In article , "Carl R. Stevenson"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , "Carl R. Stevenson"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , "Carl R. Stevenson"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
[snip]

One of the big problems is the "nobody loses/nobody gets a windfall"
paradigm.

The NCI and NCVEC Petitions are "nobody loses/nobody gets a windfall"
propositions ... since a tech now gets HF privs if he/she passes a 5
wpm
code test, the elimination of the test would not be a "windfall" if
all
techs got the same privs as the old "TechPlus" ...

Everything else stays the same.

Yup. And so we wind up with a continuation of the VHF/UHF heavy, HF/MF
light
entry level setup that is an artifact of the old S25.5.

I doubt that ... I expect that a very large percentage of techs will
rapidly
upgrade to at least general, if not extra, once the code test is gone.

Maybe - but look at what has happened with the Tech Plus:

It's been 3-1/2 years since restructuring.

No new Tech Pluses in all that time.

All existing Tech Pluses changed to Techs when renewing or vanity call
granted.

Many Tech Pluses needed no additional testing at all to get a General.

Yet we still have about 50% of pre-restructuring Tech Pluses on the
books.Which
means many of the existing Tech Pluses simply haven't yet bothered to
upgrade
to General.

But by your own figuring, (about) 50% of them HAVE ...

You misinterpret what I wrote, Carl.

The number Tech Pluses is dropping for four reasons:

1) Expirations
2) Vanity calls
3) Renewal as Techs
4) Upgrades

The number of Tech Pluses today is down about 50% from the pre-restructuring
numbers for all of the above reasons, not just upgrades.

The idea of "eliminate the code test and give techs "techplus" privs is
logical, takes nothing away from anyone, and gives nobody a "freebie."

From the standpoint of written testing, anyway.

It's not a "freebie" in any way ... current Tech+ and "Tech with code
credit" have access to (some) HF ... if the code test is no longer a
requirement for HF access, it's only fair that Techs have access ...
they've passed the same written as (most) Tech+ ... (I would find it
hard to believe that "old Techs" who had credit for both 5 wpm and
the full General written wouldn't have upgraded to AT LEAST
General ...

Obviously some have and some haven't. See above.

While you may find it hard to believe, nevertheless it is a fact.

Note also how few hams have upgraded to Extra. I recall being told that, even
with medical waivers, the code test was the main "barrier" to more Extras. That
alleged "barrier" is long gone - yet we have over 225,000 US hams who have not
gone for Extra, even though all it would take for them to get the Extra was a
single written test.

Didja know that some time back QCWA (you're a member, I'm not, even though
I'm
"qualified") asked FCC to grant all pre-Nov.22-1968 Generals and Advanceds
a
free upgrade to Extra? Talk about freebies!

Yes ... I believe that was in their comments in 98-143 and NCI opposed
it, along with the NCVECs ... we both said, "If they want to upgrade, they
should have to take the written element(s) that they need to get there. No
freebies!"

Of course. And their counter-argument was that it wasn't a freebie at all -
they'd been considered worthy of full privileges before Nov.22, 1968, so why
not now?

In the case of NCVEC, there may be more petitions and proposals. They
have
already hinted at same.

I'm not part of that group, so I can't speak for them ... if they file a
petition
seeking to water down the writtens or expand the phone bands, I'll oppose
it vigorously (personally).

Same here. But does Fred often take no for an answer? He sure is used to
getting his way.

There is more to the NCVECs than Fred ... I would expect the ARRL rep
to oppose such an action ...

The ARRL rep did not oppose NCVECs petition to dump Element 1 - instead, he
abstained. Same thing could happen in other petitions.

And even if ARRL opposes, Fred could still get his way with NCVEC. Has NCVEC
ever gone against one of his ideas and stopped him?

I think these proposals fully meet the "nobody loses/nobody gets a
windfall" paradigm.

Some would say that getting full privileges with no code test was a
windfall, but I'm not gonna go there....

The governments of the world don't seem to hold that view, so you'd be
up against the "heavy hitters."

The governments of the world don't make FCC rules.

The FCC was part of one of those governments of the world that
supported the elimination of the requirement at WRC-03 ...

Well, there you have it.

How would you feel if it was proposed that all Advanceds get an instant
upgrade
to Extra with no additional testing?

I'd oppose it ... there's a point to the additional written test for Extra,
and
without having passed it, you're not qualified.

Why not?

A General or Advanced class ham can do everything that an Extra can except:

- certain VE functions
- obtain certain vanity calls
- use certain small slices of four HF bands.

There are no modes, bands or power levels restricted to Extras only. No
technology that only Extras can use.

So what makes a General unqualified and an Extra qualified?

(Before you take another
tack here, there IS no point to Morse testing ... so it doesn't really count
as a qualification, Element 1 is a vestigial thing that the FCC had to keep in
order to not be in derrogation of the ITU Radio Regs, not because it was
a truly rational, justifiable "qualification" ...)

In your opinion, that is.

But even if Element 1 remains, it's the same element for both Generals and
Extras. No additional qualifications. And that goes back to 1990 and the
medical waivers.

So it all comes down to the writtens, whether Element 1 goes or stays.

Main point is that between those two constrainsts, very little change
in
the writtens or basic structure is possible.

And I think the three classes of license are reasonable and appropriate.
Tech becomes the "entry" license, general is "mid-grade," and extra is
"top." I don't see anything wrong with that ...

That's essentially what we have now.

If it a'int broke, don't fix it ... the only thing that's "broke" is that
they haven't yet eliminated the Morse test now that they're free to do so.

My point is that some folks are likely to say it *is* broke, even if Element 1
goes away.

Take a look at the recent dropoff in the number of new Techs in the past two
months since the new Tech Q&A pool was put in place. The total number of US
hams has dropped by a few thousand since July 1, due mainly to a drop in the
number of new Techs.

Hopefully this is just an anomaly. But suppose it isn't - and suppose that
Element 1 is dropped and the numbers still don't rise. In such a case, how do
we counter those who will want to water down the writtens even more than they
are now?

73 de Jim, N2EY

Ah, the agenda *again*.

doesn't take long from the time you guys set up the trap to springing it
on the cw test issue.


Did I mention anything about CW, I dont think so.

Do you guys dream about morse code tests?



Look lid you still dont get it, I am well aware the CW test is gone, my
complaint still is the Give away Written.

But suppose it isn't - and suppose that
Element 1 is dropped and the numbers still don't rise. In such a case, how do
we counter those who will want to water down the writtens even more than they
are now?

73 de Jim, N2EY

My point exactly, Im not even concerned about CW Testing. Im more concerned
about the Written.Since we have all ready thrown the Doors open, the next
logical step is to Dumb Down the written even more. Which Im sure is probably
all ready in the works.

"WA8ULX" wrote in message
...
Ah, the agenda *again*.

doesn't take long from the time you guys set up the trap to springing it
on the cw test issue.


Did I mention anything about CW, I dont think so.

"cw test issue", bonehead. You said:

"Not hardly Karl, these people are the Knuckle Dragging NCI Members I hear."


---
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well, genius, here is the statement you posted...

Not hardly Karl, these people are the Knuckle Dragging NCI Members I hear.

What is NCI? it's the group that opposes morse code testing... well, then, I
guess by definition then you are posting about CW aren't you? HM? Just
like if I were to post a slur against the ACLU then I guess by definition I
am attacking what that organization stands for, hm?????

You thought you won the race but it's because you showed up to the
wrong track and nobody was racing against you.

Clint

--

Reasons why it sucks to be a liberal....
file overrun error

--
"WA8ULX" wrote in message
...
Ah, the agenda *again*.

doesn't take long from the time you guys set up the trap to springing it
on the cw test issue.


Did I mention anything about CW, I dont think so.

You're not fooling anybody.

--

Reasons why it sucks to be a liberal....
file overrun error

--
"WA8ULX" wrote in message
...
Do you guys dream about morse code tests?



Look lid you still dont get it, I am well aware the CW test is gone, my
complaint still is the Give away Written.

"WA8ULX" wrote in message
...

My point exactly, Im not even concerned about CW Testing.

AH....

That's why 90% of your posts attack the "knuckle dragging NCI"
and whimpering about those who oppose CW testing, mixed with
such insults as "lazy".

--

Reasons why it sucks to be a liberal....
file overrun error

--

What is NCI? it's the group that opposes morse code testing.

They are also the Group which doesnt have a CLUE about anything else except
give it to me for nothing. These are probably the same group that will start
NWI. As a matter of fact, one of there great supporters, and long time Members,
has all ready suggested that the written be Dumbed Down even more.

That's why 90% of your posts attack the "knuckle dragging NCI"
and whimpering about those who oppose CW testing, mixed with
such insults as "lazy".


Its because some of there own membership has suggested it.

Mike those posts just illustrate the extent of the problem the posters
have long had - for them code testing trumps everything else.


You just dont get it. Its not just the code. The next hurdle will be easy to do
away with. Dont believe it, just ask TIT, let her explain the magic of a 1/4
Wave Dipole. Let her tell you how most Hams dont have a clue on this Magical
Antenna, and remember it was TIT, and her No-Code bunch who discovered it.

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message
.com...

"Dan/W4NTI" w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com wrote in message
link.net...

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
t...
Carl R. Stevenson wrote:

And I think the three classes of license are reasonable and
appropriate.
Tech becomes the "entry" license, general is "mid-grade," and extra
is
"top." I don't see anything wrong with that ...

What do you think would be a good division knowledge wise between the
classes? The tech and general are not too bad now, knowledge to
privileges. I lean a bit toward having the Extra require a bit more
knowledge, or perhaps experience. I know a few no-experience Extra's
and
it just seems (to me) that some "time in grade" might make the
license
more meaningful.

- Mike KB3EIA -


Man you got that right Mike. It was that way, decades ago. The extra
used
to mean something. Now it means squat.

Don't believe me? Look at the before and after code gutting. I was
going
to get a fancy 1X2 years ago. Glad I didn't now.

Dan/W4NTI

All the 1x2 sequentially assigned calls were gone long before the 20wpm
code
was dropped.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE


I was refering to when I upgraded, back in the 70s. I had several chances
to change to a 1X2.

As I said, glad I didn't now. I'll just keep what I got, and let folks
wonder what I have. Cause there sure ain't no reason to brag about it.

Dan/W4NTI

"Clint" rattlehead at computron dot net wrote in message
...

Man you got that right Mike. It was that way, decades ago. The
extra
used
to mean something. Now it means squat.

Don't believe me? Look at the before and after code gutting. I was
going
to get a fancy 1X2 years ago. Glad I didn't now.

Dan/W4NTI

All the 1x2 sequentially assigned calls were gone long before the 20wpm
code
was dropped.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE


The real observation here is to note a complaint about extra class hams
not
knowing
what the length of a 1/2 wave dipole was on a given frequency; has nothing
to do
with sending and recieving morse code skill.

Kinda showed your colors there.

Clint



Let me clear up the fog for you Clint. My point is the Extra ain't worth a
damn any more.

Dan/W4NTI

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
et...
Alun Palmer wrote:

"Clint" rattlehead at computron dot net wrote in
:


Man you got that right Mike. It was that way, decades ago. The
extra used to mean something. Now it means squat.

Don't believe me? Look at the before and after code gutting. I was
going to get a fancy 1X2 years ago. Glad I didn't now.

Dan/W4NTI

All the 1x2 sequentially assigned calls were gone long before the
20wpm code was dropped.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE


The real observation here is to note a complaint about extra class hams
not knowing
what the length of a 1/2 wave dipole was on a given frequency; has
nothing to do
with sending and recieving morse code skill.

Kinda showed your colors there.

Clint





It was a dead giveaway. Anyone who thinks that 20wpm code operating
skill
means you know all about dipoles has a serious problem that no amount of
discussion will ever change.

The new requirements *probably* will have no Morse code requirements,
ergo Morse is not really relevant to this thread.

That an extra might have no idea about the length of a half wave dipole
at 40 meters - or more importantly, precisely no idea on how to
calculate it - indicates a more serious problem to me.

- Mike KB3EIA -


My point exactly. But lets not confuse the dead heads out there with the
reality of the situation.

Dan/W4NTI

"Clint" rattlehead at computron dot net wrote in message
...


The new requirements *probably* will have no Morse code requirements,
ergo Morse is not really relevant to this thread.


They may or may not; if the FCC decides that no "no further change in the
license structure is required at this time" then of course that will be
the
final
word on *that* matter, and we'll accept it and go on since they are the
ones that have the final say. I just couldn't help but notice how certain
ones
in here I think have such an overpowering agenda regarding the CW
part of the testing that it tends to take them over and govern, or at
least
seriously influence, everything they have to remark about in ham radio.

I'm a general class operator; I realize by definition that means I had to
show knowledge in certain areas to prove I deserved recieving the next
higher license class than tech-plus; however, I did not demonstrate enough
skill and knowledge to warrant recieving the advanced class license.
Therefore,
advanced class operators *should* know more than I do, or at least as
much.

That brings us to the sad truth that if an *extra* class license operator
doesn't
know how to calculate the length of a walf wave dipole on 40m (or whatever
frequency), that is a serious issue. I say that because calculating the
length of
an antenna, especially a halfwave dipole of ALL things, is and always WILL
be so basic to ham radio that it should be on page one of chapter one of
every study guide ever printed. Such matters is why I put such a strong
emphasis on putting more priority on written testing than that of the
skills
of
translating a CW transmission.

Sad thing is, most the time I get on 75 meters and begin discussing ham
radio
tech stuff, there is usually one heckler that harangues you about it and
makes
light of the fact that you were talking about ham radio stuff and not what
the
weather was like on a day 58 years ago while an old man sat on a porch
and peeled potatoes in the hot summer sun... true story. I actually was on
the
airwaves a few weeks ago discussing the pros and cons how how to set up
a new 75 meter inverted V I was going to make at home... and as soon as
I finished the conversation with the other ham and he went off the air, a
couple
of hams got in there and began talking to one another BASHING me for doing
so... can you imagine???

Clint



Sure can Clint. And you just made my point.

Dan/W4NTI

"WA8ULX" wrote in message
...
Do you guys dream about morse code tests?



Look lid you still dont get it, I am well aware the CW test is gone, my
complaint still is the Give away Written.

Don't confuse him Bruce....he thinks he is on a roll.

Dan/W4NTI

Clint, Clint, Clint. She was making a point of discussing the time. Not
the code, per se. She said all the 1X2s were issued BEFORE the code was
dropped. Do you have a comprehension problem too?

Dan/W4NTI

"Clint" rattlehead at computron dot net wrote in message
...
Exactly.

That was my point; make a post about back up batteries for
black-out ham radio operations, and you'll get them making
CW test remarks about it.

Make a post about feedline pro's and con's, and they'll
devolve it back to morse code testing.

Talk about what is the best background noise reducing
handheld radio for use on the toilet when you have
diahrrea.. and yep, it's all about morse code testing
again.

No matter what, follow a thread long enough and they'll find
a way to use the most twisted path of logic to blame
NCI and the reduction & removal of morse code testing.

Was it, in fact, to blame for the shuttle disaster?

I digress.

Clint

"Alun Palmer" wrote in message
...
Mike Coslo wrote in
et:

Alun Palmer wrote:

"Clint" rattlehead at computron dot net wrote in
:


Man you got that right Mike. It was that way, decades ago. The
extra used to mean something. Now it means squat.

Don't believe me? Look at the before and after code gutting. I
was
going to get a fancy 1X2 years ago. Glad I didn't now.

Dan/W4NTI

All the 1x2 sequentially assigned calls were gone long before the
20wpm code was dropped.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE


The real observation here is to note a complaint about extra class
hams not knowing
what the length of a 1/2 wave dipole was on a given frequency; has
nothing to do
with sending and recieving morse code skill.

Kinda showed your colors there.

Clint





It was a dead giveaway. Anyone who thinks that 20wpm code operating
skill means you know all about dipoles has a serious problem that no
amount of discussion will ever change.

The new requirements *probably* will have no Morse code
requirements,
ergo Morse is not really relevant to this thread.

That an extra might have no idea about the length of a half wave
dipole
at 40 meters - or more importantly, precisely no idea on how to
calculate it - indicates a more serious problem to me.

- Mike KB3EIA -



But one that has nothing to do with 20wpm, which I didn't introduce into
the discussion

"Clint" rattlehead at computron dot net wrote in message
...


Don't believe me? Look at the before and after code gutting.

ah, and there we have it.
the agenda.


--

Reasons why it sucks to be a liberal....
file overrun error

--



You really have a problem don't you Clint? Or are you just stupid?

I used that statement as a point in time. Thats all.

And you talk about the pro coders having a problem. Shhhhhhhhhsssshhh..

Dan/W4NTI

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
et...
Dan/W4NTI wrote:

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
t...

Carl R. Stevenson wrote:


And I think the three classes of license are reasonable and
appropriate.
Tech becomes the "entry" license, general is "mid-grade," and extra is
"top." I don't see anything wrong with that ...

What do you think would be a good division knowledge wise between the
classes? The tech and general are not too bad now, knowledge to
privileges. I lean a bit toward having the Extra require a bit more
knowledge, or perhaps experience. I know a few no-experience Extra's and
it just seems (to me) that some "time in grade" might make the license
more meaningful.

- Mike KB3EIA -



Man you got that right Mike. It was that way, decades ago. The extra
used
to mean something. Now it means squat.

To my logic, the top level should be exactly that - the top level. The
expert in the field. This should entail more than the test requirements.
The Extra should be able to be depended on to give intelligent and
accurate answers to normal situations that crop up:

"Whoa there fella, you're in the CW portion of the band operating
voice. Here let me show you where the band edge is."

"Ahh, the reason you can't work Europe is you have your dipole oriented
the wrong way."

"Here, let me help."

The general class op can of course be inexperienced Sometimes they can
do things in an incorrect or inefficient manner. But that's okay as long
as they eventually get it right. But if the highest class doesn't really
mean anything, perhaps there should only two classes

Don't believe me? Look at the before and after code gutting. I was
going
to get a fancy 1X2 years ago. Glad I didn't now.

I'm still trying to decide what to do. I do a fair bit of contesting,
and KB3EIA is quite a mouthfull at those times. It's not too bad CW wise
(tho I haven't done CW contesting - maybe if I ever get good enough)

- Mike KB3EIA -


Go ahead and drop it. But a W4 ain't too ruff. Although the "I" gets
dropped in QSB at times.

I do alright contesting.

What contests do you do? I don't remember you. Course I've only done them
for 30 years or so.

Dan/W4NTI

As I said, glad I didn't now. I'll just keep what I got, and let folks
wonder what I have. Cause there sure ain't no reason to brag about it.

Dan/W4NTI

Thats why these No-Coders run out and grab a 1x2 or 1x3.They think this will
make people think they have been around awhile and know something.

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message
.com...

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
et...
Dan/W4NTI wrote:

Don't believe me? Look at the before and after code gutting. I was
going
to get a fancy 1X2 years ago. Glad I didn't now.

I'm still trying to decide what to do. I do a fair bit of contesting,
and KB3EIA is quite a mouthfull at those times. It's not too bad CW wise
(tho I haven't done CW contesting - maybe if I ever get good enough)

- Mike KB3EIA -


The way to get good at it is to jump in and do it anyway. The way to
start
is to listen to one station over and over until you finally pick out the
information and then to through your call sign in. Also never hesitate to
send "PS QRS" when necessary. You can even specify the speed with "PS QRS
10" or whatever you are comfortable with. Most will slow down.

I'm not particularly good at it myself but am running about 50% CW
contacts
on the ongoing California QSO party.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE


Good for you Dee D. I played in it myself. Got 147 phone and 194 on CW.

Dan/W4NTI

Let me clear up the fog for you Clint. My point is the Extra ain't worth a
damn any more.

Dan/W4NTI


Thats for sure, but in my case the only reason I upgraded was for the $250.00.
And I got to take it from of a bunch of No-Code Dead Heads. Still havent used
the EXTRA for the EXTRA band segments, probably never will.

"Clint" rattlehead at computron dot net wrote in message
...


Why? Maybe a little time in grade would mean we don't hear a new extra
ask
" how long is a half wave dipole on forty?"

Dan/W4NTI



to me that just doesn't make any sense... I think you're implying that a
long time
ago, you would NEVER hear an extra ask such an entry-level question, and I
believe you are right. I do not believe the answer lies in haveing a "time
in grade"
requirement... and while it's impossible to have a comprehensive test that
covers
EVERYTHING (for obvious reasons), I believe it's possible to have a test
that
makes sure a person doesn't reach the top level license without knowing
basics
that the novice level licensees should be asking about.

i'm also a nuts-and-bolts person... just start at the basic everyday ham
radio station,
at each part that makes it up, and have a question pool that pertains to
each one....
questions about grounding, questions about feedline, questions about
antennas,
pretty much the way they do now but as he said, add "meat" to it...
increase
the
amount of knowledge you have to have in each area to meet the requirements
to
be an extra class ham radio operator. It would be a beautiful thing, and
made
possible by the fact that the perspective extra will have more time to
alot
studying
what really matters to know what a ham radio station is than simply test
eye-hand-
hearing coordination in some old communication mode that's being dropped
by non-ham radio services world wide in leaps and bounds...

Let it be repeated
that one of the fundamental concepts of ham radio is the "progression of
the
radio art", NOT "the progression of the HAM radio art as a snapshot in
time
during the 1950's"... after all, isn't that an oxymoron? trying to
progress,
spread
knoweldge about and increase the use of something that is obsolete?

Clint

--

Reasons why it sucks to be a liberal....
file overrun error

--



Gee Clint...Im impressed. You actually do know something about ham radio
and how is USED TO BE. Congrats.

Dan/W4NTI

My point exactly. But lets not confuse the dead heads out there with the
reality of the situation.

Dan/W4NTI

Thats how get a good laugh, I love to listen to these Dead Heads when there
trying to explain something. Whats even funnier is the other Dead Head believes
him.

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
et...
Dan/W4NTI wrote:


Why? Maybe a little time in grade would mean we don't hear a new extra
ask
" how long is a half wave dipole on forty?"

It's a quarter wave dipole Dan! You'd think we'd have that figured out
by now! Ducking now 8^)

- Mike KB3EIA -


Oh thats right Mike....that reminds me, Ive got to throw out all those
outdated tech manuals.

Dan/W4NTI

Sure can Clint. And you just made my point.

Dan/W4NTI


Can you imagine the rude awaking these Knuckle Draggers will receive when they
get on HF?

Don't confuse him Bruce....he thinks he is on a roll.

Dan/W4NTI


Dan he doesnt know any better, he really thinks he knows something.

Alun Palmer wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in
et:


Alun Palmer wrote:


"Clint" rattlehead at computron dot net wrote in
:



Man you got that right Mike. It was that way, decades ago. The
extra used to mean something. Now it means squat.

Don't believe me? Look at the before and after code gutting. I was
going to get a fancy 1X2 years ago. Glad I didn't now.

Dan/W4NTI

All the 1x2 sequentially assigned calls were gone long before the
20wpm code was dropped.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE


The real observation here is to note a complaint about extra class
hams not knowing
what the length of a 1/2 wave dipole was on a given frequency; has
nothing to do
with sending and recieving morse code skill.

Kinda showed your colors there.

Clint





It was a dead giveaway. Anyone who thinks that 20wpm code operating
skill means you know all about dipoles has a serious problem that no
amount of discussion will ever change.

The new requirements *probably* will have no Morse code
requirements,
ergo Morse is not really relevant to this thread.

That an extra might have no idea about the length of a half wave
dipole
at 40 meters - or more importantly, precisely no idea on how to
calculate it - indicates a more serious problem to me.

- Mike KB3EIA -




But one that has nothing to do with 20wpm, which I didn't introduce into
the discussion

You are 100 percent correct, Alun. Did you think I said otherwise? Do
you like to argue with people when they agree with you?

- Mike KB3EIA -

Clint wrote:

The new requirements *probably* will have no Morse code requirements,
ergo Morse is not really relevant to this thread.



They may or may not; if the FCC decides that no "no further change in the
license structure is required at this time" then of course that will be the
final
word on *that* matter, and we'll accept it and go on since they are the
ones that have the final say. I just couldn't help but notice how certain
ones
in here I think have such an overpowering agenda regarding the CW
part of the testing that it tends to take them over and govern, or at least
seriously influence, everything they have to remark about in ham radio.

I'm a general class operator; I realize by definition that means I had to
show knowledge in certain areas to prove I deserved recieving the next
higher license class than tech-plus; however, I did not demonstrate enough
skill and knowledge to warrant recieving the advanced class license.
Therefore,
advanced class operators *should* know more than I do, or at least as much.

That brings us to the sad truth that if an *extra* class license operator
doesn't
know how to calculate the length of a walf wave dipole on 40m (or whatever
frequency), that is a serious issue. I say that because calculating the
length of
an antenna, especially a halfwave dipole of ALL things, is and always WILL
be so basic to ham radio that it should be on page one of chapter one of
every study guide ever printed. Such matters is why I put such a strong
emphasis on putting more priority on written testing than that of the skills
of
translating a CW transmission.

Sad thing is, most the time I get on 75 meters and begin discussing ham
radio tech stuff, there is usually one heckler that harangues you about it and
makes light of the fact that you were talking about ham radio stuff and not what
the weather was like on a day 58 years ago while an old man sat on a porch
and peeled potatoes in the hot summer sun... true story. I actually was on
the airwaves a few weeks ago discussing the pros and cons how how to set up
a new 75 meter inverted V I was going to make at home... and as soon as
I finished the conversation with the other ham and he went off the air, a
couple of hams got in there and began talking to one another BASHING me for doing
so... can you imagine???

75 meters is a strange place. I usually don't go there for the reasons
you mention. I do contest and PSK31 there, but that's about it. And
yeah, they bitch about me too. But I love to have technical
conversations on the air - otherwise I run out of things to say pretty
quick!

The strangest/scariest think I ever heard on 75 was one ham who was in
pretty bad shape and talking to another about his health. He pretty
matter of fact noted that his doctor said it was only a day or two left
for him, and it sounded like it, rattles and wheezes. I thought he was
going to shift his coil right while I was listening.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Dan/W4NTI wrote:


What contests do you do? I don't remember you. Course I've only done them
for 30 years or so.

PAQSO, NEQP, Field day, North American. I tried the Ohio this year, but
conditions were bad. I've not been licensed too long, and sometimes op
our club station (W3YA)

- Mike KB3EIA -

N2EY wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:


N2EY wrote:


In article ,



(Larry Roll K3LT) writes:



I think that the most likely scenario is that they will do as you suggest,
and distill it down to two license classes, General and Extra. All current
Techs would be "grandfathered" to the General class, and the Extra will
remain the same, sans Element 1(a). This would be the easiest change
to accomplish from an administrative standpoint, and they wouldn't have
to even bother renaming the remaining license classes, which would only
risk causing resentment among current Extras. There could be, at most,
a requirement for current Techs to pass another written element, but the
grandfathering would be an easier fix.


ARRL asked for something very similar back in 1998 and FCC said no. (ARRL's
proposal would have given Novices and Tech Pluses instant upgrades to

General).

Such an instant upgrade has these problems:

1) A lot of screaming about "no giveaways"

Let's test your premise here, Jim. Would you support a one class system


in which all amateurs that have passed Novice, Tech, General or (of
course) Extra get an "instant upgrade" to Extra?


No. In fact, not just "no" but "HELL, NO!!"

Okay, now I know a little more where you stand on this. I wasn't sure if
you were being DA on it or what..... Wait a second... DA means Devil's
Advocate... other interpretations might not be so kind! 8^)


snip

Can anyone *prove* to me that the Extra written contains things a ham *must*
know to operate on the Extra-only subbands?

Nope! There is really not much reason to go from General to Extra
beyond personal satisfaction!

- Mike KB3EIA -

"Dan/W4NTI" w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com wrote in message
link.net...

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message
.com...

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
et...
I'm still trying to decide what to do. I do a fair bit of contesting,
and KB3EIA is quite a mouthfull at those times. It's not too bad CW
wise
(tho I haven't done CW contesting - maybe if I ever get good enough)

- Mike KB3EIA -


The way to get good at it is to jump in and do it anyway. The way to
start
is to listen to one station over and over until you finally pick out the
information and then to through your call sign in. Also never hesitate
to
send "PS QRS" when necessary. You can even specify the speed with "PS
QRS
10" or whatever you are comfortable with. Most will slow down.

I'm not particularly good at it myself but am running about 50% CW
contacts
on the ongoing California QSO party.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE


Good for you Dee D. I played in it myself. Got 147 phone and 194 on CW.

Dan/W4NTI


Although it was running about even most of the contest, later the voice
bands picked up and I ended with 95 voice and 78 CW.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"WA8ULX" wrote in message
...
What is NCI? it's the group that opposes morse code testing.

They are also the Group which doesnt have a CLUE about anything else
except
give it to me for nothing. These are probably the same group that will
start
NWI. As a matter of fact, one of there great supporters, and long time
Members,
has all ready suggested that the written be Dumbed Down even more.


ah, hm.. and I thought you didn't care about the CW testing issue anymore.
Lots of locked up hate and resentment there..... looks as though it's pushed
you to extreme exaggeration of the facts and in some cases false
characterizations.

Clint

--
"All history was a palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly
as often as necessary. In no case would it have been possible, once
the deed was done, to prove that any falsification had taken place...

....it was not even forgery. It was merely the substitution of one piece
of nonsense for another. Most of the material that you were dealing
with had no connection with anything in the real world, not even the
kind of connection that is contained in a direct lie. Statistics were just
as much a fantasy in thier original version as in thier rectified version."

- The totalitarian world of George Orwell's 1984
(or is it the slander & lie campaign strategy of
today's liberals???)

--

Sure can Clint. And you just made my point.

Dan/W4NTI



And what point would THAT be? the hams that did this were legally
licensed, had been for some time, and passed at least 13 wmp code
tests. So much for the "yahoo filter" theory.

Clint

--
"All history was a palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly
as often as necessary. In no case would it have been possible, once
the deed was done, to prove that any falsification had taken place...

....it was not even forgery. It was merely the substitution of one piece
of nonsense for another. Most of the material that you were dealing
with had no connection with anything in the real world, not even the
kind of connection that is contained in a direct lie. Statistics were just
as much a fantasy in thier original version as in thier rectified version."

- The totalitarian world of George Orwell's 1984
(or is it the slander & lie campaign strategy of
today's liberals???)

--
"Dan/W4NTI" w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com wrote in message
link.net...

"Clint" rattlehead at computron dot net wrote in message
...


The new requirements *probably* will have no Morse code requirements,
ergo Morse is not really relevant to this thread.


They may or may not; if the FCC decides that no "no further change in
the
license structure is required at this time" then of course that will be
the
final
word on *that* matter, and we'll accept it and go on since they are the
ones that have the final say. I just couldn't help but notice how
certain
ones
in here I think have such an overpowering agenda regarding the CW
part of the testing that it tends to take them over and govern, or at
least
seriously influence, everything they have to remark about in ham radio.

I'm a general class operator; I realize by definition that means I had
to
show knowledge in certain areas to prove I deserved recieving the next
higher license class than tech-plus; however, I did not demonstrate
enough
skill and knowledge to warrant recieving the advanced class license.
Therefore,
advanced class operators *should* know more than I do, or at least as
much.

That brings us to the sad truth that if an *extra* class license
operator
doesn't
know how to calculate the length of a walf wave dipole on 40m (or
whatever
frequency), that is a serious issue. I say that because calculating the
length of
an antenna, especially a halfwave dipole of ALL things, is and always
WILL
be so basic to ham radio that it should be on page one of chapter one of
every study guide ever printed. Such matters is why I put such a strong
emphasis on putting more priority on written testing than that of the
skills
of
translating a CW transmission.

Sad thing is, most the time I get on 75 meters and begin discussing ham
radio
tech stuff, there is usually one heckler that harangues you about it and
makes
light of the fact that you were talking about ham radio stuff and not
what
the
weather was like on a day 58 years ago while an old man sat on a porch
and peeled potatoes in the hot summer sun... true story. I actually was
on
the
airwaves a few weeks ago discussing the pros and cons how how to set up
a new 75 meter inverted V I was going to make at home... and as soon as
I finished the conversation with the other ham and he went off the air,
a
couple
of hams got in there and began talking to one another BASHING me for
doing
so... can you imagine???

Clint

In article , Dick Carroll
writes:

The FCC's goal, obviously, is to get as much of the administrative
burden of the ARS licensing system off their backs as possible, so I
look for them to do just that.


I don't think so. FCC's work at admininistring the ARS licensing can't
get to much a level than it currently is.

Here's about what I look for:

1) Combine Novice/Tech/Tech Plus into one license, probably Tech, with
some amount of lower HF band Fone and CW/Digital access. Might even
use the old Novice segments for their digital/CW segment. After all,
it's still the 'entry level' license.

2) Probably drop element 1 for Generals.

3) Leave Advanced alone and let attritition take care of it.

4) Leave Extra alone with a 5wpm code test. Should be 12wpm but
I doubt they'll back up at this late date.

I don't expect them to do this nor anything else before the
next rules review is due.

Dick:

Of course, there's always the remote possibility that the FCC will
take the easiest course of action, which is to make no further changes
to the ARS licensing structure and requirements at all. However,
this would seem to be almost impossible for them to get away with,
in light of the language of the Restructuring R&O. One can always
hope, but I'm 99% sure we'll see code testing go away. Of course,
when it does, Carl and the NCI will then be in the "hot seat" -- since
we'll now be able to sit back and wait for the technical/digital
revolution they've promised all along. Personally, I hope they're right,
but I don't have that kind of luck.

73 de Larry, K3LT

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Can anyone *prove* to me that the Extra written contains things a ham
*must*
know to operate on the Extra-only subbands?

Nope! There is really not much reason to go from General to Extra
beyond personal satisfaction!

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike:

In the past (the Pre-Restructuring Era), the reason for upgrading was that
increased operating privileges were the reward for gaining increased
technical knowledge and operating skill. The ARS seems to have taken
a clue from the rest of our dumbed-down society and abandoned this
philosophy.

73 de Larry, K3LT

ah, hm.. and I thought you didn't care about the CW testing issue anymore.

I dont but your just to Dumped Down to see the TREND.

Larry Roll K3LT wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:


Can anyone *prove* to me that the Extra written contains things a ham

*must*

know to operate on the Extra-only subbands?

Nope! There is really not much reason to go from General to Extra
beyond personal satisfaction!

- Mike KB3EIA -


Mike:

In the past (the Pre-Restructuring Era), the reason for upgrading was that
increased operating privileges were the reward for gaining increased
technical knowledge and operating skill. The ARS seems to have taken
a clue from the rest of our dumbed-down society and abandoned this
philosophy.

And what I'm thinking is that unless it means something again, they
might as well get rid of it. That little sliver of operating frequencies
is not worth it, if increased privileges are the measuring stick.

- Mike KB3EIA -

"Dan/W4NTI" w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com wrote in
link.net:

Clint, Clint, Clint. She was making a point of discussing the time.
Not the code, per se. She said all the 1X2s were issued BEFORE the
code was dropped. Do you have a comprehension problem too?

Dan/W4NTI

"Clint" rattlehead at computron dot net wrote in message
...
Exactly.

That was my point; make a post about back up batteries for
black-out ham radio operations, and you'll get them making
CW test remarks about it.

Make a post about feedline pro's and con's, and they'll
devolve it back to morse code testing.

Talk about what is the best background noise reducing
handheld radio for use on the toilet when you have
diahrrea.. and yep, it's all about morse code testing again.

No matter what, follow a thread long enough and they'll find
a way to use the most twisted path of logic to blame
NCI and the reduction & removal of morse code testing.

Was it, in fact, to blame for the shuttle disaster?

I digress.

Clint

"Alun Palmer" wrote in message
...
Mike Coslo wrote in
et:

Alun Palmer wrote:

"Clint" rattlehead at computron dot net wrote in
:


Man you got that right Mike. It was that way, decades ago.
The extra used to mean something. Now it means squat.

Don't believe me? Look at the before and after code gutting.
I was going to get a fancy 1X2 years ago. Glad I didn't now.

Dan/W4NTI

All the 1x2 sequentially assigned calls were gone long before
the 20wpm code was dropped.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE


The real observation here is to note a complaint about extra
class hams not knowing
what the length of a 1/2 wave dipole was on a given frequency;
has nothing to do
with sending and recieving morse code skill.

Kinda showed your colors there.

Clint





It was a dead giveaway. Anyone who thinks that 20wpm code
operating skill means you know all about dipoles has a serious
problem that no amount of discussion will ever change.

The new requirements *probably* will have no Morse code
requirements, ergo Morse is not really relevant to this
thread.

That an extra might have no idea about the length of a half
wave dipole
at 40 meters - or more importantly, precisely no idea on how to
calculate it - indicates a more serious problem to me.

- Mike KB3EIA -



But one that has nothing to do with 20wpm, which I didn't introduce
into the discussion






It looked to me like the post was saying no Extra would have been ignorant
about dipoles when the code test speed was 20wpm. If it meant something
else it might have been saying something logical, HI!

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
et...

And what I'm thinking is that unless it means something again, they
might as well get rid of it. That little sliver of operating frequencies
is not worth it, if increased privileges are the measuring stick.

- Mike KB3EIA -


Actually, the differences in privs from General to Extra are substantial.
With the FCC no longer issuing Advanced licenses, the only way to
gain access to the "Advanced sub-bands" is to upgrade to Extra.

I'd say that's a pretty good incentive.

73,
Carl - wk3c