Len Over 21 wrote:

You absolutely NAILED it Michael. Amateur radio was started and
sustained until post-WWII by tinkerers, experimenters, and technically
orientated types.

"Technically oriented," not 'orientated.'

"Sycophant", not "syncophant" (used thrice over several days).
"Belligerent", not "beligerant".
"Atilla", not "Atila".

The rest of Doctor Anderson's lecture has been omitted since there is an
ARRL (once a local Hartford, Connecticut club but no longer) and there
is an amateur radio.

Dave K8MN

In article k.net, "KØHB"
writes:

"Michael Black" wrote

| Take out that history from amateur radio, and I really
| don't see it starting up today.

You absolutely NAILED it Michael. Amateur radio was started and
sustained until post-WWII by tinkerers, experimenters, and technically
orientated types.

Also traffic handlers, ragchewers, DX and emergency types.
Skilled operators, IOW.

The early hams had to be technically oriented, because the
equipment of the time demanded it. A ham who knew what s/he
was doing could work the world with arelatively simple station,
while a ham who didn't couldn't hear a station in the next
town.

Of course, much of the development of electronics since those
times has been aimed at reducing and eliminating the need for
"users" to have technical knowledge and/or operator skill.
Amateur radio is one of the few places where such things are
considered important. Indeed, the whole concept of "radio
operator" has largely disappeared outside amateur radio.

That our service continues to exist today is a
miracle, attributable mainly to the efforts of RAC, ARRL, DARC, JARL,
IARU, RAE, RSGB, and all the other national societies who so far have
convinced the regulators to allow us to continue.

And the hams who make up those organizations.

The notion of a "start up" amateur radio service or any personal radio
service with such broad gifts of spectrum and freedom to experiment as
we enjoy wouldn't gain any traction at all in todays technological
environment.

Exactly. What might be created would resemble MURS or FRS, with lots of
restrictions and requirements, and very little of the freedom we take for
granted.

73 de Jim, N2EY

N2EY wrote:
In article k.net, "KØHB"
writes:


"Michael Black" wrote

| Take out that history from amateur radio, and I really
| don't see it starting up today.

You absolutely NAILED it Michael. Amateur radio was started and
sustained until post-WWII by tinkerers, experimenters, and technically
orientated types.


Also traffic handlers, ragchewers, DX and emergency types.
Skilled operators, IOW.

The early hams had to be technically oriented, because the
equipment of the time demanded it. A ham who knew what s/he
was doing could work the world with arelatively simple station,
while a ham who didn't couldn't hear a station in the next
town.

Of course, much of the development of electronics since those
times has been aimed at reducing and eliminating the need for
"users" to have technical knowledge and/or operator skill.
Amateur radio is one of the few places where such things are
considered important. Indeed, the whole concept of "radio
operator" has largely disappeared outside amateur radio.

Careful Jim!! One of the arguments against Morse testing is that
outside groups do not use Morse code any more, so it isn't needed. Since
outside groups don't use "trained radio operators" any more, this is one
more reason not to test for anything.

Carl will be very upset you put *this* idea in people minds too! ;^)

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

N2EY wrote:
In article k.net, "KØHB"
writes:


"Michael Black" wrote

| Take out that history from amateur radio, and I really
| don't see it starting up today.

You absolutely NAILED it Michael. Amateur radio was started and
sustained until post-WWII by tinkerers, experimenters, and technically
orientated types.


Also traffic handlers, ragchewers, DX and emergency types.
Skilled operators, IOW.

The early hams had to be technically oriented, because the
equipment of the time demanded it. A ham who knew what s/he
was doing could work the world with arelatively simple station,
while a ham who didn't couldn't hear a station in the next
town.

Of course, much of the development of electronics since those
times has been aimed at reducing and eliminating the need for
"users" to have technical knowledge and/or operator skill.
Amateur radio is one of the few places where such things are
considered important. Indeed, the whole concept of "radio
operator" has largely disappeared outside amateur radio.

Careful Jim!! One of the arguments against Morse testing is that
outside groups do not use Morse code any more, so it isn't needed. Since
outside groups don't use "trained radio operators" any more, this is one
more reason not to test for anything.

We've been going in that direction for almost 30 years, Mike.

The issue isn't Morse Code testing or question pools or VEs vs. FCC examiners.
It's much bigger than that.

Remember the old original Rod Serling "Twilight Zone" TV show? One of the most
memorable episodes was called "The Obsolete Man". Starred Burgess Meredith and
Dennis Weaver in a future totalitarian state where most books were banned.
Meredith's character was a librarian - and was declared "obsolete" by The
State,
because without most books there was no need for libraries or librarians.

From the beginnings of radio, the concept of "radio operator" has been part of
our thinking. To us, that concept means "a person trained and skilled in the
operation and adjustment of radio equipment". An honorable profession
going back to at least Jack Binns if not before.

Remember when ham rigs required skill and knowledge to use? A piece of gear
that the average person couldn't get a peep out of becomes a worldwide
communications system in the right hands. Some folks don't like that.

And it's exactly the concept of "radio operator" that some want to eliminate,
I think.

In the case of maritime radio, it was for economic reasons - the beancounters
said it was cheaper to buy satellite equipment than to pay ROs. Coast Guard
could replace their coast stations and ops with automated stuff. The military
and airlines did it years ago for similar reasons. Broadcasters hopped on the
wagon several years ago too. In fact it goes all the way back to Western Union
and the RRs getting rid of the wire telegraph.

The idea they're selling is simply that radio isn't supposed to require radio
operators, just as the telephone network and the internet don't require them.
That's why they avoid the word "radio" and instead say "cellphone" or "wireless
network" or "broadband" or "satellite" - *anything* but "radio". The "modern"
equipment is supposed to be so automatic that there's no need for operators, or
their skills.

Of course they can't just come out and say that, nor eliminate the licenses.
I don't see how arguing the point with FCC can accomplish anything but get them
mad at us, which we don't need.

I think the some folks are trying to slowly but surely declare radio operators
"obsolete" - along with their licenses.

All that's left is us hams to keep the concept alive.

Carl will be very upset you put *this* idea in people minds too! ;^)

Carl has expressed his disdain for the concept of skilled radio operators here.
Look up some of his posts under his old call (WA6VSE) and phrases such as
"electronic paintball wars" "stomp into the dust" "wetware modem" "emulate a
modem" "better modes and modulations"....

73 de Jim, N2EY

In article , (N2EY)
writes:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

N2EY wrote:
In article k.net,
"KØHB"
writes:


"Michael Black" wrote

| Take out that history from amateur radio, and I really
| don't see it starting up today.

You absolutely NAILED it Michael. Amateur radio was started and
sustained until post-WWII by tinkerers, experimenters, and technically
orientated types.


Also traffic handlers, ragchewers, DX and emergency types.
Skilled operators, IOW.

The early hams had to be technically oriented, because the
equipment of the time demanded it. A ham who knew what s/he
was doing could work the world with arelatively simple station,
while a ham who didn't couldn't hear a station in the next
town.

Of course, much of the development of electronics since those
times has been aimed at reducing and eliminating the need for
"users" to have technical knowledge and/or operator skill.
Amateur radio is one of the few places where such things are
considered important. Indeed, the whole concept of "radio
operator" has largely disappeared outside amateur radio.

Careful Jim!! One of the arguments against Morse testing is that
outside groups do not use Morse code any more, so it isn't needed. Since
outside groups don't use "trained radio operators" any more, this is one
more reason not to test for anything.

We've been going in that direction for almost 30 years, Mike.

You two are defining "trained radio operators" solely in terms of
RADIOTELEGRAPHY.

In the entire vast, much-bigger-than-amateurism world of radio
communications there is NO NEED of radio telegraphers. That has
been true for many years.

The FCC does not mandate, compel, or imply that morse code
must be used over and above any other allocated mode.

Yet, some radio amateurs insist that the essence, the prime
existance of amateur radio is all for radiotelegraphy skills. Why?

Rhetorical answer to the above should be obvious. :-)

The issue isn't Morse Code testing or question pools or VEs vs. FCC
examiners.
It's much bigger than that.

"Much bigger than that?"

Not in this newsgroup. :-)

Remember the old original Rod Serling "Twilight Zone" TV show? One of the
most
memorable episodes was called "The Obsolete Man". Starred Burgess Meredith
and
Dennis Weaver in a future totalitarian state where most books were banned.
Meredith's character was a librarian - and was declared "obsolete" by The
State,
because without most books there was no need for libraries or librarians.

This newsgroup is NOT a forum for critiquing fictitious television
shows, FAA policy, or nursing.

FACT: Radiotelegraphy IS becoming obsolete, even in amateur radio.

FACT: Radiotelegraphy is NOT used for prime radio communications
outside of amateur radio except in isolated uses in maritime radio.

From the beginnings of radio, the concept of "radio operator" has been part of
our thinking. To us, that concept means "a person trained and skilled in the
operation and adjustment of radio equipment".

To US who were in the big-time radio communications on HF of a half
century ago, that did not involve morse code. There were and still are
a lot of "US" involved in that.

As usual, there is considerable misconstruance on equating "skilled
radio operator" with radio telegrapher.

An honorable profession
going back to at least Jack Binns if not before.

Amateur radio is NOT a profession. By definition of law.

Remember when ham rigs required skill and knowledge to use? A piece of gear
that the average person couldn't get a peep out of becomes a worldwide
communications system in the right hands. Some folks don't like that.

I was IN worldwide communications on HF over a half century ago.
At the time I liked it fine...even felt honored to be able to serve my
country doing just that.

None of that involved morse code.

And it's exactly the concept of "radio operator" that some want to
eliminate, I think.

You think mistakenly, but your freedom exists to state that you
think as you do and "much better" than others. :-)

Tens of thousands of skilled radio operators worldwide have used
worldwide communications effectively for decades without ever
once having to use or know morse code. They have done so for
over a half century.

The year is 2004. It is not the 1920s or the 1930s when radio was
a rarity that only a few knew or understood.

You cannot maintain a status quo in a technological field solely on
the grounds of having "mastered" a particular skill that was once a
necessity, especially one whose necessity was before your life
existance.

In the case of maritime radio, it was for economic reasons - the beancounters
said it was cheaper to buy satellite equipment than to pay ROs. Coast Guard
could replace their coast stations and ops with automated stuff. The military
and airlines did it years ago for similar reasons. Broadcasters hopped on the
wagon several years ago too. In fact it goes all the way back to Western
Union and the RRs getting rid of the wire telegraph.

Too narrow a focus.

The essence of radio operation is to effect COMMUNICATIONS. It is
not about USING a radio.

The idea they're selling is simply that radio isn't supposed to require radio
operators, just as the telephone network and the internet don't require them.

The only ones "selling" the concept of "skilled radio telegrapher" seems
to be the ARRL and its faithful Believer membership.

The U.S. military did not require any morsemanship to use the very
first handheld transceivers (on HF) for communications in 1940. That's
64 years ago. Neither did they require any morsemanship to use the
first backpack radio (on VHF) in 1943. That's 61 years ago.

Did broadcasters EVER use radiotelegraphy? I don't think so. The
broadcasters and the government of the USA tossed amateurs off of
MF a very long time ago. Broadcasters have continued to operate
on fixed frequencies for long, long operating times due to good design
of equipment, never really had any need to "operate" the radio
transmitters in the amateur (apparent) definition. [been there, done
that, got the signed backs licenses] Broadcasters concentrate on
program production, not the continual operation of their transmitters.

The hundreds of thousands of PLMRS transceivers are not "operated"
every day in the apparent amateur sense. The essence of such
radios is to communicate and get information, not to "work other
stations" to get QSL cards or to engage in "radiosport."

That's why they avoid the word "radio" and instead say "cellphone" or
"wireless
network" or "broadband" or "satellite" - *anything* but "radio".

You haven't been in the wider world of radio communications if you
think thusly. :-)

The key word in the rest of the radio world has always been
COMMUNICATIONS, not the operation of radios.

A wireless network is called "wireless" since it does not use wires
as in a wired local area network linking computes. Neither network
requires "trained radio operators" to use and never did. :-)

"Satellite" as spoken of in the communications field refers to the
communications satellite, usually (but not always) in a geo-
synchronous orbit. There are other types of satellites and all of
them use radio in various forms for control, guidance, telemetry
as well as communications. There are no manned satellites yet.
Only the International Space Station is manned.

"Broadband" is a generic term for any data, video, or other
communications that requires a broad bandwidth in its
propagation path. That applies to both wired, fibered, or
radioed communications paths and the "broadness" depends
on the rate of communications.

The telephone was conceived as a simple-to-use
communications device, primarily for individual users. A cellular
telephone is an extension of the telephone using a small two-
way radio to complete the wireless extension. A "cellphone"
is releatively easy to use, so much so that the number of USA
cellphone subscribers is one in every three citizens.

The "modern"
equipment is supposed to be so automatic that there's no need for operators,
or their skills.

That worked out very nicely, thanks be to the engineers and designers
who made it all possible. :-)

Of course they can't just come out and say that, nor eliminate the licenses.
I don't see how arguing the point with FCC can accomplish anything but get
them mad at us, which we don't need.

So...the old thoughts about keeping a living museum of ancient radio
skills in amateurism is out? :-)

I think the some folks are trying to slowly but surely declare radio operators
"obsolete" - along with their licenses.

Radiotelegraphers ARE obsolete. They just refuse to admit it. :-)

All that's left is us hams to keep the concept alive.

Ah! The concept of a living museum of ancient radio skills is still
alive!

Carl will be very upset you put *this* idea in people minds too! ;^)

Carl has expressed his disdain for the concept of skilled radio operators
here.
Look up some of his posts under his old call (WA6VSE) and phrases such as
"electronic paintball wars" "stomp into the dust" "wetware modem" "emulate a
modem" "better modes and modulations"....

Tsk, tsk, tsk...still feeling pain of old, old newsgroup gropes? :-)

Olde-tyme radio amateurs who are firm Believers of the standards
and practices of the 1930s should TRY to approach the new
millennium with some up-to-date concepts.

Radiotelegraphy IS obsolete...everywhere but in amateur radio.

Radiotelegraphy is on the road to Defunctville.

Radiotelegraphy is as modern as horses and buggies on
interstate highways...restricted to a cult status like the Amish
who froze all their technology past an ancient time.

Keep polishing the handle on the door of the Living Museum of
Archaic Radio. Who knows what visitors will show up?

LHA / WMD

N2EY wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Carl will be very upset you put *this* idea in people minds too! ;^)


Carl has expressed his disdain for the concept of skilled radio operators here.
Look up some of his posts under his old call (WA6VSE) and phrases such as
"electronic paintball wars" "stomp into the dust" "wetware modem" "emulate a
modem" "better modes and modulations"....



I wonder where Carl is lately? Haven't heard from him since he had the
change of heart regarding the testing.

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article ,
(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...

In the entire vast, much-bigger-than-amateurism world of radio
communications there is NO NEED of radio telegraphers. That has
been true for many years.

HEY SCUMBAG!

Well, the gunnery nurse's "attitude" adjustment seems to have lasted
only a few days.

That may be a record in here! :-)

This forum is about AMATEUR RADIO. You yourself have
"acknowledged" that on several occassions, yet you quickly "forget"
your own assertions when you want to "make" your point.

This is NOT "commercial" radio...Not the Armed Forces or maritime
services.

Neither is it about "nursing" or "piloting," ace gunnery nurse.

However, radio is radio, and the physics of same does NOT change
because an administration defines certain radio activities as
"amateur."

Are you having a problem with this concept?

No, but you are definitely still having a problem with "attitude."

Is your ONLY "argument" that since the military allegedly doesn't
use Morse Code, then we don't?

The U.S. military does NOT use any morse code for communications.

The U.S. military only requires morse code cognition by a relative
handfull of military intelligence specialists engaged in monitoring
and intercepting enemy and potential-enemy messaging.

If so, you're a bigger idiot than you let on, although that in
itself would be a pretty hard order to fill.

Now now, gunnery nurse, keep that B.P. down, take your blood
pressure medication like a good patient...and climb down from
the table top, your fists were hitting the dining room light.

LHA / WMD

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , (N2EY)
writes:

To US who were in the big-time radio communications on HF of a half
century ago, that did not involve morse code. There were and still are
a lot of "US" involved in that.

For some of US who've had more recent experience than yours, morse was
involved. For many of us who are actually radio amateurs and who are
participants in big-time radio HF communications today, morse code is
still involved. What are you doing in big-time HF these days?


I was IN worldwide communications on HF over a half century ago.
At the time I liked it fine...even felt honored to be able to serve my
country doing just that.

None of that involved morse code.

....and because you didn't use morse, no one used it at the time or
since.
A number of us have used morse professionally and as radio amateurs in
the decades after you had your "big-time".

Tens of thousands of skilled radio operators worldwide have used
worldwide communications effectively for decades without ever
once having to use or know morse code. They have done so for
over a half century.

Tens of thousands of skilled radio ops worldwide *have* used morse
effectively for worldwide communications after your day in the sun.
Tens of thousands still do so.


The U.S. military did not require any morsemanship to use the very
first handheld transceivers (on HF) for communications in 1940. That's
64 years ago. Neither did they require any morsemanship to use the
first backpack radio (on VHF) in 1943. That's 61 years ago.

Yet the military continued to use morse. What's your point?


The hundreds of thousands of PLMRS transceivers are not "operated"
every day in the apparent amateur sense. The essence of such
radios is to communicate and get information, not to "work other
stations" to get QSL cards or to engage in "radiosport."

The hundreds of thousands of amateur radio ops work DX, engage in
radiosport, check into nets or engage in public service communications
without touching a PLMRS transceiver.


"Broadband" is a generic term for any data, video, or other
communications that requires a broad bandwidth in its
propagation path. That applies to both wired, fibered, or
radioed communications paths and the "broadness" depends
on the rate of communications.

I see. "Broadband" means "broad bandwidth". You could have knocked me
over with a feather when I read your words. So to your way of thinking
on "broadness", a morse communication at 5 wpm on 10 KHz could be
considered "broadband"?

Dave K8MN

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...
N2EY wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Carl will be very upset you put *this* idea in people minds too! ;^)


Carl has expressed his disdain for the concept of skilled radio operators here.
Look up some of his posts under his old call (WA6VSE) and phrases such as
"electronic paintball wars" "stomp into the dust" "wetware modem" "emulate a
modem" "better modes and modulations"....



I wonder where Carl is lately? Haven't heard from him since he had the
change of heart regarding the testing.

- Mike KB3EIA -


Mike, speaking of a change of heart testing, check this out:

--------------------
(William) wrote in message . com...
(William) wrote in message . com...
(William) wrote in message . com...
(N2EY) wrote in message ...
In article ,
(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) writes:
Morse Code endorsement required for opera-
tion in lower 100kHz of any band.

Bad idea. Acts as a disincentive to use CW and digital modes, and as an
incentive to use voice only!

Ahem, The Amateur Formerly Known As Rev. Jim, we've had that very same
or greater disincentive since 1912.

Why is it NOW a problem?
---------------------

Almost makes you want to think!

Good thing we have the old PCTA double standard to fall back on.

73, bb

In article , Dave Heil
trying to go for the jugular but getting only a juggler writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article ,
(N2EY)
writes:

To US who were in the big-time radio communications on HF of a half
century ago, that did not involve morse code. There were and still are
a lot of "US" involved in that.

For some of US who've had more recent experience than yours, morse was
involved. For many of us who are actually radio amateurs and who are
participants in big-time radio HF communications today, morse code is
still involved. What are you doing in big-time HF these days?

In big-time HF, not a heckuva lot. There's very little left of the BIG
TIME HF communications efforts of a half century ago.

Armature radio deeecksing is "big time?" Nope. Not a drop in a
bit bucket compared to the communications carriers of not too long
ago. You'd LOVE to think it was "big time" but that is only how it
is written up in QST.

The only radio service still requiring morse code for communications
is amatoor radio. All the other radio services either gave up on it or
never considered it in the first place.

I was IN worldwide communications on HF over a half century ago.
At the time I liked it fine...even felt honored to be able to serve my
country doing just that.

None of that involved morse code.

...and because you didn't use morse, no one used it at the time or since.
A number of us have used morse professionally and as radio amateurs in
the decades after you had your "big-time".

Nope, snarly dave, the Army gave up on morse code for fixed-point
to fixed-point long-distance communications back in 1948, before my
service time. The Navy's long-haul fixed comms were the same way.
Same for the USAF although all the branches maintained some
morse code proficiency requirements and circuits until the early 70s
(rather small efforts). I'm sure Department of State was able to put
some of that obsolete military equipment to good use after it had a
life in active military duty.

Tens of thousands of skilled radio operators worldwide have used
worldwide communications effectively for decades without ever
once having to use or know morse code. They have done so for
over a half century.

Tens of thousands of skilled radio ops worldwide *have* used morse
effectively for worldwide communications after your day in the sun.
Tens of thousands still do so.

Sorry, snarly dave, that's just your Article of Faith. You WANT to
think that is true but it's far in the past and never the numbers you
can prove. The PROOF is seeing what radio circuits use what on
HF...even when HF was a mainstay of communications carriers.

Don't let me stop your rationale invention. Improve the state of the
rationale art, innovate, improvise, adapt...

The U.S. military did not require any morsemanship to use the very
first handheld transceivers (on HF) for communications in 1940. That's
64 years ago. Neither did they require any morsemanship to use the
first backpack radio (on VHF) in 1943. That's 61 years ago.

Yet the military continued to use morse. What's your point?

EVOLUTION, you throwback to failed Darwinism.

Do you need a DayGlo billboard to outline it? WAKE UP.

The state of the art of radio communications long since bypassed
morsemanship skills.

It doesn't take rocket science intellect to use, operate ANY radio.

Morsemanship needs only repetitive Pavlovian training to become
a wetware modem...provided the basic aptitude is present.

NO modern communications carrier uses any morse code. Such
skills went byebye some time ago.

Teletype Corporation didn't make a half million teleprinters during
their corporate existance to copy morse code.


The hundreds of thousands of amateur radio ops work DX, engage in
radiosport, check into nets or engage in public service communications
without touching a PLMRS transceiver.

Wow! Really?!?

No hams work in a business that has a Public Land Mobile Radio
Services radio? No hams work on railroads or in heavy trucking or
vehicle road service trucks? No hams in construction of large
buildings or engaged in HVAC or plumbing maintenance of same?
No hams are policemen or firemen or paramedics? No hams are in
the broadcast industry using remote links controlled through PLMRS
comms?

They are all on HF engaging in "radiosport" and net checking to
advance the state of the art of radio and morsemanship?

Now all that "radiosport" and "net checking" is fun and recreational
and enjoyed by many but it is hardly any sort of technical
advancement or honing skills useful in case of national need.

Your mileage on the newsgroup rageometer will, of course, vary.

Foaming at the mouth is normal, sarly dave, but don't forget to
brush after every meal.

I see. "Broadband" means "broad bandwidth". You could have knocked me
over with a feather when I read your words. So to your way of thinking
on "broadness", a morse communication at 5 wpm on 10 KHz could be
considered "broadband"?

No. I'd say that 5 words per minute on 10 KHz could possibly be
interfering with USN submarine alert frequencies. Those are on VLF.
It's not nice to interfere with boomers or sharks, big daddy dave.
Such wouldn't mean a "Riley" knocking on your door, but some very
serious "attitude" folks carrying heavy artillery.

Now show us some REAL innovations and inventions done by hams
over the last 50 years or so concerning RADIO. Other than Dan
Tayloe that I've already mentioned several times.

Or just continue to make nasty in here on the UnBelievers who
don't worship at the shrine of St. Hiram.

LHA / WMD

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Dave Heil
trying to go for the jugular but getting only a juggler writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article ,
(N2EY)
writes:

To US who were in the big-time radio communications on HF of a half
century ago, that did not involve morse code. There were and still are
a lot of "US" involved in that.

For some of US who've had more recent experience than yours, morse was
involved. For many of us who are actually radio amateurs and who are
participants in big-time radio HF communications today, morse code is
still involved. What are you doing in big-time HF these days?

In big-time HF, not a heckuva lot. There's very little left of the BIG
TIME HF communications efforts of a half century ago.

There's plenty of BIG-TIME HF communications, Leonard. You simply
aren't involved in it any more than you are amateur radio and it didn't
happen fifty years ago.

Armature radio deeecksing is "big time?" Nope. Not a drop in a
bit bucket compared to the communications carriers of not too long
ago. You'd LOVE to think it was "big time" but that is only how it
is written up in QST.

Sure, Leonard. Compared with what is available to you, it is plenty
big-time, especially if done right--big towers, big antennas, all the
power the law allows. I don't have to read about it, I'm able to
participate.

The only radio service still requiring morse code for communications
is amatoor radio. All the other radio services either gave up on it or
never considered it in the first place.

I really don't care. Morse is alive and well in amateur radio. I don't
use it as my sole operating mode anyway.

I was IN worldwide communications on HF over a half century ago.
At the time I liked it fine...even felt honored to be able to serve my
country doing just that.

None of that involved morse code.

...and because you didn't use morse, no one used it at the time or since.
A number of us have used morse professionally and as radio amateurs in
the decades after you had your "big-time".

Nope, snarly dave, the Army gave up on morse code for fixed-point
to fixed-point long-distance communications back in 1948, before my
service time. The Navy's long-haul fixed comms were the same way.

I think you must have your facts in disarray.

Same for the USAF although all the branches maintained some
morse code proficiency requirements and circuits until the early 70s
(rather small efforts).

The Air Force never used much two way CW.

I'm sure Department of State was able to put
some of that obsolete military equipment to good use after it had a
life in active military duty.

I never used any surplus military gear at all, Lumpy. It was commercial
gear all the way.

Tens of thousands of skilled radio operators worldwide have used
worldwide communications effectively for decades without ever
once having to use or know morse code. They have done so for
over a half century.

Tens of thousands of skilled radio ops worldwide *have* used morse
effectively for worldwide communications after your day in the sun.
Tens of thousands still do so.

Sorry, snarly dave, that's just your Article of Faith. You WANT to
think that is true but it's far in the past and never the numbers you
can prove.

That isn't correct at all, Leonard. My statement is pure fact and I
have the log books to back it up. There are plenty of other sources
including logs in existence.

The PROOF is seeing what radio circuits use what on
HF...even when HF was a mainstay of communications carriers.

PROOF exists in my logs and the logs of countless others. Would you
like some hundreds of thousands of QSOs to peruse?

Don't let me stop your rationale invention. Improve the state of the
rationale art, innovate, improvise, adapt...

The U.S. military did not require any morsemanship to use the very
first handheld transceivers (on HF) for communications in 1940. That's
64 years ago. Neither did they require any morsemanship to use the
first backpack radio (on VHF) in 1943. That's 61 years ago.

Yet the military continued to use morse. What's your point?

EVOLUTION, you throwback to failed Darwinism.

Do you need a DayGlo billboard to outline it? WAKE UP.

Okay, the military continued to use morse long after the introduction of
the equipement you mentioned. This demonstrates EVOLUTION in what way?

The state of the art of radio communications long since bypassed
morsemanship skills.

It doesn't take rocket science intellect to use, operate ANY radio.

I'd love the opportunity to sit you down in front of my Orion for a few
hours...

Morsemanship needs only repetitive Pavlovian training to become
a wetware modem...provided the basic aptitude is present.

NO modern communications carrier uses any morse code. Such
skills went byebye some time ago.

Teletype Corporation didn't make a half million teleprinters during
their corporate existance to copy morse code.

Vibroplex didn't make all those paddles and bugs to copy Baudot. I
frequently use Baudot though but I don't have equipment manufactured by
Teletype or Kleinschmidt. Radio amateurs still use morse regularly.
What the commercials do worries me not. I'm enjoying amateur radio as
an avocation, not as a business.

Dave K8MN


Dave K8MN

In article , Dave Heil
foams at the mouth and writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Dave Heil

trying to go for the jugular but getting only a juggler writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article ,
(N2EY)
writes:

To US who were in the big-time radio communications on HF of a half
century ago, that did not involve morse code. There were and still
are
a lot of "US" involved in that.

For some of US who've had more recent experience than yours, morse was
involved. For many of us who are actually radio amateurs and who are
participants in big-time radio HF communications today, morse code is
still involved. What are you doing in big-time HF these days?

In big-time HF, not a heckuva lot. There's very little left of the BIG
TIME HF communications efforts of a half century ago.

There's plenty of BIG-TIME HF communications, Leonard. You simply
aren't involved in it any more than you are amateur radio and it didn't
happen fifty years ago.

So, you are saying the Army Command and Administrative Network
"didn't exist fifty years ago?" There was no such thing?!?

Mais non. ACAN existed very much, very big, running more traffic
every month through one station than the fabled NTS could ever
"work" in a year.

You weren't there. You couldn't know. But, you pretend you do.

Pretense is what you are. Try a tranquilizer. You won't be as tense.

Armature radio deeecksing is "big time?" Nope. Not a drop in a
bit bucket compared to the communications carriers of not too long
ago. You'd LOVE to think it was "big time" but that is only how it
is written up in QST.

Sure, Leonard. Compared with what is available to you, it is plenty
big-time, especially if done right--big towers, big antennas, all the
power the law allows. I don't have to read about it, I'm able to
participate.

My, my, back to the old puerile comparison of genitalia in radio?

Snarly dave, you don't know squat what "I've got available to me."

All you got left is HOBBY activities.

Long past the "pioneering of HF" period in hamdom.

The only radio service still requiring morse code for communications
is amatoor radio. All the other radio services either gave up on it or
never considered it in the first place.

I really don't care. Morse is alive and well in amateur radio. I don't
use it as my sole operating mode anyway.

So, if you "really don't care," why are you foaming at the mouth so
much, making nasty to all those that don't kiss your asterisk?

Okay, you love and adore morse code.

So, why must everyone ALSO love and adore morse code and keep
the morse code test forever and ever in amateur regulations?

Who really cares WHAT you use, snarly dave?

I was IN worldwide communications on HF over a half century ago.
At the time I liked it fine...even felt honored to be able to serve
my
country doing just that.

None of that involved morse code.

...and because you didn't use morse, no one used it at the time or since.
A number of us have used morse professionally and as radio amateurs in
the decades after you had your "big-time".

Nope, snarly dave, the Army gave up on morse code for fixed-point
to fixed-point long-distance communications back in 1948, before my
service time. The Navy's long-haul fixed comms were the same way.

I think you must have your facts in disarray.

Tsk, tsk, tsk. No. Try swinging YOUR disarray away from some
imaginary time. Your front-to-back ratio is terrible.

Sweetums, I WORKED IN that Big Leagues of military comms in the
Pacific back then and know several who were there at the same time,
including one civilian. It was REAL. All kinds of documentation on
it.

Why do you keep on DENYING it so much?

Are you afraid your imaginary beliefs will be exposed?

Same for the USAF although all the branches maintained some
morse code proficiency requirements and circuits until the early 70s
(rather small efforts).

The Air Force never used much two way CW.

What? You were some comms chief in the USAF "in charge" of
Globecom or something?

I'm sure Department of State was able to put
some of that obsolete military equipment to good use after it had a
life in active military duty.

I never used any surplus military gear at all, Lumpy. It was commercial
gear all the way.

I said Department of State, wonder ham.

I really don't care. State never had any network close to the military's
and still doen't. Access to the DSN now may be argued as being
"part of it" but only you and your kind of morsemen would try to stretch
things that far.

Tens of thousands of skilled radio operators worldwide have used
worldwide communications effectively for decades without ever
once having to use or know morse code. They have done so for
over a half century.

Tens of thousands of skilled radio ops worldwide *have* used morse
effectively for worldwide communications after your day in the sun.
Tens of thousands still do so.

Sorry, snarly dave, that's just your Article of Faith. You WANT to
think that is true but it's far in the past and never the numbers you
can prove.

That isn't correct at all, Leonard. My statement is pure fact and I
have the log books to back it up. There are plenty of other sources
including logs in existence.

You've got "logs" all over, snarly dave.

No one really cares what kind of "P-51 time" you noted in. :-)

[ old aviation joke...snarly dave wouldn't understand ]


The PROOF is seeing what radio circuits use what on
HF...even when HF was a mainstay of communications carriers.

PROOF exists in my logs and the logs of countless others. Would you
like some hundreds of thousands of QSOs to peruse?

Digitize them and send them out if that makes you happy.

Now, how do you authenticate all of those?

Do we take you as supremely "honest?"

As much as anyone takes spammers "honesty."

Don't let me stop your rationale invention. Improve the state of the
rationale art, innovate, improvise, adapt...

The U.S. military did not require any morsemanship to use the very
first handheld transceivers (on HF) for communications in 1940.
That's
64 years ago. Neither did they require any morsemanship to use the
first backpack radio (on VHF) in 1943. That's 61 years ago.

Yet the military continued to use morse. What's your point?

EVOLUTION, you throwback to failed Darwinism.

Do you need a DayGlo billboard to outline it? WAKE UP.

Okay, the military continued to use morse long after the introduction of
the equipement you mentioned. This demonstrates EVOLUTION in what way?

"Equipement?" :-)

The U.S. military does not use any morse code for communications now.
It quit doing so several years ago. Many several years in fact.

No communications carrier service in the USA uses any morse code.
Railroads don't use it. Shipping on land doesn't use it. Businesses
don't use it, even if they are making-selling morse code devices.

Tens of thousands of olde-tyme hammes use morse code. Amateurs.

Are they thinking they are "advancing the state of the radio art" by
doing so? Are they "pioneering the airways" as was done in the 20s
and 30s? Or don't they know any better way to communicate?

The state of the art of radio communications long since bypassed
morsemanship skills.

It doesn't take rocket science intellect to use, operate ANY radio.

I'd love the opportunity to sit you down in front of my Orion for a few
hours...

Oh wow! Snarly dave is going to overwhem me with complicated
knobs and switches and instructions on a box of electronics!

Snarly dave, you important, electronically impotent sot, ALL
electronics and radio systems ARE complicated, complex, and
must be some kind of arcane magic to you. I know because I've
seen the same self-importancy demonstrated before, even once
about a system I helped design and develop. :-)

Yeah, snarly dave, I'll "sit down in front of your orion." If and only
if you sit down in front of any radio system I've used in the last
decade. Can you afford air fare and lodging to Pasadena? I can
show you some of the JPL Deep Space Network...after the Rover
missions, please, they are a bit busy right now. You can't sit down
in the avionics compartments of an F-18 or F-16 but you can get an
idea, maybe a glimmering of what those are about...except you'll
quickly get snowed even with a Have Quick. I can get you into
KNBC and the master control in Burbank; they have tours for that
sort of thing, no problem. You've never "ridden" a modern TV control
board, have you? I can get a Novice license holder to show you how
it all works...Tom won two Emmys for TV direction, different years.

All of that involves RADIO, snarly dave. None of it is amateur. It is
all very professional/commercial. You will get snowed in mentally
worse than the northeast has ever gotten.

But...you ARE TESTED FOR MORSE CODE AND AN EXTRA!

You can afford an expensive radio toy to pursue your "radiosport."
And, of course, tell everyone about and go nyah, nyah, "you ain't
as good as dave!"

If YOU had to test for morse code then everyone else MUST.

It's the law. That law can never be changed, right?


Morsemanship needs only repetitive Pavlovian training to become
a wetware modem...provided the basic aptitude is present.

NO modern communications carrier uses any morse code. Such
skills went byebye some time ago.

Teletype Corporation didn't make a half million teleprinters during
their corporate existance to copy morse code.

Vibroplex didn't make all those paddles and bugs to copy Baudot. I
frequently use Baudot though but I don't have equipment manufactured by
Teletype or Kleinschmidt. Radio amateurs still use morse regularly.
What the commercials do worries me not. I'm enjoying amateur radio as
an avocation, not as a business.

Most of Teletype Corporation's hundreds of thousands of Teletypes
didn't use "Baudot" as in the old 5-level code. They used the 8-level
ASCII. The half-millionth Teletype was on display in gold plating at
many electronics industry trade shows in the 1980s. Too bad you
couldn't have seen one. But, you are an amateur and not in the
business. It would make your Vibroplex just vibrate all over! :-)

You are "enjoying amateur radio" so that you can make like a big
shot (with the O stretched vertically) and snarl at those who don't
care to take any code test...or those who worked in BIG HF comms
before your time...or those who won't kneel down and kiss your
asterisk. Or all of the above.

Nice not talking to you, snarly dave. Have fun "on the bands."
All below 30 MHz, that is, in tiny little bands below 10 meters.

LHA / WMD

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Dave Heil
trying to go for the jugular but getting only a juggler writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article ,
(N2EY)
writes:

The hundreds of thousands of amateur radio ops work DX, engage in
radiosport, check into nets or engage in public service communications
without touching a PLMRS transceiver.

Wow! Really?!?

No hams work in a business that has a Public Land Mobile Radio
Services radio? No hams work on railroads or in heavy trucking or
vehicle road service trucks? No hams in construction of large
buildings or engaged in HVAC or plumbing maintenance of same?
No hams are policemen or firemen or paramedics? No hams are in
the broadcast industry using remote links controlled through PLMRS
comms?

Oh, I see your confusion. You thought I meant *other than on the ham
bands*!

They are all on HF engaging in "radiosport" and net checking to
advance the state of the art of radio and morsemanship?

Did I write "all" or did you just gather it from the ether?

Now all that "radiosport" and "net checking" is fun and recreational
and enjoyed by many but it is hardly any sort of technical
advancement or honing skills useful in case of national need.

How do you know much about it--by having someone you know tell you of
it? By reading about it on the web? By browsing through the pages of
QST at your local library? Were you under the impression that hams are
mandated to participate in technical advancement? Are there no
operational skills needed by the nation?

Your mileage on the newsgroup rageometer will, of course, vary.

Foaming at the mouth is normal, sarly dave, but don't forget to
brush after every meal.

I see. "Broadband" means "broad bandwidth". You could have knocked me
over with a feather when I read your words. So to your way of thinking
on "broadness", a morse communication at 5 wpm on 10 KHz could be
considered "broadband"?

No. I'd say that 5 words per minute on 10 KHz could possibly be
interfering with USN submarine alert frequencies. Those are on VLF.
It's not nice to interfere with boomers or sharks, big daddy dave.
Such wouldn't mean a "Riley" knocking on your door, but some very
serious "attitude" folks carrying heavy artillery.

I know in which part of the spectrum 10 KHz is located. That you didn't
care to answer the question is noted. We'll just accept your definition
of "broadband" as, well....broadband.

Now show us some REAL innovations and inventions done by hams
over the last 50 years or so concerning RADIO. Other than Dan
Tayloe that I've already mentioned several times.

No radio amateur anywhere has done anything if you haven't known about
it.
It can't have happened. Nothing you have no knowledge of can possibly
have happened. You are the ONLY PROFESSIONAL in radio. *snicker*

Or just continue to make nasty in here on the UnBelievers who
don't worship at the shrine of St. Hiram.

Worship? You aren't even baptised as a licensed ham, Leonard. You have
naught to do with amateur radio. You're among the unwashed.

Several decades of declared interest in amateur radio + over seven years
of windy, condescending posts here + four years of inaction on your
"Extra right out of the box" = Leonard H. Anderson, potential radio
amateur :-)

Dave K8MN

In article , Dave Heil confused in the
east...and north...and south writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Dave Heil

trying to go for the jugular but getting only a juggler writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article ,
(N2EY)
writes:

The hundreds of thousands of amateur radio ops work DX, engage in
radiosport, check into nets or engage in public service communications
without touching a PLMRS transceiver.

Wow! Really?!?

No hams work in a business that has a Public Land Mobile Radio
Services radio? No hams work on railroads or in heavy trucking or
vehicle road service trucks? No hams in construction of large
buildings or engaged in HVAC or plumbing maintenance of same?
No hams are policemen or firemen or paramedics? No hams are in
the broadcast industry using remote links controlled through PLMRS
comms?

Oh, I see your confusion. You thought I meant *other than on the ham
bands*!

Who knows what lurks in your four neurons, snarly dave?

[da shadow do?]


They are all on HF engaging in "radiosport" and net checking to
advance the state of the art of radio and morsemanship?

Did I write "all" or did you just gather it from the ether?

No, nitrous oxide.

I have to take an anaesthetic when I go in here to read all this "expert
radio nowledge stuf." One needs to dull the senses down to the
extra level...

Now all that "radiosport" and "net checking" is fun and recreational
and enjoyed by many but it is hardly any sort of technical
advancement or honing skills useful in case of national need.

How do you know much about it--by having someone you know tell you of
it? By reading about it on the web? By browsing through the pages of
QST at your local library? Were you under the impression that hams are
mandated to participate in technical advancement? Are there no
operational skills needed by the nation?

Why are you asking?

You are an Extra. You know Everything because you are Qualified
by a federal agency, complete with pretty little certificate (suitable
for framing)!



I know in which part of the spectrum 10 KHz is located.

Did you download that firmware fact from Ten-Tec too?


No radio amateur anywhere has done anything if you haven't known about it.

Awwww...now you are acting all peevish. Tsk, tsk, tsk.


Worship? You aren't even baptised as a licensed ham, Leonard.

Tsk, tsk, tsk, pope dave the furst become a religious sellout?

The Church doesn't issue ham licenses, snarly dave.

The FDA grades ham.

You have naught to do with amateur radio.

I haven't gotten around to tuning in the naught, snarly dave.

Nothing to listen to in the naught.

You're among the unwashed.

Untrue! I just downloaded an extra shower from Ten-Tec's very firm
ware download section. Was inexpensive economy model but was
complete with 100 gallons of hot water. Soap extra.

Took a long time to download. I would need DSL for the most
expensive model's download. Is that the firm ware download you
got, snarly dave? Come clean, now...



Several decades of declared interest in amateur radio + over seven years
of windy, condescending posts here + four years of inaction on your
"Extra right out of the box" = Leonard H. Anderson, potential radio
amateur :-)

Didn't you forget my claim that I was going to invent anti-gravity?

I'm still working on that one, but something's holding me down...






Now sit down in front of your orion, snarly dave. Amaze yourself.

We are all amazed at you. Of you. On you. Whatever...

LHA / WMD

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...
N2EY wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Carl will be very upset you put *this* idea in people minds too! ;^)


Carl has expressed his disdain for the concept of skilled radio operators here.
Look up some of his posts under his old call (WA6VSE) and phrases such as
"electronic paintball wars" "stomp into the dust" "wetware modem" "emulate a
modem" "better modes and modulations"....



I wonder where Carl is lately?

Probably tied up with work and work related travel.

Haven't heard from him since he had the
change of heart regarding the testing.

Everyone's allowed to change their minds, Mike. Even when they
say "never"....

Here's a prediction for you:

Hopefully BPL will not completely trash the HF spectrum - if that
garbage takes over, all bets are off. Assuming it is defeated or at
least contained:

There will be proposals and more proposals. FCC will someday do
another NPRM,
there will be a lot of comments, lots of arguing, and then eventually
FCC will
do another R&O which will consist mostly of what's easiest for FCC to
implement.
At the rate they're going, late 2005 before the rules change. (Yes, I
have't forgotten The Pool)

They'll dump Element 1, simplify the entry level test even more,
reshuffle
some other regs, etc., regardless of what the majority wants, what
arguments
are given pro and con, etc. Free upgrades? Maybe.

We'll see a surge of new hams and a surge of upgrades - for a while.
But not
much will actually change, because they're not addressing the real
problems
like CC&Rs, lack of publicity, lifestyle changes, etc.

You watch and see if I'm right.

Meanwhile some of us will have been having a lot of fun with ham
radio. I know I have, and will continue to do so.

73 de Jim, N2EY

N2EY wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...

N2EY wrote:


In article , Mike Coslo
writes:



Carl will be very upset you put *this* idea in people minds too! ;^)


Carl has expressed his disdain for the concept of skilled radio operators here.
Look up some of his posts under his old call (WA6VSE) and phrases such as
"electronic paintball wars" "stomp into the dust" "wetware modem" "emulate a
modem" "better modes and modulations"....



I wonder where Carl is lately?


Probably tied up with work and work related travel.


Haven't heard from him since he had the
change of heart regarding the testing.


Everyone's allowed to change their minds, Mike. Even when they
say "never"....

Oh yes! But they have to face the consequenses of changing their mind.
But there is some pretty severe damage to credibility when the change
involves basic principles.

Here's a prediction for you:

Hopefully BPL will not completely trash the HF spectrum - if that
garbage takes over, all bets are off. Assuming it is defeated or at
least contained:

There will be proposals and more proposals. FCC will someday do
another NPRM,
there will be a lot of comments, lots of arguing, and then eventually
FCC will do another R&O which will consist mostly of what's easiest for FCC to
implement. At the rate they're going, late 2005 before the rules change. (Yes, I
have't forgotten The Pool)

They'll dump Element 1, simplify the entry level test even more,
reshuffle some other regs, etc., regardless of what the majority wants, what
argumentsare given pro and con, etc. Free upgrades? Maybe.

We'll see a surge of new hams and a surge of upgrades - for a while.
But not much will actually change, because they're not addressing the real
problems like CC&Rs, lack of publicity, lifestyle changes, etc.

You watch and see if I'm right.

I wouldn't bet against that! Sounds within a order of mag with my
prediction.

Meanwhile some of us will have been having a lot of fun with ham
radio. I know I have, and will continue to do so.

Me too. Glad I didn't listen to those that told me that "Morse code is
going to go away any day now." ~Three extra years on HF and counting.......

- Mike KB3EIA

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Dave Heil confused in the
east...and north...and south writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Dave Heil

trying to go for the jugular but getting only a juggler writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article ,
(N2EY)
writes:

The hundreds of thousands of amateur radio ops work DX, engage in
radiosport, check into nets or engage in public service communications
without touching a PLMRS transceiver.

Wow! Really?!?

No hams work in a business that has a Public Land Mobile Radio
Services radio? No hams work on railroads or in heavy trucking or
vehicle road service trucks? No hams in construction of large
buildings or engaged in HVAC or plumbing maintenance of same?
No hams are policemen or firemen or paramedics? No hams are in
the broadcast industry using remote links controlled through PLMRS
comms?

Oh, I see your confusion. You thought I meant *other than on the ham
bands*!

Who knows what lurks in your four neurons, snarly dave?

[da shadow do?]

N2EY: "Besides, here's a simple, plain fact:

No matter what job, educational level, employer, or
government/military service that a radio amateur has, if said radio
amateur opposes Mr. Anderson's views, he/she will be the target of Mr.
Anderson's insults, ridicule, name-calling, factual errors, ethnic
slurs, excessive emoticons and general infantile behavior."

They are all on HF engaging in "radiosport" and net checking to
advance the state of the art of radio and morsemanship?

Did I write "all" or did you just gather it from the ether?

No, nitrous oxide.

In your case, nitrous obnoxide.

I have to take an anaesthetic when I go in here to read all this "expert
radio nowledge stuf." One needs to dull the senses down to the
extra level...

Just more civil debate on the elimination of morse testing, Leonid?

Now all that "radiosport" and "net checking" is fun and recreational
and enjoyed by many but it is hardly any sort of technical
advancement or honing skills useful in case of national need.

How do you know much about it--by having someone you know tell you of
it? By reading about it on the web? By browsing through the pages of
QST at your local library? Were you under the impression that hams are
mandated to participate in technical advancement? Are there no
operational skills needed by the nation?

Why are you asking?

In the expectation of receiving a straight answer. How do you know that
radiosport and public service work in amateur radio are fun? Who told
you?

You are an Extra. You know Everything because you are Qualified
by a federal agency, complete with pretty little certificate (suitable
for framing)!

You're right about one part: I am an Amateur Extra, but I now about what
hams do because I am a part of it, an active participant. I don't get
my knowledge of amateur radio on a second-hand basis.

I know in which part of the spectrum 10 KHz is located.

Did you download that firmware fact from Ten-Tec too?

No, Leonard. Ten-Tec has firmware upgrades available. Would you like
the definition of firmware again?

No radio amateur anywhere has done anything if you haven't known about it.

Awwww...now you are acting all peevish. Tsk, tsk, tsk.

Worship? You aren't even baptised as a licensed ham, Leonard.

Tsk, tsk, tsk, pope dave the furst become a religious sellout?

The Church doesn't issue ham licenses, snarly dave.

That's strange. Weren't you the fellow who brought up a particular
church? You seemed to have snipped that portion.

The FDA grades ham.

....leaving you to handle the degrading.

Several decades of declared interest in amateur radio + over seven years
of windy, condescending posts here + four years of inaction on your
"Extra right out of the box" = Leonard H. Anderson, potential radio
amateur :-)

Didn't you forget my claim that I was going to invent anti-gravity?

Haven't heard of that one. Don't worry too much though. It can't make
you look any more foolish than your "Extra right out of the box" claim.

I'm still working on that one, but something's holding me down...

That'd seem to be a necessity. Hot air has a tendency to rise.

Now sit down in front of your orion, snarly dave. Amaze yourself.

I do that quite frequently, Leonid.

Dave K8MN

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Everyone's allowed to change their minds, Mike. Even when they
say "never"....

Oh yes! But they have to face the consequenses of changing their mind.
But there is some pretty severe damage to credibility when the change
involves basic principles.

Yep. Fact is, I support the "NewNovice" concept, except for it being a
nocodetest license. But I strongly oppose the free upgrades.

Here's a prediction for you:

Hopefully BPL will not completely trash the HF spectrum - if that
garbage takes over, all bets are off. Assuming it is defeated or at
least contained:

There will be proposals and more proposals. FCC will someday do
another NPRM,
there will be a lot of comments, lots of arguing, and then eventually
FCC will do another R&O which will consist mostly of what's easiest for FCC
to
implement. At the rate they're going, late 2005 before the rules change.
(Yes, I have't forgotten The Pool)

They'll dump Element 1, simplify the entry level test even more,
reshuffle some other regs, etc., regardless of what the majority wants,
what
arguments are given pro and con, etc. Free upgrades? Maybe.

We'll see a surge of new hams and a surge of upgrades - for a while.
But not much will actually change, because they're not addressing the real
problems like CC&Rs, lack of publicity, lifestyle changes, etc.

You watch and see if I'm right.

I wouldn't bet against that! Sounds within a order of mag with my
prediction.

They're not addressing the real problems.

Meanwhile some of us will have been having a lot of fun with ham
radio. I know I have, and will continue to do so.

Me too. Glad I didn't listen to those that told me that "Morse code is
going to go away any day now." ~Three extra years on HF and counting.......

ARRL prez W5JBP sez (see "Amateur Radio Newsline" interview) he doesn't
expect FCC to finally act until late 2005. I would not be surprised if that
were the case. 5 years on amateur HF/MF for you by then. 38 for me.

73 de Jim, N2EY

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Meanwhile some of us will have been having a lot of fun with ham
radio. I know I have, and will continue to do so.

Me too. Glad I didn't listen to those that told me that "Morse code is
going to go away any day now." ~Three extra years on HF and counting.......

Keep on truckin, radio pioneer.

Make sure that all other hams keep the Faith and worship regularly
at the Church of St. Hiram, beeping in mass formation, following
the catechisms of morse down to every procode, pledging allegiance
to the league and the morse code.

Above all, force everyone to accept present law as a Divine one,
never to be changed by mortal man, that morse code testing
shall remain forever and ever. That is the Way of True Faith of
the American Amateur. According to the Church of St. Hiram.

Status quo uber alles...unless the BoD changes their mind again.

LHA / WMD

In article , Dave Heil
writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Dave Heil confused in the
east...and north...and south writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Dave Heil

trying to go for the jugular but getting only a juggler writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article ,

(N2EY)
writes:

The hundreds of thousands of amateur radio ops work DX, engage in
radiosport, check into nets or engage in public service communications
without touching a PLMRS transceiver.

Wow! Really?!?

No hams work in a business that has a Public Land Mobile Radio
Services radio? No hams work on railroads or in heavy trucking or
vehicle road service trucks? No hams in construction of large
buildings or engaged in HVAC or plumbing maintenance of same?
No hams are policemen or firemen or paramedics? No hams are in
the broadcast industry using remote links controlled through PLMRS
comms?

Oh, I see your confusion. You thought I meant *other than on the ham
bands*!

Who knows what lurks in your four neurons, snarly dave?

[da shadow do?]

N2EY: "Besides, here's a simple, plain fact:

No matter what job, educational level, employer, or
government/military service that a radio amateur has, if said radio
amateur opposes Mr. Anderson's views, he/she will be the target of Mr.
Anderson's insults, ridicule, name-calling, factual errors, ethnic
slurs, excessive emoticons and general infantile behavior."

They are all on HF engaging in "radiosport" and net checking to
advance the state of the art of radio and morsemanship?

Did I write "all" or did you just gather it from the ether?

No, nitrous oxide.

In your case, nitrous obnoxide.

I have to take an anaesthetic when I go in here to read all this "expert
radio nowledge stuf." One needs to dull the senses down to the
extra level...

Just more civil debate on the elimination of morse testing, Leonid?

Now all that "radiosport" and "net checking" is fun and recreational
and enjoyed by many but it is hardly any sort of technical
advancement or honing skills useful in case of national need.

How do you know much about it--by having someone you know tell you of
it? By reading about it on the web? By browsing through the pages of
QST at your local library? Were you under the impression that hams are
mandated to participate in technical advancement? Are there no
operational skills needed by the nation?

Why are you asking?

In the expectation of receiving a straight answer. How do you know that
radiosport and public service work in amateur radio are fun? Who told
you?

You are an Extra. You know Everything because you are Qualified
by a federal agency, complete with pretty little certificate (suitable
for framing)!

You're right about one part: I am an Amateur Extra, but I now about what
hams do because I am a part of it, an active participant. I don't get
my knowledge of amateur radio on a second-hand basis.

I know in which part of the spectrum 10 KHz is located.

Did you download that firmware fact from Ten-Tec too?

No, Leonard. Ten-Tec has firmware upgrades available. Would you like
the definition of firmware again?

No radio amateur anywhere has done anything if you haven't known about it.

Awwww...now you are acting all peevish. Tsk, tsk, tsk.

Worship? You aren't even baptised as a licensed ham, Leonard.

Tsk, tsk, tsk, pope dave the furst become a religious sellout?

The Church doesn't issue ham licenses, snarly dave.

That's strange. Weren't you the fellow who brought up a particular
church? You seemed to have snipped that portion.

The FDA grades ham.

...leaving you to handle the degrading.

I only degrade the biodegradeable amateurs in here.

You know, the Few, the Overly-Proud, the (white) Men of the
Amateur Copse waving in the breeze of their own unoriginality
bravely holding to the standards and practices of 1930s
amateurisms but bragging they are state of the art by buying
the latest radio toy designed by someone else and built by
someone else and thinking they are potential Nobel laureates
for doing so.

You biodegradeables get your jollies not by operating them radio
toys so much as acting like you are radio gods in here and
snarling degredations at others who don't have your lofty
opinions. Worse yet, you aren't even original in your perjoratives.

Didn't you forget my claim that I was going to invent anti-gravity?

Haven't heard of that one. Don't worry too much though. It can't make
you look any more foolish than your "Extra right out of the box" claim.

Said that once before. You can find it in Google (you were going to
cut and paste everything I ever wrote before in here...that will be
included).

I'm still working on anti-gravity. Something is holding me down, though.


Now sit down in front of your orion, snarly dave. Amaze yourself.

I do that quite frequently, Leonid.

Herr Robust, you need to get some radio technology EDUCATION.

In the KH2D gentle way of beginning such, here's a basic formula to
memorize: E = I * R where E is voltage, I is current, R is resistance.

Got that? No? Too complex for you? It's very, very basic law.

Fella named Ohm came up with that. Lot's of others accept it...does
not have to be explained by Ten-Tec on their website.

That's just the beginning. We can work on components of radios
later, all the amazing things that happen behind the front panel using
L and C and things called "transistors" and "integrated circuits!"

Isn't that something, though! "Magic" happens when you move knobs
and switches in the correct way. Electrons can do your bidding and
create fields and waves in free space!

Did you know that others have made actual electronic surrogates for
adding machines and calculators? Yes! A long time ago, even before
WW2 in Ohio, courtesy of John Atanasoff (forgive me if I spelled it
wrong, John, you are not a Hun). I even have one on my watch! That
watch has no moving parts and tells time very accurately.

Well, here's the most amazing magic of all: Others have found ways
to combine those electronic calculators and "magical" radios. Those
are called "SDR" or Software Defined Radios!" Memorize the word
"software" in that acronym. Learn the difference soft versus firm.

Yes, it's true! In the office here is a "radio clock," no moving parts,
battery powered, that tunes itself in to WWVB after midnight, corrects
itself if necessary according to NIST's prime time standard, gives the
date, day, compensates for leap years, even the "leap second" and
(additionally) tells the office temperature! Sunnavagun. All that and
the display doesn't have to glow!

That one is big, easy to read from anywhere in the room, have had it
for a year. There's a smaller one in the other room, had that for three
years, does everything except for the room temperature. Each one
cost less than $30. No moving parts. No controls need be touched
to be accurate to within one second every day. No license needed,
no morse code required to have one or use one!

A little microcontroller inside each radio clock is the heart; a quartz
crystal is the heartbeat and NIST's atomic standard of time and
Boulder Colorado transmitter is the pacemaker. You know how to
program a microcontroller, snarly dave? I do. We can work on your
learning basic computerstuff later...first you have to master radio
technology (a snap since you've passed your 20 WPM morse test).

Later, much much later, you can approach basic programming and
its application to SDRs of the future. Note: There's a little micro-
controller at the heart of nearly every over-the-counter ham radio
today. Has "magic" in it...but later we will discover that it isn't
any legerdemain, just some digital logic arranged in a logical way
so that imagination and innovation can be used to make that micro-
controller do your bidding!

Just think. The future has promise for you. Not only can you expand
your efforts at trying to make people do your bidding, but you can
make electronics do your bidding also! Another heaven for radio
gods and control freaks!

Now, you just set yourself down in front of your orion (named for the
mythical but mighty hunter) and imagine what you can do in the
future. Once you learn some basics. Lots of basics. Remember
that electrons don't care squat about all your pretty certificates or
years as an amateur anything, cannot be influenced by human
emotions or egos, will only obey THEIR laws, not those of the ARRL.
Excuse me, FCC. Success is yours ahead. Just not at the rate
you are going.

[the offer on the bier is still there...can you take that lying down?]

LHA / WMD

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Dave Heil
writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Dave Heil confused in the
east...and north...and south writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Dave Heil

trying to go for the jugular but getting only a juggler writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article ,

(N2EY)
writes:

The FDA grades ham.

...leaving you to handle the degrading.

I only degrade the biodegradeable amateurs in here.

We're each biodegradable, Leonard.

You know, the Few, the Overly-Proud, the (white) Men of the
Amateur Copse waving in the breeze of their own unoriginality
bravely holding to the standards and practices of 1930s
amateurisms but bragging they are state of the art by buying
the latest radio toy designed by someone else and built by
someone else and thinking they are potential Nobel laureates
for doing so.

A few questions (DEMANDS) of you, Leona:

What constitutes "Overly-Proud" and why is the term capitalized?

Do you consider yourself to be of a racial group other than white?

Do you know of anyone who has indicated that hethinks of himself as a
Nobel laureate because he bought a radio transceiver which is unequalled
in amateur radio equipment?

You biodegradeables get your jollies not by operating them radio
toys so much as acting like you are radio gods in here and
snarling degredations at others who don't have your lofty
opinions. Worse yet, you aren't even original in your perjoratives.

You're biodegradable, Len. Your definition of "radio god" seems to be
"one who is not in agreement with the views of Leonard H. Anderson".
How do you determine from reading lines of typed characters, when
someone is snarling? Are you snarling when you post here? Do you hold
"lofty" opinions? How do you determine when the opinions of others are
"lofty"?

Didn't you forget my claim that I was going to invent anti-gravity?

Haven't heard of that one. Don't worry too much though. It can't make
you look any more foolish than your "Extra right out of the box" claim.

Said that once before. You can find it in Google (you were going to
cut and paste everything I ever wrote before in here...that will be
included).

I never wrote that I intended bringing back all of your material. Most
of it wasn't that good the first time.

I'm still working on anti-gravity. Something is holding me down, though.

So you said earlier. Your purloined lines weren't very funny the first
time.

Now sit down in front of your orion, snarly dave. Amaze yourself.

I do that quite frequently, Leonid.

Herr Robust, you need to get some radio technology EDUCATION.

....and YOU'RE JUST THE GUY to give it to me, I'll bet.

(much of your crap snipped because it was, well, crap)

Success is yours ahead. Just not at the rate
you are going.

Amateur radio success has been mine for over 40 years now. Would you
like to ruminate on your liklihood of joining the fun on the ham bands,
given the rate you are going?

Dave K8MN

In article , Dave Heil robust oberst auf das
sandbox writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Dave Heil

writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Dave Heil confused in the
east...and north...and south writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Dave Heil

trying to go for the jugular but getting only a juggler writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article ,

(N2EY)
writes:

The FDA grades ham.

...leaving you to handle the degrading.

I only degrade the biodegradeable amateurs in here.

We're each biodegradable, Leonard.

No, I don't think so. You got the formaldehyde before assuming
room temperature.

Dr. Frankenstein would be proud...he created a Ham Monster!

"...it's Alive! It's Alive!...it beeped morse code!"

[from an unpublished Mary Shelley manuscript] :-)


(much of your crap snipped because it was, well, crap)

Right, straight talk from a Newington Charm School dropout.

See 97.1 (e), something about "good will" and "uniqueness."

What next? Shouts of "Drop and give me twenty, maggot?"

The gunnery nurse have a cue-so with you or something?


Amateur radio success has been mine for over 40 years now.

Wonderful.

Any time soon you will be ready to be a true professional. With
another forty years of radio theory study, that is...

Keep up the good work.

Temper fry!

LHA / WMD