In article , "Clint" rattlehead at
computron dot net writes:

Outside of sounding like low-grade bull****, that "reason" could be
taken
as wanting a government WELFARE program to preserve morse code.

If morsemanship is so damn much fun, easy to learn, etc., then it can
be done WITHOUT needing the subsistence of any federal testing.

That was my EXACT point in an earlier post.... I was told by a certain
PCTA type that "it won't exist anymore unless we force it on everybody"...
well, heh, according to darwin and also the free market, the most fit
survive and the free market, left to run the course as it will in and of
its own needs will result in the best suited result.

Clint:

The so-called "free market" is VERY highly regulated all over the globe.
About the only thing most business entrepreneurs are "free" to do these
days is to strictly comply with regulations telling them what they can
sell, how they can sell it, and whom they can sell it to. Code testing
doesn't even come close to being the same thing, particularly since
the Technician's license gives a ham 97% of all available amateur
radio operating privileges without a hint of a code test.

If you have to MAKE it happen, then it isn't making it on it's own
merit.

Fine. Then let's get rid of any and all testing in schools at every
educational level. After all, all those tests only "force" students to
demonstrate academic achievement, don't they? That's "making"
an education happen, so we can't have that, can we?

social engineering.
it's affirmative action for CW; it's as you said, a welfare program for
it....

Don't look now, Clint, but welfare programs are "handouts" that give
away valuable assets as if the recipient were entitled to them simply
by virtue of being there with his/her hand out. It is the NCTA that
wants a welfare program, not the PCTA.

One of the classic NCTA whines. Us horrible old PCTA's want to keep
Morse code going so that we can continue to demonstrate the dominance
of the white, middle-class, American male, who represents 5% of the
world's population yet consumes 25% of the planet's resources,

and ALSO produces 33% of the worlds economic output, to the tune
of 11 TRILLION dollars out of the 33 trillion sum total of all nations.

Just to keep the record straight.

So what's your problem, then?

73 de Larry, K3LT

In article , "Kim W5TIT"
writes:

Not necessarilly. If one knows the ingredients of pizza, they do not have
to eat it to know whether they would like it or not.

Kim:

Just out of curiosity, what ARE the ingredients of a pizza?

I love pizza but hate tomatoes, cheese, and garlic. Yet
combine them into a pizza and the result is entirely different. No one
can
tell how a cake will taste simply from reading the ingredients on a box.

Unless, of course, that particular cake is made with tomatoes, cheese,
and garlic -- then you, by your own admission, would have a prejudiced
notion of it's taste. And, if the cake was made from scratch, one may
not have a box from which to read the list of ingredients. Then, the
only way to judge the cake's taste would be through direct, personal
experience. I'm sure more cakes are judged in this manner than by
any analysis of the ingredient list.

Depends.

Eouuuuuu!!! I wouldn't want to make a cake or a pizza out of them!

If it's a chocolate cake and we know that we can't *really* taste
the eggs (I can't stand eggs), then I'm pretty sure I'd like a chocolate
cake.

Have you ever tasted a cake (of any flavour) made *without* eggs?
I'm pretty sure you could tell the difference.

You can evaluate its nutritional content but not its taste. So while
there
are some things that do not need to be experienced to evaluate them, there
are other things that do.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE


I think you're grabbing at straws, Dee.

No, Kim, actually she is quite correct. Personal experience *does* give
us a better ability to evaluate things and formulate judgments for or
against them. While non-participatory analysis of the parts of the whole
may lead us to draw some certain conclusions, those conclusions would
tend to then be colored by our prejudices for or against any one component,
such as eggs, cheese, or tomatoes. Only when the whole concept is
brought together into the sum of it's parts, and experienced by a truly
qualified and objective person who doesn't have an agenda to either be
for or against the result, can a fair and credible judgement be made.
This applies equally to cake, pizza, and Morse code testing within the
ARS. It is not "grasping at straws."

73 de Larry, K3LT

"Clint" rattlehead at computron dot net wrote in message
...

No my analogy is quite correct. To determine the worth of pizza, you
must
eat to see if it is a food worth your bother. Knowing the ingredients
will
not tell you that.

here's a more accurate anology....

"You can't possibly know anything about pizza, and i'm telling you that
it's an important staple to you diet. Your opinion means nothing; I
am now pointing the gun of licenseing system at your head and
ORDERING you to take a bite of the pizza, I am not worried
one bit about what the facts are or what the market wants... I am
going to see to it that everybody is force fed pizza whether they
like it or not."


I and other parents that I know have always required our children to eat
foods that are good for them whether they liked them or not. My children
have always been required to eat what was served whether they liked it or
not. Children were not allowed to dictate the menu.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Man, this keeps getting better and better....

"Dee D. Flint" wrote

I and other parents that I know have always required our children to eat
foods that are good for them whether they liked them or not. My children
have always been required to eat what was served whether they liked it or
not. Children were not allowed to dictate the menu.

This, on top of Roll's admissions, couldn't make the PCTA's position
and attitude any plainer, to even a casual observer.



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.520 / Virus Database: 318 - Release Date: 9/19/2003

Dee D. Flint wrote:
"Clint" rattlehead at computron dot net wrote in message
...

No my analogy is quite correct. To determine the worth of pizza, you

must

eat to see if it is a food worth your bother. Knowing the ingredients

will

not tell you that.

here's a more accurate anology....

"You can't possibly know anything about pizza, and i'm telling you that
it's an important staple to you diet. Your opinion means nothing; I
am now pointing the gun of licenseing system at your head and
ORDERING you to take a bite of the pizza, I am not worried
one bit about what the facts are or what the market wants... I am
going to see to it that everybody is force fed pizza whether they
like it or not."



I and other parents that I know have always required our children to eat
foods that are good for them whether they liked them or not. My children
have always been required to eat what was served whether they liked it or
not. Children were not allowed to dictate the menu.

Oh how cruel! Dee, you are a meanie. You are stunting your kids
emotional growth and forcing them to do something they don't want to. NO
one should be forced to do something they don't want to be it Morse Code
or eating foods that are good for them. - end of being facetious.

How about NBI - NO Broccoli International?

- Mike KB3EIA -

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...
Dee D. Flint wrote:
"Clint" rattlehead at computron dot net wrote in message
...

No my analogy is quite correct. To determine the worth of pizza, you

must

eat to see if it is a food worth your bother. Knowing the ingredients

will

not tell you that.

here's a more accurate anology....

"You can't possibly know anything about pizza, and i'm telling you that
it's an important staple to you diet. Your opinion means nothing; I
am now pointing the gun of licenseing system at your head and
ORDERING you to take a bite of the pizza, I am not worried
one bit about what the facts are or what the market wants... I am
going to see to it that everybody is force fed pizza whether they
like it or not."



I and other parents that I know have always required our children to eat
foods that are good for them whether they liked them or not. My
children
have always been required to eat what was served whether they liked it
or
not. Children were not allowed to dictate the menu.

Oh how cruel! Dee, you are a meanie. You are stunting your kids
emotional growth and forcing them to do something they don't want to. NO
one should be forced to do something they don't want to be it Morse Code
or eating foods that are good for them. - end of being facetious.

How about NBI - NO Broccoli International?

- Mike KB3EIA -


I LIKE broccoli. Let's make it NO Peas International.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Dee D. Flint wrote:
"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...

Dee D. Flint wrote:

"Clint" rattlehead at computron dot net wrote in message
...


No my analogy is quite correct. To determine the worth of pizza, you

must


eat to see if it is a food worth your bother. Knowing the ingredients

will


not tell you that.

here's a more accurate anology....

"You can't possibly know anything about pizza, and i'm telling you that
it's an important staple to you diet. Your opinion means nothing; I
am now pointing the gun of licenseing system at your head and
ORDERING you to take a bite of the pizza, I am not worried
one bit about what the facts are or what the market wants... I am
going to see to it that everybody is force fed pizza whether they
like it or not."



I and other parents that I know have always required our children to eat
foods that are good for them whether they liked them or not. My

children

have always been required to eat what was served whether they liked it

or

not. Children were not allowed to dictate the menu.

Oh how cruel! Dee, you are a meanie. You are stunting your kids
emotional growth and forcing them to do something they don't want to. NO
one should be forced to do something they don't want to be it Morse Code
or eating foods that are good for them. - end of being facetious.

How about NBI - NO Broccoli International?

- Mike KB3EIA -



I LIKE broccoli.

Me too actually.

Let's make it NO Peas International.

Pretty Peas?

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

I LIKE broccoli.

Me too actually.

Make that three.

Let's make it NO Peas International.

Pretty Peas?

Peas are great!

Green beans, on the other hand.....

--

And if ya really want to get people fired up:

Calves' liver, anyone?

73 de Jim, N2EY

I and other parents that I know have always required our children to eat
foods that are good for them whether they liked them or not.

and that's fine for children.

Funny, I thought we were talking about ADULT hams.

Clint
KB5ZHT

"Clint" rattlehead at computron dot net wrote in message
...


I and other parents that I know have always required our children to eat
foods that are good for them whether they liked them or not.

and that's fine for children.

Funny, I thought we were talking about ADULT hams.

Clint
KB5ZHT



The same applies to students of all ages. When an adult goes to college,
they can select which area that they are going to get a degree in. Once
they make the selection, they have no choice in the basic classes only in
the electives that follow the basic classes. For example, all the
engineering curricula at the university I attended required all engineering
students to take a basic electrical engineering class. If I had not taken
it, I would have been denied my degree. Well in my engineering career, I
have yet to use that material since I am not an electrical engineer.

So a person can choose to be a ham (i.e. choose to be a mechanical
engineer). They cannot choose which material is required to be a ham (or
mechanical engineer). The curriculum has to be set by an experienced
person.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

In article , "Dee D. Flint"
writes:

I and other parents that I know have always required our children to eat
foods that are good for them whether they liked them or not. My children
have always been required to eat what was served whether they liked it or
not. Children were not allowed to dictate the menu.

...and so you act like you are the "parent" in here telling us what we
are supposed to like?

LHA

In article , ospam
(Larry Roll K3LT) writes:

In article ,
(Len Over 21) writes:

Dwight, if Larrah had to do it, EVERYBODY has to do it.

Except YOU, Lennie. YOU never do anything but whine!

I prefer a rose' with elaborate dinners, not the common table grappa in
a peasant cottage.

Sonny, I've probably done MORE in radio already than you've done in
your entire "career" as a hambone...er Ham.

You have PLAYED for years at ham radio, using ready-made
equipment, not really understanding what goes on behind your
ready-made front panels. Where are YOUR accomplishments in
amateur radio, your name posted as anywhere involving advancing
anything of the amateur state of the art? On FIDONET? Words,
self-glorifying yourself. On this newsgroup? More words, more
self-glorifying of yourself...plus an extreme amount of patronizing
"I am your moral superior" preacher without a church.

Yes, without a church. Up in Newington you couldn't be "honored"
when you showed up at their door so you upbraided ARRL for not
treating you as royalty. The Church of St. Hiram rejected you!

(snip) You have not had that mode's unique benefits
and advantages proved to you over and over again through
years of daily OTA use. I have. (snip)

Again, this is not about Morse Code/CW use - it's about the code test
requirement. I can have that operational experience without a test
requirement and you can continue to enjoy the "mode's unique benefits and
advantages" long after the testing requirement is gone.

Larrah can't grasp the theological import of that clear and concise idea.
He is a self-professed "true believer" and cannot see ANY other religious
idea but his old cult status.

Well, at least I'm a True Believer in something useful, unlike Lennie,
who only "believes" in sitting on the sidelines, throwing rotten apples
at those who are acquiring and utilizing useful communications skills.

Poor baby...someone threw a rotten apple at you and its worm also
turned on you?

Sonny, you've had your morse blinders on so long you can't understand
what others are saying, have said, and explained to you in detail.

Manual radiotelegraphy is NOT a "useful communications skill" anymore
unless you are a cult morseodist. Morse code is in its 159th year as a
slow, often error-prone technically simplistic communications tool. Only
a minority of amateurs use it. Morsemen are required at each radio
circuit end to make it effective at all.

I learned several kinds of RTTY and TTY over a half century ago and USED
them...including one that had 4 TTY circuits on the same FSK transmitter.
You think Martinez' PSK31 is "new and revolutionary?" Fine. Enjoy it, but
it is an innovation intended for real-time AMATEUR teletypewriting, not as
a state-of-the-art telecommunications method. I've set up and done 9600
Baud over a high HF circuit that all the nearby amateurs scoffed and
refused to believe when it worked successfully.

I've done far more modes/types of radio circuit modulation than is allocated
to amateurs and am engaged in some DTV test work at the moment. No
DTV is yet allocated to amateur bands. You've not done "matched filter"
multichannel since that isn't allowed in ham bands either...takes too long
to explain it to you so I won't bother...you've not shown you can handle
Ohm's Law successfully, let alone understand a cosine-squared pulse
shape.

Sonny, I've done radio communications from land in many places, from the
air while in a cockpit as well as cabin, on HF from the cabin of a moored
sailboat...the latter just a few months ago. NDAs forbid my mentioning
more, but you wouldn't understand the principles anyway. All kinds of
neat, new things, including not mentionable due to Title 18 USC.

At NO time was there ever any need to use morse code or demonstrate
morsemanship to successfully communicate. Not in a half century of
work that began with 24/7 primary communications service over HF trans-
Pacific. Never. Nada. Nyet. Nicht. No morsemanship needed at any
time.

Any you've done what? Playing with your radios, doing your beeping thing
the same as what was done by amateurs a half century ago or a full
century ago? What kind of "new technology" is on-off keying code use?
Who are you trying to fool other than children, fool?

LHA

Dick Carroll; wrote:


Dee D. Flint wrote:

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...

snippage


Oh how cruel! Dee, you are a meanie. You are stunting your kids
emotional growth and forcing them to do something they don't want to. NO
one should be forced to do something they don't want to be it Morse Code
or eating foods that are good for them. - end of being facetious.

How about NBI - NO Broccoli International?

- Mike KB3EIA -




I LIKE broccoli. Let's make it NO Peas International.




No, let's go with Brussels Sprouts. No-BS-I??? Yeah, that's it!!

Hehe, Good one, Dick!

- Mike KB3EIA -

N2EY wrote:
In article , Mike Coslo
writes:


I LIKE broccoli.

Me too actually.


Make that three.

Let's make it NO Peas International.

Pretty Peas?


Peas are great!

Green beans, on the other hand.....

--

And if ya really want to get people fired up:

Calves' liver, anyone?

Like 'em all so far.

Okra maybe? Snot wrapped inside a vegatable, that one.

- Mike KB3EIA -

The same applies to students of all ages. When an adult goes to college,

and wasn't it pointed out in an earlier post in this, or another, thread
that
electrical engineering students aren't required to learn morse code?

hmmmmmm.....

Clint
KB5ZHT

Sonny, I've probably done MORE in radio already than you've done in
your entire "career" as a hambone...er Ham.


oh, i'm just DIEING to see if he dares say something like "you can't know
everything I know and how far i've come and where i've been"... oh,
that's going to be just TOO juicy... bet he does though!

Clint
KB5ZHT

"Clint" rattlehead at computron dot net wrote in message
...

The same applies to students of all ages. When an adult goes to
college,

and wasn't it pointed out in an earlier post in this, or another, thread
that
electrical engineering students aren't required to learn morse code?

hmmmmmm.....

Clint
KB5ZHT

Your incorrect usage of snippage really hurts your comments. My point was
to show that adults are often required to meet standards set by people who
are experienced in their field of choice. This means taking courses in
college for example, that the student may never use. This is similar to
requiring hams to take and pass code tests.

Electrical engineering is not ham radio. Although they don't study code,
all of them have to take subjects in which they have no interest and will
never use otherwise they don't get the degree.

Adults are required to do things they don't want to on a regular basis.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"Larry Roll K3LT" wrote:

Perhaps, but the accuracy of those judgments are
definitely affected by having had those experiences,
or not. Someone who has never experienced a
house fire, a terrorist attack, life under a tyrannical
dictator, or a business failure is certainly capable
of making the entirely incorrect judgment about any
of the above. (snip)


Gladly, we don't live in a trial and error world today. I would hope the
bridge designer would have enough knowledge to build a safe bridge without
having to watch one (perhaps this one) fall down first. People can learn
about the specifics of a subject without personally experiencing every
aspect of it. We generally trust that system for a great many things in this
world today (for example, the bridges we routinely drive over).


I do not disagree. However, experience has shown
that people who aren't required to be code tested
usually don't bother to learn and use the Morse
code, so the issue does relate to code use, only to
the extent that the lack of a requirement would tend
to cause a decline in the use of the Morse/CW mode
in the fullness of time.


If that were true, I think a test requirement is the worst way to
accomplish what you're seeking. Instead, a better solution is to find ways
to attract new people to that aspect of ham radio. You're obviously not
going to have much success with that effort today because "no coders" have
made their choice about code while focusing solely on the license
requirement (the license requirement dominates the issue in their minds).
Later, when that license requirement is gone, the mode itself becomes the
focus. At that point, I think many more will be interested in taking a
second look at code. Obviously, there is no way for me to prove that now,
but I just have a feeling about this (perhaps the same way you have a
feeling about the above).


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"Larry Roll K3LT" wrote:

Dwight, unless and until you can show us just exactly
WHERE the ARS's code testing requirement ***IS***
relevant OUTSIDE of the ARS, all you're doing is
blowing smoke. And not very dense smoke at that.


It isn't relevant to anything outside the Amateur Radio today, Larry.
That's exactly why there are efforts being made to eliminate the Morse Code
test requirement. Those efforts extend throughout the world, including the
recent ITU vote to allow more flexibility on this issue.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

In article ,
(Len Over 21) writes:

In article , "Dee D.
Flint"
writes:

I and other parents that I know have always required our children to eat
foods that are good for them whether they liked them or not. My children
have always been required to eat what was served whether they liked it or
not. Children were not allowed to dictate the menu.

...and so you act like you are the "parent" in here telling us what we
are supposed to like?

Well, considering how often you act like a small child in here, Leonard, you're
certainly not qualified for that role.

In article , "Clint" rattlehead at
computron dot net writes:

Sonny, I've probably done MORE in radio already than you've done in
your entire "career" as a hambone...er Ham.


oh, i'm just DIEING to see if he dares say something like "you can't know
everything I know and how far i've come and where i've been"... oh,
that's going to be just TOO juicy... bet he does though!

Why should he? The person who wrote:

"Sonny, I've probably done MORE in radio already than you've done in
your entire "career" as a hambone...er Ham."

already has.

"Larry Roll K3LT" wrote:
"Dwight writes:
Again, code testing is not, and never has been, solely for
the benefit of Amateur Radio (or solely to benefit CW
operations on those bands). (snip)

I see. Then perhaps you can tell us how it "benefits"
photography, cooking, stamp collecting, or any other
activity which isn't Amateur Radio?

(snip)

And, once again, you fail to mention who or what is
benefited by it, if not the ARS. Please provide an answer,
or quite wasting our time with this illogical statement.


Larry, I know you are not so dumb as to not know how Morse Code/CW has fit
into the history of Amateur Radio and how Amateur Radio has fit into the
other radio services throughout that history. Knowing that, your request
above could only be considered factitious. Therefore, I will treat it as
such.


(snip) And, since everything I'm discussing here is related
ONLY to the Amateur Radio Service, that's the only group
of Morse/CW users who are being considered by me in any
of my postings. (snip)


Well, that may be what you're discussing, but I'm discussing Morse Code
testing - a discussion which, by it's very nature, cannot be limited to just
Amateur Radio. However, if the discussion were limited to just Amateur
Radio, your arguments would have no more weight since most ham operators
today don't use code/cw on any routine or regular basis. There is little
reason to maintain testing for a mode that is seldom used by more than a
relatively small minority.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

In article , "Dee D. Flint"
writes:

"Clint" rattlehead at computron dot net wrote in message
...

The same applies to students of all ages. When an adult goes to
college,

and wasn't it pointed out in an earlier post in this, or another, thread
that
electrical engineering students aren't required to learn morse code?

hmmmmmm.....

Clint
KB5ZHT

Your incorrect usage of snippage really hurts your comments. My point was
to show that adults are often required to meet standards set by people who
are experienced in their field of choice. This means taking courses in
college for example, that the student may never use. This is similar to
requiring hams to take and pass code tests.

Newsflash: The FCC was NEVER chartered as an educational
organization and the US amateur radio test is NOT an academic
achievement.

Electrical engineering is not ham radio.

Not quite the right wording. Make it: Ham radio is NOT anywhere close
to electrical engineering.

Although they don't study code,
all of them have to take subjects in which they have no interest and will
never use otherwise they don't get the degree.

Mommy DEErest, I was USING engineering knowledge at work well
before I got my electronic engineering degree. It made classes (most
at night) much easier.

I did run into one instructor of the "Prussian General Officer" type
who adamantly insisted, in a class on digital logic, that "there is NO
such thing as an Exclusive-Or gate." I brought in a quad Ex-Or made
by Texas Instruments and showed him. "We will NOT have that in
MY class!" he ordered.

This instructor of Asian ancestry was young and had NOT worked in
the electronics industry on any digital logic design. Yet, we in the
class were not able to use a simple low-level logic device that had
been made for over 15 years at that time. I have other examples
from my personal experience and that of others in just about every
discipline in undergraduate school which do not show a full
awareness of academia to that of industry.

Perhaps one out of two electronic engineering instructors at the
college/university level MIGHT have worked in the electronics industry
at one time. I wouldn't bank on that. One of the excellent ones, whom
I've never met, is Dan McCracken, past president of the ACM (I was a
member courtesy of IEEE membership).

I digress since: 1. You refuse to acknowledge my postings because
I have strong opposite views to yours; 2. You like to play some kind
of Mommie DEErest and think that all newcomers to amateur radio are
at the level of children.

Adults are required to do things they don't want to on a regular basis.

Yes, Mommie, but put aside the Mommie suit and THINK in reality.
Laws and regulations are NOT required to remain long after their
usefulness. That YOU personally like certain regulations is NO
imperative that they should be kept, certainly not to any government
agency making and enforcing those laws.

Try to remember that US amateur radio is NOT an academic exercise
nor is the FCC a college or university administering final exams.

Class dismissed.

LHA

"Larry Roll K3LT" wrote:

(snip) Now, then, how does the advocation of code
testing in any way correlate to bigotry, elitism, and/or
discrimination against other Americans? (snip)


I'm not going to waste time talking in circles with you, Larry. We just
discussed this less than a month ago, so there is little reason to repeat it
again.


Correct, because I don't consider it to be "excessive"
government regulation. I believe the government has
a valid need to regulate certain things, especially
valuable and finite resources such as the RF spectrum.
Therefore, I believe that when license is to be given for
the PRIVILEGE of free use of RF spectrum, which is
worth potentially billions of dollars should it be converted
to commerce in the commercial utility communications
and broadcasting industries, certain government
regulation makes good sense. (snip)


The only thing you didn't explain with that is a government regulation
requiring code testing to gain that privilege. In other words, what does
code testing have to do with anything you said?


(snip) First of all, FCC Commissioners are political
appointees, not necessarily technical experts. They can,
and do, depend on the advice of professional technical
experts, who actually formulate and subsequently make
recommendations on regulatory matters. (snip)


The original premise still stands - there is no code testing requirement
at the FCC, either for the commissioners who regulate Amateur Radio or the
technical experts they rely on.


(snip) However, this discussion is about the AMATEUR
Radio Service. (snip)


No, this discussion is about the code test requirement. How that applies
to Amateur Radio is only one part of that discussion.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

Dick Carroll; wrote:

Well, I really *don't* like Brussels sprouts!


I remember when I was a kid, the Brussels sprouts were one of the last
things to go in the local gardens in the fall, so us kids would pluck
them and use them for throwing at squirrels, the local girls, and other
places. In that conext, they wer okay.

And of course, every sprout chucked at a squirrel or a girl was one less
we had to eat!

- Mike KB3EIA -

I'm all for NSI (No Squash International) or NBSI (No Brussel Sprouts
International)

Ryan KC8PMX


How about NBI - NO Broccoli International?

- Mike KB3EIA -


I LIKE broccoli. Let's make it NO Peas International.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"Larry Roll K3LT" wrote:

Unfortunately, there is more evidence to support
my "feeling" than there is to support yours. With
the exception of hams who were trained in Morse
code by the military or maritime/commercial radio
services, I have yet to meet an avid and active
CW user who got that way except through the
code testing requirement. (snip)


Of course, that's mainly because the code testing requirement has been
there longer than most of us have been alive. With that in mind, obviously
most today would be CW users as a the result of code testing.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
hlink.net...
"Larry Roll K3LT" wrote:

Perhaps, but the accuracy of those judgments are
definitely affected by having had those experiences,
or not. Someone who has never experienced a
house fire, a terrorist attack, life under a tyrannical
dictator, or a business failure is certainly capable
of making the entirely incorrect judgment about any
of the above. (snip)


Gladly, we don't live in a trial and error world today. I would hope the
bridge designer would have enough knowledge to build a safe bridge without
having to watch one (perhaps this one) fall down first. People can learn
about the specifics of a subject without personally experiencing every
aspect of it. We generally trust that system for a great many things in
this
world today (for example, the bridges we routinely drive over).


I do not disagree. However, experience has shown
that people who aren't required to be code tested
usually don't bother to learn and use the Morse
code, so the issue does relate to code use, only to
the extent that the lack of a requirement would tend
to cause a decline in the use of the Morse/CW mode
in the fullness of time.


If that were true, I think a test requirement is the worst way to
accomplish what you're seeking. Instead, a better solution is to find ways
to attract new people to that aspect of ham radio. You're obviously not
going to have much success with that effort today because "no coders" have
made their choice about code while focusing solely on the license
requirement (the license requirement dominates the issue in their minds).
Later, when that license requirement is gone, the mode itself becomes the
focus. At that point, I think many more will be interested in taking a
second look at code. Obviously, there is no way for me to prove that now,
but I just have a feeling about this (perhaps the same way you have a
feeling about the above).


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/



Besides which, there is no requirement "that people who aren't required to
be code tested usually don't bother to learn and use the Morse code." So,
it is a non-issue when discussing the topic.

Kim W5TIT

Dick Carroll; wrote:

You do know about phase relationships don't you?

Isn't that like when there's like this girl an this like guy, and the
guy goes like "whoeeee!" and the girl goes like "what?" and the guy says
like "you know, it's like this phase thing", and the girl goes like
"whoeeee - I'm like into my relationship here!"

- Mike KB3EIA -


can you tell I have a bad cold?

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , "Clint" rattlehead at
computron dot net writes:

The same applies to students of all ages. When an adult goes to college,

and wasn't it pointed out in an earlier post in this, or another, thread
that
electrical engineering students aren't required to learn morse code?

I knew it already when I got to EE school. In fact I had the Extra 2 years
prior to entering EE school.

In article k.net, "Dwight
Stewart" writes:

"Larry Roll K3LT" wrote:

Well, I'm glad I finally got your attention directed
toward reality. If the Morse code isn't relevant to
any communications service outside the ARS, then
the fact that the commercial and military services
have stopped using it isn't relevant or responsive
to the issue of code testing withing the ARS.
Therefore, by your own admission, the NCTA's
prime argument is just so much worthless rhetoric.


But, as you well know, the code testing requirement was originally
established exactly because code was once relevant to the military,
government, and commercial services outside Amateur Radio.

That was one reason, 90+ years ago.

Since then, other reasons have evolved.

Since that has
now changed, it is clearly time to question the need for a unique testing
requirement for this one operating mode.

It's always appropriate to question *any* license test requirement.

Since most ham operators today
don't use code on a regular basis, there is also little need within Amateur
Radio to maintain a testing requirement for this one operating mode.

First off, since Morse code tests are only required for HF/MF licenses, perhaps
you might want to look at what ham operators do on HF/MF, not overall.

Also, consider how many of today's hams *regularly* build, repair or maintain
their own equipment. Applying the argument you are using against the code test
will gut most of the theory out of the written test, too.

All
that has led to the efforts now being made to eliminate the Morse Code test
requirement.

Or maybe some people just don't like to take tests!

The Morse/CW mode remains as a valuable, basic
communications tool within the ARS, and the code
testing requirement is current and essential to the
continued use of this mode. End of story. (snip)

But, as much as you'd like it to be, that is not the end of the story,
Larry. Because so few use it, the mode now plays only a relatively minor
role within the Amateur Radio Service.

"so few"? I think you underestimate the situation, Dwight.

Therefore, code testing is not
essential to the Amateur Radio Service.

That's a matter of opinion.

Further, without outside factors
(the needs of the other services) to consider, the FCC itself has no
significant interest today in maintaining the "continued use of this mode"
within the Amateur Radio Service. As far as the FCC is concerned, it is now
just one more operating mode among the many used within the Amateur Radio
Service.

Maybe - but again, that's your interpretation of what FCC thinks. And what FCC
thinks and does isn't necessarily what's in the best interest of the ARS.

There is no sufficient argument to support the continued existence
of a code testing requirement. As such, the code testing requirement should
be eliminated.

Well, I disagree on that, Dwight.

But ultimately it comes down to whose opinion carries the day with FCC.


73 de Jim, N2EY

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...
Dick Carroll; wrote:

Well, I really *don't* like Brussels sprouts!


I remember when I was a kid, the Brussels sprouts were one of the last
things to go in the local gardens in the fall, so us kids would pluck
them and use them for throwing at squirrels, the local girls, and other
places. In that conext, they wer okay.

And of course, every sprout chucked at a squirrel or a girl was one less
we had to eat!

- Mike KB3EIA -


Actually I like Brussel Sprouts.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Dee D. Flint wrote:

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...

Dick Carroll; wrote:


Well, I really *don't* like Brussels sprouts!


I remember when I was a kid, the Brussels sprouts were one of the last
things to go in the local gardens in the fall, so us kids would pluck
them and use them for throwing at squirrels, the local girls, and other
places. In that conext, they wer okay.

And of course, every sprout chucked at a squirrel or a girl was one less
we had to eat!

- Mike KB3EIA -



Actually I like Brussel Sprouts.

I can eat one, then suddenly theyget incredibly strong tasting to me.

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , "Kim"
writes:

"Arnie Macy" wrote in message
...
"Kim W5TIT" wrote ...

But, but, but!!!! Larry's obviously got or had large boobs, and has
obviously worn a bra. Right?! He *has* hasn't he? Surely, for if not he
would not be making value judgements on my callsign.
__________________________________________________ _______________

It took a while, but I have grown accustomed to your callsign, Kim. And
it
wasn't necessary for me to wear a bra to do it. ;-)

Arnie -
KT4ST



Uh, Arnie? If you wore a bra, the only thing you'd get from me would be,
"What ya packin' there, big fella?" ;)

Am I the only one reminded of the Seinfeld episode where Kramer and George's
father join forces to create a brassier for men? Kramer wanted to call it the
"bro" and Mr. Costanza wanted to call it the "man-sierre". Or vice versa.

Classic show. Good times.

73 de Jim, N2EY

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

N2EY wrote:
In article , Mike Coslo

writes:


I LIKE broccoli.

Me too actually.


Make that three.

Let's make it NO Peas International.

Pretty Peas?


Peas are great!

Green beans, on the other hand.....

--

And if ya really want to get people fired up:

Calves' liver, anyone?

Like 'em all so far.

Okra maybe?

Reminds me of a line in a Chris Smither song:

"I got okra, enough to choke ya"

Anybody else know what a "merliton" is?

73 de Jim, N2EY.

An absence of character, I'd suggest.

73, Leo

On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:10:01 -0400, "Arnie Macy"
wrote:

Dee,

I know I'm pointing out the obvious here, but why do you think it's
necessary for Len to *always* pepper his replies with personal insults. A
character flaw of some kind, maybe?

Arnie -
KT4ST

"Dwight Stewart" wrote ...

Well, that may be what you're discussing, but I'm discussing Morse Code
testing - a discussion which, by it's very nature, cannot be limited to just
Amateur Radio. However, if the discussion were limited to just Amateur
Radio, your arguments would have no more weight since most ham operators
today don't use code/cw on any routine or regular basis. There is little
reason to maintain testing for a mode that is seldom used by more than a
relatively small minority.
__________________________________________________ ________________

Where did you get your information, Dwight? According to the ARRL (the
primary ARS organization in the US) -- CW is the second most popular mode in
the ARS -- Just behind SSB. That on its face would mean that there are
still a whole bunch of folks out there still using it.

Arnie -
KT4ST

Let's see... If I were to set up a bogus hotmail or AOL account, pick out a
callsign from the callbook and then set up to access EchoLink on my computer
and skip around the different systems, playing "Gangsta Rap" and golden
XXX-rated oldies by the "Fugs", and FBI recordings of rabbits being
slaughtered over distant EchoLink repeaters - just for fun - would I be
breaking any laws?

Remember that I would be accessing over the Internet, using a call I picked
from a list, maybe even an inactive one. No radio involved, at least none of
mine.

Who would be responsible for the transmissions on those distant repeaters?

Just what law or regulation would make it illegal to access EchoLink with a
bogus callsign? I don't think there is one.

Should I cross-post this question to the newsgroups frequented by CB'ers,
Freebanders, FRS folk, etc? If not - Why not?

Charles Brabham, N5PVL