From the July 2003 issue (pg. 37) of PC World Magazine...

A brazen new competitor to DSL and cable is
"within striking distance of being the third
major broadband pipe into the home," says FCC
Chairman Michael Powell. Broadband of power
line, or BPL (currently being offered in pilot
programs by a dozen or so utilities around the
country), promises to deliver high-speed
Internet access straight from the electrical
socket in your wall. Long written off as an
also-ran technology, BPL has new spark, thanks
to technical advances that address problems of
interference and in-line transformers that
scramble signals. The last hurdle will be getting
FCC approval. Considering Powell's enthusiasm -
the general belief that BPL will cost less than
cable and DSL - a green light could be imminent.

While everyone would obviously like cheaper broadband internet access, my
principle concern is the possible interference with ham radio out here in
the real world - the real world of corroded and rotted old power lines,
decades old transformers and power stations, and the ancient (often poorly
grounded) electrical wiring in old homes and buildings throughout this
country. Like many others, I suspect this technology is going to have a
dramatic impact on ham radio.

Does anyone know about these touted "advances that address problems of
interference" mentioned above? Are these "advances" really going to prevent
potential interference problems out here in the real world?


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

Dwight Stewart wrote in message ...
From the July 2003 issue (pg. 37) of PC World Magazine...

A brazen new competitor to DSL and cable is
"within striking distance of being the third
major broadband pipe into the home," says FCC
Chairman Michael Powell. Broadband of power
line, or BPL (currently being offered in pilot
programs by a dozen or so utilities around the
country), promises to deliver high-speed
Internet access straight from the electrical
socket in your wall. Long written off as an
also-ran technology, BPL has new spark, thanks
to technical advances that address problems of
interference and in-line transformers that
scramble signals. The last hurdle will be getting
FCC approval. Considering Powell's enthusiasm -
the general belief that BPL will cost less than
cable and DSL - a green light could be imminent.

While everyone would obviously like cheaper broadband internet access, my
principle concern is the possible interference with ham radio out here in
the real world - the real world of corroded and rotted old power lines,
decades old transformers and power stations, and the ancient (often poorly
grounded) electrical wiring in old homes and buildings throughout this
country. Like many others, I suspect this technology is going to have a
dramatic impact on ham radio.

It sure will, if it's allowed to be implemented.

FCC Docket 03-104 addresses implementation of these systems. Comments
close today. ARRL submitted a 120 page paper on the effects of the
proposed systems. None of it is good news for hams.

Does anyone know about these touted "advances that address problems of
interference" mentioned above? Are these "advances" really going to prevent
potential interference problems out here in the real world?

Basically they come down to two ideas:

1) spectrum masking, which consists of not allowing the BPL systems to
use frequencies in the ham bands. Which is fine until something
nonlinear in the system causes intermodulation products, harmonics or
other spurious signals to fall in the ham bands. This method was used
to stop HomePlug and other in-building systems from tearing up 80
meters - AFTER our own W1RFI and other ARRL folks got the manufacturer
to recognize the problem.

2) "improved modes and modulations", which permit the use of lower
signal levels and hence lower signal leakage. Supposedly.

The BIG problem is obvious to anyone who actually goes out and looks
at a typical aerial distribution system. Lots of nice, long wires, way
up in the air, running all over everyone's neighborhood. Put a little
RF in them and watch it radiate.

Heck, one of the biggest problems in access BPL is that the lines are
"lossy" at RF. They're "lossy" because they radiate!

You can read the comments of others and leave your own at the FCC
website, via the ECFS system. Check out what the ARRL is saying and
doing at the ARRL website.

73 de Jim, N2EY

Phil, I doubt you're kidding, but a single wire with a ground return? That
is going to have a ton of problems even *without* putting broadband on it.
My guess is if it is implemented, everyone should look up all am radio
stations that they fall in the secondary service area of (or near the limit
of the primary service area) and find one or more that the system interferes
with. Then complain to the commercial station and the FCC that you want to
hear the commercial station. The FCC tends to react to problems involving
commercial radio stations quite quickly (as some outlaw FM broadcasters have
found out). I wonder how the broadband will impact the newly developed am
stereo broadcasting? At least the commercial stations have deep pockets
(since there are only a few owners of almost all the radio and television
stations in the US nowadays).

73 from Rochester, NY
Jim AA2QA



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In article , Dwight Stewart
writes:

While everyone would obviously like cheaper broadband internet access, my
principle concern is the possible interference with ham radio out here in
the real world - the real world of corroded and rotted old power lines,
decades old transformers and power stations, and the ancient (often poorly
grounded) electrical wiring in old homes and buildings throughout this
country. Like many others, I suspect this technology is going to have a
dramatic impact on ham radio.

Does anyone know about these touted "advances that address problems of
interference" mentioned above? Are these "advances" really going to prevent
potential interference problems out here in the real world?


Dwight:

I've got news for you: Get ready for it! We hams have dumbed ourselves
down to the point of irrelevance, and money-making consumer technology
like BPL that will bring high-speed Internet access to millions of consumers
will always take precedence over the needs of a few hundred thousand
hams who have virtually zero economic impact. Personally, if inexpensive
high-speed BPL Internet service were available in my area, I'd be all for it!

BTW -- the irony of the BPL situation is that the ham radio mode best able
to overcome the potential interference is good ole fashion CW!!! And that,
my friend, would be no problem for yours truly!

73 de Larry, K3LT

On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 03:02:43 GMT, Jim Hampton wrote:

Phil, I doubt you're kidding, but a single wire with a ground return? That
is going to have a ton of problems even *without* putting broadband on it.

That amazed me too - but there's only one insulator on the pole pig
and one wire crossing the street to same. Three phase primary is
three wire, so there isn't even a Wye Neutral for return.

I first saw this system along the Trans-Canada highway in Alberta in
1970 and I put it down to the rural-ness of the area. But suburban
Portland in the 21st Century?

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

(N2EY) wrote in message


Basically they come down to two ideas:

1) spectrum masking, which consists of not allowing the BPL systems to
use frequencies in the ham bands. Which is fine until something
nonlinear in the system causes intermodulation products, harmonics or
other spurious signals to fall in the ham bands. This method was used
to stop HomePlug and other in-building systems from tearing up 80
meters - AFTER our own W1RFI and other ARRL folks got the manufacturer
to recognize the problem.

2) "improved modes and modulations", which permit the use of lower
signal levels and hence lower signal leakage. Supposedly.

The BIG problem is obvious to anyone who actually goes out and looks
at a typical aerial distribution system. Lots of nice, long wires, way
up in the air, running all over everyone's neighborhood. Put a little
RF in them and watch it radiate.

Heck, one of the biggest problems in access BPL is that the lines are
"lossy" at RF. They're "lossy" because they radiate!

You can read the comments of others and leave your own at the FCC
website, via the ECFS system. Check out what the ARRL is saying and
doing at the ARRL website.

Where is the NTIA in all this? They sure got their knickers in a twist
about hams having broad access to 60M because of the potential
interference to vital gummint HF comms from us. BPL is not the same
kind of threat to the gummint itself than it is to us? Hams are not
the only users of HF, in fact we're close to being bit players
overall. What about the SWL's? All the gummint time & frequency
standards stations? All the HF military comms we don't know about? The
commercial PACTOR users?

Question for Phil: At what point can opponents of BPL take it out of
the hands of the FCC and into the Federal courts? I'm thinking in
terms of the ARRL taking it to the wall and laying on the expert
witnesses Powell Jr. can't brush off like he can at this stage.


73 de Jim, N2EY

w3rv

Dwight Stewart wrote:


Does anyone know about these touted "advances that address problems of
interference" mentioned above? Are these "advances" really going to prevent
potential interference problems out here in the real world?

Sure. Just enable your DSP filters, and all will be well with the world. Just
ask
Squiggy or Cecil.

Phil Kane wrote:

On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 03:02:43 GMT, Jim Hampton wrote:

Phil, I doubt you're kidding, but a single wire with a ground return? That
is going to have a ton of problems even *without* putting broadband on it.

That amazed me too - but there's only one insulator on the pole pig
and one wire crossing the street to same. Three phase primary is
three wire, so there isn't even a Wye Neutral for return.

I first saw this system along the Trans-Canada highway in Alberta in
1970 and I put it down to the rural-ness of the area. But suburban
Portland in the 21st Century?

Isn't that putting a lot of faith in the quality of the ground? I still
remember
years ago when I serviced a repeater out in the national forest that appeared to
be working normally until some remote user keyed it up while I had my VM probes
in the AC socket- the primary voltage suddenly dropped from 118 to about 50
volts.

It was instantly obvious what was wrong- the neutral return was open and the
keydown load on the AC now found the series resistance of the ground
return-actually earth now- was such that it dropped the primary voltage that
much. And the pole pig was only a few feet away.

I gotta wonder how in the world a utilitly could reliably use earth for a
return
when they have no idea what load the consumer will place on it. I've never seen
earth with resistance as low as copper! :^)

Dick

Brian Kelly wrote:

(N2EY) wrote in message


Basically they come down to two ideas:

1) spectrum masking, which consists of not allowing the BPL systems to
use frequencies in the ham bands. Which is fine until something
nonlinear in the system causes intermodulation products, harmonics or
other spurious signals to fall in the ham bands. This method was used
to stop HomePlug and other in-building systems from tearing up 80
meters - AFTER our own W1RFI and other ARRL folks got the manufacturer
to recognize the problem.

2) "improved modes and modulations", which permit the use of lower
signal levels and hence lower signal leakage. Supposedly.

The BIG problem is obvious to anyone who actually goes out and looks
at a typical aerial distribution system. Lots of nice, long wires, way
up in the air, running all over everyone's neighborhood. Put a little
RF in them and watch it radiate.

Heck, one of the biggest problems in access BPL is that the lines are
"lossy" at RF. They're "lossy" because they radiate!

You can read the comments of others and leave your own at the FCC
website, via the ECFS system. Check out what the ARRL is saying and
doing at the ARRL website.

Where is the NTIA in all this? They sure got their knickers in a twist
about hams having broad access to 60M because of the potential
interference to vital gummint HF comms from us. BPL is not the same
kind of threat to the gummint itself than it is to us? Hams are not
the only users of HF, in fact we're close to being bit players
overall. What about the SWL's? All the gummint time & frequency
standards stations? All the HF military comms we don't know about? The
commercial PACTOR users?


Eggsactly! We don't have any idea what's going on behind the scenes, but
if NTIA is no more on the ball than they were in the 60 meter case it may well
be NOTHING! recall they said not a word until well past the comments and reply
comments time, then sent a letter of opposition to FCC. You suppose they're as
asleep again, or worse will wake up to find DC-80mhz QRM a done deal?

I really doubt it. Somebody, somewhere will surely clue Powell etc in before tea
time. Otherwise it's egg-on-face time, bigtime.


Question for Phil: At what point can opponents of BPL take it out of
the hands of the FCC and into the Federal courts? I'm thinking in
terms of the ARRL taking it to the wall and laying on the expert
witnesses Powell Jr. can't brush off like he can at this stage.



That surely wouldn't set well, a suit showing where and how FCC abrogated it's
statutory responsibility if favor of the$$$$$ set.

"Phil Kane" wrote in message t.net...
On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 03:02:43 GMT, Jim Hampton wrote:

Phil, I doubt you're kidding, but a single wire with a ground return? That
is going to have a ton of problems even *without* putting broadband on it.

That amazed me too - but there's only one insulator on the pole pig
and one wire crossing the street to same. Three phase primary is
three wire, so there isn't even a Wye Neutral for return.

I first saw this system along the Trans-Canada highway in Alberta in
1970 and I put it down to the rural-ness of the area. But suburban
Portland in the 21st Century?

Are there NO other wires on the pole?

Here in EPA, most residential areas have three-phase going down the
larger streets (like South Devon Ave. here in Wayne), with
single-phase feeders going to the side streets. The return is partly
through the dirt but mostly through the main messenger that carries
the 120/240 twisted wires.

Earth return will work fine, if the ground is good enough. The few
HVDC lines that have been installed can be operated that way if one
conductor fails.

73 de Jim, N2EY