In article ,
(Len Over 21) fresh from spamming the living daylights out of the ECFS system,
writes:

In article ,
(N2EY)
writes:

In article k.net, "KØHB"
writes:

..... it's about the qualifications.

The incessant arguments here on rrap surround the question of whether or
not
there should be a Morse TEST for access to HF.

Well, that's the wrong question.

The real question is whether or not you should be Morse qualified for
access
to HF.

If there is no regulatory need for Morse qualification, then there is no
need for Morse testing.

The need for Morse qualification, as clearly stated in the 1913 radio
regulations was "The applicant must be able to transmit and receive in
Continental Morse, at a speed sufficient to enable him to recognize
distress
calls or the official "keep-out" signals." Since that qualification need
has long since disappeared, then so has the need for the qualification
test.

Hans,

If you want people to quit making fun of you, quit posting such laughable
reductio ad absurdum arguments.

Incorrect.

Why?

The necessity for tested demonstration of morsemanship FOR
LICENSING of any radio operator, any radio service, has disappeared in
the 90 years of time since 1913.

No, it hasn't.

That stated 1913 need for Morse code qualifications is not the only reason
such
qualifications were kept in the rules all these years. There are lots more.

Not to the FCC.

Then why didn't FCC just drop Element 1 back in July, when the international
treaty requirement went away?

In 1913 (or 1912) there was ONLY on-off keying of so-called CW
RF sources.

No, that's not true at all.

Spark transmitters were not CW sources - they generated damped (modulated)
waves.

Despite the Fessenden demonstration of 1906 on
Christmas Eve (done with an ALTERNATOR RF source, NOT a
"spark" transmitter),

Fessenden demonstrated voice modulated spark operation as early as 1900. His
methods have been verified by actual tests using replica transmitters and dummy
loads.

Fessenden had a two-way transatlantic radiotelephone setup in operation by
November of 1906 using alternator RF sources.

The demo of Christmas Eve 1906 was repeated a week later (New Year's Eve).

These events are well documented.

there was no great rush for establishment
of sound/voice transmissions.

So?

TTY was just getting started in
replacing landline manual telegraphy, no facsimile or other "data"
sources.

So?

Vacuum tubes were barely out of the laboratory after
5 years from invention...makers were still trying to get good QC in
the "tube factories."

So?

The original 1913 reason for technical qualifications was to prevent
interference to nonamateurs caused by improper adjustment of amateur
transmitters.

Baloney.

No, it's a fact.

IMPROPER OPERATION, not "adjustment," and not
just "by amateurs."

Same thing.

Were there bandplans in 1913? I don't think so.

Yes, there were. See below.

Were there any
specific frequencies (wavelengths) assigned then for everyone in
radio?

Yes, there were, for most stations.

I think not, but you will no doubt explain away "how it was"
from personal experience in 1913. :-)

I wasn't there. Neither were you. But I obviously know far more about how it
was than you do, Leonard.

Do grow up a tiny bit and accept correction like a man, rather than a spoiled
child who cannot bear being told he is wrong. ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)

The exile of U.S. radio amateurs to the "short waves" (shorter
than 200 m) came AFTER World War 1, not before.

On August 17, 1912, a new radio law was signed into law by President Taft. It
had been passed by the Senate on May 12 of that year and by the House on August
9.

This bill, a revision of the earlier Alexander Bill, required that:

- all transmitting stations be operated in accordance with licenses granted by
the Department of Commerce (a Federal agency)

- all operators of transmitting stations be licensed

- every station designate a normal operating wavelength below 600 or above 1600
meters

- ship stations were designated 450 to 600 meters

- amateur stations use wavelengths not exceeding 200 meters, and transformer
power not in excess of 1 kW

- special exceptions to the rules could be authorized by the Secretary.

The professionals of the day said that the long-distance effectiveness of waves
decreased as the wavelength decreased, so the longest wavelengths were
generally assigned to the longest distance services. Amateurs were assigned the
thought-to-be-worthless-for-DX wavelengths shorter than 200 meters. Most
amateurs clustered on or near 200 meters because they believed the erroneous
theories of the professionals.

The above is all well documented.

How much interference to nonamateurs is caused by improper adjustment of
amateur transmitters today? Reading the FCC enforcement letters, such
interference today seems to be more a case of intentional modification of
amateur equipment by a lawless few to operate on nonamateur frequencies.

In 1913 there was NO Internet to contact the FCC.

So what?

How much interference to nonamateurs is caused by improper adjustment of
amateur transmitters today?

There wasn't any FCC until 1934.

So what?

There were regulatory predecessors to the FCC all the way back to 1912. They
had licenses, tests, radio inspectors, callsigns, the works. The Department of
Commerce performed those functions back in 1913.

There was very little landline long-distance telephony
to contact the three different radio regulatory agencies that existed
between 1912 and 1934.

So what?

"Communications" with any radio regulatory
agency in 1913 was by surface mail...or the "telegram" (a new term
for the mostly-manual-telegraphic message sent via landlines).

Of what import is any of this?

How much interference to nonamateurs is caused by improper adjustment of
amateur transmitters today?

So, in the world of today (if you can tear yourself away from the
beloved past), HOW is a continuing requirement of a morse code test
going to "stop" all that improper radio operation?

You obviously misunderstand what I wrote, Leonard. The adjustment/operation
discussion is about the need for written tests.

Answer: It won't. Improper operation isn't due to the mode. It isn't
due to the presence or absence of a code test.

Then why do so many FCC enforcement actions against amateurs involve amateurs
using voice modes, and so few against amateurs using Morse code?

The discrepancy far exceeds the difference in mode popularity.

(N2EY) wrote in
:

In article ,
(Len Over 21) fresh from spamming the living
daylights out of the ECFS system, writes:

In article ,
(N2EY)
writes:

In article k.net,
"KØHB" writes:

..... it's about the qualifications.

The incessant arguments here on rrap surround the question of whether
or not there should be a Morse TEST for access to HF.

Well, that's the wrong question.

The real question is whether or not you should be Morse qualified for
access to HF.

If there is no regulatory need for Morse qualification, then there is
no need for Morse testing.

The need for Morse qualification, as clearly stated in the 1913 radio
regulations was "The applicant must be able to transmit and receive
in Continental Morse, at a speed sufficient to enable him to
recognize distress calls or the official "keep-out" signals." Since
that qualification need has long since disappeared, then so has the
need for the qualification test.

Hans,

If you want people to quit making fun of you, quit posting such
laughable reductio ad absurdum arguments.

Incorrect.

Why?

The necessity for tested demonstration of morsemanship FOR
LICENSING of any radio operator, any radio service, has disappeared
in the 90 years of time since 1913.

No, it hasn't.

That stated 1913 need for Morse code qualifications is not the only
reason such qualifications were kept in the rules all these years.
There are lots more.

Not to the FCC.

Then why didn't FCC just drop Element 1 back in July, when the
international treaty requirement went away?

In 1913 (or 1912) there was ONLY on-off keying of so-called CW
RF sources.

No, that's not true at all.

Spark transmitters were not CW sources - they generated damped
(modulated) waves.

Despite the Fessenden demonstration of 1906 on
Christmas Eve (done with an ALTERNATOR RF source, NOT a "spark"
transmitter),

Fessenden demonstrated voice modulated spark operation as early as
1900. His methods have been verified by actual tests using replica
transmitters and dummy loads.

Fessenden transmitted voice over one mile during December 1900, possibly
on the 12th, on Cobb Island, Maryland.


Fessenden had a two-way transatlantic radiotelephone setup in operation
by November of 1906 using alternator RF sources.

The demo of Christmas Eve 1906 was repeated a week later (New Year's
Eve).

These events are well documented.

As is DeForrest's later voice coverage of the New York yacht race, using a
spark transmitter of the earlier type (no alternator) but using a
regenerative detector with a triode tube. I can't remember when that took
place, although it is in several books, but the triode (audion) patent
discloses the regenerative detector and was issued in 1907, so the yacht
race must have taken place around that period.


there was no great rush for establishment of sound/voice
transmissions.

So?

TTY was just getting started in
replacing landline manual telegraphy, no facsimile or other "data"
sources.

So?

Vacuum tubes were barely out of the laboratory after
5 years from invention...makers were still trying to get good QC in
the "tube factories."

So?

The original 1913 reason for technical qualifications was to prevent
interference to nonamateurs caused by improper adjustment of amateur
transmitters.

Baloney.

No, it's a fact.

IMPROPER OPERATION, not "adjustment," and not just "by amateurs."

Same thing.

Were there bandplans in 1913? I don't think so.

Yes, there were. See below.

Were there any
specific frequencies (wavelengths) assigned then for everyone in
radio?

Yes, there were, for most stations.

I think not, but you will no doubt explain away "how it was" from
personal experience in 1913. :-)

I wasn't there. Neither were you. But I obviously know far more about
how it was than you do, Leonard.

Do grow up a tiny bit and accept correction like a man, rather than a
spoiled child who cannot bear being told he is wrong. ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)
;-)

The exile of U.S. radio amateurs to the "short waves" (shorter than
200 m) came AFTER World War 1, not before.

On August 17, 1912, a new radio law was signed into law by President
Taft. It had been passed by the Senate on May 12 of that year and by
the House on August 9.

This bill, a revision of the earlier Alexander Bill, required that:

- all transmitting stations be operated in accordance with licenses
granted by the Department of Commerce (a Federal agency)

- all operators of transmitting stations be licensed

- every station designate a normal operating wavelength below 600 or
above 1600 meters

- ship stations were designated 450 to 600 meters

- amateur stations use wavelengths not exceeding 200 meters, and
transformer power not in excess of 1 kW

- special exceptions to the rules could be authorized by the Secretary.

The professionals of the day said that the long-distance effectiveness
of waves decreased as the wavelength decreased, so the longest
wavelengths were generally assigned to the longest distance services.
Amateurs were assigned the thought-to-be-worthless-for-DX wavelengths
shorter than 200 meters. Most amateurs clustered on or near 200 meters
because they believed the erroneous theories of the professionals.

The above is all well documented.

How much interference to nonamateurs is caused by improper adjustment
of amateur transmitters today? Reading the FCC enforcement letters,
such interference today seems to be more a case of intentional
modification of amateur equipment by a lawless few to operate on
nonamateur frequencies.

In 1913 there was NO Internet to contact the FCC.

So what?

How much interference to nonamateurs is caused by improper adjustment
of amateur transmitters today?

There wasn't any FCC until 1934.

So what?

There were regulatory predecessors to the FCC all the way back to 1912.
They had licenses, tests, radio inspectors, callsigns, the works. The
Department of Commerce performed those functions back in 1913.

There was very little landline long-distance telephony
to contact the three different radio regulatory agencies that
existed between 1912 and 1934.

So what?

"Communications" with any radio regulatory
agency in 1913 was by surface mail...or the "telegram" (a new term
for the mostly-manual-telegraphic message sent via landlines).

Of what import is any of this?

How much interference to nonamateurs is caused by improper adjustment
of amateur transmitters today?

So, in the world of today (if you can tear yourself away from the
beloved past), HOW is a continuing requirement of a morse code test
going to "stop" all that improper radio operation?

You obviously misunderstand what I wrote, Leonard. The
adjustment/operation discussion is about the need for written tests.

Answer: It won't. Improper operation isn't due to the mode. It
isn't due to the presence or absence of a code test.

Then why do so many FCC enforcement actions against amateurs involve
amateurs using voice modes, and so few against amateurs using Morse
code?

The discrepancy far exceeds the difference in mode popularity.

In article , Alun
writes:

Fessenden demonstrated voice modulated spark operation as early as
1900. His methods have been verified by actual tests using replica
transmitters and dummy loads.

Fessenden transmitted voice over one mile during December 1900, possibly
on the 12th, on Cobb Island, Maryland.

Yep. You can even listen to re-creations of what it may have sounded like
on-line. I posted the urls here some time back.

By 1903, he had reached 50 miles.

Of course in a way *almost all* spark transmitters use alternators, because
except for simple spark coils, they *all* use AC generated by alternators...

Fessenden's innovation was to use AC above the voice frequency range.

Brilliant guy. Over 500 patents, in a variety of fields.

Fessenden had a two-way transatlantic radiotelephone setup in operation
by November of 1906 using alternator RF sources.

The demo of Christmas Eve 1906 was repeated a week later (New Year's
Eve).

These events are well documented.

As is DeForrest's later voice coverage of the New York yacht race, using a
spark transmitter of the earlier type (no alternator) but using a
regenerative detector with a triode tube. I can't remember when that took
place, although it is in several books, but the triode (audion) patent
discloses the regenerative detector and was issued in 1907, so the yacht
race must have taken place around that period.

Practical regenerative detection is generally credited to Armstrong in 1915.
However, DeForest's use of voice communication at such an early date is another
historic fact.

Seems to me that Fessenden's transatlantic 2 way radiotelephone operation is
the most significant of these early developments. Less than 5 years after
Marconi claimed one-time one-way reception of a single coded letter, Fessenden
had practical, repeatable, two-way voice transatlantic radio communications
over a longer path, using much less power.

73 de Jim, N2EY

(N2EY) wrote in
:

In article , Alun
writes:

Fessenden demonstrated voice modulated spark operation as early as
1900. His methods have been verified by actual tests using replica
transmitters and dummy loads.

Fessenden transmitted voice over one mile during December 1900,
possibly on the 12th, on Cobb Island, Maryland.

Yep. You can even listen to re-creations of what it may have sounded
like on-line. I posted the urls here some time back.

By 1903, he had reached 50 miles.

Of course in a way *almost all* spark transmitters use alternators,
because except for simple spark coils, they *all* use AC generated by
alternators...

Fessenden's innovation was to use AC above the voice frequency range.

Brilliant guy. Over 500 patents, in a variety of fields.

Fessenden had a two-way transatlantic radiotelephone setup in
operation by November of 1906 using alternator RF sources.

The demo of Christmas Eve 1906 was repeated a week later (New Year's
Eve).

These events are well documented.

As is DeForrest's later voice coverage of the New York yacht race,
using a spark transmitter of the earlier type (no alternator) but using
a regenerative detector with a triode tube. I can't remember when that
took place, although it is in several books, but the triode (audion)
patent discloses the regenerative detector and was issued in 1907, so
the yacht race must have taken place around that period.

Practical regenerative detection is generally credited to Armstrong in
1915.

'Empire of the Air' (both the TV show and the book) claimed that Armstrong
came up with regeneration in 1911. De Forrest's patent pre-dated that by
another four years, and he won the court case. How could it ever have been
in doubt, when Armstrong's 'eureka' moment was four years after DeForrest
had the patent in his hand?

Armstrong seemed to rely on the argument that DeForrest didn't understand
what he had done, which is a lame argument to say the least. Maybe he
didn't understand what he had done, but he still did it first.

However, DeForest's use of voice communication at such an early
date is another
historic fact.

Seems to me that Fessenden's transatlantic 2 way radiotelephone
operation is the most significant of these early developments. Less
than 5 years after Marconi claimed one-time one-way reception of a
single coded letter, Fessenden had practical, repeatable, two-way voice
transatlantic radio communications over a longer path, using much less
power.

73 de Jim, N2EY




Undoubtedly. Do you know what types of transmitter and receiver were used
in 1906?

73 de Alun, N3KIP