"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , "Kim W5TIT"

writes:


Of course not. But I can accurately say that there is no need to roll
everyone who wants to see an end to the test element, into the "no CW
use"
minority (note I said minority), either.

Agreed! Point is, however, that the "no one" statement is simply not
correct.


Let's recall that you are far more into definition than I am, Jim. When I
say "no one" it may not mean *everyone* but it means enough to be counted as
no one. I believe that the number of folks who wish to see an end to CW in
the bands of the ARS are so miniscule that the projection of that ever being
a reality is moot.


Anyone, *anyone* who allows theirself (bad English) to get all in a huff
about CW use going away or being legislated out of ham radio is being
foolish.

Not necessarily. Not after seeing the mode (not just the test) attacked
the way
I have.


I've seen it attacked also. But I've never for a moment given it any kind
of merit--the mode simply would never be banned from the ARS. Has any mode
ever been banned? Sure, rules have changed; rules pertaining to power
limits, rules pertaining to test requirements, rules pertaining even (I
believe) to *where* in the bands that different modes are allowed or not.
But I doubt a mode would ever be banned, once implemented and in place.


There are a few who have been proponents of seeing the end of CW;
and when I see those posts, I yawn and go on.

That's *you* - not everyone.


I can't imagine anyone giving merit to the thought that a mode would be
banned. Maybe I am being unrealistic. Using history as a perspective of
measurement; I don't see it ever happening.


There will never be an end to
CW use, and it would never be banned from use in the ham bands...it just
wouldn't. I think it would be unrealistic to think it would.

I hope you are right about that. Some of us are not about to "trust to the
kindness of strangers" however


I think I believe it enough that I'll eat my sock (the right foot sock) if
it ever happens.


And, if it
was based off a majority of users of the bands, I rest assured knowing
that
most would not support an end to CW use.

Not now, anyway.


My term "most" includes those people who now and in the future have any kind
of romantic thought about the ARS. And, I think most do. There are the few
who would see an end to something they don't like. But, given the desire
and will of most ARS folks, CW--nor any mode for that matter--will
disappear. Now, if I am wrong about history just let me know and I *may*
change my belief.


I think those who are in the
minority are there mostly for the shock value of it.

Perhaps.

But not too long ago, the mere suggestion of *any* class of ham license
with no
code test would have gathered almost no support. And the idea of the total
abolition of code testing would have been discarded with the claim that
*no-one* wanted all code testing to end.


I can see requirements changing, etc. But, I cannot see the FCC ever
saying, "OK, no more ______ as a legal mode in the ARS."


They way to outlaw something is little by little. Remember your concerns
about
the restrictions on privacy brought about by 'homeland security'
responses?
Little by little....


I have never doubted that the government would do as they have done. I
daresay they were doing under different guises for many years now. Nothing
different there. It's all about expectation. The expectation that the FCC
would ever ban a mode is minimal for me.


There was a time when AM was king of the 'phone modes. Then SSB came a
long and
took center stage, while AM was relegated to niche status. Most folks said
"No-one is against the *use* of AM"....


But, did the FCC ever get anywhere close to seeing its use banned? I am
not, remember, saying that a mode would become so unpopular or disliked on a
scale such that it would be rare to find it openly being used. I am saying,
however, that I believe the FCC would never regulate its ban.


But that was not good enough for some, and proposals have arisen every so
often
to effectively outlaw AM from the ham bands. HF ham bands, anyway. So far,
none
of them have been successful.


And, I don't think they ever would be.


Up until 20 years ago, the amateur power limit was 1 kW DC input to the
stages
delivering power to the antenna. Then the rules changed to 1.5 kW PEP
output.
For the AM folks, this was effectively a lowering of the power limit to
about
half of what it had been before the change. For SSB folks, it was
effectively
about a 50% raise of the power limit.

LIttle by little...

73 de Jim, N2EY


I do see things changing in the ARS, but not related to the outlawing of a
mode.

Kim W5TIT

"Kim W5TIT" wrote in message
...
"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , "Kim W5TIT"

writes:


Of course not. But I can accurately say that there is no need to roll
everyone who wants to see an end to the test element, into the "no CW
use"
minority (note I said minority), either.

Agreed! Point is, however, that the "no one" statement is simply not
correct.


Let's recall that you are far more into definition than I am, Jim. When I
say "no one" it may not mean *everyone* but it means enough to be counted
as
no one. I believe that the number of folks who wish to see an end to CW
in
the bands of the ARS are so miniscule that the projection of that ever
being
a reality is moot.


Anyone, *anyone* who allows theirself (bad English) to get all in a
huff
about CW use going away or being legislated out of ham radio is being
foolish.

Not necessarily. Not after seeing the mode (not just the test) attacked
the way
I have.


I've seen it attacked also. But I've never for a moment given it any kind
of merit--the mode simply would never be banned from the ARS. Has any
mode
ever been banned? Sure, rules have changed; rules pertaining to power
limits, rules pertaining to test requirements, rules pertaining even (I
believe) to *where* in the bands that different modes are allowed or not.
But I doubt a mode would ever be banned, once implemented and in place.


There are a few who have been proponents of seeing the end of CW;
and when I see those posts, I yawn and go on.

That's *you* - not everyone.


I can't imagine anyone giving merit to the thought that a mode would be
banned. Maybe I am being unrealistic. Using history as a perspective of
measurement; I don't see it ever happening.


There will never be an end to
CW use, and it would never be banned from use in the ham bands...it
just
wouldn't. I think it would be unrealistic to think it would.

I hope you are right about that. Some of us are not about to "trust to
the
kindness of strangers" however


I think I believe it enough that I'll eat my sock (the right foot sock) if
it ever happens.


And, if it
was based off a majority of users of the bands, I rest assured knowing
that
most would not support an end to CW use.

Not now, anyway.


My term "most" includes those people who now and in the future have any
kind
of romantic thought about the ARS. And, I think most do. There are the
few
who would see an end to something they don't like. But, given the desire
and will of most ARS folks, CW--nor any mode for that matter--will
disappear. Now, if I am wrong about history just let me know and I *may*
change my belief.


I think those who are in the
minority are there mostly for the shock value of it.

Perhaps.

But not too long ago, the mere suggestion of *any* class of ham license
with no
code test would have gathered almost no support. And the idea of the
total
abolition of code testing would have been discarded with the claim that
*no-one* wanted all code testing to end.


I can see requirements changing, etc. But, I cannot see the FCC ever
saying, "OK, no more ______ as a legal mode in the ARS."


They way to outlaw something is little by little. Remember your concerns
about
the restrictions on privacy brought about by 'homeland security'
responses?
Little by little....


I have never doubted that the government would do as they have done. I
daresay they were doing under different guises for many years now.
Nothing
different there. It's all about expectation. The expectation that the
FCC
would ever ban a mode is minimal for me.


There was a time when AM was king of the 'phone modes. Then SSB came a
long and
took center stage, while AM was relegated to niche status. Most folks
said
"No-one is against the *use* of AM"....


But, did the FCC ever get anywhere close to seeing its use banned? I am
not, remember, saying that a mode would become so unpopular or disliked on
a
scale such that it would be rare to find it openly being used. I am
saying,
however, that I believe the FCC would never regulate its ban.


But that was not good enough for some, and proposals have arisen every
so
often
to effectively outlaw AM from the ham bands. HF ham bands, anyway. So
far,
none
of them have been successful.


And, I don't think they ever would be.


Up until 20 years ago, the amateur power limit was 1 kW DC input to the
stages
delivering power to the antenna. Then the rules changed to 1.5 kW PEP
output.
For the AM folks, this was effectively a lowering of the power limit to
about
half of what it had been before the change. For SSB folks, it was
effectively
about a 50% raise of the power limit.

LIttle by little...

73 de Jim, N2EY


I do see things changing in the ARS, but not related to the outlawing of a
mode.

Kim W5TIT



Spark was banned. Wide band FM was banned from HF. For decades all we
could do was talk and do CW. It was years fighting to get SSTV allowed.
Then digital, other than RTTY was another long road.

Most of the time the FCC simply didn't bother to authorize a new mode.
Thats how it works Hug and Chalk.

Dan/W4NTI

In article .net, "Dan/W4NTI"
w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com writes:

Spark was banned.

Were you very sad when that happened, Dan?

Gosh, on-off keying morse was the ONLY way that sparkies could
communicate anything back in the "good old days."

Wide band FM was banned from HF. For decades all we
could do was talk and do CW. It was years fighting to get SSTV allowed.
Then digital, other than RTTY was another long road.

Tell us all about "losing all those ham bands" after WARC-79... :-)

Most of the time the FCC simply didn't bother to authorize a new mode.

Nah...everything is beeping and voice yakking just on HF, right?

No problem, you probably think "spread spectrum" is an obscene
phrase. :-)

Thats how it works Hug and Chalk.

"Hugging and a Chalking" was a little ditty composed by a black
radio pianist on a Chicago radio station about 1950, had his own
quarter hour program. It was briefly popular in the midwest. You
were listening to Chicago radio stations back then, senior? :-)

LHA

In article , "Kim W5TIT"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , "Kim W5TIT"

writes:

Of course not. But I can accurately say that there is no need to roll
everyone who wants to see an end to the test element, into the "no CW
use" minority (note I said minority), either.

Agreed! Point is, however, that the "no one" statement is simply not
correct.

Let's recall that you are far more into definition than I am, Jim. When I
say "no one" it may not mean *everyone* but it means enough to be counted as
no one.

Sorry, Kim, that's too much of a stretch. "No one" means "not anyone" or "not
even one person". Zero people, in other words.

"Almost no one" is what I think you intended to write. As in "Almost no one
wants to see Morse use banned".

I believe that the number of folks who wish to see an end to CW in
the bands of the ARS are so miniscule that the projection of that ever being
a reality is moot.

I hope you are right. However, I recall a time when the same could be said of
those who wished to see an end to code testing.

"Never" is a very long time. How many things have you seen in your lifetime
that, if someone had told you about them years ago, you would have said "That
will *never* happen in my lifetime"?

Look who is the new governor of California. Of course he's really just a front
man for term-limited Pete Wilson, but if someone had told you when the first
Conan movie came out that you were looking at the future governor of
California....

Anyone, *anyone* who allows theirself (bad English) to get all in a huff
about CW use going away or being legislated out of ham radio is being
foolish.

Not necessarily. Not after seeing the mode (not just the test) attacked
the way I have.

I've seen it attacked also. But I've never for a moment given it any kind
of merit--the mode simply would never be banned from the ARS.

"Never" is a very long time.

Has any mode ever been banned?

Yes. "Mode B" (spark) transmissions were banned for amateurs in 1927. Oddly
enough, they were not banned for the maritime services until 1966.

Amateur use of spark had just about disappeared by 1925, however.

Sure, rules have changed; rules pertaining to power
limits, rules pertaining to test requirements, rules pertaining even (I
believe) to *where* in the bands that different modes are allowed or not.

Sure. For example, once upon a time, the voice part of 80 meters was the low
end.

But I doubt a mode would ever be banned, once implemented and in place.

I hope you are right. But MARS does not allow the use of the mode on their
frequencies, by order of the military person in charge. Even if the volunteers
want to use it, they're not allowed. Why? No reason given. Many MARS folks quit
over that ruling.

There are a few who have been proponents of seeing the end of CW;
and when I see those posts, I yawn and go on.

That's *you* - not everyone.

I can't imagine anyone giving merit to the thought that a mode would be
banned. Maybe I am being unrealistic. Using history as a perspective of
measurement; I don't see it ever happening.

There will never be an end to
CW use, and it would never be banned from use in the ham bands...it just
wouldn't. I think it would be unrealistic to think it would.

I hope you are right about that. Some of us are not about to "trust to the
kindness of strangers" however

I think I believe it enough that I'll eat my sock (the right foot sock) if
it ever happens.

For your sake I hope that never becomes a necessity.

And, if it
was based off a majority of users of the bands, I rest assured knowing
that most would not support an end to CW use.

Not now, anyway.

My term "most" includes those people who now and in the future have any kind
of romantic thought about the ARS. And, I think most do. There are the few
who would see an end to something they don't like. But, given the desire
and will of most ARS folks, CW--nor any mode for that matter--will
disappear. Now, if I am wrong about history just let me know and I *may*
change my belief.

I think those who are in the
minority are there mostly for the shock value of it.

Perhaps.

But not too long ago, the mere suggestion of *any* class of ham license
with no
code test would have gathered almost no support. And the idea of the total
abolition of code testing would have been discarded with the claim that
*no-one* wanted all code testing to end.

I can see requirements changing, etc. But, I cannot see the FCC ever
saying, "OK, no more ______ as a legal mode in the ARS."

I can. Not very likely, but given the changes in rules I've seen in 36 years, I
don;t count anything out.

They way to outlaw something is little by little. Remember your concerns
about
the restrictions on privacy brought about by 'homeland security'
responses?
Little by little....

I have never doubted that the government would do as they have done. I
daresay they were doing under different guises for many years now. Nothing
different there. It's all about expectation. The expectation that the FCC
would ever ban a mode is minimal for me.

There was a time when AM was king of the 'phone modes. Then SSB came a
along and
took center stage, while AM was relegated to niche status. Most folks said
"No-one is against the *use* of AM"....

But, did the FCC ever get anywhere close to seeing its use banned? I am
not, remember, saying that a mode would become so unpopular or disliked on a
scale such that it would be rare to find it openly being used. I am saying,
however, that I believe the FCC would never regulate its ban.

There was a docket in the 1970s that would have limited the bandwidth of all
modes on HF to 3.5 kHz in the 'phone subbands. That would have effectively
banned AM and any form of FM below 30 MHz. It was seriously considered.

But that was not good enough for some, and proposals have arisen every so
often
to effectively outlaw AM from the ham bands. HF ham bands, anyway. So far,
none of them have been successful.

And, I don't think they ever would be.

Up until 20 years ago, the amateur power limit was 1 kW DC input to the
stages
delivering power to the antenna. Then the rules changed to 1.5 kW PEP
output.
For the AM folks, this was effectively a lowering of the power limit to
about
half of what it had been before the change. For SSB folks, it was
effectively
about a 50% raise of the power limit.

LIttle by little...

I do see things changing in the ARS, but not related to the outlawing of a
mode.

Lots of ways to outlaw something. Take away the spectrum where it can be used,
reduce the power level, etc.

Little by little...

73 de Jim, N2EY

My first amateur license, a Novice, was dated October 12, 1967. It arrived
October 14.

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , "Kim W5TIT"

writes:

But I doubt a mode would ever be banned, once implemented and in place.

I hope you are right. But MARS does not allow the use of the mode on their
frequencies, by order of the military person in charge. Even if the
volunteers
want to use it, they're not allowed. Why? No reason given. Many MARS folks
quit
over that ruling.


We are discussing ARS frequencies, to use your firmness of interpretation.



I think I believe it enough that I'll eat my sock (the right foot sock)
if
it ever happens.

For your sake I hope that never becomes a necessity.


I'm pretty certain.


I can see requirements changing, etc. But, I cannot see the FCC ever
saying, "OK, no more ______ as a legal mode in the ARS."

I can. Not very likely, but given the changes in rules I've seen in 36
years, I
don;t count anything out.


Well, you mentioned that "spark" was banned. Hmmmm, so there's been a ban
on a mode. However, would the ban have been a response to bandwidth usage?
I mean would spark violate the spirit of the R&R as they exist today?


But, did the FCC ever get anywhere close to seeing its use banned? I am
not, remember, saying that a mode would become so unpopular or disliked
on a
scale such that it would be rare to find it openly being used. I am
saying,
however, that I believe the FCC would never regulate its ban.

There was a docket in the 1970s that would have limited the bandwidth of
all
modes on HF to 3.5 kHz in the 'phone subbands. That would have effectively
banned AM and any form of FM below 30 MHz. It was seriously considered.


That's like my almost, Jim. Are we going to speak in almost terms or not?



73 de Jim, N2EY


Kim W5TIT

"Kim W5TIT" wrote



But, did the FCC ever get anywhere close to seeing its use banned? I am
not, remember, saying that a mode would become so unpopular or disliked on a
scale such that it would be rare to find it openly being used. I am saying,
however, that I believe the FCC would never regulate its ban.


Spark transmissions were outlawed (as well they should have been) so
the precedent exists.

On a more immediate note, as relates to your discussion on AM phone,
I'd have to dig out some old material to get all the facts exactly in
order, but there was a petition (in the 70's?) which the I
***believe*** the FCC had moved to the stage of an NPRM to outlaw AM
transmissions on the HF amateur bands. The rationale was that AM was
(is?) wasteful of spectrum because SSB can convey the same message in
half the bandwidth oF DSB AM phone and without those awful sounding
hetrodyning carriers. The proposal narrowly missed being adopted,
only because of a huge hue and cry from thousands of AM-forever hams
(who drew ARRL into the fight on their side). Today you're hard
pressed to find any remaining AM-ers on the band, and if the petition
were re-introduced it might well be adopted due to lack of organized
opposition. Most of the AM-forever crowd has moved to "forever".

73, de Hans, K0HB

"Hans K0HB" wrote in message
om...
"Kim W5TIT" wrote

But, did the FCC ever get anywhere close to seeing its use banned? I am
not, remember, saying that a mode would become so unpopular or disliked
on a
scale such that it would be rare to find it openly being used. I am
saying,
however, that I believe the FCC would never regulate its ban.


Spark transmissions were outlawed (as well they should have been) so
the precedent exists.

But spark was a transmission technology, not a mode.

On a more immediate note, as relates to your discussion on AM phone,
I'd have to dig out some old material to get all the facts exactly in
order, but there was a petition (in the 70's?) which the I
***believe*** the FCC had moved to the stage of an NPRM to outlaw AM
transmissions on the HF amateur bands. The rationale was that AM was
(is?) wasteful of spectrum because SSB can convey the same message in
half the bandwidth oF DSB AM phone and without those awful sounding
hetrodyning carriers. The proposal narrowly missed being adopted,
only because of a huge hue and cry from thousands of AM-forever hams
(who drew ARRL into the fight on their side). Today you're hard
pressed to find any remaining AM-ers on the band, and if the petition
were re-introduced it might well be adopted due to lack of organized
opposition. Most of the AM-forever crowd has moved to "forever".

Yet AM is still allowed.

Cheers,
Bill K2UNK

"Bill Sohl" wrote


Yet AM is still allowed.


Yes, it certainly is. But for how long?

Riley Hollingsworth told a Richmond, Virginia hamfest last spring
(speaking of "enhanced SSB") that deliberately operating a wideband
mode in a crowded spectrum is "shortsighted and rude," may be ignoring
the "minimum bandwidth necessary" rule. Now if 4.5KHz-wide signals are
shortsighted and rude, then it logically follows that 6KHz-wide AM
signals containing the same information are even more shortsighted and
rude.

He also hinted that continued complaints "WILL (my emphasis) lead to
pressure on the FCC to revise the Amateur Service rules." Would you
expect DSB AM to survive such revision?

Cheers to you too,

de Hans, K0HB

"Hans K0HB" wrote in message
om...
"Bill Sohl" wrote

Yet AM is still allowed.


Yes, it certainly is. But for how long?

Good question, but it has been some 40+ years since SSB
pretty much took over as the HF mode...and there's still no
call for any ban of AM.

Riley Hollingsworth told a Richmond, Virginia hamfest last spring
(speaking of "enhanced SSB") that deliberately operating a wideband
mode in a crowded spectrum is "shortsighted and rude," may be ignoring
the "minimum bandwidth necessary" rule. Now if 4.5KHz-wide signals are
shortsighted and rude, then it logically follows that 6KHz-wide AM
signals containing the same information are even more shortsighted and
rude.

He also hinted that continued complaints "WILL (my emphasis) lead to
pressure on the FCC to revise the Amateur Service rules." Would you
expect DSB AM to survive such revision?

Not if such DSB AM was in any way a significant percentage
of use on the air. That sure doesn't seem to be the case at
all, however.

Cheers,
Bill K2UNK

I wonder how many of you realise that when you are operating Single Sideband
Suppressed Carrier you are on Amplitude Modulation ??

Dan/W4NTI

"Bill Sohl" wrote in message
link.net...

"Hans K0HB" wrote in message
om...
"Bill Sohl" wrote

Yet AM is still allowed.


Yes, it certainly is. But for how long?

Good question, but it has been some 40+ years since SSB
pretty much took over as the HF mode...and there's still no
call for any ban of AM.

Riley Hollingsworth told a Richmond, Virginia hamfest last spring
(speaking of "enhanced SSB") that deliberately operating a wideband
mode in a crowded spectrum is "shortsighted and rude," may be ignoring
the "minimum bandwidth necessary" rule. Now if 4.5KHz-wide signals are
shortsighted and rude, then it logically follows that 6KHz-wide AM
signals containing the same information are even more shortsighted and
rude.

He also hinted that continued complaints "WILL (my emphasis) lead to
pressure on the FCC to revise the Amateur Service rules." Would you
expect DSB AM to survive such revision?

Not if such DSB AM was in any way a significant percentage
of use on the air. That sure doesn't seem to be the case at
all, however.

Cheers,
Bill K2UNK