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On 8 Aug 2003 10:12:11 -0700, N2EY wrote:
AMTOR is pretty much dead, I am told. Certainly not as popular as it once was, but I don't think it's entirely "dead." How many HF amateur AMTOR contacts have you or anyone you know made in the past year? Yet SITOR - the commercial version of AMTOR - is the standard HF mode of data communication in the maritime service. That, and not obscenenly-expensive satellite comms, is what killed maritime CW. The ship's purser or deck officers can pull up the preset HF transceiver channel and pound away, and even personal e-mail is now sent and received by a SITOR connection to AOL via Globe Wireless, the successor to RCA and ITT, via an AOL "kiosk" in the recreation areas. No Radio Officer needed. One of the San Francisco area marine radio techs, a ham, applied to the FCC to be able to offer PACTOR service in the marine bands, and after consulation with the ITU, his request was turned down because it was not an international standard and would not give that much improvement over SITOR considering the changes necessary. And the US Coast Guard and other similar agencies world-wide continue to transmit NAVTEX bulletins (marine broadcasts) on 518 kHz worldwide using SITOR. Of course what really drove all that was PC/soundcard setups becoming affordable. Agreed ... multimode with a std SSB radio and PC ... cool stuff. Yeah - I can tune SITOR by setting the (suppressed) carrier 2.2 kHz higher than the channel center and using LSB. Cheapie "FSK". Going to be "more easier" later on this week when my new Ten-Tec computer-tuned DSP HF receiver arrives, and I can set the filtering to just where I want it. I'm not throwing my AMTOR/SITOR TNCs away just yet. Sort of. But it's actually a patch job. One reason packet is stuck at 1200 baud all these years is because going faster would require a purpose-built data radio. Ikensu isn't going to do it unless there's a proven market, and the failure of 9600 to get much attention means they will wait some more. Hey, we know that we can get at least 28K or more in a standard audio channel. But hams are cheap - nobody (including me) wants to throw away existing 1200 baud radios and TNCs that work really well for the type of canned messages that we get on packet, unless they are super-whizzes at Qualcom, with due appolgies to Phil Karn who fits that description and has done a LOT for digital ham radio specifically and whom I admire greatly. -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon |
In article , "Phil Kane"
writes: On 8 Aug 2003 10:12:11 -0700, N2EY wrote: AMTOR is pretty much dead, I am told. Certainly not as popular as it once was, but I don't think it's entirely "dead." How many HF amateur AMTOR contacts have you or anyone you know made in the past year? Yet SITOR - the commercial version of AMTOR - is the standard HF mode of data communication in the maritime service. That, and not obscenenly-expensive satellite comms, is what killed maritime CW. Wasn't maritime MF Morse capability mandatory until the satellite based distress system came online? The ship's purser or deck officers can pull up the preset HF transceiver channel and pound away, and even personal e-mail is now sent and received by a SITOR connection to AOL via Globe Wireless, the successor to RCA and ITT, via an AOL "kiosk" in the recreation areas. No Radio Officer needed. Sure. And the reason all that happened was that the shipping companies decided to make the inital investment in SITOR equipment, and pay for it with the salaries of the laid-off radio officers. And as long as the SITOR equipment does the job and costs less per year, there will be no reason to replace it with something better. One of the San Francisco area marine radio techs, a ham, applied to the FCC to be able to offer PACTOR service in the marine bands, and after consulation with the ITU, his request was turned down because it was not an international standard and would not give that much improvement over SITOR considering the changes necessary. Exactly - the improvement was judged to be not worth the investment. Since decisions like this are made at the top and conformity is deemed more important than what people *want* to do, the existing system is kept. Which is why you can watch a 2003 TV show on a 50+ year old TV receiver. NTSC, anyway. And the US Coast Guard and other similar agencies world-wide continue to transmit NAVTEX bulletins (marine broadcasts) on 518 kHz worldwide using SITOR. Using a system that is almost completely automated. Of course what really drove all that was PC/soundcard setups becoming affordable. Agreed ... multimode with a std SSB radio and PC ... cool stuff. Yeah - I can tune SITOR by setting the (suppressed) carrier 2.2 kHz higher than the channel center and using LSB. Cheapie "FSK". Going to be "more easier" later on this week when my new Ten-Tec computer-tuned DSP HF receiver arrives, and I can set the filtering to just where I want it. bwaahaahaa I'm not throwing my AMTOR/SITOR TNCs away just yet. But how much AMTOR will be found in the HF ham bands today? I daresay not much. In fact you'll probably find more 60 wpm Baudot RTTY on the ham bands in the course of a year than you will find AMTOR. (if you count contests). Sort of. But it's actually a patch job. One reason packet is stuck at 1200 baud all these years is because going faster would require a purpose-built data radio. Ikensu isn't going to do it unless there's a proven market, and the failure of 9600 to get much attention means they will wait some more. Hey, we know that we can get at least 28K or more in a standard audio channel. Sure - if the channel's characteristics are good enough. There's also the question of what FCC will allow in symbol rate and such. But hams are cheap - nobody (including me) wants to throw away existing 1200 baud radios and TNCs that work really well for the type of canned messages that we get on packet, unless they are super-whizzes at Qualcom, with due appolgies to Phil Karn who fits that description and has done a LOT for digital ham radio specifically and whom I admire greatly. I disagree with hams being "cheap". It's more a matter of not being able to write off expenditures. Businesses can depreciate equipment - hams can't. They can also pay for equipment out of reduced labor and repair cost - hams can't. Engineering economics 101. 73 de Jim, N2EY |
Len Over 21 wrote:
In article , "Carl R. Stevenson" writes: "N2EY" wrote in message . com... "Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message ... "N2EY" wrote in message ... Now you're trying to tell us that incentive licensing PROMOTED growth in ham radio??? I don't think so ... More likely the boom after WWII (and Korea) was due to military radio folks becoming hams when they got out ... Now, now. Rev. Jimmie LIVED THOSE TIMES. He KNOWS. :-) You've told us about morse landline telegraphy. Did you LIVE THOSE TIMES? Do you KNOW? Maybe you read it in a BOOK or saw an article on the WEB. :-) The boom in the 60's was probably due to the emergence of economical JA radios, a general increase in the interest in electronics, and later, the emergence of VHF/UHF FM and repeaters ... Incorrect. There was no boom of JA radios in the 1960's. It's difficult for even old-timers to understand a postwar boom period and the Cold War getting hotter when they've just reached First Grade. :-) I don't know about when you were in school, Len. They provided us history books. Most of us figured out that there was additional historical material available. :-) :-) The holier-than-thou old-timers insist on the "no-coders" to do all the technical advancements in amateur radio. Never mind that they weren't able to do much in a half century. :-) What's it to you? You aren't involved. If you're to make any technical advancements in amateur radio, you'd better get cracking. You've wasted decades talking about "getting into" amateur radio. :-) The holier-than-thou old-timers won't hear of "being nice" to newcomers. They have achieved TITLE, STATUS, Rank and Privelege and can sign their callsign behind their names (just like nobility). They are Very Important exhalted People who are "superior!" Love your "fox and the grapes" routine. You got the callsign and privilege portion partially correct. Nobility suffers the peasantry, poor things. In this game, you aren't nobility and you aren't a peasant. You're an onlooker. Dave K8MN |
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In article , Dave Heil
writes: Len Over 21 wrote: In article , "Carl R. Stevenson" writes: "N2EY" wrote in message . com... "Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message ... "N2EY" wrote in message ... Now you're trying to tell us that incentive licensing PROMOTED growth in ham radio??? I don't think so ... More likely the boom after WWII (and Korea) was due to military radio folks becoming hams when they got out ... Now, now. Rev. Jimmie LIVED THOSE TIMES. He KNOWS. :-) You've told us about morse landline telegraphy. Did you LIVE THOSE TIMES? Do you KNOW? Maybe you read it in a BOOK or saw an article on the WEB. :-) Irrelevant. No one in here lived in 1844 when morse code was first used in commercial landline communications. No one in here lived when Marconi did his first radio communications in Switzerland in 1895, or proved in Italy in 1896...using morse code for on-off keying of a spark transmitter. No one in here lived when the Titanic went down and mighty morse code managed to get through for rescuing some...morse code could get through because there was NOTHING ELSE to compare it with. Try reading a BOOK on the REST of the world of radio instead of what if spoon-fed you by the little publisher in Newington. You might find out that the REST OF THE RADIO WORLD has gone beyond amateurism. There is NO need in the rest of the radio world for DX contesting or morsemanship skills or collecting QSL cards. The boom in the 60's was probably due to the emergence of economical JA radios, a general increase in the interest in electronics, and later, the emergence of VHF/UHF FM and repeaters ... Incorrect. There was no boom of JA radios in the 1960's. Of course not. Hallicrafters, National Radio, RME, Collins were all having terrific sales, snowing the amateur market with ham gear. Right. Sure. Where are they now? Collins quit the ham market long ago. Hallicrafters folded or something even longer ago. National Radio went for the military electronics stuff quitting ham radio sales. Even Heathkit went belly-up. Are you in some kind of dream world where you think Yaesu, Icom, Kenwood, and JRC are "American" companies?!?!? It's difficult for even old-timers to understand a postwar boom period and the Cold War getting hotter when they've just reached First Grade. :-) I don't know about when you were in school, Len. They provided us history books. Most of us figured out that there was additional historical material available. :-) :-) Paper, moveable type, and the printing press were all invented LONG before 1844 and the first use of commercial morse code communications. I was a working radio professional in 1952 when the Cold War was already started. Are you saying your holiness as a school boy has MORE experience in Cold War life?!?!? The holier-than-thou old-timers insist on the "no-coders" to do all the technical advancements in amateur radio. Never mind that they weren't able to do much in a half century. :-) What's it to you? Stuff it, Colonel Klunk. You aren't involved. If you're to make any technical advancements in amateur radio, you'd better get cracking. Stuff it twice. YOU are NOT a judge. You are NOT an official who can "run" the US amateur radio community. You are NOT in government anymore and were NEVER a radio regulator at the FCC. I've had a successful career in PROFESSIONAL radio-electronics and still enjoy that in retirement. Radio-electronics has been a fun hobby for me for a longer time. Now tell us, great big four-decade experienced AMATEUR radio god, what have YOU ever done to "advance amateur radio?!?" Show us your patents, your marvelous discoveries, all your important technical contributions. You've had FORTY YEARS of amateurism and all you can come up with is trying to put down folks in an amateur newsgroup?!? In this game, you aren't nobility and you aren't a peasant. You're an onlooker. That's all you are, big radio god of the AMATEUR bands. A hot-air balloon who plays with ready-built radios and talks tuff as a newsgroupie. Get a better life. LHA |
Len Over 21 wrote:
In article , Dave Heil writes: Len Over 21 wrote: In article , "Carl R. Stevenson" writes: "N2EY" wrote in message . com... "Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message ... "N2EY" wrote in message ... Now you're trying to tell us that incentive licensing PROMOTED growth in ham radio??? I don't think so ... More likely the boom after WWII (and Korea) was due to military radio folks becoming hams when they got out ... Now, now. Rev. Jimmie LIVED THOSE TIMES. He KNOWS. :-) You've told us about morse landline telegraphy. Did you LIVE THOSE TIMES? Do you KNOW? Maybe you read it in a BOOK or saw an article on the WEB. :-) Irrelevant. No one in here lived in 1844 when morse code was first used in commercial landline communications. No one in here lived when Marconi did his first radio communications in Switzerland in 1895, or proved in Italy in 1896...using morse code for on-off keying of a spark transmitter. No one in here lived when the Titanic went down and mighty morse code managed to get through for rescuing some...morse code could get through because there was NOTHING ELSE to compare it with. What I wrote was precisely relevant. You wrote of someone's having not been alive when something took place. I pointed out that you weren't alive during some of the things which you've pontificated on in this venue. Try reading a BOOK on the REST of the world of radio instead of what if spoon-fed you by the little publisher in Newington. "YOU have NO authority to call anyone anything, demean them, make fun of them, or anything else...yet YOU continue to do so. That indicates the perversity of your control-freak psychosis." --Leonard H. Anderson You might find out that the REST OF THE RADIO WORLD has gone beyond amateurism. What the hell are you prattling about? There is NO need in the rest of the radio world for DX contesting or morsemanship skills or collecting QSL cards. Did you have a point? The boom in the 60's was probably due to the emergence of economical JA radios, a general increase in the interest in electronics, and later, the emergence of VHF/UHF FM and repeaters ... Incorrect. There was no boom of JA radios in the 1960's. Of course not. Hallicrafters, National Radio, RME, Collins were all having terrific sales, snowing the amateur market with ham gear. Right. Sure. Where are they now? Collins quit the ham market long ago. Hallicrafters folded or something even longer ago. National Radio went for the military electronics stuff quitting ham radio sales. Even Heathkit went belly-up. Are you in some kind of dream world where you think Yaesu, Icom, Kenwood, and JRC are "American" companies?!?!? You certainly wrote a large number of diversionary words to cover your gaffe. There was no boom of Japanese ham gear in the 1960's. Is it clear now? It's difficult for even old-timers to understand a postwar boom period and the Cold War getting hotter when they've just reached First Grade. :-) I don't know about when you were in school, Len. They provided us history books. Most of us figured out that there was additional historical material available. :-) :-) Paper, moveable type, and the printing press were all invented LONG before 1844 and the first use of commercial morse code communications. I was a working radio professional in 1952 when the Cold War was already started. Are you saying your holiness as a school boy has MORE experience in Cold War life?!?!? Why no, Len, not as a school boy. I certainly have more governmental communications experience during the cold war. The holier-than-thou old-timers insist on the "no-coders" to do all the technical advancements in amateur radio. Never mind that they weren't able to do much in a half century. :-) What's it to you? Stuff it, Colonel Klunk. You aren't involved. If you're to make any technical advancements in amateur radio, you'd better get cracking. Stuff it twice. YOU are NOT a judge. You are NOT an official who can "run" the US amateur radio community. You are NOT in government anymore and were NEVER a radio regulator at the FCC. It doesn't take a regulator to truthfully state that you weren't involved and are not involved in amateur radio. Don't tell me what I am to amateur radio. I'm a licensed ham and have been for decades. You, quite truthfully are not involved at all in amateur radio. You aren't a judge of what hams do or have done. You are not a regulator. I've had a successful career in PROFESSIONAL radio-electronics and still enjoy that in retirement. Radio-electronics has been a fun hobby for me for a longer time. Trust me. Things have a way of evening out. Now tell us, great big four-decade experienced AMATEUR radio god, what have YOU ever done to "advance amateur radio?!?" No, I don't believe I will, Len. Show us your patents, your marvelous discoveries, all your important technical contributions. Still have your patent fetish? You've had FORTY YEARS of amateurism and all you can come up with is trying to put down folks in an amateur newsgroup?!? Folks? Well, there's you. Then again, you aren't a ham. You're just a groupie. In this game, you aren't nobility and you aren't a peasant. You're an onlooker. That's all you are, big radio god of the AMATEUR bands. You've got it wrong, Len. I have a license and have had it for decades. I make contacts via amateur radio daily. I'm a participant in amateur radio. I don't issue catcalls from the sidelines. The guy who does that is you. A hot-air balloon who plays with ready-built radios and talks tuff as a newsgroupie. Why, Len, you're the wanna-be. Get a better life. I'm quite happy with this one, Len. Yours seems to be a little lacking in light of your ham radio envy. Dave K8MN |
In article , Mike Coslo
writes: N2EY wrote: In article , "Carl R. Stevenson" writes: What WILL be the end of ham radio is a lack of significant growth ... Let's get it straight - is dropping Element 1 going to give us lots more growth or not? I don't understand a few of the things Carl says here. That we will dissapear unless we get "significant growth". There are more US hams today than at any time in the past. What exactly is that? a 100 percent increase in a day? increase at 1 percent over population increase? That's what I've been asking. I'd like to know the advances they will bring. Similar to what newcomers have always brought. I want to hear how those who oppose the ending of the Morse code requirement are keeping ham radio from marching forward. Time for the roadmap to the future to be laid out. Don't hold yer breath waiting;-) Or is this like the last scene in "The Candidate"? Refresh my memory on that one, Mike. I find it amusing that even though the PCTA's have lost the war, that those who brought this to bear cannot avoid smacking us around a little bit yet. It might be fun, but isn't doing anyone a bit of good. What "war"? FCC has been pushing for nocodetest since 1975. They've been nibbling away at both the code and written tests since then. Gloat time is over. Your time has come. You now have the chance to prove that you were right. And browbeating the losers isn't a very good start. Maybe we'll see a lot of newcomers and technoadvances after the code test goes. And maybe we won't. Personally, I don't think we'll see either. If that happens, what will be blamed for the ARS' perceived problems?? A few other countries have dumped code testing. More are on the way to it. It will be interesting to see what happens in those countries. Sorry to hijack the thread, Jim! You didn't hijack anything. 73 de Jim, N2EY |
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