In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:

(N2EY) wrote in message
...
In article ,

(Brian Kelly) writes:

The big sell points are "no installatio! Just plug it in!" and the extreme
portability. "Every power socket in your house is now a broadband internet
connection" - "easier than dialup!" etc.

Of course the same is true of the various 802.11 alphabet soup systems
coming out too - and those are faster!

I'm not up to speed on the methods which will be used to transport the
802.11 type signals into buildings

It's called "radio". aka "wireless". The modems/routers/hubs have these funny
things called "antennas" on them and so do the boxes out on the utility pole.

but I assume it'll be carried over
existing cable TV wiring to a Part 15 tranciever/modem somewhere in
the building. Or something along those lines.

No wires at all. You been to Microcenter lately?

Makes a helluva lot
more sense economically and in all other respects vs. BPL. In
particular they won't trash the HF spectrum like BPL does.

It's also faster, more robust, and even more portable. Put a PCIMCIA cardmodem
in your lapper and surf anywhere.

I undertand
that they would use a band of frequencies which would "endanger" our
2.4 Mhz allocations. But like I posted somewhere else earlier, I'll
trade 2.4 Mhz for 14 Mhz any day.

Some of them do and that's not good. Others are in the 5 GHz region. What is
most important is that we can have a protected slice of GHz *and* those
technologies can exist.

The current show-stopper for the 802.11 crowd seems to be a lack of
standards and coordination. Which is very typical of fledgling
technologies, everybody wants their pet system to become the alpha
technology. And eventually evolutionary forces will do what they've
always done and some 802.11 type system or another will be ready to
market on a global scale.

BINGO! I knew you'd get it. Just like VHS smacked Beta's rear years ago.

hen that finally happens I expect that what
little bits and pieces of BPL might actually still be around will be
buried and forgotten. Quicky.

Hopefully they'll not get off the ground. But it still has to be fought because
once they get established they can set a precedent for other bad technologies.

As as far as serving pore stranded Farmer Jones' needs if he's really
hot for broadband access all he has to do is sign up for dish service.
Which has been out there for *years*.

The reason Farmer Jones doesn't have DSL or a cable modem is the same reason he
won't have BPL: not enough customers per mile.

None of them are engineers - they're "regulators".

They're bush-league (pun intended)politicians as usual and don't have
to be engineers, their job is listen to the FCC technical staff,
that's why the FCC has technical experts on the payroll.

But they don't have to do what the techies say.

As if they
care about any "technical details" like obliterating HF radio with
BPL, 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. sed "Just DO it" and that's that.

Like code waivers from Papa Bush.

I've
been wondering if Commerce is being leaned on about watering down the
upcoming NTIA BPL study. I'll just bet it is.

Who knows?

And they're tasked by your
buddy Shrub

You jest!

Not at all. Just good ol
thousand-points-of-light-republican-coat-no-millionaire-left-behind-trickl
e-down business as usual.....

to come up with whizbang technocures like hydrogen fuel and BPL.
Right!

And Ralph Nader is going to run again. GEts worse every day.

Comic relief. Beats Ross Perot.

Ralph Nader is Shrub's best friend. Without him, Algore would be in the White
House.

73 de Jim, N2EY

On 22 Feb 2004 01:02:36 GMT, N2EY wrote:

It's called "radio". aka "wireless". The modems/routers/hubs have
these funny things called "antennas" on them and so do the boxes out
on the utility pole.

I had that 10 years ago - it was called Ricochet/Microtel, ran at
dial-up speed using the 900 MHz non-licensed spectrum/technology,
and worked just great. 24/7 connection with no extra phone line,
DSL and Cable Modem service not quite on the market yet, and
standards still being debated by several technical groups that I was
a member of.

Just about five years ago they went broke and stopped offering the
service. I still have the device in the original carton (had to
look at it to remember the name). I had heard that they tried to
revive it at higher speed in the 2.4 GHz Part 15 band, but they
aren't offering that service in this area and probably never will,
what with everyone using 802.11b LAN access.

I undertand
that they would use a band of frequencies which would "endanger" our
2.4 Mhz allocations. But like I posted somewhere else earlier, I'll
trade 2.4 Mhz for 14 Mhz any day.

The 802.11b "Wi-Fi" LAN technology operates at 2.4 GHz, not MHz.

The nice part about that is that Wi-Fi Channel 1 (IIRC) falls
totally within the portion of the band that is shared between
Amateur and Non-Licensed Part 15 users, and (theoretically, at
least) a licensed ham can hang a super-high-gain antenna and a power
amp on a commnercial Wi-Fi unit (CompUSA "special") operating on
that channel, modifications that non-licensed Part 15 users cannot
do.

Just think what 1500 W TPO would do to the neighborhood Wi-Fi users.

DX records. "King of the Hill".

Some of them do and that's not good. Others are in the 5 GHz region.

802.11g - "Wide-Area" LAN or WAN. The Bay Area Wireless
Communications Alliance members were discussing this about 5
years ago when I was active with that group. A higher-powered
version requiring a point-to-multipoint microwave system license
was starting to be pitched to a different crowd from the 802.11b
(2.4 GHz) users.

What is most important is that we can have a protected slice of GHz *and*
those technologies can exist.

The current show-stopper for the 802.11 crowd seems to be a lack of
standards and coordination. Which is very typical of fledgling
technologies,

These ARE standards. Just different applications. Carl Stevenson
is a national and international expert on them.

And eventually evolutionary forces will do what they've
always done and some 802.11 type system or another will be ready to
market on a global scale.

Both the 802.11b (short-range) and 802.11g (long-range) systems have
been marketed on a global scale for several years. Don't confuse
them with the differing standards for cellphoes and color TV - USA
vs the rest of the world.

BINGO! I knew you'd get it. Just like VHS smacked Beta's rear years ago.

What makes you think that Beta died when VHS became the consumer
standard? The TV and broadcast industry standardized on Beta for
field recording, but alas Sony is no longer supporting it, having
had it replaced by digital technology. Look for the same thing to
happen with VHS - "everyone" is going to DVDs.

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon

"Phil Kane" wrote in message . net...
On 22 Feb 2004 01:02:36 GMT, N2EY wrote:

I undertand
that they would use a band of frequencies which would "endanger" our
2.4 Mhz allocations. But like I posted somewhere else earlier, I'll
trade 2.4 Mhz for 14 Mhz any day.

The 802.11b "Wi-Fi" LAN technology operates at 2.4 GHz, not MHz.

QSL.

The nice part about that is that Wi-Fi Channel 1 (IIRC) falls
totally within the portion of the band that is shared between
Amateur and Non-Licensed Part 15 users, and (theoretically, at
least) a licensed ham can hang a super-high-gain antenna and a power
amp on a commnercial Wi-Fi unit (CompUSA "special") operating on
that channel, modifications that non-licensed Part 15 users cannot
do.

Just think what 1500 W TPO would do to the neighborhood Wi-Fi users.

DX records. "King of the Hill".

****er-offer to end all.

But would it be any worse than the days when the first consumer TV
receivers hit the shelves and hams "invented" TVI? How long ago?? It's
all circles.

Some of them do and that's not good. Others are in the 5 GHz region.

802.11g - "Wide-Area" LAN or WAN. The Bay Area Wireless
Communications Alliance members were discussing this about 5
years ago when I was active with that group. A higher-powered
version requiring a point-to-multipoint microwave system license
was starting to be pitched to a different crowd from the 802.11b
(2.4 GHz) users.

What is most important is that we can have a protected slice of GHz *and*
those technologies can exist.

The current show-stopper for the 802.11 crowd seems to be a lack of
standards and coordination. Which is very typical of fledgling
technologies,

These ARE standards. Just different applications.

Depends on what/how/who defines a "standard". Touch-tone pads are
standard. The rest are questionable on that scale, and in the case of
the instant topic very questionable. I spend a good bit of time
cruising the financial news, London Financial Times, Reuters, Business
Week, anywhere where I don't have to cough up coin to get into like
the WSJ. The technologies which will matter down the road are those
Wall Street buys into. The rest will be orphaned. Good collection of
articles by the investments pundits on the likes of Wi-Fi and the
related standards problems they see in this field.

http://www.businessweek.com/technolo.../tc_04wifi.htm

Speaking of orphans . . I have yet to run into a single peep about BPL
anywhere in the tech investments rags so far. I think this silently
speaks volumes about the future of BPL.

Carl Stevenson
is a national and international expert on them.

Yup, would have been nice to have him in this thread.

And eventually evolutionary forces will do what they've
always done and some 802.11 type system or another will be ready to
market on a global scale.

Both the 802.11b (short-range) and 802.11g (long-range) systems have
been marketed on a global scale for several years. Don't confuse
them with the differing standards for cellphoes and color TV - USA
vs the rest of the world.

You're right.

BINGO! I knew you'd get it. Just like VHS smacked Beta's rear years ago.

What makes you think that Beta died when VHS became the consumer
standard? The TV and broadcast industry standardized on Beta for
field recording, but alas Sony is no longer supporting it, having
had it replaced by digital technology. Look for the same thing to
happen with VHS - "everyone" is going to DVDs.

They're selling computers which don't have floppy drives. I tried to
remember when I last used a floppy. Years ago.

w3rv

PAMNO (N2EY) wrote in message ...
In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:

I'm not up to speed on the methods which will be used to transport the
802.11 type signals into buildings

It's called "radio". aka "wireless". The modems/routers/hubs have these funny
things called "antennas" on them and so do the boxes out on the utility pole.
but I assume it'll be carried over
existing cable TV wiring to a Part 15 tranciever/modem somewhere in
the building. Or something along those lines.

No wires at all. You been to Microcenter lately?

Spare me the lectures willya??! I'm about ten feet from one, they're
everywhere and I don't need a tour of Microcenter to "find out what
they are". And yes it does need a wire, in this case a cable TV
connection to the modems/routers/hub. Is this the "Wi-Fi 802 dot
something" which is being hyped? I don't think so.

Makes a helluva lot
more sense economically and in all other respects vs. BPL. In
particular they won't trash the HF spectrum like BPL does.

It's also faster, more robust, and even more portable. Put a PCIMCIA cardmodem
in your lapper and surf anywhere.

Wrong. Surf around as long as you're in Starbucks, in an airport
terminal, in a Hilton and maybe you'll find a connection. Now drive a
few miles to the Wharton Tract or even to Ridley Creek State Park and
try to get a connect yer lapper-with-an-antenna.

I undertand
that they would use a band of frequencies which would "endanger" our
2.4 Mhz allocations. But like I posted somewhere else earlier, I'll
trade 2.4 Mhz for 14 Mhz any day.

Some of them do and that's not good. Others are in the 5 GHz region. What is
most important is that we can have a protected slice of GHz *and* those
technologies can exist.

And if "they" can't find a "solution" then kiss the 2.4 Ghz (got it
right that time) ham band 'bye-'bye. Get comfortable with the concept

And Ralph Nader is going to run again. GEts worse every day.

Comic relief. Beats Ross Perot.

Ralph Nader is Shrub's best friend. Without him, Algore would be in the White
House.

At this point I'm not in the least bit convinced that Gore would have
been one bit worse that the Shrub. Democrats are the free-spenders and
the Rebublicans are the fiscally conservative right? Have you checked
the size of the national debt recently?

73 de Jim, N2EY

w3rv

In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:

(N2EY) wrote in message
...
In article ,

(Brian Kelly) writes:

I'm not up to speed on the methods which will be used to transport the
802.11 type signals into buildings

It's called "radio". aka "wireless". The modems/routers/hubs have these
funny
things called "antennas" on them and so do the boxes out on the utility
pole.
but I assume it'll be carried over
existing cable TV wiring to a Part 15 tranciever/modem somewhere in
the building. Or something along those lines.

No wires at all. You been to Microcenter lately?

Spare me the lectures willya??!

When you spare me, sure!

I'm about ten feet from one, they're
everywhere and I don't need a tour of Microcenter to "find out what
they are". And yes it does need a wire, in this case a cable TV
connection to the modems/routers/hub. Is this the "Wi-Fi 802 dot
something" which is being hyped? I don't think so.

There are other systems in use and on the way that require no wiring in your
house.

Makes a helluva lot
more sense economically and in all other respects vs. BPL. In
particular they won't trash the HF spectrum like BPL does.

It's also faster, more robust, and even more portable. Put a PCIMCIA
cardmodem in your lapper and surf anywhere.

Wrong. Surf around as long as you're in Starbucks, in an airport
terminal, in a Hilton and maybe you'll find a connection. Now drive a
few miles to the Wharton Tract or even to Ridley Creek State Park and
try to get a connect yer lapper-with-an-antenna.

Make that "anywhere in your house or yard".

Point is that the last-mile problem isn't a real problem at all. Run the fiber
down the street on the poles, put a little box every so many poles, use a
little encoding, no problem.

I undertand
that they would use a band of frequencies which would "endanger" our
2.4 Mhz allocations. But like I posted somewhere else earlier, I'll
trade 2.4 Mhz for 14 Mhz any day.

Some of them do and that's not good. Others are in the 5 GHz region. What
is
most important is that we can have a protected slice of GHz *and* those
technologies can exist.

And if "they" can't find a "solution" then kiss the 2.4 Ghz (got it
right that time) ham band 'bye-'bye. Get comfortable with the concept

More bandwidth than all of HF.

btw, I came across some info on the Manassas thing. $20 month for BPL - for the
first three months! Then it jumps to $50/month. On a good day it might get up
to half of DSL speed. Maybe.

And Ralph Nader is going to run again. GEts worse every day.

Comic relief. Beats Ross Perot.

Ralph Nader is Shrub's best friend. Without him, Algore would be in the
White House.

At this point I'm not in the least bit convinced that Gore would have
been one bit worse that the Shrub.

Izzat the sun coming up over Sugartown Road?

Democrats are the free-spenders and
the Rebublicans are the fiscally conservative right?

That's what the thousand-points-of-light-family-values-read-my-lips-cloth-coat
Republicans keep telling us....

Have you checked the size of the national debt recently?

Yep. But that's not the big problem - the real 800 pound gorilla is how fast
the deficit is making it grow. A few years back we had a surplus....

And now we're supposed to go back to the Moon, and send people to Mars. Yet the
odds on a Shuttle failure are worse than 100 to 1...

Tell ya what, let's fund Shrub's moon-mars-madness the same way things like
education, mass transit and health care get funded. We could have walkathons
and bake sales. Corporate sponsorship in return for advertising space, just
like they do in NASCAR and at Indy. Let groups and individuals send in money to
buy parts and supplies - a gallon of rocket fuel, coupla resistors for the
computer, etc.

NASA can have anything in the Southgate Radio stockroom for a very nominal
price.

73 de Jim, N2EY

PAMNO (N2EY) wrote in message ...
In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:

Point is that the last-mile problem isn't a real problem at all. Run the fiber
down the street on the poles, put a little box every so many poles, use a
little encoding, no problem.

Certainly. But running fiber optics lines is a very expensive
proposition, much more expensive per unit length than any of the other
utility lines. If/when real wideband access comes true in this country
it's most likely gonna at least get started via the cable. That
probability is mixed into Comcast's move to bring the Mouse to Philly.

And if "they" can't find a "solution" then kiss the 2.4 Ghz (got it
right that time) ham band 'bye-'bye. Get comfortable with the concept

More bandwidth than all of HF.

Hare and I touched on that when he was here, it's a classic case of
use it or lose it and it's not being used. I asked him how much ham
activity he knew about on 2.4 Ghz and he answered "What activity?".

btw, I came across some info on the Manassas thing. $20 month for BPL - for the
first three months! Then it jumps to $50/month. On a good day it might get up
to half of DSL speed. Maybe.

Good. I hope they lose their skivvies on that deal.

In this country standard DSL runs 0.5-1.0 Mb/s and can be found for
$30/month. Cable here runs at around 3Mb/s for $45/month. The JAs have
a flavor of DSL which runs at 26 Mb/sec in heavily-populated areas for
$50/month with the HLs close behind. Manassas BPL for $50/month for
only half of 0.5-1.0 Mb/s you say? They gotta be kidding . . ! One
more dot bomb in the making . .


At this point I'm not in the least bit convinced that Gore would have
been one bit worse that the Shrub.

Izzat the sun coming up over Sugartown Road?

Huh? How did Sugartown Rd. get into it??

Have you checked the size of the national debt recently?

Yep. But that's not the big problem - the real 800 pound gorilla is how fast
the deficit is making it grow. A few years back we had a surplus....

Yeah, it's the rate which is really scary.

And now we're supposed to go back to the Moon, and send people to Mars. Yet the
odds on a Shuttle failure are worse than 100 to 1...

I don't see shuttle safety being part of the politics of the upcoming
campaign. As has been the case in all major explorations since Leif
Ericsson's days and millenia before the folk who ride the things know
they didn't buy a seat in a 737 and some are not gonna come back.

Tell ya what, let's fund Shrub's moon-mars-madness the same way things like
education, mass transit and health care get funded.

How 'bout we just bag the whole stupid Mars camping trip thing and
first build a new version of the Shuttle then put Wideband on the
front burner as a matter of national policy? Which is what the JAs and
HLs did and explains why this country is years behind them in this
field.

We could have walkathons
and bake sales. Corporate sponsorship in return for advertising space, just
like they do in NASCAR and at Indy. Let groups and individuals send in money to
buy parts and supplies - a gallon of rocket fuel, coupla resistors for the
computer, etc.

NASA can have anything in the Southgate Radio stockroom for a very nominal
price.

Let's not get carried away here Miccolis . .

73 de Jim, N2EY

w3rv

In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:

(N2EY) wrote in message
...
In article ,

(Brian Kelly) writes:

Point is that the last-mile problem isn't a real problem at all. Run the
fiber down the street on the poles, put a little box every so many poles,
use a
little encoding, no problem.

Certainly. But running fiber optics lines is a very expensive
proposition, much more expensive per unit length than any of the other
utility lines.

It's already all over the place out here in the Principality of Radnor. And TE,
and West Chester, etc.

The really big cost is getting from the pole into people's houses. That's the
really big selling point of BPL: no installation, every outlet in your house is
a broadband connection. As if.

If/when real wideband access comes true in this country
it's most likely gonna at least get started via the cable. That
probability is mixed into Comcast's move to bring the Mouse to Philly.

A lot of "cable" is actually fiber. But it makes no real difference; the big
probelm is getting into every overpriced little box made out of ticky tacky.
The cable and telco folks took their pain upfront.

And if "they" can't find a "solution" then kiss the 2.4 Ghz (got it
right that time) ham band 'bye-'bye. Get comfortable with the concept

More bandwidth than all of HF.

Hare and I touched on that when he was here, it's a classic case of
use it or lose it and it's not being used. I asked him how much ham
activity he knew about on 2.4 Ghz and he answered "What activity?".

I wuz there. And what activity does exist uses highly directional antennas....

btw, I came across some info on the Manassas thing. $20 month for BPL - for
the
first three months! Then it jumps to $50/month. On a good day it might get
up to half of DSL speed. Maybe.

Good. I hope they lose their skivvies on that deal.

They'll ask Uncle Sam to bail them out. "No millionaire left behind".

Didja see where RCN went Chapter 11? The cofounder of Microsoft put 1.65
billion into that outfit and now his piece is worth $2 million. That's like
putting $165,000 of yer IRA/401K in something and having it go down to $200.

In this country standard DSL runs 0.5-1.0 Mb/s and can be found for
$30/month.

Even less if bundled with other services. When the contract on the Southgate
cellphone runs out in June, I'm shopping bigtime.

Cable here runs at around 3Mb/s for $45/month. The JAs have
a flavor of DSL which runs at 26 Mb/sec in heavily-populated areas for
$50/month with the HLs close behind. Manassas BPL for $50/month for
only half of 0.5-1.0 Mb/s you say?

Double check with Ed but I recall half MB as the best they'd ever gotten - and
that was for a single customer on the system. More folks = sharing.

They gotta be kidding . . ! One more dot bomb in the making . .

I sure hope so. Boom dot bust. But it ain't over till it's over.

At this point I'm not in the least bit convinced that Gore would have
been one bit worse that the Shrub.

Izzat the sun coming up over Sugartown Road?

Huh? How did Sugartown Rd. get into it??

It's west of here - as in "sun come up in the west on that day..."

Have you checked the size of the national debt recently?

Yep. But that's not the big problem - the real 800 pound gorilla is how
fast the deficit is making it grow. A few years back we had a surplus....

Yeah, it's the rate which is really scary.

Not just a big hole but digging it deeper as fast as they can.

And now we're supposed to go back to the Moon, and send people to Mars.
Yet the odds on a Shuttle failure are worse than 100 to 1...

I don't see shuttle safety being part of the politics of the upcoming
campaign. As has been the case in all major explorations since Leif
Ericsson's days and millenia before the folk who ride the things know
they didn't buy a seat in a 737 and some are not gonna come back.

That's not how it was sold, though. Ask the McAuliffes if they were told that
there was a 1 in 75 chance of augering in.

Main point is that if it's that risky just ot get to orbit, the Moon is even
more risky and Mars missions lasting years are for the Divine Wind types.

Tell ya what, let's fund Shrub's moon-mars-madness the same way things like
education, mass transit and health care get funded.

How 'bout we just bag the whole stupid Mars camping trip thing and
first build a new version of the Shuttle then put Wideband on the
front burner as a matter of national policy?

That makes way too much sense.

In fact the really sensible thing would be a cheap oneshot big booster for
unmanned payloads and a highly reliable but much smaller human transport
system. Send the big stuff on ahead and the astronauts meet it up there.

Which is what the JAs and
HLs did and explains why this country is years behind them in this
field.

'zactly.

We could have walkathons
and bake sales. Corporate sponsorship in return for advertising space, just
like they do in NASCAR and at Indy. Let groups and individuals send in
money to
buy parts and supplies - a gallon of rocket fuel, coupla resistors for the
computer, etc.

NASA can have anything in the Southgate Radio stockroom for a very nominal
price.

Let's not get carried away here Miccolis . .

Hey - didja see where they're planning a space walk on the ISS where all the
crew will be outside at the same time, with nobody in the station? Didn't they
ever go to the movies back in 1968?

73 de Jim, N2EY

....oh, my God, it's full of stars!...

w3rv

PAMNO (N2EY) wrote in message ...
In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:


Certainly. But running fiber optics lines is a very expensive
proposition, much more expensive per unit length than any of the other
utility lines.

It's already all over the place out here in the Principality of Radnor. And TE,
and West Chester, etc.

There's an optics cable running along the street here which isn't more
than 75 feet from me as I peck at the keyboard. And a half block north
there's a moose-sized optics cable running along MacDade Blvd. I have
no idea where they come from or where they go or what they actually do
but there isn't a drop to a residence or a business in sight anywhere.
I've seen Ma Bell "mobile labs" futzing with the things so I guess
it's for running phone comms between switching centers. Or something.
In any event these cables don't look like they're ready to duke it out
with BPL.

The really big cost is getting from the pole into people's houses. That's the
really big selling point of BPL: no installation, every outlet in your house is
a broadband connection. As if.

A lot of "cable" is actually fiber. But it makes no real difference; the big
probelm is getting into every overpriced little box made out of ticky tacky.
The cable and telco folks took their pain upfront.

And they can avoid more pain by *not* installing residential drops.
Install 802 dot somthing boxes on the poles every hundred yards or so.
Would work and would kick BPLs butt. The huge advantage wireless
devices bring to this game is that they do *not* need a connection to
the house wiring. Freely floating lappers, remotes, etc.

Hare and I touched on that when he was here, it's a classic case of
use it or lose it and it's not being used. I asked him how much ham
activity he knew about on 2.4 Ghz and he answered "What activity?".

I wuz there. And what activity does exist uses highly directional antennas....

Seems like we all forgot that most of it is satellite ops which do not
always use directional antennas. That could be a problem but a couple
MHZ wide AMSAT setaside would probably work.

btw, I came across some info on the Manassas thing. $20 month for BPL - for
the
first three months! Then it jumps to $50/month. On a good day it might get
up to half of DSL speed. Maybe.

Good. I hope they lose their skivvies on that deal.

They'll ask Uncle Sam to bail them out. "No millionaire left behind".

That would require Congessional action and it would never in this
world happen.

Didja see where RCN went Chapter 11?

I looked at RCN when it first popped up. Talk about no bang for the
buck, the Comcast and Ma Bell guys musta been laughing their buns off
at the RCN prices.

The cofounder of Microsoft put 1.65
billion into that outfit and now his piece is worth $2 million. That's like
putting $165,000 of yer IRA/401K in something and having it go down to $200.

Yeah and after RCN drubbed him Mr. Allen came out with 20 point
somthing billion left in his piggy bank. Pore thing. He and his buddy
Bill are tossing coin at all sortsa wild investment adventures. Their
baby airliner is a good example. They don't care, it's only money.

Cable here runs at around 3Mb/s for $45/month. The JAs have
a flavor of DSL which runs at 26 Mb/sec in heavily-populated areas for
$50/month with the HLs close behind. Manassas BPL for $50/month for
only half of 0.5-1.0 Mb/s you say?

Double check with Ed but I recall half MB as the best they'd ever gotten - and
that was for a single customer on the system. More folks = sharing.

. . . . more is better, bring it on . . .

They gotta be kidding . . ! One more dot bomb in the making . .

I sure hope so. Boom dot bust. But it ain't over till it's over.

It won't hurt very long . .

Yep. But that's not the big problem - the real 800 pound gorilla is how
fast the deficit is making it grow. A few years back we had a surplus....

Yeah, it's the rate which is really scary.

Not just a big hole but digging it deeper as fast as they can.

Check OMB's rant on the subject which was published yesterday.

I don't see shuttle safety being part of the politics of the upcoming
campaign. As has been the case in all major explorations since Leif
Ericsson's days and millenia before the folk who ride the things know
they didn't buy a seat in a 737 and some are not gonna come back.

That's not how it was sold, though. Ask the McAuliffes if they were told that
there was a 1 in 75 chance of augering in.

Sure they knew, just like the relatives of military aircrews know the
level of risk involved. Whether they accept it and internalize it or
not is another story.

How 'bout we just bag the whole stupid Mars camping trip thing and
first build a new version of the Shuttle then put Wideband on the
front burner as a matter of national policy?

That makes way too much sense.

In fact the really sensible thing would be a cheap oneshot big booster for
unmanned payloads and a highly reliable but much smaller human transport
system. Send the big stuff on ahead and the astronauts meet it up there.

The UAs been doing that for thirty years.

Hey - didja see where they're planning a space walk on the ISS where all the
crew will be outside at the same time, with nobody in the station? Didn't they
ever go to the movies back in 1968?

Was not the first time by any means and yup, it rained so they had to
duck back inside.

73 de Jim, N2EY

w3rv

In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:

(N2EY) wrote in message
...
In article ,

(Brian Kelly) writes:

Certainly. But running fiber optics lines is a very expensive
proposition, much more expensive per unit length than any of the other
utility lines.

It's already all over the place out here in the Principality of Radnor. And
TE, and West Chester, etc.

There's an optics cable running along the street here which isn't more
than 75 feet from me as I peck at the keyboard. And a half block north
there's a moose-sized optics cable running along MacDade Blvd. I have
no idea where they come from or where they go or what they actually do
but there isn't a drop to a residence or a business in sight anywhere.

I didn't mean direct fiber to the customer.

I've seen Ma Bell "mobile labs" futzing with the things so I guess
it's for running phone comms between switching centers. Or something.
In any event these cables don't look like they're ready to duke it out
with BPL.

The point is that BPL is not meant for long distances (more than a few miles)
but instead as a way to get around the high cost of the "last mile". Which is
mostly the cost of getting from the pole to the desktop or lapper.

The really big cost is getting from the pole into people's houses. That's
the really big selling point of BPL: no installation, every outlet in your
house is a broadband connection. As if.

A lot of "cable" is actually fiber. But it makes no real difference; the
big probelm is getting into every overpriced little box made out of ticky
tacky. The cable and telco folks took their pain upfront.

And they can avoid more pain by *not* installing residential drops.

By "took their pain" I meant they built an infrastructure meant for
comms (the big cable on the pole) rather than trying to force something
meant for other uses to do the job.

Install 802 dot somthing boxes on the poles every hundred yards or so.

That's exactly what I've been talking about. Fiber/cable feeds the
802.11/alphabet soup box, customers have a similar box and a password.

Would work and would kick BPLs butt. The huge advantage wireless
devices bring to this game is that they do *not* need a connection to
the house wiring. Freely floating lappers, remotes, etc.

And it's already been done. The 802 stuff makes it faster and cheaper.

Not only would it kick BPL butt, it could conceivably be made part of a
wireless
network/firewall arrangement in customer's residences and businesses. Little
stubbys everywhere. Antennas, that is..

Hare and I touched on that when he was here, it's a classic case of
use it or lose it and it's not being used. I asked him how much ham
activity he knew about on 2.4 Ghz and he answered "What activity?".

I wuz there. And what activity does exist uses highly directional
antennas....

Seems like we all forgot that most of it is satellite ops which do not
always use directional antennas. That could be a problem but a couple
MHZ wide AMSAT setaside would probably work.

Bingo.

btw, I came across some info on the Manassas thing. $20 month for BPL -
for the
first three months! Then it jumps to $50/month. On a good day it might
get up to half of DSL speed. Maybe.

Good. I hope they lose their skivvies on that deal.

Can you say "Iridium"? I knew that you could....

They'll ask Uncle Sam to bail them out. "No millionaire left behind".

That would require Congessional action and it would never in this
world happen.

Uh huh. Never say never.

Didja read where Shrub wants a *constitutional amendment* defining marriage as
being only between a man and woman? It would also require the intended couple
to register at Halliburton....

Didja see where RCN went Chapter 11?

I looked at RCN when it first popped up. Talk about no bang for the
buck, the Comcast and Ma Bell guys musta been laughing their buns off
at the RCN prices.

watta mess

The cofounder of Microsoft put 1.65
billion into that outfit and now his piece is worth $2 million. That's like
putting $165,000 of yer IRA/401K in something and having it go down to
$200.

Yeah and after RCN drubbed him Mr. Allen came out with 20 point
somthing billion left in his piggy bank. Pore thing. He and his buddy
Bill are tossing coin at all sortsa wild investment adventures. Their
baby airliner is a good example. They don't care, it's only money.

Yup - and where did that money go? ;-)

Cable here runs at around 3Mb/s for $45/month. The JAs have
a flavor of DSL which runs at 26 Mb/sec in heavily-populated areas for
$50/month with the HLs close behind. Manassas BPL for $50/month for
only half of 0.5-1.0 Mb/s you say?

Double check with Ed but I recall half MB as the best they'd ever gotten -
and
that was for a single customer on the system. More folks = sharing.

. . . . more is better, bring it on . . .

there's an idea - ewverybody signs up and the system works worse than
dialup....

They gotta be kidding . . ! One more dot bomb in the making . .

I sure hope so. Boom dot bust. But it ain't over till it's over.

It won't hurt very long . .

The fat lady ain't sung yet.

Yep. But that's not the big problem - the real 800 pound gorilla is how
fast the deficit is making it grow. A few years back we had a
surplus....

Yeah, it's the rate which is really scary.

Not just a big hole but digging it deeper as fast as they can.

Check OMB's rant on the subject which was published yesterday.

You got a link?

I don't see shuttle safety being part of the politics of the upcoming
campaign. As has been the case in all major explorations since Leif
Ericsson's days and millenia before the folk who ride the things know
they didn't buy a seat in a 737 and some are not gonna come back.

That's not how it was sold, though. Ask the McAuliffes if they were told
that there was a 1 in 75 chance of augering in.

Sure they knew, just like the relatives of military aircrews know the
level of risk involved. Whether they accept it and internalize it or
not is another story.

I don't think they were given the 1 in 75 number.

How 'bout we just bag the whole stupid Mars camping trip thing and
first build a new version of the Shuttle then put Wideband on the
front burner as a matter of national policy?

That makes way too much sense.

In fact the really sensible thing would be a cheap oneshot big booster for
unmanned payloads and a highly reliable but much smaller human transport
system. Send the big stuff on ahead and the astronauts meet it up there.

The UAs been doing that for thirty years.

those clever Rooskies!

Hey - didja see where they're planning a space walk on the ISS where all
the
crew will be outside at the same time, with nobody in the station? Didn't
they ever go to the movies back in 1968?

Was not the first time by any means and yup, it rained so they had to
duck back inside.

It was the first time for a US crew. The UAs did it many times on 'ol Mir.
Another space first for Ivan

73 de Jim, N2EY