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Larry Roll K3LT wrote: In article , Dave Heil writes: Actually, aside from a couple of Karjalainen brews in Helsinki in October, my yearly beer intake is about four bottles. I mostly stick to vodka or with Jack Daniels and branch water. Dave K8MN Dave: OK, I give up -- what the Sam Hill is "branch water?" I heard it mentioned a few times on the old TV program "Dallas," when J.R. Ewing used to order a "bourbon and branch" at the Ahwl (Oil) Baron's Club. Is it water that dripped off a tree branch during the rain, or did it come from a branch tributary of some particular river, or what? Or is it just another way of saying "Club Soda," as I suspect? Oh Lord no, Larry--nothing fizzy at all. A branch is a swift-running little stream. There's a town downstate named Jumping Branch. It is named for a nearby stream. Dave K8MN |
Dave Heil wrote in message ...
Larry Roll K3LT wrote: In article , Dave Heil writes: Actually, aside from a couple of Karjalainen brews in Helsinki in October, my yearly beer intake is about four bottles. I mostly stick to vodka or with Jack Daniels and branch water. Dave K8MN Dave: OK, I give up -- what the Sam Hill is "branch water?" I heard it mentioned a few times on the old TV program "Dallas," when J.R. Ewing used to order a "bourbon and branch" at the Ahwl (Oil) Baron's Club. Is it water that dripped off a tree branch during the rain, or did it come from a branch tributary of some particular river, or what? Or is it just another way of saying "Club Soda," as I suspect? Oh Lord no, Larry--nothing fizzy at all. A branch is a swift-running little stream. There's a town downstate named Jumping Branch. It is named for a nearby stream. Dave K8MN It's important to select the branch with the fewest cattle upstream. Poultry and swine operations are bad news, too. |
(N2EY) wrote in message ...
In article , Dave Heil writes: N2EY wrote: The newer computers actually seem to keep worse time than the older ones... Not an issue. When the 'puter clock here is noticeably off time vs. WWV I simply ping NIST and let them reset it. My tax dollars at work. YMMV. http://www.boulder.nist.gov/timefreq...-computer.html But my Tymeter grinds on, flipping the drums. . . groan . . ! 73 de Jim, N2EY w3rv |
KØHB wrote:
"Bert Craig" wrote I feel for the poor slob who finally breaks down and buys a '7800 just before the '7800 Pro or Pro II comes out. First of all, I don't think he'd be poor, and why are you calling me a slob? I'm placing my order. 73, de Hans, K0HB Good for you, Hans! I hope to join you some day! I remember some time ago two different friends of mine telling me that ICOM sold almost 10 times as many IC-781s as they had forecast when it was being designed. Both were in a position to know -- one was a former ICOM National Service Manager and the other was the owner of a large amateur radio store. 73, -- * Do NOT use Reply * Reply to K3TD via contesting dot com Tad, K3TD |
(Brian Kelly) wrote in message . com...
(N2EY) wrote in message ... In article , Dave Heil writes: N2EY wrote: The newer computers actually seem to keep worse time than the older ones... Not an issue. When the 'puter clock here is noticeably off time vs. WWV I simply ping NIST and let them reset it. My tax dollars at work. YMMV. http://www.boulder.nist.gov/timefreq...-computer.html KEWL! Of course there are also clocks an watches that "listen" to WWVB and reset themselves as needed. But my Tymeter grinds on, flipping the drums. . . groan . . ! It works! The battery-operated clock above it in the pictures (you saw my shack pix, I presume) is the backup and local timekeeper. The Tymeter just keeps doing its job. Simple technology - watta concept. Every so often I tune in WWV on the '342 just for a check. Usually the Tymeter is dead on. Did I ever show ya the pix of my trip to Boulder NIST and Fort Collins? A few years back - got shots of the then-standard atomic clocks and the transmitter site. Plus me standing by the transmitter site sign. 73 de Jim, N2EY |
Len Over 21 wrote: In article , Dave Heil writes: Len Over 21 wrote: In article , Dave Heil writes: I believe that's the beauty of the Orion, it's never "ancient." The latest upgrade is just a download away. I feel for the poor slob who finally breaks down and buys a '7800 just before the '7800 Pro or Pro II comes out. TT just keeps making it better and better. The rig is now about eight months old and I've downloaded about ten firmware releases in that time. "FIRMWARE releases?!?" Yes, firmware releases. Gosh, you must be equipped with a Star Trek Transporter! :-) No, just a PC with an internet connection. Oh, you mean SOFTWARE updates, right? No, I don't. I mean firmware updates. Get it straight, Herr Robust. "Firmware" is hardware. Actually, kindly old gent, you don't have it quite right. You may go to http://whatis.techtarget.com/definit...212127,00.html to educate yourself. Afterward, you may like to take a look at the site where such firmware upgrades are available for the Orion: http://www.rfsquared.com/ Please note the first two words in blue at the top center of the page. There is NO computer system anywhere in the world that will "download firmware." It appears that you are quite mistaken. Let's see, that's more than one per month. - Version 1.325 - initial release 03/26/03 Version 1.326 03/27/03 Version 1.327 03/28/03 Version 1.328 03/31/03 Version 1.329 04/01/03 Version 1.330 04/02/03 Version 1.331 04/03/04 Version 1.332 04/04/03 Version 1.333 04/06/03 Version 1.334 04/07/03 Version 1.335 04/08/03 Version 1.336 04/10/03 Version 1.337 04/11/03 - 04/13/03 Version 1.338 04/14/03 - 04/16/03 Version 1.339 04/26/03-05/06/03 Version 1.340 05/12/03-05/14/03 Version 1.341 05/19/03-05/22/03 Version 1.342 05/27/03 Version 1.343 06/03/03 Version 1.344 06/06/03 Version 1.345 06/11/03 Version 1.346 06/13/03 Version 1.347 06/25/03 Version 1.348 07/08/03 Version 1.349 07/10/03 VERSION 1.350 07/29/03 Version 1.351 08/07/03 Version 1.352 08/11/03 Version 1.353 08/12/03 Version 1.354 08/15/03 Version 1.355 08/19/03 Version 1.356 08/21/03 Version 1.357 08/22/03 Version 1.358 08/25/03 Version 1.359 09/12/03 Version 1.360 09/16/03 Version 1.361 09/25/03 Version 1.362 10/06/03 Version 1.363 10/22/03 Version 1.364 10/23/03 Version 1.365 11/14/03 Version 1.366 12/19/03 Version 1.367 Well, it certainly looks like more than one per month, doesn't it old fellow? Interestingly, the manufacturer lists the above list under "Firmware Revision History". All that many updates? Why would I have reason to manufacture a phony list? Tells me they didn't know what they were doing to begin with, or just shoved software and hardware out the door before they had finished testing the firmware and software. No, that's simply what you've guessed and you'd again be incorrect. I would think that Orion could have stabilized the programming by now. No new band changes have happened in eight months... :-) Really? I seem to recall adding 60m capability to the Orion. Weren't you paying attention? Were you under the impression that "band changes" were the only things which could be modified in the Orion? Apparently it can also TRANSPORT material things as they did on Star Trek. Perhaps they should have beamed up some smarts to release the RIGHT code the first time... I'm sure that you'd have done so and that you'd have designed a transceiver which performed much, much better. Your abilities are legend. Oh, my, you drone on busy prussian bee. It's like listening to a lecture on 1800s science...all done by amateurs. Nothing new, same old "landfill" remarks from the prussian. There's plenty new, Leonard. You may start your education after you learn about firmware. Dave K8MN |
Dave Heil wrote:
There's plenty new, Leonard. You may start your education after you learn about firmware. I just downloaded new firmware for my cable modem, over my cable modem. Guess I'll have to use UPS next time. 8^) - Mike KB3EIA - |
Mike Coslo wrote:
Dave Heil wrote: There's plenty new, Leonard. You may start your education after you learn about firmware. I just downloaded new firmware for my cable modem, over my cable modem. Guess I'll have to use UPS next time. 8^) Careful, Mike. Leonard is an electrical engineer and a proud electronics professional. Dave K8MN |
In article , Mike Coslo
writes: I just downloaded new firmware for my cable modem, over my cable modem. Something electro-existentialist about that, Mike. Reminds me of a Lily Tomlin joke where she describes going to the store and buying a wastepaper basket. At the checkout counter the cashier put the wastepaper basket in a paper bag. Once she got it home, Lily took the wastepaper basket out of the paper bag, folded up the paper bag, and put the paper bag into the wastepaper basket. 73 de Jim, N2EY |
Dave Heil wrote: Mike Coslo wrote: Dave Heil wrote: There's plenty new, Leonard. You may start your education after you learn about firmware. I just downloaded new firmware for my cable modem, over my cable modem. Guess I'll have to use UPS next time. 8^) Careful, Mike. Leonard is an electrical engineer and a proud electronics professional. Oh, I'm certain I'll get the old chops busted. I'm firmly convinced of that!! - Mike KB3EIA - |
N2EY wrote:
In article , Mike Coslo writes: I just downloaded new firmware for my cable modem, over my cable modem. Something electro-existentialist about that, Mike. Reminds me of a Lily Tomlin joke where she describes going to the store and buying a wastepaper basket. At the checkout counter the cashier put the wastepaper basket in a paper bag. Once she got it home, Lily took the wastepaper basket out of the paper bag, folded up the paper bag, and put the paper bag into the wastepaper basket. Yeah, I though of that after I reread the post. Cool!! - Mike KB3EIA - |
In article , Mike Coslo
writes: Dave Heil wrote: There's plenty new, Leonard. You may start your education after you learn about firmware. I just downloaded new firmware for my cable modem, over my cable modem. Guess I'll have to use UPS next time. 8^) Mike, "firmware" is programming instructions that are quite permanent, almost never alterable by a user. An example of "firmware" is a mask-programmed ROM. Not the erasable type such as in a 2716 EPROM. With the advent of FLASH memory the extra cost of masking for a mask-programmed ROM has fallen out of favor over the last decade. Once made, a mask-programmed ROM cannot be altered. Another example of "firmware" is the PLD or Programmable Logic Devices. Those are literally "blown" using on-chip "fuses" (links) which are vaporized by the programmer. Once done, the PLD can not be altered, thus it is not "upgradeable." There are EPROMs available which have NO UV-erase window. That cuts the cost of the package by a cent or two. Those are production-erased before programming, then programmed to the customer's request data by a multiple-unit programmer. Definitely FIRM ware since a user would have to open the IC package to erase the ROM and reprogram it. All microprocessors have "firmware" in them in the form of the Instruction Set decode-and-execute part of the chip. Those form the entire instruction set of the microprocessor and cannot be changed...hence the label of "firm." A rare form of "firmware" is the hard-wired logic arrangment of ICs, particularly with "state machines." That can only be "upgraded" with actual physical wire changes on the board. The 1979 Apple ][ Disk Controller card was mostly a state machine designed by Steve Wozniak himself. In early minicomputers the instruction set decoder was a combination of state machine and hard-wired logic chips; that evolved into ROM and then became part of the micro- processor chip structure. "Software" is instructions which can be altered by a user. Every program for a PC or MAC is a "software." The instructions or program are stored locally on a disk ("hard" or "floppy") and may be accessed at any time by the PC's disk operating system. Early software was loaded by paper tape, then magnetic tape, then by floppy, then by hard disk, finally by CD-ROM. A CD-ROM is not labelled either "firm" or "soft" since it contains software which is not easily altered by the user...but parts of each one can be rewritten if the content does not fill the CD. Software on so-called "protected" media can be defeated but that takes a modification of the CD writer program and probably some physical changes in the CD drive itself. The electronics industry has pretty well defined what is "firmware" and what is "software" over the last three decades. Lately (in the last half-dozen years) the appearance of the useable/programmable microcontroller such as Microchip's "PIC" series has allowed a re-programming of the stored program in the PIC's FLASH memory. This is because Microchip's design (and other microcontrollers) usually allow an extra package pin and internal registers/instruction- set for such reprogramming. That isn't always the case with mass- purchase special microcontrollers which may have the reprogramming feature inaccessible to the user. Examples of that are various low- cost appliances such as lawn sprinkler controllers or automatic coffee makers. On those, the only thing alterable is some settings of operation such as time. Settings sometimes go into FLASH memory but the user cannot necessarily alter the main instruction program set into the microcontroller. Industry is going away from the absolute labels of "firmware" with the new IC technologies. A microcontroller's program is simply called "a program" if it can be loaded over the existing program or otherwise changed by the user. Program content is still called "software" because that has become normal in the wider group of computer and consumer electronics users. Such software comes on CD-ROM, floppy disks, but sometimes (for hobbyists) as "source code" for a microcontroller's development program which can also load the program into the micro. "Source code" is the human-readable instructions of the program and the development program translates that into microcontroller machine code for programming. Anything that is "firm" in ware is not readily alterable by the user. Anything that is "soft" in ware is readily alterable by the user. If a program or data is downloadable over a modem, it does so in software form. You can call anything you want by whatever name you want but it won't necessarily be understood by a distributor or parts seller. There's several millions of folks involved in the worldwide electronics industry (which includes radio) so, if you want some "firmware" that can be downloaded over a modem, you'd best be VERY specific in describing it. You can call a spade a hoe, but be prepared to talk to the NAACP. LHA / WMD |
Len Over 21 wrote:
In article , Mike Coslo writes: Dave Heil wrote: There's plenty new, Leonard. You may start your education after you learn about firmware. I just downloaded new firmware for my cable modem, over my cable modem. Guess I'll have to use UPS next time. 8^) Mike, "firmware" is programming instructions that are quite permanent, almost never alterable by a user. Leonard, I can't alter the firmware upgrades. I can only replace the existing download with the new one. An example of "firmware" is a mask-programmed ROM. Not the erasable type such as in a 2716 EPROM. With the advent of FLASH memory the extra cost of masking for a mask-programmed ROM has fallen out of favor over the last decade. Once made, a mask-programmed ROM cannot be altered. I'm the user. I can't alter the program at all. I can, however, replace the program with an updated one. Another example of "firmware" is the PLD or Programmable Logic Devices. Those are literally "blown" using on-chip "fuses" (links) which are vaporized by the programmer. Once done, the PLD can not be altered, thus it is not "upgradeable." I'll bet that's what Ten-Tec has done! Those characters have used a PLD and simply put the serial port on the back of the Orion just for show. Users download the firmware upgrade, attach a serial cable and only think they are loading the newest version into the transceiver. Yep, that's probably what happened. There are EPROMs available which have NO UV-erase window. That cuts the cost of the package by a cent or two. Those are production-erased before programming, then programmed to the customer's request data by a multiple-unit programmer. Definitely FIRM ware since a user would have to open the IC package to erase the ROM and reprogram it. All microprocessors have "firmware" in them in the form of the Instruction Set decode-and-execute part of the chip. Those form the entire instruction set of the microprocessor and cannot be changed...hence the label of "firm." A rare form of "firmware" is the hard-wired logic arrangment of ICs, particularly with "state machines." That can only be "upgraded" with actual physical wire changes on the board. The 1979 Apple ][ Disk Controller card was mostly a state machine designed by Steve Wozniak himself. In early minicomputers the instruction set decoder was a combination of state machine and hard-wired logic chips; that evolved into ROM and then became part of the micro- processor chip structure. "Software" is instructions which can be altered by a user. Users can't alter the Orion's instructions. They can use them or not. They can load them into the transceiver or not. Every program for a PC or MAC is a "software." The Orion is not a PC or a Mac. The instructions or program are stored locally on a disk ("hard" or "floppy") and may be accessed at any time by the PC's disk operating system. Early software was loaded by paper tape, then magnetic tape, then by floppy, then by hard disk, finally by CD-ROM. The Orion has no hard drive, no floppy disks, no paper or magnetic tape and no CD-ROM drive. A CD-ROM is not labelled either "firm" or "soft" since it contains software which is not easily altered by the user...but parts of each one can be rewritten if the content does not fill the CD. Software on so-called "protected" media can be defeated but that takes a modification of the CD writer program and probably some physical changes in the CD drive itself. Nope. I checked. There's no CD-ROM drive on the Orion. The electronics industry has pretty well defined what is "firmware" and what is "software" over the last three decades. Lately (in the last half-dozen years) the appearance of the useable/programmable microcontroller such as Microchip's "PIC" series has allowed a re-programming of the stored program in the PIC's FLASH memory. This is because Microchip's design (and other microcontrollers) usually allow an extra package pin and internal registers/instruction- set for such reprogramming. That isn't always the case with mass- purchase special microcontrollers which may have the reprogramming feature inaccessible to the user. Examples of that are various low- cost appliances such as lawn sprinkler controllers or automatic coffee makers. On those, the only thing alterable is some settings of operation such as time. Settings sometimes go into FLASH memory but the user cannot necessarily alter the main instruction program set into the microcontroller. I'm the user. I can't alter the program. I provided you with a link to an accurate definition and one to Ten-Tec's site, the one with the big blue letters reading "Firmware Upgrades". Industry is going away from the absolute labels of "firmware" with the new IC technologies. A microcontroller's program is simply called "a program" if it can be loaded over the existing program or otherwise changed by the user. Program content is still called "software" because that has become normal in the wider group of computer and consumer electronics users. Such software comes on CD-ROM, floppy disks, but sometimes (for hobbyists) as "source code" for a microcontroller's development program which can also load the program into the micro. "Source code" is the human-readable instructions of the program and the development program translates that into microcontroller machine code for programming. Industry is going away from labels like "firmware"? Ten-Tec is an industry. Did you visit the site yet? Anything that is "firm" in ware is not readily alterable by the user. Anything that is "soft" in ware is readily alterable by the user. I can't alter the program, Leonard. It must be firmware. If a program or data is downloadable over a modem, it does so in software form. You'd better contact Ten-Tec and straighten those guys out! You can call anything you want by whatever name you want but it won't necessarily be understood by a distributor or parts seller. There's several millions of folks involved in the worldwide electronics industry (which includes radio) so, if you want some "firmware" that can be downloaded over a modem, you'd best be VERY specific in describing it. Uhhhhh, I didn't have to describe the firmware upgrades for Ten-Tec, Len. They described them for me. They produce them. I get to use them (but not alter them). They refer to them as firmware upgrades. I'm quite content with that term. So the Ten-Tec folks are happy. I'm happy. But, oh yes, you're not happy. Yet you have nothing to do with Ten-Tec and don't own an Orion. You can call a spade a hoe, but be prepared to talk to the NAACP. I've never asked Ten-Tec about garden tools but both they and I are quite amenable to discussing the firmware upgrades which they produce. You are as uninvolved with this one as you are in amateur radio. Dave K8MN |
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