In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:


We all worked 4Q2TOO in the low end of 80, "The Island of Ambrosio".


"Four Q Two Too?" Isn't that redundant?

73 de Larry, K3LT

Alun Palmer wrote in message . ..
(N2EY) wrote in
:

In article , Alun Palmer
writes:

"Here" is all of Region 2. A big part of the world.

No, only the USA, it's still phone in the rest of R2

No, it isn't. Other modes are authorized, not just 'phone.

The point being, however, that phone is authorised there in every
country but one

OK, fine.

I think you'll find it isn't being fixed.

Sure it is, but it will take time. Before the end of the decade
7000-7200 will be worldwide exclusive amateur. That's double what
Region 1 and Region 3 have now. It will make sense for those
regions to move their 'phone up above 7100 and leave below 7100 to
CW and digital.

Not while the US has CW in 7100-7150. As long as that's the case it
makes more sense _to_them_ to leave 7000-7100 unchanged and split the
'new' 7100-7200 50/50. Net gain to you - zero.

If it gets the foreign 'phones off of 7030, it's a gain.

The ARRL bandplan is the only
one out of step, so nobody else is likely to change theirs,
notwithstanding Europe and some other areas getting 7100-7200 as
additional spectrum in 2007.

What part of the world will not get 7100-7200?

None

There you are.

And why should Region 2 change now, with the band getting wider?

You mean the US, and I don't suppose the ARRL will change

It's not just ARRL but FCC.

You're right, but it's not the rest of the region

So because everyone else makes a mistake, the USA should make it too?

This reminds me of an old comic strip. The proud mother is watching the
passing out parade and calls out "Look at my Johnny, he's the only one in
step!".

It reminds me of a different strip. The lemmings are rushing over the
cliff, and one grabs his ankles and yells "CANNONBALL!!!!"

According to you, the USA is the only country in step in the
parade.

Nope.

According to me, the USA has a better system and the other countries
haven;t caught on yet.

Here in the USA we have some roads reserved for autos only, and some
lanes reserved for car pools and transit buses. Act as incentives to
use more efficient means of transport. Also acknowledges the basic
incompatibility of small and large vehicles. Non-phone subbands act as
an incentive to use more efficient modes than analog voice, and
acknowledge the basic incompatibility between wide and narrow modes.

All that will happen is that a DX window will
appear from 7150-7200, but the DX will continue to use phone
everywhere they use it now - indefinitely. Sorry to be the one to
break that to you!

So their lack of a bandplan and good manners should cause the USA
to follow their lead? I think not!

They have a bandplan. Phone stays above at least 7040, except 7030 in
R3.

There are Canadians operating LSB on 7030.

I wasn't aware of that. That is against any bandplan that I know of,
and I agree that it is bad manners

Exactly. Main point is that bandplans are not much help if folks ignore
them.

And the only reason "DX windows" exist is so that foreign 'phones have
a place to go where they won't be buried by hordes of 1.5 KW USA
'phones. IOW, so the DX can work each other once in a while.

That's not the bandplan you want, but it's a bandplan. The reference
to good manners I don't follow.

The folks who don't follow the bandplan have bad manners. Having a
Canadian SSB net on 7030 when they have 7000-7030 is bad manners.

Agreed

Thanks

I don't expect the USA to follow anyone's lead. Just don't be
surprised when no-one follows the USA's lead either.

And the result is chaos.

Yes it is. However, the rest of the world probably think that it would
be easier for _one_ country to change than for 100+, which doesn't mean
that I think it will happen.

So even though the result is chaos, the USA should follow along and
make it that much worse?

If the USA followed along it would no longer be chaos.

Yes, it would. In fact, it would be worse, because the DX would have
nowhere to hide.

Ask yourself this: Why do DX 'phones operate in the US CW/data
subbands at all if they can operate in the US 'phone subbands?

As I say, though,
I'm not holding my breath for that to happen.

800 is pretty high. 600-700 is more common among CW ops. The SSB
audio passband is typically 300-2700 Hz, so 600 or even 800 is
pretty low. 1500 would be smack in the middle.

True enough

This of course would be what you
would get if they netted onto the SSB and then offset by their
usual amount.

There is no offset in CW. The carriers are all on the same
frequency.

Point is that what sounds like "right on top" may not sound that
way to the other guy.

It depends which side of the nominal carrier frequency the CW
signal is on. However, assuming my SSB filter is working, I would
say they were low, i.e. on the same side as the LSB sideband, or I
would be filtering them out. This also puts them almost in the
middle of the SSB signal, doesn't it?

No. Their tone would be 1500 if it were in the middle.

Listen to a busy CW contest with a wide (AM bandwidth) rx and it
sounds like a pile of intentional inteference. Switch in
appropriate filters and you find that almost all of the stations
have spaced themselves so they don't overlap.

Neither am I
talking about weak phone stations, although they could be weak
at some other QTH.

That's another point.

Of course the DX 'phones could have switched to CW and
answered the CQers, then politely asked them to move.

But they didn't, did they?

I guess not.

*My Southgate Type 7 has two cascaded 8 pole 500 Hz crystal
filters, giving an effective bandwidth of less than 400 Hz and
very steep filter skirts. And it has an audio LC filter as
well.


So, if say, you called QRU? on 7080 and there was a strong
signal SSB QSO in progress, would you be able to tell? This is a
genuine question.

I would listen first and steer clear of anyhting that sounds like
SSB. Then I'd send "IE" a few times to test the waters. If I
heard something start up when I did that, I'd move.

But usually I am below 7060. Above about 7060 is data and foreign
SSB country.

I
don't posses a CW filter.

One of the reasons some hams get turned off to CW is that they
use equipment that really isn't meant for the mode. Most HF rigs
today are primarily SSB rigs with CW tacked on. Some are pretty
good, many are awful.


If I need it I have an outboard audio filter

Ugh. Audio filters are no substitute for IF filtering. And unless
the AGC is turned off, QRM can dominate the receiver.


True, but I don't really need a narrow CW filter for anything

Data modes.

If I ever get around to trying any

(a Radio Shack DSP unit,
which is fairly basic and suffers from low audio output). I hadn't
thought about that when I said I had no CW filter. It tends to
'take off' on 20 with RF getting inside it, but it's OK on 40.

What sort of rig?

I use an IC-729 in my shack. Excellent receiver RF performance.

Compared to what? No offense, but there are some really good rigs out
there.

The reviews at the time said it was comparable with anything regardless
of price bracket in _basic_ receiver performance, but that was back in
'92. I expect the world has moved on, and it never was loaded with
features.

You might want to compare it to more modern stuff. The Ten Tec and
Elecraft websites have various receiver performance measures of
different rigs, as actually measured.

What do you use, anyway?

My homebrew 100 watt transceiver and an Elecraft K2 built from a kit.


I hope your K2 doesn't drift, unlike one that I heard on the bands.

It doesn't. I have had it for over two years now and it's done very
well.

Of
course, that may have been due to the person who put it together.

The classic problem with kits is that they are only as good as the
builder.

Not very
good audio, though. Ironically it has nowhere to fit a narrow SSB
filter, but has a place for a CW filter (nothing in there, of
course).

Couldn't a narrow SSB filter be put in the CW slot?

Yes, but without making any further mods it would be selected when the
mode was set to 'CW-N'.

There must be a mod for it.

I haven't seen one so far, but you would think it could be done.

Be the first....


Not the
Rolls Royce of radios, but I'm not overloaded with cash.

The Southgate Type 7 cost me less than $100 to build.

I am guessing you would hear something,though?

Depends on the situation. Usually SSB sounds like monkey chatter
through a narrow filter. But near the edges it can be very weak
or inaudible.

As I've explained, I think this is going on in the middle of the
SSB sigs, which is another reason to be suspicious

Sure. But 1500 is the middle, not 800.

The best solution is for wide and narrow modes to have their own
subbands. They simply don't mix well.

Yes

So when will the rest of the world get on the beam and have
nonphone subbands?

They do, and they have done as long as I remember. In some countries
they are voluntary, and in others they are compulsory, but nowhere
are they as wide as in the USA.

Time for them to get on the beam, then.

Depends what you mean - widen them or make them compulsory?

Both - just like the USA.

There is no
expansion of CW use to justify the former,

Yes, there is. Look at participation in contests as just one measure.
CW up, phone flat.


Contesters, the really serious kind, use whatever mode is specified in the
rules. If the rules said semaphore they'd learn that too.

Almost all contests have separate CW and 'phone weekends. (FD and ARRL
160 are the exceptions that prove the rule). The ham population can
choose to operate one, both, or neither. CW participation is UP while
'phone is flat.

and most administrations don't
really care what hams do within the ham bands. I suspect that, for
example, Industry Canada don't even care about Canadian hams annoying
other Canadian hams by operating phone on CW frequencies.

Then you can expect more of the behavior you have complained about.


Perhaps

Count on it. Remember the story of the Tower of Babel?

73 de Jim, N2EY

Alun Palmer wrote in message . ..
(N2EY) wrote in
om:

Alun Palmer wrote in message
. ..
(N2EY) wrote in
:

In article , Alun Palmer
writes:

"Here" is all of Region 2. A big part of the world.

No, only the USA, it's still phone in the rest of R2

No, it isn't. Other modes are authorized, not just 'phone.

The point being, however, that phone is authorised there in every
country but one

OK, fine.

I think you'll find it isn't being fixed.

Sure it is, but it will take time. Before the end of the decade
7000-7200 will be worldwide exclusive amateur. That's double
what Region 1 and Region 3 have now. It will make sense for
those regions to move their 'phone up above 7100 and leave below
7100 to CW and digital.

Not while the US has CW in 7100-7150. As long as that's the case
it makes more sense _to_them_ to leave 7000-7100 unchanged and
split the 'new' 7100-7200 50/50. Net gain to you - zero.

If it gets the foreign 'phones off of 7030, it's a gain.

The ARRL bandplan is the only
one out of step, so nobody else is likely to change theirs,
notwithstanding Europe and some other areas getting 7100-7200 as
additional spectrum in 2007.

What part of the world will not get 7100-7200?

None

There you are.

And why should Region 2 change now, with the band getting wider?

You mean the US, and I don't suppose the ARRL will change

It's not just ARRL but FCC.

You're right, but it's not the rest of the region

So because everyone else makes a mistake, the USA should make it
too?

This reminds me of an old comic strip. The proud mother is watching
the passing out parade and calls out "Look at my Johnny, he's the only
one in step!".

It reminds me of a different strip. The lemmings are rushing over the
cliff, and one grabs his ankles and yells "CANNONBALL!!!!"

According to you, the USA is the only country in step in the parade.

Nope.

According to me, the USA has a better system and the other countries
haven;t caught on yet.

Here in the USA we have some roads reserved for autos only, and some
lanes reserved for car pools and transit buses. Act as incentives to
use more efficient means of transport. Also acknowledges the basic
incompatibility of small and large vehicles. Non-phone subbands act as
an incentive to use more efficient modes than analog voice, and
acknowledge the basic incompatibility between wide and narrow modes.

All that will happen is that a DX window will
appear from 7150-7200, but the DX will continue to use phone
everywhere they use it now - indefinitely. Sorry to be the one
to break that to you!

So their lack of a bandplan and good manners should cause the
USA to follow their lead? I think not!

They have a bandplan. Phone stays above at least 7040, except 7030
in R3.

There are Canadians operating LSB on 7030.

I wasn't aware of that. That is against any bandplan that I know of,
and I agree that it is bad manners

Exactly. Main point is that bandplans are not much help if folks
ignore them.

And the only reason "DX windows" exist is so that foreign 'phones have
a place to go where they won't be buried by hordes of 1.5 KW USA
'phones. IOW, so the DX can work each other once in a while.

That's not the bandplan you want, but it's a bandplan. The
reference to good manners I don't follow.

The folks who don't follow the bandplan have bad manners. Having a
Canadian SSB net on 7030 when they have 7000-7030 is bad manners.

Agreed

Thanks

I don't expect the USA to follow anyone's lead. Just don't be
surprised when no-one follows the USA's lead either.

And the result is chaos.

Yes it is. However, the rest of the world probably think that it
would be easier for _one_ country to change than for 100+, which
doesn't mean that I think it will happen.

So even though the result is chaos, the USA should follow along and
make it that much worse?

If the USA followed along it would no longer be chaos.

Yes, it would. In fact, it would be worse, because the DX would have
nowhere to hide.

Ask yourself this: Why do DX 'phones operate in the US CW/data
subbands at all if they can operate in the US 'phone subbands?


In the case of 40, it's to avoid BCI.

Maybe in Regions 1 and 3, but why in Region 2?

On the other bands, I think a lot of DX ops don't even know how far down
US hams can go on phone (although the serious DXers do).

I disagree. American hams are obvious by their absence. The DX goes
outside the US 'phone bands to avoid Yank QRM.

As I say, though,
I'm not holding my breath for that to happen.

800 is pretty high. 600-700 is more common among CW ops. The SSB
audio passband is typically 300-2700 Hz, so 600 or even 800 is
pretty low. 1500 would be smack in the middle.

True enough

This of course would be what you
would get if they netted onto the SSB and then offset by their
usual amount.

There is no offset in CW. The carriers are all on the same
frequency.

Point is that what sounds like "right on top" may not sound
that way to the other guy.

It depends which side of the nominal carrier frequency the CW
signal is on. However, assuming my SSB filter is working, I
would say they were low, i.e. on the same side as the LSB
sideband, or I would be filtering them out. This also puts them
almost in the middle of the SSB signal, doesn't it?

No. Their tone would be 1500 if it were in the middle.

Listen to a busy CW contest with a wide (AM bandwidth) rx and
it sounds like a pile of intentional inteference. Switch in
appropriate filters and you find that almost all of the
stations have spaced themselves so they don't overlap.

Neither am I
talking about weak phone stations, although they could be
weak at some other QTH.

That's another point.

Of course the DX 'phones could have switched to CW and
answered the CQers, then politely asked them to move.

But they didn't, did they?

I guess not.

*My Southgate Type 7 has two cascaded 8 pole 500 Hz crystal
filters, giving an effective bandwidth of less than 400 Hz
and very steep filter skirts. And it has an audio LC filter
as well.


So, if say, you called QRU? on 7080 and there was a strong
signal SSB QSO in progress, would you be able to tell? This
is a genuine question.

I would listen first and steer clear of anyhting that sounds
like SSB. Then I'd send "IE" a few times to test the waters.
If I heard something start up when I did that, I'd move.

But usually I am below 7060. Above about 7060 is data and
foreign SSB country.

I
don't posses a CW filter.

One of the reasons some hams get turned off to CW is that they
use equipment that really isn't meant for the mode. Most HF
rigs today are primarily SSB rigs with CW tacked on. Some are
pretty good, many are awful.


If I need it I have an outboard audio filter

Ugh. Audio filters are no substitute for IF filtering. And
unless the AGC is turned off, QRM can dominate the receiver.


True, but I don't really need a narrow CW filter for anything

Data modes.

If I ever get around to trying any

(a Radio Shack DSP unit,
which is fairly basic and suffers from low audio output). I
hadn't thought about that when I said I had no CW filter. It
tends to 'take off' on 20 with RF getting inside it, but it's OK
on 40.

What sort of rig?

I use an IC-729 in my shack. Excellent receiver RF performance.

Compared to what? No offense, but there are some really good rigs
out there.

The reviews at the time said it was comparable with anything
regardless of price bracket in _basic_ receiver performance, but
that was back in '92. I expect the world has moved on, and it never
was loaded with features.

You might want to compare it to more modern stuff. The Ten Tec and
Elecraft websites have various receiver performance measures of
different rigs, as actually measured.

What do you use, anyway?

My homebrew 100 watt transceiver and an Elecraft K2 built from a
kit.


I hope your K2 doesn't drift, unlike one that I heard on the bands.

It doesn't. I have had it for over two years now and it's done very
well.

Of
course, that may have been due to the person who put it together.

The classic problem with kits is that they are only as good as the
builder.

BTW, I just received the parts for my K5OOR linear.

Never heard of it. Any good?

We're supposed to call
it a project instead of a kit, HI.

That's because it's illegal to call it a kit. Thanks to misnehaving cb
and freeband folks.

Anyway, when I've built it, it will
amplify the output of my FT817 to 35 watts on 160-10. It will be pretty
small too, i.e. the FT817 plus the linear will still be much smaller and
lighter than the IC729.

But how many amps will the combo draw, transmit and receive? My K2
draws about 250 mills on receive.


Not very
good audio, though. Ironically it has nowhere to fit a narrow SSB
filter, but has a place for a CW filter (nothing in there, of
course).

Couldn't a narrow SSB filter be put in the CW slot?

Yes, but without making any further mods it would be selected when
the mode was set to 'CW-N'.

There must be a mod for it.

I haven't seen one so far, but you would think it could be done.

Be the first....

Maybe



Not the
Rolls Royce of radios, but I'm not overloaded with cash.

The Southgate Type 7 cost me less than $100 to build.

I am guessing you would hear something,though?

Depends on the situation. Usually SSB sounds like monkey
chatter through a narrow filter. But near the edges it can be
very weak or inaudible.

As I've explained, I think this is going on in the middle of the
SSB sigs, which is another reason to be suspicious

Sure. But 1500 is the middle, not 800.

The best solution is for wide and narrow modes to have their
own subbands. They simply don't mix well.

Yes

So when will the rest of the world get on the beam and have
nonphone subbands?

They do, and they have done as long as I remember. In some
countries they are voluntary, and in others they are compulsory,
but nowhere are they as wide as in the USA.

Time for them to get on the beam, then.

Depends what you mean - widen them or make them compulsory?

Both - just like the USA.

There is no
expansion of CW use to justify the former,

Yes, there is. Look at participation in contests as just one
measure. CW up, phone flat.


Contesters, the really serious kind, use whatever mode is specified in
the rules. If the rules said semaphore they'd learn that too.

Almost all contests have separate CW and 'phone weekends. (FD and ARRL
160 are the exceptions that prove the rule). The ham population can
choose to operate one, both, or neither. CW participation is UP while
'phone is flat.

That puzzles me.

It's a fact.

I honestly don't think it's due to new hams preferring
CW.

Why not? I know lots of new hams who prefer CW, once they get a
reasonable set of skills. That doesn't mean everyone will like it.

Maybe there are people who used to only contest on phone that are now
doing the CW leg as well.

Perhaps.

Or perhaps the declining sunspots and proven superior performance of
CW are drawing more hams to use it.

Perhaps the simple fact that CW is unique is the attraction.

Perhaps it's just the rising number of hams.

But the fact remains that for whatever reasons, HF CW USE by hams is
increasing in at least some measurable ways.

This fact puts the lie to the claim that "young people" and "new hams"
aren't interested in the mode. At least some of them are.


and most administrations don't
really care what hams do within the ham bands. I suspect that, for
example, Industry Canada don't even care about Canadian hams
annoying other Canadian hams by operating phone on CW frequencies.

Then you can expect more of the behavior you have complained about.


Perhaps

Count on it. Remember the story of the Tower of Babel?

I guess not.

73 de Jim, N2EY

"N2EY" wrote in message
om...
Alun Palmer wrote in message
. ..
Almost all contests have separate CW and 'phone weekends. (FD and ARRL
160 are the exceptions that prove the rule). The ham population can
choose to operate one, both, or neither. CW participation is UP while
'phone is flat.

That puzzles me.

It's a fact.

I honestly don't think it's due to new hams preferring
CW.

Why not? I know lots of new hams who prefer CW, once they get a
reasonable set of skills. That doesn't mean everyone will like it.


Work the next November Sweepstakes on the CW weekend. Since the year first
licensed is part of the exchange, you'll see that there are indeed some new
hams working CW. I worked it in 2001 (skipped 2002 due to OM's birthday
being that weekend) and there were people who had only been licensed a
couple of years out there working it.

Maybe there are people who used to only contest on phone that are now
doing the CW leg as well.

Perhaps.

Or perhaps the declining sunspots and proven superior performance of
CW are drawing more hams to use it.

Perhaps the simple fact that CW is unique is the attraction.

Perhaps it's just the rising number of hams.

But the fact remains that for whatever reasons, HF CW USE by hams is
increasing in at least some measurable ways.

This fact puts the lie to the claim that "young people" and "new hams"
aren't interested in the mode. At least some of them are.


It's probably a combination of all the above. However I've known several
new hams who are fascinated by the mode and see the CW contests as a way to
both master the mode and have fun.


Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

snip


Ask yourself this: Why do DX 'phones operate in the US CW/data
subbands at all if they can operate in the US 'phone subbands?


In the case of 40, it's to avoid BCI.

Maybe in Regions 1 and 3, but why in Region 2?

The BCI is pretty severe at night in the US, so hams in VE, for example,
who have available phone spectrum below 7100 are likely to use it.


On the other bands, I think a lot of DX ops don't even know how far
down US hams can go on phone (although the serious DXers do).

I disagree. American hams are obvious by their absence. The DX goes
outside the US 'phone bands to avoid Yank QRM.

Those of the DX who are not DXers are more likely oblivious

SNIP

The classic problem with kits is that they are only as good as the
builder.

BTW, I just received the parts for my K5OOR linear.

Never heard of it. Any good?

Hopefully. Quite a lot of people in HF Pack have built it, and I don't
hear much about problems with it.


We're supposed to call it a project instead of a kit, HI.

That's because it's illegal to call it a kit. Thanks to misnehaving cb
and freeband folks.

Anyway, when I've built it, it will
amplify the output of my FT817 to 35 watts on 160-10. It will be
pretty small too, i.e. the FT817 plus the linear will still be much
smaller and lighter than the IC729.

But how many amps will the combo draw, transmit and receive? My K2
draws about 250 mills on receive.

The Yaesu isn't as light on current as it ought to be for a portable rig.
With the linear, the current drain of the rig will pale into
insignificance anyway, at least on transmit. I'll try to look up some
actual figures, though. I don't backpack, although I often go camping in
tents, so I can bring a fairly large battery to power a linear.

I also use the FT-817 mobile. I would love to also own an FT-100 or an FT-
857 for mobile use, but my bank account dictates otherwise.

SNIP

Almost all contests have separate CW and 'phone weekends. (FD and
ARRL 160 are the exceptions that prove the rule). The ham population
can choose to operate one, both, or neither. CW participation is UP
while 'phone is flat.

That puzzles me.

It's a fact.

I honestly don't think it's due to new hams preferring
CW.

Why not? I know lots of new hams who prefer CW, once they get a
reasonable set of skills. That doesn't mean everyone will like it.

Maybe there are people who used to only contest on phone that are now
doing the CW leg as well.

Perhaps.

Or perhaps the declining sunspots and proven superior performance of
CW are drawing more hams to use it.


I can see that some contesters would switch, as they are pragmatic about
what mode they use provided they score points. With poor band conditions a
'smaller' station might be more competitive in the CW leg.

Perhaps the simple fact that CW is unique is the attraction.

Perhaps it's just the rising number of hams.

But the fact remains that for whatever reasons, HF CW USE by hams is
increasing in at least some measurable ways.

This fact puts the lie to the claim that "young people" and "new hams"
aren't interested in the mode. At least some of them are.

It depends how young. Often kids like CW.



and most administrations don't
really care what hams do within the ham bands. I suspect that,
for example, Industry Canada don't even care about Canadian hams
annoying other Canadian hams by operating phone on CW
frequencies.

Then you can expect more of the behavior you have complained
about.


Perhaps

Count on it. Remember the story of the Tower of Babel?

I guess not.

73 de Jim, N2EY

73 de Alun, N3KIP