level license, is just not that worthwhile.

Those countries that have folded their two license classes into one class
often had a written test that was equivalent to our Extra not our General
for both and the only differentiating item was the code test. Thus they
really had no "entry" license. They had VHF/UHF licenses and full licenses.
The US has been somewhat unusual in that there is a license (General) that
has a significant range of privileges on all bands with a moderate level
level of testing.

Dee, N8UZE

On Mar 4, 11:38 am, "Dee Flint" wrote:
wrote in message

oups.com...





On Mar 4, 10:25 am, "Dee Flint" wrote:
wrote in message

roups.com...

On Mar 4, 9:10 am, "Dee Flint" wrote:
"KH6HZ" wrote in message

...

There will ultimately be two classes of ham radio license.

Tech, and Extra.

Or Class A and Class B. A VHF+ entry-level license, and a license
with
all
privileges.

Just as I suggested in my Y2K NPRM restructuring comments, I might
add.

I disagree. My bet is that we'll indeed have a de facto two level
license
system but I think they will be General and Extra.

I've been on record for a long, long time advocating a one license
"system." However, I've compromised with Hans suggestion of a simple
entry level license, and a full license. Whover said we needed more
license classes ought to have his head examined.

Well it's hard to say what the right number of classes is. I would
advocate
two licenses: a 50 question General exam and a 50 question Extra exam.
The
material in the Tech & General tests has enough overlap and is basic
enough
that it would not be a big hardship on applicants to master the combined
material. Going straight from a Tech or other entry level test to Extra
is
a huge jump in both quantity and complexity of the material. It would
certainly discourage a lot of people and might increase the drop out
rate.

I disagree. The "top" license, Amateur, should be the current General
exam, and the entry level license, Limited Amateur, should be
something much less.

Already our club is planning for future licensing classes to combine
these
two. Of course, we'll have to create our own syllabus and figure out how
best to present the combined material. At this point in time, there are
no
combined manuals that already address the material for both license
classes.
In principle it would be similar to the Now You're Talking book that was
available prior to the 2000 changes, which combined the Novice and
Technician material in one integrated study guide such that a person
could
study for both Novice and Tech writtens at the same time. Our goal will
be
to not only help them get licensed, but to try for General right out of
the
box.

As I see it, there simply is no longer a need for an "entry level"
license.

Why not?

As I suspected, and Len asserted, "It's all about Morse Code" with
some of you's guys.

Not at all. There is such a wide range of enjoyable activities available
that I want people to be able to explore them. For the same reason
(expanding one's range of activities and knowledge base), I've dragged Extra
class licensees over to the VHF station at Field day to show them what can
be achieved on those frequencies. While there are many Extras familiar with
the VHF/UHF possibilities, for some reason the Extras in the club I belong
to it have not really explored them.

I was referrign to Code Testing.

With the dropping of the code test requirement, the difference between the
Tech license material and the General license material is just not that
great.

I want you to always remember that you said that. Always.

First, if there is so little difference between the Technician Exam
and the General Exam (sans Morse Code), then you make my point that
the Technician exam is just too advanced for an entry level exam. It
must be simplified.

Second, it was the General Exam that once conveyed ALL AMATEUR
PRIVELEGES. Now you are saying that it is the defacto starting point
because there is no Morse Exam to accompany it? That just smacks of
Code Tested Extra elitism.

Third, the Advanced and Extra Exams have been combined, thereby
dumbing down the Extra, bringing it closer to the present General
Exam, not pushing it toward an MSEE like some of you would like to
think. So if there is so little difference between the Technician and
General Exams, and the Extra has been dumbed down to Advanced level,
why do we still have people wanting more superfluous license classes
that are growing closer together in difficulty allatime?

And in the end, it's still allabout Morse Code with you.

In the exam sessions, we actively encourage a person to try the
General when they pass the Tech exam. Those applicants that have chosen to
develop an understanding of the Tech material (i.e. learn the antenna
equation and how to use it rather than memorizing the lengths for the
questions that might occur on the test) usually come within a couple of
points of passing the General. Some would have passed the General if they
had simply known to also memorize the General frequency priviliges along
with the material they already knew.

Did you say memorize? Wouldn't you rather they understood the
frequency privileges?

The material on the Tech and General is straight forward enough that it can
be grasped by just about anyone with a moderate amount of study. If one
looks at it in terms of return (license & range of privileges) versus
investment (study), the General is perfectly reasonable as a first license
step.

All government testing should be straight forward.

On the other hand, let's look at an "entry level" license and exam. You
have got to cover rules, safety (including RF radiation safety), and good
operating practices as a bare minimum. By the time you do this, you've
already got a significant portion of what you would need for a General class
license. Your return (license & privileges) versus investment (study) for
an entry level license, is just not that worthwhile.

If you remove the RF Safety, and change the power levels below that
required for an RFEA, then you have the makings of a simplified
amateur class.

Those countries that have folded their two license classes into one class
often had a written test that was equivalent to our Extra not our General
for both and the only differentiating item was the code test. Thus they
really had no "entry" license.

I wasn't allowed to talk about Japan. You shouldn't be allowed to
talk about anonymous countries.

They had VHF/UHF licenses and full licenses.
The US has been somewhat unusual in that there is a license (General) that
has a significant range of privileges on all bands with a moderate level
level of testing.

Dee, N8UZE-

The General once conveyed ALL AMATEUR PRIVILEGES.

Sheesh!

wrote in message
oups.com...
On Mar 4, 11:38 am, "Dee Flint" wrote:
wrote in message

oups.com...





On Mar 4, 10:25 am, "Dee Flint" wrote:
wrote in message

roups.com...

On Mar 4, 9:10 am, "Dee Flint" wrote:
"KH6HZ" wrote in message

...


[snip]

As I see it, there simply is no longer a need for an "entry level"
license.

Why not?

As I suspected, and Len asserted, "It's all about Morse Code" with
some of you's guys.

Not at all. There is such a wide range of enjoyable activities available
that I want people to be able to explore them. For the same reason
(expanding one's range of activities and knowledge base), I've dragged
Extra
class licensees over to the VHF station at Field day to show them what
can
be achieved on those frequencies. While there are many Extras familiar
with
the VHF/UHF possibilities, for some reason the Extras in the club I
belong
to it have not really explored them.

I was referrign to Code Testing.


Not relevant to anything I have said in this thread. It is not about code
testing but about each of us "being all that we can be".

With the dropping of the code test requirement, the difference between
the
Tech license material and the General license material is just not that
great.

I want you to always remember that you said that. Always.



No problem as I have been maintaining for quite some time that there is
noticeable overlap in the material. In addition, for that reason, I have
always encouraged applicants to take a shot at the General written if they
do well on the Technician.

First, if there is so little difference between the Technician Exam
and the General Exam (sans Morse Code), then you make my point that
the Technician exam is just too advanced for an entry level exam. It
must be simplified.


No it does not. I've taught the classes to people with wide ranges of
backgrounds. The majority of the overlap is in rules, regs, and safety.
They have to know this no matter how much you "simplify" an entry level
license. You can actually miss all the math questions and still pass the
Tech test. Therefore the Tech can't get a whole lot simpler.

Second, it was the General Exam that once conveyed ALL AMATEUR
PRIVELEGES. Now you are saying that it is the defacto starting point
because there is no Morse Exam to accompany it? That just smacks of
Code Tested Extra elitism.


No, I'm saying that once people get their license, most will choose not to
stay long at the Technician level. Also keep in mind that the General test
of the past was much harder than today's General as they took a lot of that
material and moved it to the new license classes.

Third, the Advanced and Extra Exams have been combined, thereby
dumbing down the Extra, bringing it closer to the present General
Exam,

Not hardly. I've taught the classes for today's Extra exam. The VEC
Question Pool Committee combined the material from the old Advanced and
Extra and created a monstor question pool covering all those topics. The
only "break" is that you end up taking one written test of 50 questions
instead of two tests of 40 and 50 questions for a total of 90 questions.
Today's Extra exam has an 800+ question pool to select from for that 50
question test.

not pushing it toward an MSEE like some of you would like to
think.

I've never made that assertion nor implied it. That MSEE has to learn a
whole lot more than was ever covered in the Amateur radio exams.


So if there is so little difference between the Technician and
General Exams, and the Extra has been dumbed down to Advanced level,
why do we still have people wanting more superfluous license classes
that are growing closer together in difficulty allatime?

I did not say there is so little difference between the Tech and General.
Merely that it is reasonable for a person to study to go to General either
right at the beginning or shortly thereafter.

Nor has the Extra been dumbed down to the Advanced class. If you were to
talk to any of the people who earned their Extra under the pre-2000 system,
they will tell you that the Advanced class written test was the hardest of
all the writtens. That is where the bulk of the difficult technical
material was. The Extra class test addressed more detailed knowledge of the
rules, regs, what it takes to be a VE, and a small amount of technical
material. When the system was changed, all the material for both the
Advanced and Extra went into the new Extra question pool


And in the end, it's still allabout Morse Code with you.


That conclusion is not based on any of the opinions I have expressed in this
thread or any other.

In the exam sessions, we actively encourage a person to try the
General when they pass the Tech exam. Those applicants that have chosen
to
develop an understanding of the Tech material (i.e. learn the antenna
equation and how to use it rather than memorizing the lengths for the
questions that might occur on the test) usually come within a couple of
points of passing the General. Some would have passed the General if
they
had simply known to also memorize the General frequency priviliges along
with the material they already knew.

Did you say memorize? Wouldn't you rather they understood the
frequency privileges?


I don't bother getting involved with that discussion as most just try to
twist it to suit their own purposes. There is some material that must be
memorized just as frequencies and equations. Other things must be
understood as to when and how to use those equations.

The material on the Tech and General is straight forward enough that it
can
be grasped by just about anyone with a moderate amount of study. If one
looks at it in terms of return (license & range of privileges) versus
investment (study), the General is perfectly reasonable as a first
license
step.

All government testing should be straight forward.


All of the testing is straight forward. The Extra is merely difficult not
convoluted.

On the other hand, let's look at an "entry level" license and exam. You
have got to cover rules, safety (including RF radiation safety), and good
operating practices as a bare minimum. By the time you do this, you've
already got a significant portion of what you would need for a General
class
license. Your return (license & privileges) versus investment (study)
for
an entry level license, is just not that worthwhile.

If you remove the RF Safety, and change the power levels below that
required for an RFEA, then you have the makings of a simplified
amateur class.


Why should anybody even bother with such a limited license? It would be so
limited people would get bored and drop out or immediately upgrade. Not
worth the investment of time.

Those countries that have folded their two license classes into one class
often had a written test that was equivalent to our Extra not our General
for both and the only differentiating item was the code test. Thus they
really had no "entry" license.

I wasn't allowed to talk about Japan. You shouldn't be allowed to
talk about anonymous countries.


Never said one wasn't allowed to talk about Japan. Merely pointed out the
invalidity of trying to compare the systems.

They had VHF/UHF licenses and full licenses.
The US has been somewhat unusual in that there is a license (General)
that
has a significant range of privileges on all bands with a moderate level
level of testing.

Dee, N8UZE-

The General once conveyed ALL AMATEUR PRIVILEGES.

Sheesh!


And the General test covered the appropriate material at that time.
Although the "incentive licensing" had major implementation issues, it did
have the benefit of bringing people into the hobby since they could take the
material in smaller bites instead of having to learn everything all at the
same time. It achieved that goal.

So Sheesh! yourself. You are trying to compare the system of several
decades ago with newer systems.

Dee, N8UZE

Dee Flint wrote:

...
Not relevant to anything I have said in this thread. It is not about code
testing but about each of us "being all that we can be".
...

Now you got it!

Some of us were meant to empty garbage, dig ditch, take shorthand, type
up reports, pound a brass key, etc, etc.

And then, others were meant for more ... science, math, complex
computations, computer programming, etc ...

JS
--
http://assemblywizard.tekcities.com

On Mar 4, 6:56 pm, "Dee Flint" wrote:
wrote in message

oups.com...





On Mar 4, 11:38 am, "Dee Flint" wrote:
wrote in message

groups.com...

On Mar 4, 10:25 am, "Dee Flint" wrote:
wrote in message

roups.com...

On Mar 4, 9:10 am, "Dee Flint" wrote:
"KH6HZ" wrote in message

...

[snip]





As I see it, there simply is no longer a need for an "entry level"
license.

Why not?

As I suspected, and Len asserted, "It's all about Morse Code" with
some of you's guys.

Not at all. There is such a wide range of enjoyable activities available
that I want people to be able to explore them. For the same reason
(expanding one's range of activities and knowledge base), I've dragged
Extra
class licensees over to the VHF station at Field day to show them what
can
be achieved on those frequencies. While there are many Extras familiar
with
the VHF/UHF possibilities, for some reason the Extras in the club I
belong
to it have not really explored them.

I was referrign to Code Testing.

Not relevant to anything I have said in this thread. It is not about code
testing but about each of us "being all that we can be".

....an army of one. Try to keep up with the changes.

With the dropping of the code test requirement, the difference between
the
Tech license material and the General license material is just not that
great.

I want you to always remember that you said that. Always.

No problem as I have been maintaining for quite some time that there is
noticeable overlap in the material. In addition, for that reason, I have
always encouraged applicants to take a shot at the General written if they
do well on the Technician.

First, if there is so little difference between the Technician Exam
and the General Exam (sans Morse Code), then you make my point that
the Technician exam is just too advanced for an entry level exam. It
must be simplified.

No it does not. I've taught the classes to people with wide ranges of
backgrounds. The majority of the overlap is in rules, regs, and safety.
They have to know this no matter how much you "simplify" an entry level
license. You can actually miss all the math questions and still pass the
Tech test. Therefore the Tech can't get a whole lot simpler.

Second, it was the General Exam that once conveyed ALL AMATEUR
PRIVELEGES. Now you are saying that it is the defacto starting point
because there is no Morse Exam to accompany it? That just smacks of
Code Tested Extra elitism.

No, I'm saying that once people get their license, most will choose not to
stay long at the Technician level.

Code -was- the barrier.

Also keep in mind that the General test
of the past was much harder than today's General as they took a lot of that
material and moved it to the new license classes.

No, it wasn't. It is substantially more difficult today. And don't
forget that half of the OLD General test is now called "Technician."

Third, the Advanced and Extra Exams have been combined, thereby
dumbing down the Extra, bringing it closer to the present General
Exam,

Not hardly.

How could it not be?

I've taught the classes for today's Extra exam. The VEC
Question Pool Committee combined the material from the old Advanced and
Extra and created a monstor question pool covering all those topics.

Exactly, and you say that as if I didn't know it.

So what do you get when you combine questions from a lower license
class with that of a higher license class? You have REDUCED standards
for that higher license.

Imagine the old Novice Q pool being combined with the Extra Q pool for
the Extra license... that should magnify my point so that even you can
see it.

The
only "break" is that you end up taking one written test of 50 questions
instead of two tests of 40 and 50 questions for a total of 90 questions.
Today's Extra exam has an 800+ question pool to select from for that 50
question test.

Miccolis has covered this...

not pushing it toward an MSEE like some of you would like to
think.

I've never made that assertion nor implied it. That MSEE has to learn a
whole lot more than was ever covered in the Amateur radio exams.

Are you an MSEE?

So if there is so little difference between the Technician and
General Exams, and the Extra has been dumbed down to Advanced level,
why do we still have people wanting more superfluous license classes
that are growing closer together in difficulty allatime?

I did not say there is so little difference between the Tech and General.

I believe you did, but will accept that is not what you meant (unless
you say it again).

Merely that it is reasonable for a person to study to go to General either
right at the beginning or shortly thereafter.

That would be known as the "Old General." They were split in the
Spring of 1987.

Nor has the Extra been dumbed down to the Advanced class.

Sure it has.

If you were to
talk to any of the people who earned their Extra under the pre-2000 system,
they will tell you that the Advanced class written test was the hardest of
all the writtens.

It was. I took and passed both.

So the Extra was already dumbed down, and now it is combined with a
lower class pool...

Sounds really, really dumbed down now.

That is where the bulk of the difficult technical
material was. The Extra class test addressed more detailed knowledge of the
rules, regs, what it takes to be a VE,

My opinion is that the VEC needs to cover being a VE, not a
additional, superfluous license class.

and a small amount of technical
material.

A very small amount.

When the system was changed, all the material for both the
Advanced and Extra went into the new Extra question pool

Which is why it's dumbed down.

And in the end, it's still allabout Morse Code with you.

That conclusion is not based on any of the opinions I have expressed in this
thread or any other.

Dee, it's based upon all of the opinions that you express.

In the exam sessions, we actively encourage a person to try the
General when they pass the Tech exam. Those applicants that have chosen
to
develop an understanding of the Tech material (i.e. learn the antenna
equation and how to use it rather than memorizing the lengths for the
questions that might occur on the test) usually come within a couple of
points of passing the General. Some would have passed the General if
they
had simply known to also memorize the General frequency priviliges along
with the material they already knew.

Did you say memorize? Wouldn't you rather they understood the
frequency privileges?

I don't bother getting involved with that discussion as most just try to
twist it to suit their own purposes. There is some material that must be
memorized just as frequencies and equations. Other things must be
understood as to when and how to use those equations.

Fair enough, but I had to bring it up.

The material on the Tech and General is straight forward enough that it
can
be grasped by just about anyone with a moderate amount of study. If one
looks at it in terms of return (license & range of privileges) versus
investment (study), the General is perfectly reasonable as a first
license
step.

All government testing should be straight forward.

All of the testing is straight forward. The Extra is merely difficult not
convoluted.

So all of the matierial is straight forward? Good.

On the other hand, let's look at an "entry level" license and exam. You
have got to cover rules, safety (including RF radiation safety), and good
operating practices as a bare minimum. By the time you do this, you've
already got a significant portion of what you would need for a General
class
license. Your return (license & privileges) versus investment (study)
for
an entry level license, is just not that worthwhile.

If you remove the RF Safety, and change the power levels below that
required for an RFEA, then you have the makings of a simplified
amateur class.

Why should anybody even bother with such a limited license? It would be so
limited people would get bored and drop out or immediately upgrade. Not
worth the investment of time.

Not children, not scouts. I guess we don't want to attract newcomers
for a lifetime of amateur radio, just the retirees.

Those countries that have folded their two license classes into one class
often had a written test that was equivalent to our Extra not our General
for both and the only differentiating item was the code test. Thus they
really had no "entry" license.

I wasn't allowed to talk about Japan. You shouldn't be allowed to
talk about anonymous countries.

Never said one wasn't allowed to talk about Japan. Merely pointed out the
invalidity of trying to compare the systems.

Invalidity?

They had VHF/UHF licenses and full licenses.
The US has been somewhat unusual in that there is a license (General)
that
has a significant range of privileges on all bands with a moderate level
level of testing.

Dee, N8UZE-

The General once conveyed ALL AMATEUR PRIVILEGES.

Sheesh!

And the General test covered the appropriate material at that time.

Still does.

Although the "incentive licensing" had major implementation issues, it did
have the benefit of bringing people into the hobby since they could take the
material in smaller bites instead of having to learn everything all at the
same time. It achieved that goal.

Smaller bites? That wasn't the purpose of Inventive Licensing.

So Sheesh! yourself. You are trying to compare the system of several
decades ago with newer systems.

Dee, N8UZE

Are there still tube questions in the exams?

wrote in message
oups.com...
On Mar 4, 6:56 pm, "Dee Flint" wrote:
wrote in message

[snip]

Also keep in mind that the General test
of the past was much harder than today's General as they took a lot of
that
material and moved it to the new license classes.

No, it wasn't. It is substantially more difficult today. And don't
forget that half of the OLD General test is now called "Technician."


There were several changes. There was the change to the incentive licensing
where material was moved from the General to the Advanced and Extra. That
changed General test was the one that was the same for the Technician and
the General. Then a decade later or so, the General test was split to a
Tech written and General written.

Third, the Advanced and Extra Exams have been combined, thereby
dumbing down the Extra, bringing it closer to the present General
Exam,


Combining material does not dumb down a category. Dumbing down requires
removing material. The material has not been removed. It has made the
Extra harder because you cannot take the material in smaller chunks. You
still have to learn all the same material but do it all at once.

So what do you get when you combine questions from a lower license
class with that of a higher license class? You have REDUCED standards
for that higher license.

No you do not as no material was removed. It's actually more difficult
because you have to do it all at once.


Imagine the old Novice Q pool being combined with the Extra Q pool for
the Extra license... that should magnify my point so that even you can
see it.


Nope it does not make your point. Only if material is removed does it
become easier. If you just combine material without removing any, you make
it harder.

The
only "break" is that you end up taking one written test of 50 questions
instead of two tests of 40 and 50 questions for a total of 90 questions.
Today's Extra exam has an 800+ question pool to select from for that 50
question test.

Miccolis has covered this...

not pushing it toward an MSEE like some of you would like to
think.

I've never made that assertion nor implied it. That MSEE has to learn a
whole lot more than was ever covered in the Amateur radio exams.

Are you an MSEE?


Nope but as part of my degree, I had to take basic electronics courses and
they were more detailed than what is on the ham exams. I can't even begin
to imagine that MSEE level.

So if there is so little difference between the Technician and
General Exams, and the Extra has been dumbed down to Advanced level,
why do we still have people wanting more superfluous license classes
that are growing closer together in difficulty allatime?


That is not a valid conclusion. There was no material dropped so it was not
dumbed down.

I did not say there is so little difference between the Tech and General.

I believe you did, but will accept that is not what you meant (unless
you say it again).

Merely that it is reasonable for a person to study to go to General
either
right at the beginning or shortly thereafter.

That would be known as the "Old General." They were split in the
Spring of 1987.


I am talking about the General test as it exists since the changes in April
of 2000.

Nor has the Extra been dumbed down to the Advanced class.

Sure it has.


I've taught the material. It has not not been dumbed down. Either way,
whether you took the two tests separately or took today's single test, the
same quantity of material has to be learned.

If you were to
talk to any of the people who earned their Extra under the pre-2000
system,
they will tell you that the Advanced class written test was the hardest
of
all the writtens.

It was. I took and passed both.

So the Extra was already dumbed down, and now it is combined with a
lower class pool...

Sounds really, really dumbed down now.


See above.

[snip]

When the system was changed, all the material for both the
Advanced and Extra went into the new Extra question pool

Which is why it's dumbed down.


Not when all the material was kept.

And in the end, it's still allabout Morse Code with you.

That conclusion is not based on any of the opinions I have expressed in
this
thread or any other.

Dee, it's based upon all of the opinions that you express.


If you choose to believe that, not my problem. I'm into encouraging people
to explore the many facets of amateur radio.

[snip]

All government testing should be straight forward.

All of the testing is straight forward. The Extra is merely difficult
not
convoluted.

So all of the matierial is straight forward? Good.


[snip]

Why should anybody even bother with such a limited license? It would be
so
limited people would get bored and drop out or immediately upgrade. Not
worth the investment of time.

Not children, not scouts. I guess we don't want to attract newcomers
for a lifetime of amateur radio, just the retirees.


The children and the scouts seem to thrive on the challenges. It is the 20
somethings, 30 somethings, and 40 somethings that seem not to want
challenges.

[snip]

Although the "incentive licensing" had major implementation issues, it
did
have the benefit of bringing people into the hobby since they could take
the
material in smaller bites instead of having to learn everything all at
the
same time. It achieved that goal.

Smaller bites? That wasn't the purpose of Inventive Licensing.


That was exactly the purpose of Incenting Licensing.

Dee, N8UZE

On Mar 4, 4:53�pm, wrote:
On Mar 4, 6:56 pm, "Dee Flint" wrote:





wrote in message

roups.com...

On Mar 4, 11:38 am, "Dee Flint" wrote:
wrote in message

groups.com...

On Mar 4, 10:25 am, "Dee Flint" wrote:
wrote in message

roups.com...

On Mar 4, 9:10 am, "Dee Flint" wrote:
"KH6HZ" wrote in message

...

[snip]

As I see it, there simply is no longer a need for an "entry level"
license.

Why not?

As I suspected, and Len asserted, "It's all about Morse Code" with
some of you's guys.

Not at all. *There is such a wide range of enjoyable activities available
that I want people to be able to explore them. *For the same reason
(expanding one's range of activities and knowledge base), I've dragged
Extra
class licensees over to the VHF station at Field day to show them what
can
be achieved on those frequencies. *While there are many Extras familiar
with
the VHF/UHF possibilities, for some reason the Extras in the club I
belong
to it have not really explored them.

I was referrign to Code Testing.

Not relevant to anything I have said in this thread. *It is not about code
testing but about each of us "being all that we can be".

...an army of one. *Try to keep up with the changes.

Salute! :-)

The
only "break" is that you end up taking one written test of 50 questions
instead of two tests of 40 and 50 questions for a total of 90 questions.
Today's Extra exam has an 800+ question pool to select from for that 50
question test.

Miccolis has covered this...

I thought I had?

For the new QP with the General set to start on 1 Jul 07 there
are a total of 1679 questions for all three writtens. Since only
120 questions make up all three, the number of possible test
questions are in a ratio of 13.99:1. That is MORE than the
10 minimum required in FCC regulations.

The Extra class exam (50 questions) has a ratio of 16.04:1
pool to required, new General 13.86:1, Techinician that
began in January is 11.20:1.

Just thought I'd toss that into the maelstrom. :-)

73, LA

not pushing it toward an MSEE like some of you would like to
think.

I've never made that assertion nor implied it. *That MSEE has to learn a
whole lot more than was ever covered in the Amateur radio exams.

Are you an MSEE?

*So if there is so little difference between the Technician and
General Exams, and the Extra has been dumbed down to Advanced level,
why do we still have people wanting more superfluous license classes
that are growing closer together in difficulty allatime?

I did not say there is so little difference between the Tech and General.

I believe you did, but will accept that is not what you meant (unless
you say it again).

Merely that it is reasonable for a person to study to go to General either
right at the beginning or shortly thereafter.

That would be known as the "Old General." *They were split in the
Spring of 1987.

Nor has the Extra been dumbed down to the Advanced class. *

Sure it has.

If you were to
talk to any of the people who earned their Extra under the pre-2000 system,
they will tell you that the Advanced class written test was the hardest of
all the writtens. *

It was. *I took and passed both.

So the Extra was already dumbed down, and now it is combined with a
lower class pool...

Sounds really, really dumbed down now.

That is where the bulk of the difficult technical
material was. *The Extra class test addressed more detailed knowledge of the
rules, regs, what it takes to be a VE,

My opinion is that the VEC needs to cover being a VE, not a
additional, superfluous license class.

and a small amount of technical
material. *

A very small amount.

When the system was changed, all the material for both the
Advanced and Extra went into the new Extra question pool

Which is why it's dumbed down.

And in the end, it's still allabout Morse Code with you.

That conclusion is not based on any of the opinions I have expressed in this
thread or any other.

Dee, it's based upon all of the opinions that you express.





In the exam sessions, we actively encourage a person to try the
General when they pass the Tech exam. *Those applicants that have chosen
to
develop an understanding of the Tech material (i.e. learn the antenna
equation and how to use it rather than memorizing the lengths for the
questions that might occur on the test) usually come within a couple of
points of passing the General. *Some would have passed the General if
they
had simply known to also memorize the General frequency priviliges along
with the material they already knew.

Did you say memorize? *Wouldn't you rather they understood the
frequency privileges?

I don't bother getting involved with that discussion as most just try to
twist it to suit their own purposes. *There is some material that must be
memorized just as frequencies and equations. *Other things must be
understood as to when and how to use those equations.

Fair enough, but I had to bring it up.

The material on the Tech and General is straight forward enough that it
can
be grasped by just about anyone with a moderate amount of study. *If one
looks at it in terms of return (license & range of privileges) versus
investment (study), the General is perfectly reasonable as a first
license
step.

All government testing should be straight forward.

All of the testing is straight forward. *The Extra is merely difficult not
convoluted.

So all of the matierial is straight forward? *Good.





On the other hand, let's look at an "entry level" license and exam. *You
have got to cover rules, safety (including RF radiation safety), and good
operating practices as a bare minimum. *By the time you do this, you've
already got a significant portion of what you would need for a General
class
license. *Your return (license & privileges) versus investment (study)
for
an entry level license, is just not that worthwhile.

If you remove the RF Safety, and change the power levels below that
required for an RFEA, then you have the makings of a simplified
amateur class.

Why should anybody even bother with such a limited license? *It would be so
limited people would get bored and drop out or immediately upgrade. *Not
worth the investment of time.

Not children, not scouts. *I guess we don't want to attract newcomers
for a lifetime of amateur radio, just the retirees.

Those countries that have folded their two license classes into one class
often had a written test that was equivalent to our Extra not our General
for both and the only differentiating item was the code test. *Thus they
really had no "entry" license.

I wasn't allowed to talk about Japan. *You shouldn't be allowed to
talk about anonymous countries.

Never said one wasn't allowed to talk about Japan. *Merely pointed out the
invalidity of trying to compare the systems.

Invalidity?



They had VHF/UHF licenses and full licenses.
The US has been somewhat unusual in that there is a license (General)
that
has a significant range of privileges on all bands with a moderate level
level of testing.

Dee, N8UZE-

The General once conveyed ALL AMATEUR PRIVILEGES.

Sheesh!

And the

wrote:

Code -was- the barrier.

If the amateur radio licensing statistics posted on Speroni's web site are
any indication, then code -wasn't- the barrier.

Feb 2007's licensing statistics clearly show the downward trend in amateur
radio licensing continues unabated.