In article , "Carl R. Stevenson"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , "Carl R. Stevenson"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , "Carl R. Stevenson"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
[snip]

One of the big problems is the "nobody loses/nobody gets a windfall"
paradigm.

The NCI and NCVEC Petitions are "nobody loses/nobody gets a windfall"
propositions ... since a tech now gets HF privs if he/she passes a 5
wpm
code test, the elimination of the test would not be a "windfall" if
all
techs got the same privs as the old "TechPlus" ...

Everything else stays the same.

Yup. And so we wind up with a continuation of the VHF/UHF heavy, HF/MF
light
entry level setup that is an artifact of the old S25.5.

I doubt that ... I expect that a very large percentage of techs will
rapidly
upgrade to at least general, if not extra, once the code test is gone.

Maybe - but look at what has happened with the Tech Plus:

It's been 3-1/2 years since restructuring.

No new Tech Pluses in all that time.

All existing Tech Pluses changed to Techs when renewing or vanity call
granted.

Many Tech Pluses needed no additional testing at all to get a General.

Yet we still have about 50% of pre-restructuring Tech Pluses on the
books.Which
means many of the existing Tech Pluses simply haven't yet bothered to
upgrade
to General.

But by your own figuring, (about) 50% of them HAVE ...

You misinterpret what I wrote, Carl.

The number Tech Pluses is dropping for four reasons:

1) Expirations
2) Vanity calls
3) Renewal as Techs
4) Upgrades

The number of Tech Pluses today is down about 50% from the pre-restructuring
numbers for all of the above reasons, not just upgrades.

The idea of "eliminate the code test and give techs "techplus" privs is
logical, takes nothing away from anyone, and gives nobody a "freebie."

From the standpoint of written testing, anyway.

It's not a "freebie" in any way ... current Tech+ and "Tech with code
credit" have access to (some) HF ... if the code test is no longer a
requirement for HF access, it's only fair that Techs have access ...
they've passed the same written as (most) Tech+ ... (I would find it
hard to believe that "old Techs" who had credit for both 5 wpm and
the full General written wouldn't have upgraded to AT LEAST
General ...

Obviously some have and some haven't. See above.

While you may find it hard to believe, nevertheless it is a fact.

Note also how few hams have upgraded to Extra. I recall being told that, even
with medical waivers, the code test was the main "barrier" to more Extras. That
alleged "barrier" is long gone - yet we have over 225,000 US hams who have not
gone for Extra, even though all it would take for them to get the Extra was a
single written test.

Didja know that some time back QCWA (you're a member, I'm not, even though
I'm
"qualified") asked FCC to grant all pre-Nov.22-1968 Generals and Advanceds
a
free upgrade to Extra? Talk about freebies!

Yes ... I believe that was in their comments in 98-143 and NCI opposed
it, along with the NCVECs ... we both said, "If they want to upgrade, they
should have to take the written element(s) that they need to get there. No
freebies!"

Of course. And their counter-argument was that it wasn't a freebie at all -
they'd been considered worthy of full privileges before Nov.22, 1968, so why
not now?

In the case of NCVEC, there may be more petitions and proposals. They
have
already hinted at same.

I'm not part of that group, so I can't speak for them ... if they file a
petition
seeking to water down the writtens or expand the phone bands, I'll oppose
it vigorously (personally).

Same here. But does Fred often take no for an answer? He sure is used to
getting his way.

There is more to the NCVECs than Fred ... I would expect the ARRL rep
to oppose such an action ...

The ARRL rep did not oppose NCVECs petition to dump Element 1 - instead, he
abstained. Same thing could happen in other petitions.

And even if ARRL opposes, Fred could still get his way with NCVEC. Has NCVEC
ever gone against one of his ideas and stopped him?

I think these proposals fully meet the "nobody loses/nobody gets a
windfall" paradigm.

Some would say that getting full privileges with no code test was a
windfall, but I'm not gonna go there....

The governments of the world don't seem to hold that view, so you'd be
up against the "heavy hitters."

The governments of the world don't make FCC rules.

The FCC was part of one of those governments of the world that
supported the elimination of the requirement at WRC-03 ...

Well, there you have it.

How would you feel if it was proposed that all Advanceds get an instant
upgrade
to Extra with no additional testing?

I'd oppose it ... there's a point to the additional written test for Extra,
and
without having passed it, you're not qualified.

Why not?

A General or Advanced class ham can do everything that an Extra can except:

- certain VE functions
- obtain certain vanity calls
- use certain small slices of four HF bands.

There are no modes, bands or power levels restricted to Extras only. No
technology that only Extras can use.

So what makes a General unqualified and an Extra qualified?

(Before you take another
tack here, there IS no point to Morse testing ... so it doesn't really count
as a qualification, Element 1 is a vestigial thing that the FCC had to keep in
order to not be in derrogation of the ITU Radio Regs, not because it was
a truly rational, justifiable "qualification" ...)

In your opinion, that is.

But even if Element 1 remains, it's the same element for both Generals and
Extras. No additional qualifications. And that goes back to 1990 and the
medical waivers.

So it all comes down to the writtens, whether Element 1 goes or stays.

Main point is that between those two constrainsts, very little change
in
the writtens or basic structure is possible.

And I think the three classes of license are reasonable and appropriate.
Tech becomes the "entry" license, general is "mid-grade," and extra is
"top." I don't see anything wrong with that ...

That's essentially what we have now.

If it a'int broke, don't fix it ... the only thing that's "broke" is that
they haven't yet eliminated the Morse test now that they're free to do so.

My point is that some folks are likely to say it *is* broke, even if Element 1
goes away.

Take a look at the recent dropoff in the number of new Techs in the past two
months since the new Tech Q&A pool was put in place. The total number of US
hams has dropped by a few thousand since July 1, due mainly to a drop in the
number of new Techs.

Hopefully this is just an anomaly. But suppose it isn't - and suppose that
Element 1 is dropped and the numbers still don't rise. In such a case, how do
we counter those who will want to water down the writtens even more than they
are now?

73 de Jim, N2EY

Ah, the agenda *again*.

doesn't take long from the time you guys set up the trap to springing it
on the cw test issue.


Did I mention anything about CW, I dont think so.

Do you guys dream about morse code tests?



Look lid you still dont get it, I am well aware the CW test is gone, my
complaint still is the Give away Written.

But suppose it isn't - and suppose that
Element 1 is dropped and the numbers still don't rise. In such a case, how do
we counter those who will want to water down the writtens even more than they
are now?

73 de Jim, N2EY

My point exactly, Im not even concerned about CW Testing. Im more concerned
about the Written.Since we have all ready thrown the Doors open, the next
logical step is to Dumb Down the written even more. Which Im sure is probably
all ready in the works.

"WA8ULX" wrote in message
...
Ah, the agenda *again*.

doesn't take long from the time you guys set up the trap to springing it
on the cw test issue.


Did I mention anything about CW, I dont think so.

"cw test issue", bonehead. You said:

"Not hardly Karl, these people are the Knuckle Dragging NCI Members I hear."


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well, genius, here is the statement you posted...

Not hardly Karl, these people are the Knuckle Dragging NCI Members I hear.

What is NCI? it's the group that opposes morse code testing... well, then, I
guess by definition then you are posting about CW aren't you? HM? Just
like if I were to post a slur against the ACLU then I guess by definition I
am attacking what that organization stands for, hm?????

You thought you won the race but it's because you showed up to the
wrong track and nobody was racing against you.

Clint

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Reasons why it sucks to be a liberal....
file overrun error

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"WA8ULX" wrote in message
...
Ah, the agenda *again*.

doesn't take long from the time you guys set up the trap to springing it
on the cw test issue.


Did I mention anything about CW, I dont think so.

You're not fooling anybody.

--

Reasons why it sucks to be a liberal....
file overrun error

--
"WA8ULX" wrote in message
...
Do you guys dream about morse code tests?



Look lid you still dont get it, I am well aware the CW test is gone, my
complaint still is the Give away Written.

"WA8ULX" wrote in message
...

My point exactly, Im not even concerned about CW Testing.

AH....

That's why 90% of your posts attack the "knuckle dragging NCI"
and whimpering about those who oppose CW testing, mixed with
such insults as "lazy".

--

Reasons why it sucks to be a liberal....
file overrun error

--

What is NCI? it's the group that opposes morse code testing.

They are also the Group which doesnt have a CLUE about anything else except
give it to me for nothing. These are probably the same group that will start
NWI. As a matter of fact, one of there great supporters, and long time Members,
has all ready suggested that the written be Dumbed Down even more.

That's why 90% of your posts attack the "knuckle dragging NCI"
and whimpering about those who oppose CW testing, mixed with
such insults as "lazy".


Its because some of there own membership has suggested it.