To give you a lough for the day, and maybe you fell better about your fuel
prices:

Gernerally, fuel prices over here in EU are around 1,00 Euro PER LITER
(quarter gallon), so don't complain about high prices. Though almost 50%
driving diesel (abt 0,80 euros /liter) powered vehicles (exluding commercial
trucks), we also have this price differences within short range.
Szenario: Driving from Venice/IT to Prague/Tschechnia (400 miles) fill up in
venice for 1.09, next stop near Vienna/Austria you pay only 0.65 and in
prague you can get hte liter of diesel for slightly over 50 cents.
They (Oil Companies) use the same excuse for the different prices as they do
over there at your side. BTW, ESSO and MOBILE also are the most expensive
brands over here.

Thats why Volkswagen, BMW, Mercedes and all the other non-US Car
manufacturers sell their "premium edition" multi cylinder high consumption
vehicles to the States. They never could sell lots of them over here.

Modern Diesel engines have a mileage per gallon of 60 or 70. And their
performance is not less the gas engines.

So, now you can rest back at your next refueling stop, let the gas go into
your tank, and when at the cashier, just SMILE.
You know, you are filling up CHEAP.

Greetings from Austria

73 de OE8SOQ
Helmut

"Old School" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
| All that profit goes into Bush's pocket.
|
| There should be a shutdown of transport. The gas prices are ridiculous
| especially when you pay $2.09 here and can go to a city 100 miles away
| and pay 0.50 cents less a gallon. They say it cost more to transport
| the gas here, but the same truck delivers at that city 100 miles south
| and another city 50 miles north where both cities north and south are
| the same price. Doesnt make sense. Price Gouging is what it is.
|
| On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 23:55:58 +0100 (CET), Anonymous via the
| Cypherpunks Tonga Remailer wrote:
|
| Mobil/Exxon posted the largest profit in history, last quarter! You
can't
| boycott all gasoline...but you CAN boycott the largest company! Don't
buy
| gas, don't buy snacks, don't buy coffe from these folks. Let 'em know
| you're mad as hell and not going to take it anymore!
|
| And for any of you truck drivers, if you want to take part in a transport
| shut down like they did in England a few years back, you have my
blessing.
| Just give us a little warning before hand so we can all stock up on
groceries.
|
| *Why would Bush allow these high gas prices to ruin his economic
recovery?
| Cuz he's gonna take one "for the team". He's going to take a dive for
the
| Republicans so the Clinton's won't be able to take the White House in
four
| years......
|

"Helmut" wrote in message ...
To give you a lough for the day, and maybe you fell better about your fuel
prices:

Gernerally, fuel prices over here in EU are around 1,00 Euro PER LITER
(quarter gallon), so don't complain about high prices.

Your high prices are because of punitive taxation by your elected
governments.

Though almost 50%
driving diesel (abt 0,80 euros /liter) powered vehicles (exluding commercial
trucks), we also have this price differences within short range.
Szenario: Driving from Venice/IT to Prague/Tschechnia (400 miles) fill up in
venice for 1.09, next stop near Vienna/Austria you pay only 0.65 and in
prague you can get hte liter of diesel for slightly over 50 cents.
They (Oil Companies) use the same excuse for the different prices as they do
over there at your side. BTW, ESSO and MOBILE also are the most expensive
brands over here.

In central Ohio, the price of gas fluctuates +/- .25 every week. My
dad goes to Florida each winter, the price of gas fluctuates there +/-
0.

Thats why Volkswagen, BMW, Mercedes and all the other non-US Car
manufacturers sell their "premium edition" multi cylinder high consumption
vehicles to the States. They never could sell lots of them over here.

They only dump the showboats on the USA because Bill Clinton/Algore
forgot to renew the EPA Fleet Miles Per Gallon requirements. They
were [expletive deleted] idiots. So much for "Earth in the Balance!"

Modern Diesel engines have a mileage per gallon of 60 or 70. And their
performance is not less the gas engines.

So, now you can rest back at your next refueling stop, let the gas go into
your tank, and when at the cashier, just SMILE.
You know, you are filling up CHEAP.

We pay for our fuel in different ways. I don't see too many EU
soldiers trying to keep the flow of oil moving out of the mideast.

Greetings from Austria

73 de OE8SOQ
Helmut

bb

(William) wrote in message . com...
"Helmut" wrote in message ...
To give you a lough for the day, and maybe you fell better about your fuel
prices:

Gernerally, fuel prices over here in EU are around 1,00 Euro PER LITER
(quarter gallon), so don't complain about high prices.

Your high prices are because of punitive taxation by your elected
governments.

They're probably passing higher taxes as we speak.

Though almost 50%
driving diesel (abt 0,80 euros /liter) powered vehicles (exluding commercial
trucks), we also have this price differences within short range.
Szenario: Driving from Venice/IT to Prague/Tschechnia (400 miles) fill up in
venice for 1.09, next stop near Vienna/Austria you pay only 0.65 and in
prague you can get hte liter of diesel for slightly over 50 cents.
They (Oil Companies) use the same excuse for the different prices as they do
over there at your side. BTW, ESSO and MOBILE also are the most expensive
brands over here.

In central Ohio, the price of gas fluctuates +/- .25 every week. My
dad goes to Florida each winter, the price of gas fluctuates there +/-
0.

It was $1.58.99 this morning. This afternoon it is $1.78.99.
Probably be back to $1.58.99 by Wednesday. I'll keep you posted.

Thats why Volkswagen, BMW, Mercedes and all the other non-US Car
manufacturers sell their "premium edition" multi cylinder high consumption
vehicles to the States. They never could sell lots of them over here.

They only dump the showboats on the USA because Bill Clinton/Algore
forgot to renew the EPA Fleet Miles Per Gallon requirements. They
were [expletive deleted] idiots. So much for "Earth in the Balance!"

I was looking at newer used cars today. Hardly a 4-banger out there
anymore. Everything seems to be a 200hp Six or higher.

Modern Diesel engines have a mileage per gallon of 60 or 70. And their
performance is not less the gas engines.

Impossible. And then there's the noise. Sounds like someone put a
length of chain in a galvanized bucket and strapped it on a paint
shaker.

So, now you can rest back at your next refueling stop, let the gas go into
your tank, and when at the cashier, just SMILE.
You know, you are filling up CHEAP.

Diesel is often higher than gas.

We pay for our fuel in different ways. I don't see too many EU
soldiers trying to keep the flow of oil moving out of the mideast.

Greetings from Austria

73 de OE8SOQ
Helmut

bb

bb

(William) wrote in message . com...
"Helmut" wrote in message ...

Thats why Volkswagen, BMW, Mercedes and all the other non-US Car
manufacturers sell their "premium edition" multi cylinder high consumption
vehicles to the States. They never could sell lots of them over here.

They only dump the showboats on the USA because Bill Clinton/Algore
forgot to renew the EPA Fleet Miles Per Gallon requirements. They
were [expletive deleted] idiots. So much for "Earth in the Balance!"

And if they HAD signed it, we'd just have more expensive BMW's
and Mercedes here since the cost of the additional engineering would
be passed on to the consumer...And American's WOULD pay it...

People once said that Americans would stop smoking once the price
of cigs went over $2.00/pk...well, it's been that way for a long time,
save for a few cheap "generic" brands, and the "name brands" don't
seem to be in any distress.

Americans like what they like, and will pay to get what they
like. That's a "consumer driven" market.

73

Steve, K4YZ

(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) wrote in message . com...
(William) wrote in message . com...
"Helmut" wrote in message ...

Thats why Volkswagen, BMW, Mercedes and all the other non-US Car
manufacturers sell their "premium edition" multi cylinder high consumption
vehicles to the States. They never could sell lots of them over here.

They only dump the showboats on the USA because Bill Clinton/Algore
forgot to renew the EPA Fleet Miles Per Gallon requirements. They
were [expletive deleted] idiots. So much for "Earth in the Balance!"

And if they HAD signed it, we'd just have more expensive BMW's
and Mercedes here since the cost of the additional engineering would
be passed on to the consumer...And American's WOULD pay it...

Idjit! Do you recall the tiny little POS with the Mercedes hood
ornament on it?

Mercedes had to meet the FLEET Mileage requirements (when that law was
alive).

People once said that Americans would stop smoking once the price
of cigs went over $2.00/pk...well, it's been that way for a long time,
save for a few cheap "generic" brands, and the "name brands" don't
seem to be in any distress.

Are you going thru nicotine withdrawal?

If you're going to post off-topic, at least stay on your off-topic
rahter than jumping around so much.

Americans like what they like, and will pay to get what they
like. That's a "consumer driven" market.

Drugs. #2 problem in America.

In article , "Helmut"
writes:

To give you a lough for the day, and maybe you fell better about your fuel
prices:

Gernerally, fuel prices over here in EU are around 1,00 Euro PER LITER
(quarter gallon), so don't complain about high prices.

European fuel prices are that high in large part because of very high taxes.
The tax revenues are used for the roads and also to subsidize bus, transit
(Metro) and rail service. Unlike the USA, public transportation in Europe is
not expected to make money or even to meet its own expenses.

Though almost 50%
driving diesel (abt 0,80 euros /liter) powered vehicles (exluding commercial
trucks), we also have this price differences within short range.

Szenario: Driving from Venice/IT to Prague/Tschechnia (400 miles) fill up in
venice for 1.09, next stop near Vienna/Austria you pay only 0.65 and in
prague you can get hte liter of diesel for slightly over 50 cents.

That's only $2.00 per gallon! I've seen diesel prices in excess of $2 gallon
here at times.

They (Oil Companies) use the same excuse for the different prices as they do
over there at your side. BTW, ESSO and MOBILE also are the most expensive
brands over here.

Thats why Volkswagen, BMW, Mercedes and all the other non-US Car
manufacturers sell their "premium edition" multi cylinder high consumption
vehicles to the States. They never could sell lots of them over here.

Modern Diesel engines have a mileage per gallon of 60 or 70.

Only in small cars.

And their
performance is not less the gas engines.

Agreed. But the first-cost is greater. And at US fuel prices, the difference
may not be worth it.

Suppose the diesel car gets 60 MPG and the equivalent gasoline car gets 40 MPG.
And suppose the car is driven 12,000 miles per year. That's 300 gallons of
gasoline vs. 200 gallons of diesel. If both fuels cost about the same (as they
usually do in the USA), the saving is only $150-200 per year. Compared to the
price of the car, insurance, repairs, maintenance, etc, that's not much saving.

So, now you can rest back at your next refueling stop, let the gas go into
your tank, and when at the cashier, just SMILE.
You know, you are filling up CHEAP.

Back in 1980 I bought a VW Rabbit Diesel. Over its 17 year lifetime, I got 43
mpg combined (I kept very accurate records). An equivalent gasoline Rabbit
would have probably done about 30 mpg.

But the diesel engine cost $900 more back then. Considering all factors, I
didn't save very much driving an oil burner.

73 de Jim, N2EY

PAMNO (N2EY) wrote in message ...
In article , "Helmut"
writes:

To give you a lough for the day, and maybe you fell better about your fuel
prices:

Gernerally, fuel prices over here in EU are around 1,00 Euro PER LITER
(quarter gallon), so don't complain about high prices.

European fuel prices are that high in large part because of very high taxes.

Helmut has been informed.

The tax revenues are used for the roads and also to subsidize bus, transit
(Metro) and rail service. Unlike the USA, public transportation in Europe is
not expected to make money or even to meet its own expenses.

Where in America does public transportation meet its own expenses?

In article , PAMNO
(N2EY) writes:

European fuel prices are that high in large part because of very high taxes.
The tax revenues are used for the roads and also to subsidize bus, transit
(Metro) and rail service. Unlike the USA, public transportation in Europe is
not expected to make money or even to meet its own expenses.

Jim:

Don't look now, but ALL public transit in the United States exists mainly due
to state and federal subsidies which provide virtually all of the funding
needed
for the procurement of vehicles, facilities, communications systems, and most
of the operating costs. If public transit had to "pay it's own way," I, for
one
public transit employee, would not have a job. I drive Paratransit in Kent
County, Delaware, and the cash I turn in from my fare box at the end of the
day would not pay for an hour's worth of my wages. At best, a few of our
more heavily utilized fixed-routes in Wilmington might just possibly pay for
the fuel consumed and other routine expenses, but wouldn't even come close
to covering all of the essential overhead.

Thats why Volkswagen, BMW, Mercedes and all the other non-US Car
manufacturers sell their "premium edition" multi cylinder high consumption
vehicles to the States. They never could sell lots of them over here.

Modern Diesel engines have a mileage per gallon of 60 or 70.

Only in small cars.

True, and that's part of the reason why diesel engines are not more common
in U.S. passenger vehicles. Partly by necessity but mainly by preference,
us Americans prefer to drive massive, heavy, inherently inefficient vehicles
such as all those 4-wheel drive SUV's being driven exclusively on perfectly
clear dry roads and highways. If only we were a lot smarter in our choices
of vehicles, we could probably benefit from the many advantages of diesel
engines, which can now be made as "clean" as gasoline engines.

And their
performance is not less the gas engines.

Agreed. But the first-cost is greater. And at US fuel prices, the difference
may not be worth it.

It would be if we started viewing our vehicles as the mere transportation
appliances they should be, and not as outward extensions of our personalities
or demonstrations of our wealth.

Suppose the diesel car gets 60 MPG and the equivalent gasoline car gets 40
MPG.
And suppose the car is driven 12,000 miles per year. That's 300 gallons of
gasoline vs. 200 gallons of diesel. If both fuels cost about the same (as
they
usually do in the USA), the saving is only $150-200 per year. Compared to the
price of the car, insurance, repairs, maintenance, etc, that's not much
saving.

Now consider a driver who must drive anywhere from 25 to 30,000 miles a
year, for business purposes or just a particularly long commute from a rural
area to the city where he/she works. Now the fuel cost savings of a diesel
start to look very attractive indeed!

So, now you can rest back at your next refueling stop, let the gas go into
your tank, and when at the cashier, just SMILE.
You know, you are filling up CHEAP.

Back in 1980 I bought a VW Rabbit Diesel. Over its 17 year lifetime, I got 43
mpg combined (I kept very accurate records). An equivalent gasoline Rabbit
would have probably done about 30 mpg.

But the diesel engine cost $900 more back then. Considering all factors, I
didn't save very much driving an oil burner.

If a high mileage diesel-engine version of the Ford Focus, Honda Civic,
Toyota Corolla (my automobile!) and every other econo-box in the same
class as the VW Rabbit were available, then the additional cost wouldn't
be so great as to skim the potential savings off from the top. Modern
diesel engines are clean, efficient, and have more than adequate power for
vehicles that would adequately serve over 80% of the American travelling
public. They are no more difficult to maintain than a gasoline engine of
equivalent power, and generally last longer because they are, out of
necessity, built stronger. There's gotta be some reason why we aren't
using more diesel power here in the U.S., but I am at a loss to explain it.

73 de Larry, K3LT
2003 Toyota Corolla LE (Automatic)
Averaging 30 MPG City, 41 MPG Highway

In article , ospam
(Larry Roll K3LT) writes:

In article , PAMNO
(N2EY) writes:

European fuel prices are that high in large part because of very high taxes.
The tax revenues are used for the roads and also to subsidize bus, transit
(Metro) and rail service. Unlike the USA, public transportation in Europe is
not expected to make money or even to meet its own expenses.

Jim:

Don't look now, but ALL public transit in the United States exists mainly due
to state and federal subsidies which provide virtually all of the funding
needed
for the procurement of vehicles, facilities, communications systems, and most
of the operating costs.

Not in the case of SEPTA and Amtrak! While there is some support, it is nowhere
near the level of support in Europe.

More importantly, the support is not long-term.

If public transit had to "pay it's own way," I, for
one
public transit employee, would not have a job. I drive Paratransit in Kent
County, Delaware, and the cash I turn in from my fare box at the end of the
day would not pay for an hour's worth of my wages.

That's because of the location and route. Try a major metro area like Philly at
rush hour.

At best, a few of our
more heavily utilized fixed-routes in Wilmington might just possibly pay for
the fuel consumed and other routine expenses, but wouldn't even come close
to covering all of the essential overhead.

The same is true of other forms of transportation. Airlines don't build
airports, nor air traffic control systems, nor the weather and comm systems
needed to run them.

Thats why Volkswagen, BMW, Mercedes and all the other non-US Car
manufacturers sell their "premium edition" multi cylinder high consumption
vehicles to the States. They never could sell lots of them over here.

Modern Diesel engines have a mileage per gallon of 60 or 70.

Only in small cars.

True, and that's part of the reason why diesel engines are not more common
in U.S. passenger vehicles. Partly by necessity but mainly by preference,
us Americans prefer to drive massive, heavy, inherently inefficient vehicles
such as all those 4-wheel drive SUV's being driven exclusively on perfectly
clear dry roads and highways.

I agree 100%.

If only we were a lot smarter in our choices
of vehicles, we could probably benefit from the many advantages of diesel
engines, which can now be made as "clean" as gasoline engines.

Been that way for years. My 19080 Rabbit had to meet the same emission specs as
gasoline engines.

And their
performance is not less the gas engines.

Agreed. But the first-cost is greater. And at US fuel prices, the difference
may not be worth it.

It would be if we started viewing our vehicles as the mere transportation
appliances they should be, and not as outward extensions of our personalities
or demonstrations of our wealth.

Something I've said for years.

Suppose the diesel car gets 60 MPG and the equivalent gasoline car gets 40
MPG.
And suppose the car is driven 12,000 miles per year. That's 300 gallons of
gasoline vs. 200 gallons of diesel. If both fuels cost about the same (as
they
usually do in the USA), the saving is only $150-200 per year. Compared to
the
price of the car, insurance, repairs, maintenance, etc, that's not much
saving.

Now consider a driver who must drive anywhere from 25 to 30,000 miles a
year, for business purposes or just a particularly long commute from a rural
area to the city where he/she works. Now the fuel cost savings of a diesel
start to look very attractive indeed!

Maybe. Let's see - at 30K miles per year, the diesel burns 500 gallons per year
and the gasoline car 750 gallons. That's a sayings of 250 gallons per year. At
$2 per gallon, it's still not much of savings compared to other costs.

More important, the person who drives that much (such as a certain absent
rrapper who commutes ~120 miles per day) often wants a bigger car for the
perceived comfort and safety. (Note the word "perceived").

So, now you can rest back at your next refueling stop, let the gas go into
your tank, and when at the cashier, just SMILE.
You know, you are filling up CHEAP.

Back in 1980 I bought a VW Rabbit Diesel. Over its 17 year lifetime, I got
43
mpg combined (I kept very accurate records). An equivalent gasoline Rabbit
would have probably done about 30 mpg.

But the diesel engine cost $900 more back then. Considering all factors, I
didn't save very much driving an oil burner.

If a high mileage diesel-engine version of the Ford Focus, Honda Civic,
Toyota Corolla (my automobile!)

Toyota is the world leader in hybrid car technology. The Prius is an example.

and every other econo-box in the same
class as the VW Rabbit were available, then the additional cost wouldn't
be so great as to skim the potential savings off from the top.

Not exactly. The manufacturers all use different engines. The cost differential
reflectes the added manufacturing cost of the diesel.

Modern
diesel engines are clean, efficient, and have more than adequate power for
vehicles that would adequately serve over 80% of the American travelling
public.

But you don't drive one!

They are no more difficult to maintain than a gasoline engine of
equivalent power, and generally last longer because they are, out of
necessity, built stronger.

They are also less tolerant of poor maintenance, bad fuel, and sloppy driving.
They also have a bad reputation in some circles due to poorly designed engines
such as were used in some GM cars 20+ years ago.

There's gotta be some reason why we aren't
using more diesel power here in the U.S., but I am at a loss to explain it.

A combination of factors, but they fall into two categories: "Image" (diesels
are not perceived to be "cool" in the USA) and cost (gas is so cheap and
plentiful that most people don't worry about it much.)

73 de Larry, K3LT
2003 Toyota Corolla LE (Automatic)
Averaging 30 MPG City, 41 MPG Highway

My old car got ~41 city, ~52 highway. With late-1970s technology in a car
weighing over 2200 pounds. The modern TDI VWs do even better.

Then there's the other end of the spectrum:

http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ccsshb/12cyl/

73 de Jim, N2EY

In article , PAMNO
(N2EY) writes:

My old car got ~41 city, ~52 highway. With late-1970s technology in a car
weighing over 2200 pounds. The modern TDI VWs do even better.

Then there's the other end of the spectrum:

http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ccsshb/12cyl/

How does that apply to amateur RADIO policy?

Try the automotive newsgroups on the first floor. They are chock
full of mileage gas brags.

LHA / WMD