Mike Coslo wrote:

JJ wrote:


Suggest you and Kim read this:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/987498.asp?cp1=1


Ancient liberal press trick of assigning reasons for something to
something else.

My read:
1. Earlier, a lot of Black people moved north for jobs.

2. Jobs go away, and next generation is better educated.

3. People move to where they can get a job.



The closest thing to a quote from an actual person who MOved south and
said this is why they moved south was from some dude in the urban
league. I hesitate to draw the same conclusions. YMMV

- Mike KB3EIA -

Why don't you ask the blacks that are moving back south and find out for
yourself? As usual, if your views agree with the press then the press is
correct, if not then the press is wrong.

Mike Coslo wrote:

JJ wrote:


Suggest you and Kim read this:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/987498.asp?cp1=1


Ancient liberal press trick of assigning reasons for something to
something else.

My read:
1. Earlier, a lot of Black people moved north for jobs.

2. Jobs go away, and next generation is better educated.

3. People move to where they can get a job.


I guess you failed to read this part, or you just ignored it because it
did not fit with what you want to believe.

"That movement north slowed as job opportunities dwindled and *racial
tensions rose* in northern cities in the 1960s and 1970s, Ross said."

JJ wrote:


I guess you failed to read this part, or you just ignored it because it
did not fit with what you want to believe.

"That movement north slowed as job opportunities dwindled and *racial
tensions rose* in northern cities in the 1960s and 1970s, Ross said."

I don't deny they got a few parts right.

Hey, you want a theory?

How about an effort made to get African Americans (traditionally
Democrat)to move back to the south to balance out the political leanings
of the area? We might be able to get some "authority" to say something
like that.

- Mike KB3EIA

"Kim W5TIT" wrote:

(snip) I am telling you that my experience has been
that people who are customarily born in this country
feel that the jobs we are speaking of are beneath them.
(snip) But, how dare you dismiss the experiences I have
seen.


Again, I'm not dismissing your experiences. Instead, I'm questioning the
conclusions you've made about those experiences. You say, based on your
experiences with other people, nobody in this country other than immigrants
is willing to do those jobs? How many of those non-immigrant people did you
ask if they would take those jobs if the wages were better? I suspect just
about all of them would at least consider, and many would gladly take, those
jobs under different wage conditions. If I'm right, your conclusions are
flat wrong - non-immigrants are willing to do those jobs. And, if you are
wrong, to continue to perpetrate a myth that non-immigrants are either too
lazy or too uppish to do that work is simply insulting.


And, how dare you again, Dwight. (snip) How dare you
imply that I "don't care" about bad policies in this country.
Have I once said I don't care? (snip)


Lay off the false outrage, Kim. Nobody said you didn't care. I said "few
seem to care," not "Kim doesn't care." If you apply those words to yourself,
you do so in your own mind. If others want to apply those words to you,
they'll do so after reading what you've said.


(snip) and I've just told you I am basing that on experience. Go
to the Unemployment lines. I haven't--but I *BET* the majority
of people in those lines are not looking for work on farms, at
Wal-Mart, with municipalities, landscape companies, construction
firms, asbestos abatement firms, chemical and biological hazard
waste firms, and our ever-famous convenience stores such as
7-Eleven--all of which need people constantly.


Your experiences are clearly somewhat limited. Walmart doesn't hire
through state or outside employment agencies. Potential employees apply at
the individual stores and there are rarely shortages of applicants.
Municipalities tend to pay fairly well (with good benefits), hence rarely
have a shortage of applicants (skilled applicants is another matter).
Landscape companies, to keep costs down, are perhaps the largest employers
of illegal immigrants. Construction companies only have problems finding
skilled applicants (laborers are plentiful). The same with most other
companies seeking skilled labor. Convenience store jobs are among the lowest
paying, and most dangerous, in the country. In other words, none of these
tend to prove your point.


(snip) All one need do is look around them to see where our
youth find important and meaningful employment: McDonald's
and other fast food joints, light dining restaurants, and that's
about it. (snip)


You've got to be kidding, Kim. You consider employment at fast food
joints, some of the lowest paying jobs in this country, to be "important and
meaningful employment?"


(snip) Why did I break-out to light dining restaurants? Because
I don't see teen-agers in the "finer" dining restaraunts - and my
husband and I love to eat out so we have some experience.
Know why *I* think they (teen-agers) aren't there? Because
there, the customer service is higher scale, which demands more
personality, better etiquette, and of course--greater work ethic.


Or maybe the owners simply don't hire teenagers.


Guess who we do see serving us in those restaurants?


Who, Kim? You've already said teenagers (immigrant and non-immigrant)
don't work in these restaurants. That leaves only adults. I suppose you're
now going to say immigrant adults have more personally, better etiquette,
and a greater work ethic, than non-immigrant adults in this country, which
is why immigrant adults, not non-immigrant adults, work in the restaurants
you go to.


My husband has been at his formerly family-owned business
for 27 years. His mom sold the company last year. For most
of those 27 years, until about 10 years ago, they had a great
crew of folks. Since then, the main focus of my husband's
every day work has been to get someone in there who wants
a job and will work. Know how many nieces nephews, and
his own kids and my son, he has had through those years?
Ten. Not one of them has ever, ever worked there. (snip)


Perhaps that says more about your husband than the nieces, nephews, and
kids. That's not intended as an insult. Instead, it's just to point out that
few kids are willing to work for parents or immediate relatives - parents
and relatives tend to be more demanding and more judgmental than the normal
employer.


If the factories are closing, then what jobs are the immigrants
moving in to take? (snip) I am still curious to know if factories
are closing, what jobs are available for anyone to take? (snip)


Didn't I pretty much answer that in the next paragraph of that message?
There are obviously more jobs in town than just factory jobs, Kim. The
elimination of those factory jobs simply adds to the competition for those
remaining jobs.


Well, excuse me for the honesty--you'll call it having my
blinders on or not caring, maybe even because I am a
"liberal"--but, if one contract put this company out of
business, then perhaps the person should have gone on
to some form of vocational or higher level training in
business practices before they took such a jump. (snip)


It happened to be about a $450k per year contract, the loss of which his
company could not absorb.


(snip) if we have no control over the employment
situation in this country--we don't whine about it. We
knuckle under, get the menial jobs, sell the big house,
get the little house, sell the SUV and get the Saturn,
and we begin the task of seeing what we can do--if
anything--to change the route of what we perceive as
being awful. (snip)


Kim, as voters and citizens, we're supposed to have control over the
employment situation in this country. We don't simply because too many
choose to "knuckle under" instead of demanding better. Of course, they
probably don't have that much of a choice as long as most people are
heartless enough to think the solution for those people is to sell
everything, take a menial job, and live in poverty.


Then, report the company to INS. REPORT THEM. If
the company is getting contracts based on their employment
of illegeal aliens, then I am sure the firms they are doing
services for will want to know this. For goodness sake,
REPORT their ass.


I've already filed complaints. Sadly, it just doesn't work that way, Kim.
When it comes to businesses hiring illegal immigrants, government agencies
only take on a few, high profile, cases each year (such as Walmart
recently). Because of that, you could complain until you're blue in the face
and absolutely nothing will come of it. I truly wish it were different, but
that's simply the way it is (which is exactly why so many companies are now
willing to hire illegal immigrants).


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"charlesb" wrote:

Amazing that you can interpret all that from my post,
which I had thought to be fairly straightforward and
easy to understand. (snip)


There is no other possible way to interpret your comments. You're arguing
against what you call "economic manipulation," which means you want no
change from what exists now.


Let's try again: The kind of economic manipulation that
you are advocating has been tried many, many times,
with consistently poor results. It is not "new" and further
manipulations of this kind would not be a "change", as it
has been tried extensively already. - Again; With
consistently poor results. (snip)


It's easy to make rash statements when you offer nothing to support them.
Where have the changes I've advocated been tried many times and in what way
have the results been poor? The key words there "the changes I've
advocated," not your fanciful interpretation of what I've advocated.


This may point out where some of our economic woes
may originate.... Are all people who advocate
manipulation of the economy by well-meaning fools
functionally illiterate? Perhaps that is what keeps them
from learning the simple lessons of history, tempting
them to advocate old, bad ideas that are conspicuous
for thier repeated failure?


I don't have the time to exchange insults with someone who clearly has no
intent to engage in a discussion, Charles. Get back with me when you have
something worthwhile to add.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"Kim W5TIT" wrote:

Maybe that has more to do with the fact that Clinton
was from the South and the flags were some form of
"solidarity." You sure do see things from a weird
perspective, in my opinion. (snip)


I have a weird perspective, Kim? I seriously doubt any person other than
you would have even come up with the notion that those flags might have been
displayed in an effort to demonstrate some form of solidarity with Bill
Clinton. Are your strange notions caused by a general lack of knowledge, an
inability to reconcile your liberal values with your surroundings in Texas,
some form of childhood trauma, or is your brain simply wired differently
than most? ;-)


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"Dan/W4NTI" wrote:

Most northerners I know that have crossed the Mason
Dixon line and stayed in the South for a period of time
have 'adopted' their new surroundings. With one major
exception....those from NY.

Wonder why that is?


Lets not forget those from New Jersey. Many of them tend to be strangest,
and most negative, of the whole bunch. There was one a few months back that
sat on the radio every single night for at least two months telling anyone
who would listen how much he disliked the people here, how much they
disliked him, how nobody would hire him (all this while he was at work), and
just how unhappy he was in general. I finally got fed up one night and told
him he should either just kill himself or go back to New Jersey if he was
really that darn miserable. Whatever I said must have worked because I never
heard him on the radio again and was told a few days later that he had
indeed moved back to New Jersey. However, as depressing as he was, he
probably did kill himself shortly after arriving there.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"Kim W5TIT" wrote:

The news said that? That there's LESS racism? Compared
to where and where?! I come from NE NY and never really
saw any racism.


The trend of blacks moving to the South has been covered in the news for
many years.


Here, the topic is a part of every-day life.


Exactly. More people here talk about race issues (all sides) openly and
honestly instead of sweeping them under the rug like they doesn't exist (or
trying to act like they don't exist). A friend (a reggie recording artist)
and his wife just moved here from NY about four years ago. There isn't a
week that goes by that we don't discuss, or even argue out, some racial
issue or topic. I think we've both learned a lot from each other through
this process. Regardless, the conversations are rarely boring and we've all
become good friends over the last few years.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

In article et, "Dan/W4NTI"
w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com writes:

The flag of the confederacy is NOT the battle flag being displayed as the
flag of the Confederacy.

When the Tennessee Battle Flag is flown in the South, by real Southerners,
it is meant as a sign of respect for the fallen and a symbol of STATES
RIGHTS.

Dan:

When you "real Southerners" fly your Tennessee Battle Flag or whatever
you call it, everyone who isn't a "real Southerner" views it as waving a
banner of racism under their noses. Whether it is right or not, and whether
you like it or not, your flag is a problem for the rest of the country --
especially American Negroes (the proper term for black people in America --
considering the fact that none of them was born in Africa or ever lived
in any African country long enough to gain citizenship there). The white
"real Southern" rednecks with the "Tennessee Battle Flag" on their pickup
trucks are living in the past, at the expense of modern race relations.

No one advocates seccession from the Union, or starting another war.

That's comforting.

But....we get real tired of Northerners and blacks trying to tear the flag
down, especially since the reason they want to tear it down is they believe
it is a racist symbol.

While I was in the military, I had the saying "perception is reality" drummed
into me. The way we present ourselves to others forms their opinion of us
from the very start. In most cases, that's the only opinion they ever use to
judge us from that point onward. I think it's time for you and your fellow
"real Southerners" to face the fact that your flag needs to be taken off
your flagpoles and replaced with the real American flag -- the Stars and
Stripes. No one is questioning the fact that the South is part of the United
States, and it's time for the "real Southerners" to stop fighting the Civil War
and living in peace with the rest of their country.

If it IS a racist symbol to them. Then they have fallen for the big lie.

One man's lie is another man's truth. If I were you, I'd concentrate on
making sure no one mistook me for a real American. Being a "real
Southerner" only leaves the impression that you don't feel as though
you belong to the greater whole of our nation.

Govern yourself accordingly.

I do -- and I'm not the one flying any sort of state-specific "battle flag."
I fly the flag of the UNITED States. One of the stars on the field of that
flag belongs to Tennessee -- a beautiful state filled with free, united, and
loyal Americans -- of all races, ethnic, and religious groups. They are
my fellow American citizens, and I expect them to view me as one of
theirs. I am living in the unified present-day reality of America -- not in
the divided, suspicious, and hateful past. I invite you, my fellow American,
to do likewise.

73 de Larry, K3LT

But its perfectly okay to pay some union bum a ton of wages for doing a
repetitive task, (a skill that same 14 y.o. that passed a ham test could
do) therefore jacking the cost of a product, lets say a car for this
example, to a ridiculous price??? (actually both the fast food worker and
the person on the line at the factory ARE BOTH doing repetitive tasks....)

Believe it or not, there are alot more people out there trying to survive on
the poverty level wages. Based strictly on my local region, that would be
any job under 9-10 dollars per hour before taxes and if any, benefits. And
unfortunately some of these people are NOT counted, in the unemployment or
other job related statistics, if they are not participating in the various
government programs like the employment security commision that Michigan
has... (think its called MichiganWorks)



--
Ryan KC8PMX

All of us could take a lesson from the weather. It pays no
attention to criticism.

"JJ" wrote in message
...
Kim W5TIT wrote:

Consider this. I've been toying with the idea over the last few years
that
it will the "menial" (as was put by someone else--I don't agree with the
term) jobs that will gradually grow to the higher paid jobs in this
country...because there will be less and less people who *will* do them.
The "services" of a migrant worker or a fast food person, or a municipal
worker or construction worker will become so highly needed, that they
will
be able to demand a pretty penny for their work.


And when this happens your taco and a coke at Taco Bell will cost you $15.