|
Well, one certainly can't say there's any substantial difficulty involved!
Difficculty, they might as well just give the EXTRA to any one who ask for it. For that matter, they might as well give all the Licenses away. |
Dick Carroll wrote in
: Carl R. Stevenson wrote: "Mike Coslo" wrote in message et... And what I'm thinking is that unless it means something again, they might as well get rid of it. That little sliver of operating frequencies is not worth it, if increased privileges are the measuring stick. - Mike KB3EIA - Actually, the differences in privs from General to Extra are substantial. With the FCC no longer issuing Advanced licenses, the only way to gain access to the "Advanced sub-bands" is to upgrade to Extra. I'd say that's a pretty good incentive. Well, one certainly can't say there's any substantial difficulty involved! I think you're wrong about that Dick. As an EE, I wouldn't find it difficult, but I know plenty of Generals, and Techs for that matter, for whom the Extra class theory is seen as something very tough. Not everyone can be one of the intelligentsia! |
"WA8ULX" wrote in message ... Let me clear up the fog for you Clint. My point is the Extra ain't worth a damn any more. Dan/W4NTI Thats for sure, but in my case the only reason I upgraded was for the $250.00. And I got to take it from of a bunch of No-Code Dead Heads. Still havent used the EXTRA for the EXTRA band segments, probably never will. I mostly use them when I contest and/or chase DX on HF. Thats basically it.. In fact that is why I decided to upgrade years ago. Dan/W4NTI |
"WA8ULX" wrote in message ... Sure can Clint. And you just made my point. Dan/W4NTI Can you imagine the rude awaking these Knuckle Draggers will receive when they get on HF? The only thing I can compare the thought to would be meeting up with a couple hundred thousand W2OYs hi hi. Dan/W4NTI |
Your a big boy Clint. You can figure it out, if you really really try.
Dan/W4NTI "Clint" rattlehead at computron dot net wrote in message ... Sure can Clint. And you just made my point. Dan/W4NTI And what point would THAT be? the hams that did this were legally licensed, had been for some time, and passed at least 13 wmp code tests. So much for the "yahoo filter" theory. Clint -- "All history was a palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as necessary. In no case would it have been possible, once the deed was done, to prove that any falsification had taken place... ...it was not even forgery. It was merely the substitution of one piece of nonsense for another. Most of the material that you were dealing with had no connection with anything in the real world, not even the kind of connection that is contained in a direct lie. Statistics were just as much a fantasy in thier original version as in thier rectified version." - The totalitarian world of George Orwell's 1984 (or is it the slander & lie campaign strategy of today's liberals???) -- "Dan/W4NTI" w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com wrote in message link.net... "Clint" rattlehead at computron dot net wrote in message ... The new requirements *probably* will have no Morse code requirements, ergo Morse is not really relevant to this thread. They may or may not; if the FCC decides that no "no further change in the license structure is required at this time" then of course that will be the final word on *that* matter, and we'll accept it and go on since they are the ones that have the final say. I just couldn't help but notice how certain ones in here I think have such an overpowering agenda regarding the CW part of the testing that it tends to take them over and govern, or at least seriously influence, everything they have to remark about in ham radio. I'm a general class operator; I realize by definition that means I had to show knowledge in certain areas to prove I deserved recieving the next higher license class than tech-plus; however, I did not demonstrate enough skill and knowledge to warrant recieving the advanced class license. Therefore, advanced class operators *should* know more than I do, or at least as much. That brings us to the sad truth that if an *extra* class license operator doesn't know how to calculate the length of a walf wave dipole on 40m (or whatever frequency), that is a serious issue. I say that because calculating the length of an antenna, especially a halfwave dipole of ALL things, is and always WILL be so basic to ham radio that it should be on page one of chapter one of every study guide ever printed. Such matters is why I put such a strong emphasis on putting more priority on written testing than that of the skills of translating a CW transmission. Sad thing is, most the time I get on 75 meters and begin discussing ham radio tech stuff, there is usually one heckler that harangues you about it and makes light of the fact that you were talking about ham radio stuff and not what the weather was like on a day 58 years ago while an old man sat on a porch and peeled potatoes in the hot summer sun... true story. I actually was on the airwaves a few weeks ago discussing the pros and cons how how to set up a new 75 meter inverted V I was going to make at home... and as soon as I finished the conversation with the other ham and he went off the air, a couple of hams got in there and began talking to one another BASHING me for doing so... can you imagine??? Clint |
"Mike Coslo" wrote in message et... Dan/W4NTI wrote: What contests do you do? I don't remember you. Course I've only done them for 30 years or so. PAQSO, NEQP, Field day, North American. I tried the Ohio this year, but conditions were bad. I've not been licensed too long, and sometimes op our club station (W3YA) - Mike KB3EIA - Good show Mike. Sure I know W3YA. And this coming weekend is PA Qso Party. I intend to enter. What call you using, if your going to enter? I played in the California QP this weekend. Worked a bunch of them. Thats always a good one to get into. Tell the boys in PA to listen south. And pay attention to 40 also. Dan/W4NTI |
"WA8ULX" wrote in message ... As I said, glad I didn't now. I'll just keep what I got, and let folks wonder what I have. Cause there sure ain't no reason to brag about it. Dan/W4NTI Thats why these No-Coders run out and grab a 1x2 or 1x3.They think this will make people think they have been around awhile and know something. Your right Bruce. And that again proves one of my points. I never much cared for the Vanity program anyway. In my opinion it is just a sneaky way to charge for a license. Dan/W4NTI |
"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message .com... "Dan/W4NTI" w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com wrote in message link.net... "Dee D. Flint" wrote in message .com... "Mike Coslo" wrote in message et... I'm still trying to decide what to do. I do a fair bit of contesting, and KB3EIA is quite a mouthfull at those times. It's not too bad CW wise (tho I haven't done CW contesting - maybe if I ever get good enough) - Mike KB3EIA - The way to get good at it is to jump in and do it anyway. The way to start is to listen to one station over and over until you finally pick out the information and then to through your call sign in. Also never hesitate to send "PS QRS" when necessary. You can even specify the speed with "PS QRS 10" or whatever you are comfortable with. Most will slow down. I'm not particularly good at it myself but am running about 50% CW contacts on the ongoing California QSO party. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE Good for you Dee D. I played in it myself. Got 147 phone and 194 on CW. Dan/W4NTI Although it was running about even most of the contest, later the voice bands picked up and I ended with 95 voice and 78 CW. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE Great job Dee D. Wish I would have known you were on. I would have given you a listen. Hey Sweepstakes is my all time favorite contest. Ill be on CW for sure. And maybe phone also. Two diff weekends. Dan/W4NTI |
"Mike Coslo" wrote in message et... snip Can anyone *prove* to me that the Extra written contains things a ham *must* know to operate on the Extra-only subbands? Nope! There is really not much reason to go from General to Extra beyond personal satisfaction! - Mike KB3EIA - Not true Mike.....your a contester. See what I mean ? Dan/W4NTI |
"Larry Roll K3LT" wrote in message ... In article , Mike Coslo writes: Can anyone *prove* to me that the Extra written contains things a ham *must* know to operate on the Extra-only subbands? Nope! There is really not much reason to go from General to Extra beyond personal satisfaction! - Mike KB3EIA - Mike: In the past (the Pre-Restructuring Era), the reason for upgrading was that increased operating privileges were the reward for gaining increased technical knowledge and operating skill. The ARS seems to have taken a clue from the rest of our dumbed-down society and abandoned this philosophy. 73 de Larry, K3LT I've never thought of it that way Larry, but your 100% correct. Just look at Kim. Dan/W4NTI |
"Mike Coslo" wrote in message et... Larry Roll K3LT wrote: In article , Mike Coslo writes: Can anyone *prove* to me that the Extra written contains things a ham *must* know to operate on the Extra-only subbands? Nope! There is really not much reason to go from General to Extra beyond personal satisfaction! - Mike KB3EIA - Mike: In the past (the Pre-Restructuring Era), the reason for upgrading was that increased operating privileges were the reward for gaining increased technical knowledge and operating skill. The ARS seems to have taken a clue from the rest of our dumbed-down society and abandoned this philosophy. And what I'm thinking is that unless it means something again, they might as well get rid of it. That little sliver of operating frequencies is not worth it, if increased privileges are the measuring stick. - Mike KB3EIA - Wrong again Mike. Its a place to go to get away from the 'others'... hi. Dan/W4NTI |
"Larry Roll K3LT" wrote in message ... In article , Dick Carroll writes: The FCC's goal, obviously, is to get as much of the administrative burden of the ARS licensing system off their backs as possible, so I look for them to do just that. I don't think so. FCC's work at admininistring the ARS licensing can't get to much a level than it currently is. Here's about what I look for: 1) Combine Novice/Tech/Tech Plus into one license, probably Tech, with some amount of lower HF band Fone and CW/Digital access. Might even use the old Novice segments for their digital/CW segment. After all, it's still the 'entry level' license. 2) Probably drop element 1 for Generals. 3) Leave Advanced alone and let attritition take care of it. 4) Leave Extra alone with a 5wpm code test. Should be 12wpm but I doubt they'll back up at this late date. I don't expect them to do this nor anything else before the next rules review is due. Dick: Of course, there's always the remote possibility that the FCC will take the easiest course of action, which is to make no further changes to the ARS licensing structure and requirements at all. However, this would seem to be almost impossible for them to get away with, in light of the language of the Restructuring R&O. One can always hope, but I'm 99% sure we'll see code testing go away. Of course, when it does, Carl and the NCI will then be in the "hot seat" -- since we'll now be able to sit back and wait for the technical/digital revolution they've promised all along. Personally, I hope they're right, but I don't have that kind of luck. 73 de Larry, K3LT Forget it Larry. It ain't gonna happen. The puter folks may get into ham radio for the UHF / SHF linking aspects. Just to increase range. But that will be it. HF has no interest to them. Nor does conventional voice stuff. And, of course, forget CW. Basically what it amounts to, AND ALWAYS HAS. It takes a certain breed to be a real radio ham. And we are going away fast. Dan/W4NTI |
Alun Palmer wrote:
"Dan/W4NTI" w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com wrote in link.net: Clint, Clint, Clint. She was making a point of discussing the time. Not the code, per se. She said all the 1X2s were issued BEFORE the code was dropped. Do you have a comprehension problem too? Dan/W4NTI "Clint" rattlehead at computron dot net wrote in message ... Exactly. That was my point; make a post about back up batteries for black-out ham radio operations, and you'll get them making CW test remarks about it. Make a post about feedline pro's and con's, and they'll devolve it back to morse code testing. Talk about what is the best background noise reducing handheld radio for use on the toilet when you have diahrrea.. and yep, it's all about morse code testing again. No matter what, follow a thread long enough and they'll find a way to use the most twisted path of logic to blame NCI and the reduction & removal of morse code testing. Was it, in fact, to blame for the shuttle disaster? I digress. Clint "Alun Palmer" wrote in message ... Mike Coslo wrote in ia.net: Alun Palmer wrote: "Clint" rattlehead at computron dot net wrote in : Man you got that right Mike. It was that way, decades ago. The extra used to mean something. Now it means squat. Don't believe me? Look at the before and after code gutting. I was going to get a fancy 1X2 years ago. Glad I didn't now. Dan/W4NTI All the 1x2 sequentially assigned calls were gone long before the 20wpm code was dropped. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE The real observation here is to note a complaint about extra class hams not knowing what the length of a 1/2 wave dipole was on a given frequency; has nothing to do with sending and recieving morse code skill. Kinda showed your colors there. Clint It was a dead giveaway. Anyone who thinks that 20wpm code operating skill means you know all about dipoles has a serious problem that no amount of discussion will ever change. The new requirements *probably* will have no Morse code requirements, ergo Morse is not really relevant to this thread. That an extra might have no idea about the length of a half wave dipole at 40 meters - or more importantly, precisely no idea on how to calculate it - indicates a more serious problem to me. - Mike KB3EIA - But one that has nothing to do with 20wpm, which I didn't introduce into the discussion It looked to me like the post was saying no Extra would have been ignorant about dipoles when the code test speed was 20wpm. If it meant something else it might have been saying something logical, HI! I can vouch for that. I'm reasonably smart, and I really stink at Morse code. Morse code skills/knowledge are distinctly separtate from the RF skills/knowledge. I knew how to calculate a half wave dipole long before I knew any other Morse besides SOS. Do I get a medal now? 8^) Probably not. - Mike KB3EIA - |
Dan/W4NTI wrote:
I've never thought of it that way Larry, but your 100% correct. Just look at Kim. Speaking of.. I wonder if she's run off again? Her last couple of posts didn't present her in a very good mood. I mean plenty of people think I'm dumm, but I'm hardly ever called dispicable! 8^) I think there may be a pattern here! |
"Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message ...
"Mike Coslo" wrote in message et... And what I'm thinking is that unless it means something again, they might as well get rid of it. That little sliver of operating frequencies is not worth it, if increased privileges are the measuring stick. Actually, the differences in privs from General to Extra are substantial. Are they? Let's take a look... What additional frequency spectrum does a General get by upgrading to Extra? On VHF/UHF - nothing On MF - nothing On HF: 100 kHz of non-phone/image space on 4 bands. This amounts to ~8.5% of the 1182 kHz of non-phone/image space on the eight HF amateur bands. 350 kHz of phone/image space on 4 bands. This amounts to ~14.8% of the 2368 kHz of phone/image space on the eight HF amateur bands. Total: 450 kHz of space out of a total of 3550 kHz on the eight HF amateur bands. ~12.7% more space What additional frequency spectrum does an Advanced get by upgrading to Extra? On VHF/UHF - nothing On MF - nothing On HF: 100 kHz of non-phone/image space on 4 bands. This amounts to ~8.5% of the 1182 kHz of non-phone/image space on the eight HF amateur bands. 75 kHz of phone/image space on 3 bands. This amounts to ~3.2% of the 2368 kHz of phone/image space on the eight HF amateur bands. Total: 175 kHz of space out of a total of 3550 kHz on the eight HF amateur bands. ~4.9% more space Of the 3550 kHz in the eight HF amateur bands, 66.7% - almost exactly two-thirds - is allocated to phone/image, while slightly less than one-third is non-phone/image space. With the FCC no longer issuing Advanced licenses, the only way to gain access to the "Advanced sub-bands" is to upgrade to Extra. Said subbands consist of 275 kHz on four bands, all of it phone/image space. I'd say that's a pretty good incentive. There's also the spiffy callsigns. But it all depends on what it is a ham wants to do. Back before restructuring, the ham who wasn't interested in phone/image had no reason to get an Advanced. And the ham who wasn't interested in CW/data had relatively little reason to get an Extra. 73 de Jim, N2EY |
Mike Coslo wrote in message . net...
N2EY wrote: In article , Mike Coslo writes: N2EY wrote: In article , (Larry Roll K3LT) writes: I think that the most likely scenario is that they will do as you suggest, and distill it down to two license classes, General and Extra. All current Techs would be "grandfathered" to the General class, and the Extra will remain the same, sans Element 1(a). This would be the easiest change to accomplish from an administrative standpoint, and they wouldn't have to even bother renaming the remaining license classes, which would only risk causing resentment among current Extras. There could be, at most, a requirement for current Techs to pass another written element, but the grandfathering would be an easier fix. ARRL asked for something very similar back in 1998 and FCC said no. (ARRL's proposal would have given Novices and Tech Pluses instant upgrades to General). Such an instant upgrade has these problems: 1) A lot of screaming about "no giveaways" Let's test your premise here, Jim. Would you support a one class system in which all amateurs that have passed Novice, Tech, General or (of course) Extra get an "instant upgrade" to Extra? No. In fact, not just "no" but "HELL, NO!!" Okay, now I know a little more where you stand on this. I wasn't sure if you were being DA on it or what..... Wait a second... DA means Devil's Advocate... other interpretations might not be so kind! 8^) Devil's Advocate I sometimes am. snip Can anyone *prove* to me that the Extra written contains things a ham *must* know to operate on the Extra-only subbands? Nope! There is really not much reason to go from General to Extra beyond personal satisfaction! Not what I meant. My point is simply this: The code test has been deemed "unnecessary" by some under the reasoning that a ham doesn't absolutley have to know the code in order to operate an amateur station safely and legally. The Tech license and the R&O for 98-143 are frequently pointed to as proof of this. But by that same logic, there is nothing (or very very little) in the Extra *test* that is absolutely necessary for a ham to know in order to operate an amateur station safely and legally. Proof of this is easy - the only operating privileges that an Extra gets you that a General doesn't are more kHz of 4 HF bands. No new bands, no new modes, no more power. So most if not all of the Extra written test is therefore "unnecessary" by the very same logic that deems the code test to be "unnecessary". So what we have is essentially this: The code test is held to a different standard than the writtens by some folks. They think it's OK to require people take more and more written tests to get more privileges, but it's not OK to require even a basic 5 wpm code test for any license. Some may say "but the written test supports the basis and purpose of amateur radio as a technical service" - but can they point to anyone who became "more technical" because they were required to take more written tests? 73 de Jim, N2EY |
"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
... Dan/W4NTI wrote: I've never thought of it that way Larry, but your 100% correct. Just look at Kim. Speaking of.. I wonder if she's run off again? Her last couple of posts didn't present her in a very good mood. I mean plenty of people think I'm dumm, but I'm hardly ever called dispicable! 8^) I think there may be a pattern here! Did I misspell despicable? Anyway, no, I've not "run off" and my "bad mood" (a purely interpreted opinion because I have not been in a bad mood) is a result of being pretty damned bored with the same 'ol same 'ol in this newsgroup. My reason for being on the computer here at home, though, is at an end--or at least for the moment. I've completed one project but got called the other day for another... We'll see... Oh, and I have to ask just to see what your answer is: what "pattern" are you stretching for? Kim W5TIT |
Dan/W4NTI wrote:
"Mike Coslo" wrote in message et... Dan/W4NTI wrote: What contests do you do? I don't remember you. Course I've only done them for 30 years or so. PAQSO, NEQP, Field day, North American. I tried the Ohio this year, but conditions were bad. I've not been licensed too long, and sometimes op our club station (W3YA) - Mike KB3EIA - Good show Mike. Sure I know W3YA. And this coming weekend is PA Qso Party. I intend to enter. What call you using, if your going to enter? I'll be at the mountaintop using W3YA, Centre County We're on 40 a lot. I'll be the control op some of the time for newbies, and hanging out for the hams that don't have a home station. Once in a while, I'll get to operate even. I'll keep an ear out for you. - Mike KB3EIA - |
Dan/W4NTI wrote:
"Mike Coslo" wrote in message et... Larry Roll K3LT wrote: In article , Mike Coslo writes: Can anyone *prove* to me that the Extra written contains things a ham *must* know to operate on the Extra-only subbands? Nope! There is really not much reason to go from General to Extra beyond personal satisfaction! - Mike KB3EIA - Mike: In the past (the Pre-Restructuring Era), the reason for upgrading was that increased operating privileges were the reward for gaining increased technical knowledge and operating skill. The ARS seems to have taken a clue from the rest of our dumbed-down society and abandoned this philosophy. And what I'm thinking is that unless it means something again, they might as well get rid of it. That little sliver of operating frequencies is not worth it, if increased privileges are the measuring stick. - Mike KB3EIA - Wrong again Mike. Its a place to go to get away from the 'others'... hi. Hmm, you just might have a point there, Dan! - Mike KB3EIA - |
Kim W5TIT wrote:
"Mike Coslo" wrote in message ... Dan/W4NTI wrote: I've never thought of it that way Larry, but your 100% correct. Just look at Kim. Speaking of.. I wonder if she's run off again? Her last couple of posts didn't present her in a very good mood. I mean plenty of people think I'm dumm, but I'm hardly ever called dispicable! 8^) I think there may be a pattern here! Did I misspell despicable? Okay by my spell checker! snippage Oh, and I have to ask just to see what your answer is: what "pattern" are you stretching for? Since I've been here, You have gotten really angry (bored?) with someone and quit posting for a while. Then you've returned and started posting again. Nothing sinister here. - Mike KB3EIA - |
"Dan/W4NTI" w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com wrote in message k.net... Hey Sweepstakes is my all time favorite contest. Ill be on CW for sure. And maybe phone also. Two diff weekends. Dan/W4NTI This year the CW one falls on my OM's birthday so I may or may not get on it this year. However next year, his birthday is not on the weekend. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
"N2EY" wrote in message om... Back before restructuring, the ham who wasn't interested in phone/image had no reason to get an Advanced. And the ham who wasn't interested in CW/data had relatively little reason to get an Extra. 73 de Jim, N2EY Except that I found very early on that a lot of the more interesting DX tended to be in what are the Extra subbands in the US. So I set my sights on getting the Extra for that reason. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
the EXTRA for the EXTRA band segments, probably never will. I mostly use them when I contest and/or chase DX on HF. Thats basically it.. In fact that is why I decided to upgrade years ago. Having the extra license means that I can rove up and down an entire phone band at will, and not having to stop at an advanced or general subband edge. No forbidden ham bands.... And I do rove during contests. I don't compete, but I work the contesters to see how far my signal propagates, etc.... Contests provide a steady stream of short QSOs. |
Dick Carroll wrote:
You view the situation as an EE who didn't need to study to work out any of the technical problems on the Extra exam, few that there were. Most applicants have the singleminded goal of passing the exam, and learning beyond that goal is not only unnecessary, it gets in the way of the goal at hand. So they naturally just don't do it. The curent method of testing clearly facilitates that position. I'm a EE, and like any reasonably successful college student, I still made use of the avaliable resources (the question pool) to prepare for the (at the time I took them) elements 4A and 4B. Found a few holes in my knowledge, and filled them in for at least long enough to score well on the tests (missed 1 on 4A, 2 on 4B IIRC). Got the CSCEs, and then the extra on Restructuring Day. Most students only study what is expected to be on the exams. Thus, I could solve calculus exam problems (take the intergral of (csc x^5)/(tan x^2 -1) dx) but I still never got a good understanding of how to use calculus to solve a real world problem. Recently went looking for a "calculus for dummies" type book, but all they had was how to do exam problems. Been there, done that. |
"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
et... Kim W5TIT wrote: "Mike Coslo" wrote in message ... Dan/W4NTI wrote: I've never thought of it that way Larry, but your 100% correct. Just look at Kim. Speaking of.. I wonder if she's run off again? Her last couple of posts didn't present her in a very good mood. I mean plenty of people think I'm dumm, but I'm hardly ever called dispicable! 8^) I think there may be a pattern here! Did I misspell despicable? Okay by my spell checker! snippage Oh, and I have to ask just to see what your answer is: what "pattern" are you stretching for? Since I've been here, You have gotten really angry (bored?) with someone and quit posting for a while. Then you've returned and started posting again. Nothing sinister here. - Mike KB3EIA - So, you're so into this medium that you're of the belief you can translate actions into behavioral observations? Eh? I just ain't into the medium, Mike. I have gotten "really" angry, eh? You probably need to get away from your keyboard for a while, Mike. Kim W5TIT |
|
Could the trend also be called progress?
No its not progress, a better term is Dumbing Down Will it matter after BPL? No it will be the just REWARDS for the No-Coders. |
Dick Carroll wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote: Kim W5TIT wrote: "Mike Coslo" wrote in message ... Dan/W4NTI wrote: I've never thought of it that way Larry, but your 100% correct. Just look at Kim. Speaking of.. I wonder if she's run off again? Her last couple of posts didn't present her in a very good mood. I mean plenty of people think I'm dumm, but I'm hardly ever called dispicable! 8^) I think there may be a pattern here! Did I misspell despicable? Daffy Duck said it best! Sylvester the Cat could do a pretty good "Deeee-shpick-ubble" too! - Mike KB3EIA - |
Kim W5TIT wrote:
So, you're so into this medium that you're of the belief you can translate actions into behavioral observations? Eh? I just ain't into the medium, Mike. I have gotten "really" angry, eh? ? |
Dick Carroll wrote:
But.....how about all the Extras out there who have successfully proceeded through the same system and emerged with so little knowledge that they have no idea of even how to design and build a simple *1/2* wave dipole? With little or nothing beyond the question pools in their libraries, many won't even know how or where to look it up. And when(if) the day comes that won't be required to copy ANY Morse code,one of the most used modes in ham radio, at the most basic speed? Understand that I'm not saying they shouldn't be hams, nor that they shouldn't be allowed some HF access. We all start somewhere. But to allow them licensing into the top echelon of amateurs is ludicrous and negates all that ham radio is supposed to stand for. After I became an Extra, there was a time when I felt a little odd about it. I knew all the test questions, and a lot more, but my operation skills were really not that good. I also saw some Extras both before and after I got my ticket who were really really green, and needed tutoring in some real basics. I mean real operational basics. The half wave/quarter wave dipole thing is no joke, even if we make fun of it. The top level should be just that. As many people find out after they leave college, there is more to life than just taking tests. Experience should count for something. - Mike KB3EIA - |
Dick Carroll wrote in
: Robert Casey wrote: Dick Carroll wrote: You view the situation as an EE who didn't need to study to work out any of the technical problems on the Extra exam, few that there were. Most applicants have the singleminded goal of passing the exam, and learning beyond that goal is not only unnecessary, it gets in the way of the goal at hand. So they naturally just don't do it. The curent method of testing clearly facilitates that position. I'm a EE, and like any reasonably successful college student, I still made use of the avaliable resources (the question pool) to prepare for the (at the time I took them) elements 4A and 4B. Found a few holes in my knowledge, and filled them in for at least long enough to score well on the tests (missed 1 on 4A, 2 on 4B IIRC). Got the CSCEs, and then the extra on Restructuring Day. Most students only study what is expected to be on the exams. Thus, I could solve calculus exam problems (take the intergral of (csc x^5)/(tan x^2 -1) dx) but I still never got a good understanding of how to use calculus to solve a real world problem. Recently went looking for a "calculus for dummies" type book, but all they had was how to do exam problems. Been there, done that. And obviously it wasn't a problemm and hasn't caused any problem, for you and others similarly situated, nor for the ARS. But.....how about all the Extras out there who have successfully proceeded through the same system and emerged with so little knowledge that they have no idea of even how to design and build a simple *1/2* wave dipole? With little or nothing beyond the question pools in their libraries, many won't even know how or where to look it up. And when(if) the day comes that won't be required to copy ANY Morse code,one of the most used modes in ham radio, at the most basic speed? Which will affect their comprehension of dipoles neither one way or the other. Your linking of CW ability to comprehension of radio theory would be frightening if it wasn't hilarious! Understand that I'm not saying they shouldn't be hams, nor that they shouldn't be allowed some HF access. We all start somewhere. But to allow them licensing into the top echelon of amateurs is ludicrous and negates all that ham radio is supposed to stand for. In short, it reduces the ARS to CB status. Your thinking is so completely addled that I hardly know what to say in reply. |
Dick Carroll wrote in
: Alun Palmer wrote: Dick Carroll wrote in : Robert Casey wrote: Dick Carroll wrote: You view the situation as an EE who didn't need to study to work out any of the technical problems on the Extra exam, few that there were. Most applicants have the singleminded goal of passing the exam, and learning beyond that goal is not only unnecessary, it gets in the way of the goal at hand. So they naturally just don't do it. The curent method of testing clearly facilitates that position. I'm a EE, and like any reasonably successful college student, I still made use of the avaliable resources (the question pool) to prepare for the (at the time I took them) elements 4A and 4B. Found a few holes in my knowledge, and filled them in for at least long enough to score well on the tests (missed 1 on 4A, 2 on 4B IIRC). Got the CSCEs, and then the extra on Restructuring Day. Most students only study what is expected to be on the exams. Thus, I could solve calculus exam problems (take the intergral of (csc x^5)/(tan x^2 -1) dx) but I still never got a good understanding of how to use calculus to solve a real world problem. Recently went looking for a "calculus for dummies" type book, but all they had was how to do exam problems. Been there, done that. And obviously it wasn't a problemm and hasn't caused any problem, for you and others similarly situated, nor for the ARS. But.....how about all the Extras out there who have successfully proceeded through the same system and emerged with so little knowledge that they have no idea of even how to design and build a simple *1/2* wave dipole? With little or nothing beyond the question pools in their libraries, many won't even know how or where to look it up. And when(if) the day comes that won't be required to copy ANY Morse code,one of the most used modes in ham radio, at the most basic speed? Which will affect their comprehension of dipoles neither one way or the other. Your linking of CW ability to comprehension of radio theory would be frightening if it wasn't hilarious! Understand that I'm not saying they shouldn't be hams, nor that they shouldn't be allowed some HF access. We all start somewhere. But to allow them licensing into the top echelon of amateurs is ludicrous and negates all that ham radio is supposed to stand for. In short, it reduces the ARS to CB status. Your thinking is so completely addled that I hardly know what to say in reply. To quote a famous person, "There you go again!" The minute I mention MOrse code, suddenly I'm all addled. Right. Only when you try to link passing a Morse code test with ability to understand theory |
In article , "Dee D. Flint"
writes: "N2EY" wrote in message . com... Back before restructuring, the ham who wasn't interested in phone/image had no reason to get an Advanced. And the ham who wasn't interested in CW/data had relatively little reason to get an Extra. 73 de Jim, N2EY Except that I found very early on that a lot of the more interesting DX tended to be in what are the Extra subbands in the US. So I set my sights on getting the Extra for that reason. Of course! Those parts could also be very productive in contests because of the reduced crowding, My point was simply that the Advanced did not give any more CW/data privileges - the incentive was all 'phone. Some folks make a big deal about how "tough", "theoretical" and "mathematical" the old Advanced written was. Supposedly tougher than the Extra, yada yada yada. But back in 1968, when I was at the FCC office for the General, the examiner said "why not try the Advanced while you're here?" (Could not do Extra because back then it had a 2 year experience requirement). So I took it and passed easily even though I had not studied for it at all. I was 14 and it was the summer between 8th and 9th grades. Not a big deal even then because I knew of 12 year old Extras back then. 73 de Jim, N2EY |
After I became an Extra, there was a time when I felt a little odd about it. I knew all the test questions, and a lot more, but my operation skills were really not that good. I also saw some Extras both before and after I got my ticket who were really really green, and needed tutoring in some real basics. I mean real operational basics. The half wave/quarter wave dipole thing is no joke, even if we make fun of it. The top level should be just that. As many people find out after they leave college, there is more to life than just taking tests. Don't you know it! When I graduated college with a BSEE, I was pretty much your standard issue geek/nerd, short on the social skills and ability to handle office politics. Which doesn't come up in college at all. But after years of working experience and some help from various good friends/mentors, you eventually learn it. In college, if it doesn't show up on an exam, you need not learn it to eventually graduate. I have heard that that is not true for PHD levels, where social/political skills are vital. Similar skills needed to get good reviews/ avoid layoffs from managers in industry. I've been told that I'm less nerdy and better at the office politics nowadays. ;-) Not that I'm likely to turn to the dark side and become a manager :-) |
Alun Palmer wrote:
Only when you try to link passing a Morse code test with ability to understand theory I suppose the ability to read and write would be required to copy code, but aside from that, a chimp might be able to do it. But I doubt that a chimp would understand how to build a dipole, or even know why he'd want to.... Of course some CBers might be described as chimps.... ;-) |
Perhaps we should have a two class system, with only Generals and Extras? Dang....a two tier license structure not mandated by the government? Heaven forbid...hi. There should be some sort of beginner's license that an average 14 year old honor roll student can get. Just like the cigarette companies, get them while they're young. ;-) |
In article , Mike Coslo
writes: In the past (the Pre-Restructuring Era), the reason for upgrading was that increased operating privileges were the reward for gaining increased technical knowledge and operating skill. The ARS seems to have taken a clue from the rest of our dumbed-down society and abandoned this philosophy. And what I'm thinking is that unless it means something again, they might as well get rid of it. That little sliver of operating frequencies is not worth it, if increased privileges are the measuring stick. - Mike KB3EIA - Mike: True, if you're talking about the difference between Advanced and Extra under the Pre-Restructuring system. In that system, the motivation to upgrade to Extra was to gain the International DX "windows" on phone and CW, plus the benefit of the 1x2 and 2x1 callsigns, and the "status" that went with being an Amateur Extra. I considered that to be well worth the effort required to pass Elements 1(c) and 2(e). However, "status" among hams is now Politically Incorrect, so we must now endure the "socialized" licensing system we now have in the ARS. Personally, I didn't have too many problems with the No-code Tech concept, except for the fact that even though it literally gave away 97% of all amateur operating privileges, it only led to greater expectations of even more dumbing-down. 73 de Larry, K3LT |
In article , "Dan/W4NTI"
w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com writes: Mike: In the past (the Pre-Restructuring Era), the reason for upgrading was that increased operating privileges were the reward for gaining increased technical knowledge and operating skill. The ARS seems to have taken a clue from the rest of our dumbed-down society and abandoned this philosophy. 73 de Larry, K3LT I've never thought of it that way Larry, but your 100% correct. Just look at Kim. Dan/W4NTI Dan: YOU look at her. I just had dinner. 73 de Larry, K3LT |
In article , "Dan/W4NTI"
w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com writes: Of course, there's always the remote possibility that the FCC will take the easiest course of action, which is to make no further changes to the ARS licensing structure and requirements at all. However, this would seem to be almost impossible for them to get away with, in light of the language of the Restructuring R&O. One can always hope, but I'm 99% sure we'll see code testing go away. Of course, when it does, Carl and the NCI will then be in the "hot seat" -- since we'll now be able to sit back and wait for the technical/digital revolution they've promised all along. Personally, I hope they're right, but I don't have that kind of luck. 73 de Larry, K3LT Forget it Larry. It ain't gonna happen. The puter folks may get into ham radio for the UHF / SHF linking aspects. Just to increase range. But that will be it. HF has no interest to them. Nor does conventional voice stuff. And, of course, forget CW. Basically what it amounts to, AND ALWAYS HAS. It takes a certain breed to be a real radio ham. And we are going away fast. Dan/W4NTI Dan: Yeah, I'm afraid it's true. The irony is that some of the most technically- inclined YOUNG hams I've known have been those who were eager and willing to respond to the code learning/testing challenge. It just may have been the one thing that would have motivated more young people to become hams. 73 de Larry, K3LT |
N2EY wrote:
But back in 1968, when I was at the FCC office for the General, the examiner said "why not try the Advanced while you're here?" (Could not do Extra because back then it had a 2 year experience requirement). Question 1: Were you discriminated against by such a rule? Since you lived through such a thing, your input would be worthwhile. So I took it and passed easily even though I had not studied for it at all. I was 14 and it was the summer between 8th and 9th grades. Not a big deal even then because I knew of 12 year old Extras back then. I do believe there is a "toughness effect" that is related to how much trouble a person may have had at the time. They remember that it was fairly hard for them then, so it remained difficult, even though the person learned much more over the years. And since they know a lot now, the old test must have been tough. Kind of like when I went back to my old elementary school a year or so ago. I remembered how big the place was, and how big a deal it was to walk from one end of the school to the other. If I hadn't gone back and seen just how small the place was, my perception would have been forever skewed as to it's size and how intimidating it was to a little kid such as I was. - Mike KB3EIA - |
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