"Flip-flop", Brain?

How do you get that from the post (requoted in it's entirety
here)...???

The "disincentive" to which he refers is to taking a test for
which there is no REGULATORY requirement...

Where's the "flip-flop", other than the ones you wear in the
shower?

Steve, K4YZ

(William) wrote in message om...
"Bill Sohl" wrote in message thlink.net...

Do the petitioners believe that if a General or Advanced
doesn't pass a code test that he/she wouldn't be
allowed by the FCC to operate morse?

What am I missing here?

Cheers,
Bill K2UNK

Bill, your question reminds me of a scenario painted by Steve, to
which TAFKA Rev Jim responded below. It is very enlightening to see
that after a decade of saying that the Morse Code Exam was no barrier
at all to the Amateur Service, he pipes in with a new theory - that a
Morse Exam is a disincentive to the use of CW on HF.

Thought you might enjoy the flip-flop.

bb
----------------
(William) wrote in message . com...
(N2EY) wrote in message ...
In article ,
(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) writes:
Morse Code endorsement required for opera-
tion in lower 100kHz of any band.

Bad idea. Acts as a disincentive to use CW and digital modes, and as an
incentive to use voice only!

Ahem, The Amateur Formerly Known As Rev. Jim, we've had that very same
or greater disincentive since 1912.

Why is it NOW a problem?

Why?
----------------

"Len Over 21" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(William) writes:

Remind me Jim, what do FISTS propose? Given that they are an
organisation
for the promotion of CW, I have trouble beleiving that they would
suggest
anything that is actually responsive to the removal of the
international CW
test requirement, but I could be wrong(?).

Alun

Alun, please remember that FISTS is an organization that promotes the
fun of morse code use. It was not meant to be a political
organization.

FISTS, a mighty force (with a woman at the helm) is bound and
determined to have EVERYONE enjoying what they enjoy...
despite the high noise floor of independent thought.

Tsk, tsk. Misogyny at work. It would seem that you are as 1920s are the
people you are complaining about.

Mark

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 01:23:16 GMT, "Bill Sohl"
wrote:


"Dave Heil" wrote in message
...
N2EY wrote:

"Bill Sohl" wrote in message
rthlink.net...
"N2EY" wrote in message
...

I believe there are a good number of family member techs
who probably have limited desire even to get on HF at all.

Around here we had lots of "honeydew hams" in the '80s and '90s
(people who got ham licenses to keep in touch with family members, not
because they were interested in radio itself). Nice folks but many
disappeared when cell phones became cheap and good coverage. FRS/GMRS
took some othere. And some discovered they were interested in radio
for its own sake, too. I think that phenomenon is the main reason for
the somewhat-lower renewal percentage of Techs.

Overheard on a 2m repeater in this area of the Ohio Valley yesterday:

"KC8--- this is KC8***, come back".

"KC8*** this is KC8--- . I have a copy on you. What's yer twenty?"

"I'm up here on the hill but you're scratchy. You must be overmodulatin
or somthing".

"Well I'm copyin' you pretty good considering the distance between us".

"Yeah, 4-Roger. It's pretty amazin' that these little hand held radios
will talk this far from each other".

It is a brave new world of amateur radio.

Dave,

Exactly what is wrong with the above dialog between the two
parties involved?

Now before answering, consider this:

1. Both parties ID'd as required by law.
2. Neither party used any type of clandestine or
secret code.
3. Both parties appear to have understood each other.

Who cares about how we dialog with each other
as long as the parties involved are operating within the
law as per Part 97 rules and regs?

Good point - aside from the obvious lack of technical knowledge of the
two parties, this convesation was certainly no sillier than the ones
that are frequently heard on SSB HF - excessive use of Q-codes instead
of plain speech, saying 'hi hi' instead of just laughing, and using
non-standard phonetics ("this is WXX Really Big Antenna, name here is
Mike, Mary India Kilowatt England, QSL?")

Jeez!


Cheers,
Bill K2UNK

73, Leo

Alun wrote in message .. .
(William) wrote in
m:

Alun wrote in message
. ..
PAMNO (N2EY) wrote in
:

In article , Alun
writes:

I think the proposal is on AG4RQ's website.

73 de Jim, N2EY

Doesn't sound a likely prosepect

The FISTS proposal has more of a chance, I think.

It will be interesting to see when/if all these proposals get RM
numbers and how long it is before FCC does the NPRM thing. Perhaps
we need another pool!

73 de Jim, N2EY




Remind me Jim, what do FISTS propose? Given that they are an
organisation for the promotion of CW, I have trouble beleiving that
they would suggest anything that is actually responsive to the removal
of the international CW test requirement, but I could be wrong(?).

Alun

Alun, please remember that FISTS is an organization that promotes the
fun of morse code use. It was not meant to be a political
organization.


I agree fully. I can't quite see them filing a petition to scrap Element 1,
though, can you?

I can't seem to find any of the [expletive deleted] virulent netcops
ragging on FISTS as they have NCI for overstepping their stated
bounds.

Why is that?

In article , "Mark Little"
writes:

"Len Over 21" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(William) writes:

Remind me Jim, what do FISTS propose? Given that they are an
organisation
for the promotion of CW, I have trouble beleiving that they would
suggest
anything that is actually responsive to the removal of the
international CW
test requirement, but I could be wrong(?).

Alun

Alun, please remember that FISTS is an organization that promotes the
fun of morse code use. It was not meant to be a political
organization.

FISTS, a mighty force (with a woman at the helm) is bound and
determined to have EVERYONE enjoying what they enjoy...
despite the high noise floor of independent thought.

Tsk, tsk. Misogyny at work. It would seem that you are as 1920s are the
people you are complaining about.

Tsk, tsk, Mark, you fail to note _sarcasm_ in the posting. :-)

Note some of the OTHER players in this zoo...emphasis on
machismo ("be a real man and learn code"...etc.).

Note the long-time name FISTS as an organization of code lovers
with its close emotional attachment to machismo, strength, power
and so forth embodied by "fists."

Thumbing through any collection of U.S. amateur radio magazines
that have photographs of amateurs will reveal that U.S. amateurs
are overwhelmingly male and white. For at least a half century.

"Machismo" is a modified latino name for extreme maleness in
the traditional male role of strength, power, fighting ability, and
(to some) leadership of the tribe. :-)

I should apologize for the use of a latino label since, to us in the
U.S. sunbelt (all states along the southern border), Spanish words
and phrases are somewhat common in our version of English. I
don't believe that is true in Australia or New Zealand or even the
UK where modified English is also spoken. :-)

The "tribe" aspect shouldn't be overlooked since there is some
extreme polarization on the issue and the fight-to-the-death
attitude of olde-tymers demanding strict and utter adherence to
to the glorious and noble ways of Their youth. Everyone MUST
do as They did or not be considered as "real" as They are. :-)

Note the comment of Brian Burke in this thread. He notes that it
seems perfectly permissible for any FISTS member to denounce
NCI at any time, yet the converse is not possible. :-) Hypocrisy
in clear evidence, the one-sided fight-to-the-death attitude in full
fury by the code lovers.

I find it curiously odd that the mighty male morseman legions of
FISTS be headed by Nancy Kott, clearly a female in photographs.

Of course, again from my geographical vantage point in the middle
of the movie mecca, Los Angeles, here there be experts in make-
up. Who knows what ever lurks behind the "front panel?" :-)

Best regards from Len (Love Easy Nancy).

LHA / WMD

Bill Sohl wrote:

"Dave Heil" wrote in message
...
N2EY wrote:

"Bill Sohl" wrote in message
thlink.net...
"N2EY" wrote in message
...

I believe there are a good number of family member techs
who probably have limited desire even to get on HF at all.

Around here we had lots of "honeydew hams" in the '80s and '90s
(people who got ham licenses to keep in touch with family members, not
because they were interested in radio itself). Nice folks but many
disappeared when cell phones became cheap and good coverage. FRS/GMRS
took some othere. And some discovered they were interested in radio
for its own sake, too. I think that phenomenon is the main reason for
the somewhat-lower renewal percentage of Techs.

Overheard on a 2m repeater in this area of the Ohio Valley yesterday:

"KC8--- this is KC8***, come back".

"KC8*** this is KC8--- . I have a copy on you. What's yer twenty?"

"I'm up here on the hill but you're scratchy. You must be overmodulatin
or somthing".

"Well I'm copyin' you pretty good considering the distance between us".

"Yeah, 4-Roger. It's pretty amazin' that these little hand held radios
will talk this far from each other".

It is a brave new world of amateur radio.

Dave,

Exactly what is wrong with the above dialog between the two
parties involved?

Now before answering, consider this:

1. Both parties ID'd as required by law.
2. Neither party used any type of clandestine or
secret code.
3. Both parties appear to have understood each other.

They certainly understood each other. Neither understood the concept of
a repeater. Now, to what I understand: I understand that both of these
ops have brought their bad habits from CB radio with them. Neither has
bothered to listen to other hams. These two were joined by a new YL op
the other day. She was a "do you want me to pick up bread and milk?"
type. I'll be very surprised if any of the three will be active on the
ham bands in five years.

Who cares about how we dialog with each other
as long as the parties involved are operating within the
law as per Part 97 rules and regs?

I do.

We've even got a new op who can be heard moving between the several
local repeaters for a goodly part of each day saying, "This is KC8***
radio check". He'll sometimes pull this stunt on top of an ongoing
QSO. He has been informed on a number of occasions about how to make it
clear that he is seeking a contact and how not to QRM an existing
contact but he persists. When he does enter a QSO, he normally asks the
individuals he contacts if they have any radios they'd like to part
with. He has now asked me about six times. This fellow is annoying and
others--old timers and recent licensees--are beginning to avoid him.

There is another new ham in the area who was previously a CBer. He was
licensed only this past May. He quickly became adjusted to how things
are done on the ham bands. He asks questions about antennas, modes
other than FM, bands other than 2m and about operating practices. He
aroused interest in his grandson, who is now licensed. I'm betting that
these two will stick.

Dave K8MN

Len Over 21 wrote:

Them olde-tymers have been stewing since 1958 when ordinary
civilians could legally use radios on HF without a morse test. A
mere 46 years ago and they've been enforcing the letter of the
unwritten law ever since. :-)

I'm not enough of an old timer to remember hams losing the 11m band. It
took place five years before I obtained my first license. I am pleased
that you've been provided a haven for your HF radio activity.

By the way, radio amateurs are "ordinary civilians" who happen to have
passed a license exam.

Dave K8MN

Len Over 21 wrote:

FISTS, a mighty force (with a woman at the helm) is bound and
determined to have EVERYONE enjoying what they enjoy...
despite the high noise floor of independent thought.

Do you have a problem with women as leaders of organizations? When did
FISTS refer to itself as a mighty force?

They make [expletive deleted] sure that will be ENFORCED by
keeping the morse code test in amateurism forever and ever.

"It" will be enforced? What is "it"?

FISTS represents the "amateur community."

FISTS represents a portion of the amateur radio community. You, on the
other hand, play no part in the amateur radio community.

Ergo, all amateurs must demonstrate their dedication and resolve
by satisfying FISTS.

How funny is that? You'd have us believe that your views on how amateur
radio should be adopted and you have nothing to do with amateur radio.

[LHA/WMD deleted]

Dave K8MN

"Dave Heil" wrote in message
...
Bill Sohl wrote:

"Dave Heil" wrote in message
...
N2EY wrote:

"Bill Sohl" wrote in message
thlink.net...
"N2EY" wrote in message
...

I believe there are a good number of family member techs
who probably have limited desire even to get on HF at all.

Around here we had lots of "honeydew hams" in the '80s and '90s
(people who got ham licenses to keep in touch with family members,
not
because they were interested in radio itself). Nice folks but many
disappeared when cell phones became cheap and good coverage.
FRS/GMRS
took some othere. And some discovered they were interested in radio
for its own sake, too. I think that phenomenon is the main reason
for
the somewhat-lower renewal percentage of Techs.

Overheard on a 2m repeater in this area of the Ohio Valley yesterday:

"KC8--- this is KC8***, come back".

"KC8*** this is KC8--- . I have a copy on you. What's yer twenty?"

"I'm up here on the hill but you're scratchy. You must be
overmodulatin
or somthing".

"Well I'm copyin' you pretty good considering the distance between
us".

"Yeah, 4-Roger. It's pretty amazin' that these little hand held
radios
will talk this far from each other".

It is a brave new world of amateur radio.

Dave,

Exactly what is wrong with the above dialog between the two
parties involved?

Now before answering, consider this:

1. Both parties ID'd as required by law.
2. Neither party used any type of clandestine or
secret code.
3. Both parties appear to have understood each other.

They certainly understood each other.

OK

Neither understood the concept of a repeater.

So what? Does that bother anyone?

Now, to what I understand: I understand that both of these
ops have brought their bad habits from CB radio with them.

What bad habits. I don't see any at all. You may
not like their conversation, but there is NO aspect
of Part 97 that requires any specific use of only
"ham" approved lingo...or did I skip that chapter somehow.

Neither has
bothered to listen to other hams.

For what reason must they do so? What about their
use of the repeater as you dicribed is wrong?

These two were joined by a new YL op
the other day. She was a "do you want me to
pick up bread and milk?" type.

One of my best ham buddies is a long time Extra and his wife
chats with him on almost every homebound commute. In
some cases she gives him a "honey do" list of things to get
from the market on the way home. What's wrong with
that (i.e. what's wrong with "pick up bread & milk."

I'll be very surprised if any of the three will be active on the
ham bands in five years.

I'll presume that should make you very pleased then.

Who cares about how we dialog with each other
as long as the parties involved are operating within the
law as per Part 97 rules and regs?

I do.

Based on what authority? You are free to worry your
poor self about whatever you want, but thankfully you
have no authority to enforce your own standards of how
to speak on the air on anyone but yourself.

We've even got a new op who can be heard moving between the several
local repeaters for a goodly part of each day saying, "This is KC8***
radio check".

And that violates what in Part 97?

He'll sometimes pull this stunt on top of an ongoing
QSO.

That then IS a violation. I'd fully support the area hams
directing him as to the rules to NOT QRM an existing QSO.

He has been informed on a number of occasions about how to make it
clear that he is seeking a contact and how not to QRM an existing
contact but he persists.

If, that is as you say, then report him to the FCC.

When he does enter a QSO, he normally asks the
individuals he contacts if they have any radios they'd like to part
with.

And that violates what Part 97 rule?

He has now asked me about six times.

Maybe he has Alzheimers.

This fellow is annoying and
others--old timers and recent licensees--are beginning to avoid him.

Which is perfectly OK.

There is another new ham in the area who was previously a CBer. He was
licensed only this past May. He quickly became adjusted to how things
are done on the ham bands. He asks questions about antennas, modes
other than FM, bands other than 2m and about operating practices. He
aroused interest in his grandson, who is now licensed. I'm betting that
these two will stick.

Fine with me.

Cheers,
Bill K2UNK