"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
et...
Larry Roll K3LT wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:


Can anyone *prove* to me that the Extra written contains things a ham

*must*

know to operate on the Extra-only subbands?

Nope! There is really not much reason to go from General to Extra
beyond personal satisfaction!

- Mike KB3EIA -


Mike:

In the past (the Pre-Restructuring Era), the reason for upgrading was
that
increased operating privileges were the reward for gaining increased
technical knowledge and operating skill. The ARS seems to have taken
a clue from the rest of our dumbed-down society and abandoned this
philosophy.

And what I'm thinking is that unless it means something again, they
might as well get rid of it. That little sliver of operating frequencies
is not worth it, if increased privileges are the measuring stick.

- Mike KB3EIA -


Wrong again Mike. Its a place to go to get away from the 'others'... hi.

Dan/W4NTI

"Larry Roll K3LT" wrote in message
...
In article , Dick Carroll
writes:

The FCC's goal, obviously, is to get as much of the administrative
burden of the ARS licensing system off their backs as possible, so I
look for them to do just that.


I don't think so. FCC's work at admininistring the ARS licensing can't
get to much a level than it currently is.

Here's about what I look for:

1) Combine Novice/Tech/Tech Plus into one license, probably Tech, with
some amount of lower HF band Fone and CW/Digital access. Might even
use the old Novice segments for their digital/CW segment. After all,
it's still the 'entry level' license.

2) Probably drop element 1 for Generals.

3) Leave Advanced alone and let attritition take care of it.

4) Leave Extra alone with a 5wpm code test. Should be 12wpm but
I doubt they'll back up at this late date.

I don't expect them to do this nor anything else before the
next rules review is due.

Dick:

Of course, there's always the remote possibility that the FCC will
take the easiest course of action, which is to make no further changes
to the ARS licensing structure and requirements at all. However,
this would seem to be almost impossible for them to get away with,
in light of the language of the Restructuring R&O. One can always
hope, but I'm 99% sure we'll see code testing go away. Of course,
when it does, Carl and the NCI will then be in the "hot seat" -- since
we'll now be able to sit back and wait for the technical/digital
revolution they've promised all along. Personally, I hope they're right,
but I don't have that kind of luck.

73 de Larry, K3LT

Forget it Larry. It ain't gonna happen. The puter folks may get into ham
radio for the UHF / SHF linking aspects. Just to increase range. But that
will be it.

HF has no interest to them. Nor does conventional voice stuff. And, of
course, forget CW.

Basically what it amounts to, AND ALWAYS HAS. It takes a certain breed to
be a real radio ham. And we are going away fast.

Dan/W4NTI

Alun Palmer wrote:
"Dan/W4NTI" w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com wrote in
link.net:


Clint, Clint, Clint. She was making a point of discussing the time.
Not the code, per se. She said all the 1X2s were issued BEFORE the
code was dropped. Do you have a comprehension problem too?

Dan/W4NTI

"Clint" rattlehead at computron dot net wrote in message
...

Exactly.

That was my point; make a post about back up batteries for
black-out ham radio operations, and you'll get them making
CW test remarks about it.

Make a post about feedline pro's and con's, and they'll
devolve it back to morse code testing.

Talk about what is the best background noise reducing
handheld radio for use on the toilet when you have
diahrrea.. and yep, it's all about morse code testing again.

No matter what, follow a thread long enough and they'll find
a way to use the most twisted path of logic to blame
NCI and the reduction & removal of morse code testing.

Was it, in fact, to blame for the shuttle disaster?

I digress.

Clint

"Alun Palmer" wrote in message
...

Mike Coslo wrote in
ia.net:


Alun Palmer wrote:


"Clint" rattlehead at computron dot net wrote in
:



Man you got that right Mike. It was that way, decades ago.
The extra used to mean something. Now it means squat.

Don't believe me? Look at the before and after code gutting.
I was going to get a fancy 1X2 years ago. Glad I didn't now.

Dan/W4NTI

All the 1x2 sequentially assigned calls were gone long before
the 20wpm code was dropped.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE


The real observation here is to note a complaint about extra
class hams not knowing
what the length of a 1/2 wave dipole was on a given frequency;
has nothing to do
with sending and recieving morse code skill.

Kinda showed your colors there.

Clint





It was a dead giveaway. Anyone who thinks that 20wpm code
operating skill means you know all about dipoles has a serious
problem that no amount of discussion will ever change.

The new requirements *probably* will have no Morse code
requirements, ergo Morse is not really relevant to this
thread.

That an extra might have no idea about the length of a half
wave dipole
at 40 meters - or more importantly, precisely no idea on how to
calculate it - indicates a more serious problem to me.

- Mike KB3EIA -



But one that has nothing to do with 20wpm, which I didn't introduce
into the discussion





It looked to me like the post was saying no Extra would have been ignorant
about dipoles when the code test speed was 20wpm. If it meant something
else it might have been saying something logical, HI!

I can vouch for that. I'm reasonably smart, and I really stink at Morse
code. Morse code skills/knowledge are distinctly separtate from the RF
skills/knowledge. I knew how to calculate a half wave dipole long before
I knew any other Morse besides SOS.

Do I get a medal now? 8^) Probably not.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Dan/W4NTI wrote:


I've never thought of it that way Larry, but your 100% correct. Just look
at Kim.

Speaking of.. I wonder if she's run off again? Her last couple of posts
didn't present her in a very good mood.

I mean plenty of people think I'm dumm, but I'm hardly ever called
dispicable! 8^)

I think there may be a pattern here!

"Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message ...
"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
et...

And what I'm thinking is that unless it means something again, they
might as well get rid of it. That little sliver of operating frequencies
is not worth it, if increased privileges are the measuring stick.

Actually, the differences in privs from General to Extra are substantial.

Are they? Let's take a look...

What additional frequency spectrum does a General get by upgrading to
Extra?

On VHF/UHF - nothing

On MF - nothing

On HF:

100 kHz of non-phone/image space on 4 bands. This amounts to ~8.5% of
the 1182 kHz of non-phone/image space on the eight HF amateur bands.

350 kHz of phone/image space on 4 bands. This amounts to ~14.8% of the
2368 kHz of phone/image space on the eight HF amateur bands.

Total: 450 kHz of space out of a total of 3550 kHz on the eight HF
amateur bands. ~12.7% more space

What additional frequency spectrum does an Advanced get by upgrading
to Extra?

On VHF/UHF - nothing

On MF - nothing

On HF:

100 kHz of non-phone/image space on 4 bands. This amounts to ~8.5% of
the 1182 kHz of non-phone/image space on the eight HF amateur bands.

75 kHz of phone/image space on 3 bands. This amounts to ~3.2% of the
2368 kHz of phone/image space on the eight HF amateur bands.

Total: 175 kHz of space out of a total of 3550 kHz on the eight HF
amateur bands. ~4.9% more space

Of the 3550 kHz in the eight HF amateur bands, 66.7% - almost exactly
two-thirds - is allocated to phone/image, while slightly less than
one-third is non-phone/image space.

With the FCC no longer issuing Advanced licenses, the only way to
gain access to the "Advanced sub-bands" is to upgrade to Extra.

Said subbands consist of 275 kHz on four bands, all of it phone/image
space.

I'd say that's a pretty good incentive.

There's also the spiffy callsigns.

But it all depends on what it is a ham wants to do.

Back before restructuring, the ham who wasn't interested in
phone/image had no reason to get an Advanced. And the ham who wasn't
interested in CW/data had relatively little reason to get an Extra.

73 de Jim, N2EY

Mike Coslo wrote in message . net...
N2EY wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:


N2EY wrote:


In article ,



(Larry Roll K3LT) writes:



I think that the most likely scenario is that they will do as you suggest,
and distill it down to two license classes, General and Extra. All current
Techs would be "grandfathered" to the General class, and the Extra will
remain the same, sans Element 1(a). This would be the easiest change
to accomplish from an administrative standpoint, and they wouldn't have
to even bother renaming the remaining license classes, which would only
risk causing resentment among current Extras. There could be, at most,
a requirement for current Techs to pass another written element, but the
grandfathering would be an easier fix.


ARRL asked for something very similar back in 1998 and FCC said no. (ARRL's
proposal would have given Novices and Tech Pluses instant upgrades to

General).

Such an instant upgrade has these problems:

1) A lot of screaming about "no giveaways"

Let's test your premise here, Jim. Would you support a one class system


in which all amateurs that have passed Novice, Tech, General or (of
course) Extra get an "instant upgrade" to Extra?


No. In fact, not just "no" but "HELL, NO!!"

Okay, now I know a little more where you stand on this. I wasn't sure if
you were being DA on it or what..... Wait a second... DA means Devil's
Advocate... other interpretations might not be so kind! 8^)

Devil's Advocate I sometimes am.


snip

Can anyone *prove* to me that the Extra written contains things a ham *must*
know to operate on the Extra-only subbands?

Nope! There is really not much reason to go from General to Extra
beyond personal satisfaction!

Not what I meant.

My point is simply this: The code test has been deemed "unnecessary"
by some under the reasoning that a ham doesn't absolutley have to know
the code in order to operate an amateur station safely and legally.
The Tech license and the R&O for 98-143 are frequently pointed to as
proof of this.

But by that same logic, there is nothing (or very very little) in the
Extra *test* that is absolutely necessary for a ham to know in order
to operate an amateur station safely and legally. Proof of this is
easy - the only operating privileges that an Extra gets you that a
General doesn't are more kHz of 4 HF bands.

No new bands, no new modes, no more power. So most if not all of the
Extra written test is therefore "unnecessary" by the very same logic
that deems the code test to be "unnecessary".

So what we have is essentially this: The code test is held to a
different standard than the writtens by some folks. They think it's OK
to require people take more and more written tests to get more
privileges, but it's not OK to require even a basic 5 wpm code test
for any license.

Some may say "but the written test supports the basis and purpose of
amateur radio as a technical service" - but can they point to anyone
who became "more technical" because they were required to take more
written tests?



73 de Jim, N2EY

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...
Dan/W4NTI wrote:


I've never thought of it that way Larry, but your 100% correct. Just
look
at Kim.

Speaking of.. I wonder if she's run off again? Her last couple of posts
didn't present her in a very good mood.

I mean plenty of people think I'm dumm, but I'm hardly ever called
dispicable! 8^)

I think there may be a pattern here!


Did I misspell despicable? Anyway, no, I've not "run off" and my "bad mood"
(a purely interpreted opinion because I have not been in a bad mood) is a
result of being pretty damned bored with the same 'ol same 'ol in this
newsgroup. My reason for being on the computer here at home, though, is at
an end--or at least for the moment. I've completed one project but got
called the other day for another...

We'll see...

Oh, and I have to ask just to see what your answer is: what "pattern" are
you stretching for?

Kim W5TIT

Dan/W4NTI wrote:
"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
et...

Dan/W4NTI wrote:



What contests do you do? I don't remember you. Course I've only done

them

for 30 years or so.

PAQSO, NEQP, Field day, North American. I tried the Ohio this year, but
conditions were bad. I've not been licensed too long, and sometimes op
our club station (W3YA)

- Mike KB3EIA -



Good show Mike. Sure I know W3YA. And this coming weekend is PA Qso Party.
I intend to enter. What call you using, if your going to enter?

I'll be at the mountaintop using W3YA, Centre County We're on 40 a lot.
I'll be the control op some of the time for newbies, and hanging out for
the hams that don't have a home station. Once in a while, I'll get to
operate even. I'll keep an ear out for you.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Dan/W4NTI wrote:

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
et...

Larry Roll K3LT wrote:


In article , Mike Coslo
writes:



Can anyone *prove* to me that the Extra written contains things a ham

*must*


know to operate on the Extra-only subbands?

Nope! There is really not much reason to go from General to Extra
beyond personal satisfaction!

- Mike KB3EIA -


Mike:

In the past (the Pre-Restructuring Era), the reason for upgrading was

that

increased operating privileges were the reward for gaining increased
technical knowledge and operating skill. The ARS seems to have taken
a clue from the rest of our dumbed-down society and abandoned this
philosophy.

And what I'm thinking is that unless it means something again, they
might as well get rid of it. That little sliver of operating frequencies
is not worth it, if increased privileges are the measuring stick.

- Mike KB3EIA -



Wrong again Mike. Its a place to go to get away from the 'others'... hi.

Hmm, you just might have a point there, Dan!

- Mike KB3EIA -

Kim W5TIT wrote:

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...

Dan/W4NTI wrote:


I've never thought of it that way Larry, but your 100% correct. Just

look

at Kim.

Speaking of.. I wonder if she's run off again? Her last couple of posts
didn't present her in a very good mood.

I mean plenty of people think I'm dumm, but I'm hardly ever called
dispicable! 8^)

I think there may be a pattern here!



Did I misspell despicable?

Okay by my spell checker!

snippage


Oh, and I have to ask just to see what your answer is: what "pattern" are
you stretching for?

Since I've been here, You have gotten really angry (bored?) with
someone and quit posting for a while. Then you've returned and started
posting again.

Nothing sinister here.

- Mike KB3EIA -