PAMNO (N2EY) wrote in
:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

And the truly ironic part is that Ralph "Unsafe At Any Speed" was a
major factor in putting an oilman in the White House by dividing the
opposition in 2000. And he's poised to repeat that trick later this
year.

I heard the Green party has something to say about all this.

I betcha there were a LOT of resignations from that party when they saw
what happened in 2000.

At any
rate, they aren't backing Ralph. His support this year is likely to be
down in the noise. Without a party backing him, he's just another
Harold Stassen.

I hope so.

Another example is the expectation of a trained workforce without
investing the resources in education to produce that workforce.
"Resources" doesn't just mean "money", either, though money is a big
part of it.

Agreed. The cost of education is running out of control.

It has far exceeded the general inflation level, yet is more
necessary than ever.

If the cost continues at double digit increases every year, and
the
graduate stands a pretty good chance of his/her entire field being made
redundant, the necessity of the education is going to go away. Granted
the would-be student is flippin burgers, but their job won't be made
irrelevant.

That's one possibility. Another is bankruptcy and the resulting
defaults on student and other loans.

The problem with that is that I don't think you can write off student loans
through bankruptcy. So, you may not get graduates going intentionally
bankrupt, but the inability to pay it off may lead more people into
bankruptcy. They may then still owe the loan, but it won't get paid back.


Makes me think of the "They Might be Giants" Sone "Minimum Wage"

Here's one data point:

In the fall of 1972, when I entered the University of Pennsylvania,
tuition alone (no books, fees, etc.) was $3000/year. Which was very
expensive at the time. Today the same school charges more than 10
times that. But will the starting salary offered to a BSEE in 2006 be
more than 10 times what it was in 1976, when I graduated? Is
fininacial aid 10 times what it was in my time there? Nope.

Add to this the fact that a kid who worked at minimum wage during the
weekends,
summer and holidays could make a sizable dent in that $3000/year
tuition. If a
kid could take home $1.50 an hour, and manage to put in 1000 hours per
year, there's half the tuition. Today, if a kid can take home $5 an
hour and put in the same 1000 hours, the resulting $5000 is only about
1/6 of the tuition.

That's just not right.

73 de Jim, N2EY



No argument there. Back home in the UK they used to give everyone grants.
They were means tested, and of course if your parents were middle income
you would be the poorest student in college. However, now they are phasing
out grants and bringing in loans. This is also a big mistake.

Our governments need to invest more in putting people through higher
education. It doesn't really matter whether they do it by giving money to
the colleges or to the students, provided the former results in lower fees,
but they need to do it. An educated workforce is the most important thing
they could be putting their money into.

73 de Alun, N3KIP

In article , Alun
writes:

Then outside the disaster arena, there's all the marathons,
walk-a-thons, bike-a-thons and myriad other public events for which
hams routinely provide communications. Our club supports 4 or 5 of
these per year.

Those are good practice.

BTW, I am not intending to call anyone stupid, but I just couldn't resist
the title.

Some things just "write themselves..." :-)

By the way, the Los Angeles Marathon was a success on Sunday,
record turn-out, everything run just fine. It can be done very well
without any amateur radio help but the ARRL copy scribblers
would have a cow about that. :-)

LHA / WMD

(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...

By the way, the Los Angeles Marathon was a success on Sunday,
record turn-out, everything run just fine. It can be done very well
without any amateur radio help but the ARRL copy scribblers
would have a cow about that.

It very well may...but it seems to just eat at you that Amateur
Radio IS involved, much to the gratification of the folks who run
it...

Whew...

Steve, K4YZ

(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...
In article , Alun
writes:

Then outside the disaster arena, there's all the marathons,
walk-a-thons, bike-a-thons and myriad other public events for which
hams routinely provide communications. Our club supports 4 or 5 of
these per year.

Those are good practice.


By the way, the Los Angeles Marathon was a success on Sunday,
record turn-out, everything run just fine.

What was your finishing time, Len? How were course conditions?

It can be done very well
without any amateur radio help

How do you know? Ever work at a race? I have, in a variety of roles.
LA and other major marathons have been using amateur radio operators
for race communications for years.

See:

http://www.lamarathon.com/2004/volunteers.php


http://www.doitsports.com/volunteer/info.tcl?job_id=488

(sign up for radio operators - only licensed hams need apply)


http://www.cert-la.com/

(scroll down a bit to where it says "ham radio operators wanted")


but the ARRL copy scribblers would have a cow about that. :-)

"ARRL copy scribblers"? Who are they? You mean folks who write the
facts about what actually happened?

http://www.arrl.org/news/features/2002/02/28/1/?nc=1

Nice write up about the 2002 LA Marathon

Maybe you didn't see the hams, so you just assume they are not there
and play no role. That's simply Not True.

N2EY wrote:
(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...

In article , Alun
writes:


Then outside the disaster arena, there's all the marathons,
walk-a-thons, bike-a-thons and myriad other public events for which
hams routinely provide communications. Our club supports 4 or 5 of
these per year.

Those are good practice.


By the way, the Los Angeles Marathon was a success on Sunday,
record turn-out, everything run just fine.


What was your finishing time, Len? How were course conditions?


It can be done very well
without any amateur radio help


How do you know? Ever work at a race? I have, in a variety of roles.
LA and other major marathons have been using amateur radio operators
for race communications for years.

A local bike race decided to try using cell phones as an experiment last
year. The hams were along, with the knowledge that we might be
"redundant in the future. They found out:

Every person had to be called separately. When a message had to go to
the whole group, everyone had to be called.

Those who were out of coverage range did not get the messages.

Coverage over the entire course was pretty bad.

Using cell phones was an immediate and complete failure. they realized
this on the first call that had to go to everyone.


Cell phones work for some things, but the idea that they can replace
radio operators is best advanced by those that don't really know how
that particular job is done.


http://www.lamarathon.com/2004/volunteers.php


Some hams and ham equipment spotted in the pix.


http://www.doitsports.com/volunteer/info.tcl?job_id=488


(sign up for radio operators - only licensed hams need apply)


Really? I thunk all you needed was a cell phone and the ability to say
"can you hear me now?....how about now? 8^)

http://www.cert-la.com/

(scroll down a bit to where it says "ham radio operators wanted")

Do you think maybe they put that in as an affirmative action sort of
thing? Maybe they just wanted to get the Hams to shut their yap's? ;^)



but the ARRL copy scribblers would have a cow about that. :-)


"ARRL copy scribblers"? Who are they? You mean folks who write the
facts about what actually happened?

http://www.arrl.org/news/features/2002/02/28/1/?nc=1

Nice write up about the 2002 LA Marathon

Maybe you didn't see the hams, so you just assume they are not there
and play no role. That's simply Not True.

Capitalization noted, Jim. Do some people think that the hams are
suppose to be in the lead vehicle or leading the parade? Heck they are
supposed to be behind the scenes. Go figure.

-

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...
N2EY wrote:
(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...

In article , Alun
writes:


Then outside the disaster arena, there's all the marathons,
walk-a-thons, bike-a-thons and myriad other public events for which
hams routinely provide communications. Our club supports 4 or 5 of
these per year.

Those are good practice.


By the way, the Los Angeles Marathon was a success on Sunday,
record turn-out, everything run just fine.


What was your finishing time, Len? How were course conditions?


It can be done very well
without any amateur radio help


How do you know? Ever work at a race? I have, in a variety of roles.
LA and other major marathons have been using amateur radio operators
for race communications for years.

A local bike race decided to try using cell phones as an experiment last
year. The hams were along, with the knowledge that we might be
"redundant in the future. They found out:

Every person had to be called separately. When a message had to go to
the whole group, everyone had to be called.

Those who were out of coverage range did not get the messages.

Coverage over the entire course was pretty bad.

Using cell phones was an immediate and complete failure. they realized
this on the first call that had to go to everyone.

They couldn't figure all that out ahead of time?

Sounds to me like the hams were smart enough to simply let them try it
and see the problems first-hand.

Those same problems surfaced in groups searching for wreckage from the
space shuttle disaster last year.

Of course cell phones *do* have uses in those situations. Where one
specific person needs to talk to another specific person, and both are
in the coverage area, they're perfect.

Cell phones work for some things, but the idea that they can replace
radio operators is best advanced by those that don't really know how
that particular job is done.

You mean like folks who comment on marathons without ever having been
involved in one other than as a spectator? Or like folks who comment
on amateur radio without ever having been involved other than as a
spectator?

http://www.lamarathon.com/2004/volunteers.php

Some hams and ham equipment spotted in the pix.

Of course.

http://www.doitsports.com/volunteer/info.tcl?job_id=488

(sign up for radio operators - only licensed hams need apply)

Really? I thunk all you needed was a cell phone and the ability to say
"can you hear me now?....how about now? 8^)

That's what some "professionals" would have us believe...

http://www.cert-la.com/

(scroll down a bit to where it says "ham radio operators wanted")

Do you think maybe they put that in as an affirmative action sort of
thing? Maybe they just wanted to get the Hams to shut their yap's? ;^)

Naw, it's simpler than that.

Besides their considerable skills and experience, ham volunteers at
events like the LA Marathon provide their own equipment and usually
their own transportation and other support. Try hiring 200
"communications professionals" for a day just to supply radio
communications and see what happens to the race entry fee. (LA says
200 hams, NYC marathon says 400, but of course NYC is a lot bigger
race).

but the ARRL copy scribblers would have a cow about that. :-)

"ARRL copy scribblers"? Who are they? You mean folks who write the
facts about what actually happened?

http://www.arrl.org/news/features/2002/02/28/1/?nc=1

Nice write up about the 2002 LA Marathon

Maybe you didn't see the hams, so you just assume they are not there
and play no role. That's simply Not True.

Capitalization noted, Jim. Do some people think that the hams are
suppose to be in the lead vehicle or leading the parade?

Looks like it. But there are some folks who would deny the
participation and contributions of hams no matter what they did.

Heck they are
supposed to be behind the scenes. Go figure.

Of course. It's about the race!

73 de Jim, N2EY

Philadelphia Independence Marathon, 1982 and 1983.

N2EY wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in message ...

N2EY wrote:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...


In article , Alun
writes:



Then outside the disaster arena, there's all the marathons,
walk-a-thons, bike-a-thons and myriad other public events for which
hams routinely provide communications. Our club supports 4 or 5 of
these per year.

Those are good practice.


By the way, the Los Angeles Marathon was a success on Sunday,
record turn-out, everything run just fine.


What was your finishing time, Len? How were course conditions?



It can be done very well
without any amateur radio help


How do you know? Ever work at a race? I have, in a variety of roles.
LA and other major marathons have been using amateur radio operators
for race communications for years.

A local bike race decided to try using cell phones as an experiment last
year. The hams were along, with the knowledge that we might be
"redundant in the future. They found out:

Every person had to be called separately. When a message had to go to
the whole group, everyone had to be called.

Those who were out of coverage range did not get the messages.

Coverage over the entire course was pretty bad.

Using cell phones was an immediate and complete failure. they realized
this on the first call that had to go to everyone.


They couldn't figure all that out ahead of time?

Amazingly enough, no! Cell phones are seductive little things. After
all you can call around the world, send pictures of whatever, and even
look up your email on the web with them. So how on earth can such a
wonderful instrument *not* be good at running a race? Imagine, each and
every participant with their own little radio, ready for direct contact.

Any conclusion may be reached with insufficient thought!


Sounds to me like the hams were smart enough to simply let them try it
and see the problems first-hand.

Yup. All of us that had done events before just chuckled and waited.
First call for our help came through a couple minutes after the start.

Those same problems surfaced in groups searching for wreckage from the
space shuttle disaster last year.

Of course cell phones *do* have uses in those situations. Where one
specific person needs to talk to another specific person, and both are
in the coverage area, they're perfect.

Sure enough. But when many people need to hear instructions at the same
time, or if the area is large and rural, You need a multi-mode system,
and not just line of site low power stuff.

Cell phones work for some things, but the idea that they can replace
radio operators is best advanced by those that don't really know how
that particular job is done.


You mean like folks who comment on marathons without ever having been
involved in one other than as a spectator? Or like folks who comment
on amateur radio without ever having been involved other than as a
spectator?

Well, when you put it *that* way, yup!



http://www.lamarathon.com/2004/volunteers.php

Some hams and ham equipment spotted in the pix.


Of course.


http://www.doitsports.com/volunteer/info.tcl?job_id=488

(sign up for radio operators - only licensed hams need apply)

Really? I thunk all you needed was a cell phone and the ability to say
"can you hear me now?....how about now? 8^)


That's what some "professionals" would have us believe...


Any conclusion is possible given insufficient......... oh wait, I
already said that, didn't I?

http://www.cert-la.com/

(scroll down a bit to where it says "ham radio operators wanted")

Do you think maybe they put that in as an affirmative action sort of
thing? Maybe they just wanted to get the Hams to shut their yap's? ;^)


Naw, it's simpler than that.

Besides their considerable skills and experience, ham volunteers at
events like the LA Marathon provide their own equipment and usually
their own transportation and other support. Try hiring 200
"communications professionals" for a day just to supply radio
communications and see what happens to the race entry fee. (LA says
200 hams, NYC marathon says 400, but of course NYC is a lot bigger
race).


The price for professional radio operators would be from 80 to 160
thousand dollars for an 8 hour day, according to my BOE scribbling.


- Mike KB3EIA -

In article ,
(N2EY) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article , Alun
writes:

Then outside the disaster arena, there's all the marathons,
walk-a-thons, bike-a-thons and myriad other public events for which
hams routinely provide communications. Our club supports 4 or 5 of
these per year.

Those are good practice.


By the way, the Los Angeles Marathon was a success on Sunday,
record turn-out, everything run just fine.

What was your finishing time, Len? How were course conditions?

It can be done very well
without any amateur radio help

How do you know?

1. By reading about it in a respected newspaper.

2. By viewing it on broadcast television.

3. By knowing some details about it from one of its officials.

Ever work at a race?

Not in a foot race.

Why is that important to the "Economy, Stupid?"

LA and other major marathons have been using amateur radio operators
for race communications for years.

If you insist...and you WILL insist. You are a Believer.

Have you ever been IN Los Angeles?

Have you ever worked IN any volunteer function here?

YOU have NO relationship with the city of Los Angeles. I live here.
You don't.

Reality check: ANY marathon foot race can be done with available
non-amateur radio communications readily available in any large
urban area. The first Olympic marathon event was done without any
amateur radio "help." Several Games after that had NO amateur
radio "help" and also succeeded.

Maybe you didn't see the hams, so you just assume they are not there
and play no role. That's simply Not True.

I don't care one way or another about "ham radio help in marathons."

I know a marathon can be run WITHOUT amateur radio help. That's
been done many times.

You keep insisting amateur radio MUST be there...and that's simply
Not True.

Now go do some DX or gab expertly about The Economy, Kosher
Food, or choo-choo trains. Don't they need "ham radio help?"

LHA / WMD

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article ,
(N2EY) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article , Alun
writes:

Then outside the disaster arena, there's all the marathons,
walk-a-thons, bike-a-thons and myriad other public events for which
hams routinely provide communications. Our club supports 4 or 5 of
these per year.

Those are good practice.


By the way, the Los Angeles Marathon was a success on Sunday,
record turn-out, everything run just fine.

What was your finishing time, Len? How were course conditions?

It can be done very well
without any amateur radio help

How do you know?

1. By reading about it in a respected newspaper.

Grit? USA Today, the newspaper for those who haven't the time for CNN's
in-depth coverage?

2. By viewing it on broadcast television.

You strike me as the kind of guy who has time for lots of things, like
watching an entire marathon in order to see if amateur radio is involved
or like making numerous lengthy posts to an internet newsgroup which
deals with an activity in which you are not a participant.

3. By knowing some details about it from one of its officials.

One official. Some details. Yep, that makes you an expert on the L.A.
Marathon.

Ever work at a race?

Not in a foot race.

Political race?

Why is that important to the "Economy, Stupid?"

Allow me to jog your memory. Jim responded to your comments. How did
they relate to the "Economy", Stupid?

LA and other major marathons have been using amateur radio operators
for race communications for years.

If you insist...and you WILL insist. You are a Believer.

He didn't insist. He provided you with a way to check out details.

Have you ever been IN Los Angeles?

Have you ever been in Bissau?

Have you ever worked IN any volunteer function here?

Did you ever worked in any capacity in Bissau?

YOU have NO relationship with the city of Los Angeles. I live here.
You don't.

YOU must BE an EXPERT. YOU live THERE so YOU must KNOW everything which
goes on THERE.

Reality check: ANY marathon foot race can be done with available
non-amateur radio communications readily available in any large
urban area. The first Olympic marathon event was done without any
amateur radio "help." Several Games after that had NO amateur
radio "help" and also succeeded.

That's nice. You were provided links to information which seems to
disprove your earlier statements. Your "first Olympic marathon" tap
dance isn't going to get you on "American Idol".

Maybe you didn't see the hams, so you just assume they are not there
and play no role. That's simply Not True.

I don't care one way or another about "ham radio help in marathons."

That's odd. You certainly seemed to care when you decided to take
another shot at amateur radio by bringing up the topic.

I know a marathon can be run WITHOUT amateur radio help. That's
been done many times.

A marathon. You brought up the Los Angeles Marathon. Run without
amateur radio help? Those links provided by Jim seem to disprove your
claims, kindly old gent.

You keep insisting amateur radio MUST be there...and that's simply
Not True.

What's not true is that amateur radio wasn't there. Look at the links.

Now go do some DX or gab expertly about The Economy, Kosher
Food, or choo-choo trains. Don't they need "ham radio help?"

Why, Len? Are you a ham?

Dave K8MN

In article , Dave Heil
writes:

In article ,
(N2EY) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article , Alun
writes:

Then outside the disaster arena, there's all the marathons,
walk-a-thons, bike-a-thons and myriad other public events for which
hams routinely provide communications. Our club supports 4 or 5 of
these per year.

Those are good practice.

By the way, the Los Angeles Marathon was a success on Sunday,
record turn-out, everything run just fine.

What was your finishing time, Len? How were course conditions?

Go back to your usual participatory rantings. No one has to be IN
a race in order to WATCH it. None of the officials who run it have to
be IN the race in order to administer it.

Have you understood that yet or must you RANT and WHINE some
more about not being IN something?

Did you get a legal surname change? Try not to respond to certain
posts made to others as if they were directed to you. Few care
about your imagined personal affronts.

Go back to sitting in fromt of your orion and get more oriongasms.

LHA / WMD