(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...
In article ,
(N2EY) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article , Alun
writes:

Then outside the disaster arena, there's all the marathons,
walk-a-thons, bike-a-thons and myriad other public events for which
hams routinely provide communications. Our club supports 4 or 5 of
these per year.

Those are good practice.

By the way, the Los Angeles Marathon was a success on Sunday,
record turn-out, everything run just fine.

What was your finishing time, Len? How were course conditions?

Well, Len? You said "everything run just fine".

My marathon PR (personal record) is 3 hours 57 minutes 37 seconds. Of
course that was a long time ago, and I'd need some really serious
training to do another marathon. This morning I ran for 47 minutes,
bringing my weekly total
up to 259 minutes. Nice morning, cool, sun coming up over the town of
Wayne.

What's your marathon PR, Len?

It can be done very well
without any amateur radio help

How do you know?

1. By reading about it in a respected newspaper.

Did they say "the LA Marathon can be run very well without any amateur
radio help"?

2. By viewing it on broadcast television.

Did they say "the LA Marathon can be run very well without any amateur
radio help"?

3. By knowing some details about it from one of its officials.

Did the official say "the LA Marathon can be run very well without any
amateur radio help"?

Or is that statement merely your opinion as an inexperienced observer
of both the LA Marathon and amateur radio?

Ever work at a race?

Not in a foot race.

They're called "road races" by those who do them, Len. "Road" to
distinguish them from track and cross country events. Your use of the
term "foot race" shows your lack of knowledge about them.

Why is that important to the "Economy, Stupid?"

You brought up the LA Marathon, Len, not me.

LA and other major marathons have been using amateur radio operators
for race communications for years.

If you insist...and you WILL insist.

Is it true or not? Los Angeles, New York City, Boston, to name just a
few.

You are a Believer.

I'm simply telling the truth, Len. You brought up the LA Marathon,
Len, not me.

Have you ever been IN Los Angeles?

Sure - several times.

Have you ever run a marathon? Half-marathon? Ten-miler? 10K?
Five-miler? 5K? I've run all of those distances and others.

Have you ever worked IN any volunteer function here?

Not in LA - have you?

Have you ever worked as a volunteer at a road race? Water stop, mile
marker, starting line, finish line, time keeping, set up, take down,
applications, race packets, results, etc.? I've done all of those.

YOU have NO relationship with the city of Los Angeles. I live here.
You don't.

So what? Do you have a relationship the LA marathon, or with running,
other than the commercial media?

You have no relationship with amateur radio other than as an observer
and very verbose critic.

So if it's OK for you to comment on amateur radio, it's OK for me to
comment on the LA Marathon.

btw, I probably have far more experience in marathons, running and
road races than you have in amateur radio.

Reality check: ANY marathon foot race can be done with available
non-amateur radio communications readily available in any large
urban area.

Really? OK, Len, tell us how it could be done. For example, the New
York City Marathon. Tell us how the communications for the NYC
marathon could be done without amateur radio and still have
"everything run just fine".

The first Olympic marathon event was done without any
amateur radio "help."

I know. Some of my distant ancestors originated those Games. They
didn't need any radio at all. They didn't have 20,000 marathoners like
LA did, though.

Several Games after that had NO amateur
radio "help" and also succeeded.

Nobody denies that, Len. What's your point?

The Olympic marathons are relatively small affairs, with relatively
few participants. Maybe 100 runners, all of the elite athletes, over a
course carefully prepared for them. Biggest problems in the Olympic
marathon are spectator control and security.

Nobody is "insisting" that the LA Marathon must have amateur radio
help in order to happen. The fact is, however, that hams *do* help out
there, and at many other major road races.

Maybe you didn't see the hams, so you just assume they are not there
and play no role. That's simply Not True.

I don't care one way or another about "ham radio help in marathons."

Your words here disprove that claim. If you really didn't care, you
would not have brought up the subject.

It's clear that you *do* care, in a negative way. You want to deny
that amateur radio plays *any* significant public service role, even
to the point of denying the facts. You obviously hate amateur radio
and want it to die out. Why is that?

I know a marathon can be run WITHOUT amateur radio help. That's
been done many times.

Nobody denies that, Len. But you wrote:

"By the way, the Los Angeles Marathon was a success on Sunday,
record turn-out, everything run just fine. It can be done very well
without any amateur radio help."

That statement of yours clearly implies that no amateur radio help was
used in the LA Marathon. And that's simply Not True.

You used the cunning stunt of juxtaposition there. But it backfired on
you.

You keep insisting amateur radio MUST be there

No, I don't. I simply point out that it *was* there, performing a
needed function. You weren't there at all.

The LA Marathon organizers specifically asked for amateur radio help.
Not GMRS, not FRS, not cb or cell phones. Not even a bunch of folks
with marine radios on their friends' sailboats. Licensed amateur radio
operators only were requested. For some reason that simple fact really
bothers you, Len.

Did you visit the urls I listed?

...and that's simply Not True.

Was amateur radio a part of the LA Marathon or not, Len?

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...
N2EY wrote:
(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...

In article , Alun
writes:


Then outside the disaster arena, there's all the marathons,
walk-a-thons, bike-a-thons and myriad other public events for which
hams routinely provide communications. Our club supports 4 or 5 of
these per year.

Those are good practice.


By the way, the Los Angeles Marathon was a success on Sunday,
record turn-out, everything run just fine.


What was your finishing time, Len? How were course conditions?


It can be done very well
without any amateur radio help


How do you know? Ever work at a race? I have, in a variety of roles.
LA and other major marathons have been using amateur radio operators
for race communications for years.

A local bike race decided to try using cell phones as an experiment last
year. The hams were along, with the knowledge that we might be
"redundant in the future. They found out:

Every person had to be called separately. When a message had to go to
the whole group, everyone had to be called.

Those who were out of coverage range did not get the messages.

Coverage over the entire course was pretty bad.

Using cell phones was an immediate and complete failure. they realized
this on the first call that had to go to everyone.

They couldn't figure all that out ahead of time?

Sounds to me like the hams were smart enough to simply let them try it
and see the problems first-hand.

Those same problems surfaced in groups searching for wreckage from the
space shuttle disaster last year.

Of course cell phones *do* have uses in those situations. Where one
specific person needs to talk to another specific person, and both are
in the coverage area, they're perfect.

Cell phones work for some things, but the idea that they can replace
radio operators is best advanced by those that don't really know how
that particular job is done.

You mean like folks who comment on marathons without ever having been
involved in one other than as a spectator? Or like folks who comment
on amateur radio without ever having been involved other than as a
spectator?

http://www.lamarathon.com/2004/volunteers.php

Some hams and ham equipment spotted in the pix.

Of course.

http://www.doitsports.com/volunteer/info.tcl?job_id=488

(sign up for radio operators - only licensed hams need apply)

Really? I thunk all you needed was a cell phone and the ability to say
"can you hear me now?....how about now? 8^)

That's what some "professionals" would have us believe...

http://www.cert-la.com/

(scroll down a bit to where it says "ham radio operators wanted")

Do you think maybe they put that in as an affirmative action sort of
thing? Maybe they just wanted to get the Hams to shut their yap's? ;^)

Naw, it's simpler than that.

Besides their considerable skills and experience, ham volunteers at
events like the LA Marathon provide their own equipment and usually
their own transportation and other support. Try hiring 200
"communications professionals" for a day just to supply radio
communications and see what happens to the race entry fee. (LA says
200 hams, NYC marathon says 400, but of course NYC is a lot bigger
race).

but the ARRL copy scribblers would have a cow about that. :-)

"ARRL copy scribblers"? Who are they? You mean folks who write the
facts about what actually happened?

http://www.arrl.org/news/features/2002/02/28/1/?nc=1

Nice write up about the 2002 LA Marathon

Maybe you didn't see the hams, so you just assume they are not there
and play no role. That's simply Not True.

Capitalization noted, Jim. Do some people think that the hams are
suppose to be in the lead vehicle or leading the parade?

Looks like it. But there are some folks who would deny the
participation and contributions of hams no matter what they did.

Heck they are
supposed to be behind the scenes. Go figure.

Of course. It's about the race!

73 de Jim, N2EY

Philadelphia Independence Marathon, 1982 and 1983.

In article , Dave Heil
writes:


Are we to do as you do or do as you say, Leonard?

Not required...but, most readers get the impression that all MUST
do, say, act, and everything else as YOU direct.

Go back to sulking about long-ago perceived personal affronts. That's
your forte'.

LHA / WMD

In article , Dave Heil
writes:

In article ,
(N2EY) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article , Alun
writes:

Then outside the disaster arena, there's all the marathons,
walk-a-thons, bike-a-thons and myriad other public events for which
hams routinely provide communications. Our club supports 4 or 5 of
these per year.

Those are good practice.

By the way, the Los Angeles Marathon was a success on Sunday,
record turn-out, everything run just fine.

What was your finishing time, Len? How were course conditions?

Go back to your usual participatory rantings. No one has to be IN
a race in order to WATCH it. None of the officials who run it have to
be IN the race in order to administer it.

Have you understood that yet or must you RANT and WHINE some
more about not being IN something?

Did you get a legal surname change? Try not to respond to certain
posts made to others as if they were directed to you. Few care
about your imagined personal affronts.

Go back to sitting in fromt of your orion and get more oriongasms.

LHA / WMD

In article ,
(TAFKARJ on a verbal marathon without end) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article ,
(N2EY) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article , Alun
writes:

Then outside the disaster arena, there's all the marathons,
walk-a-thons, bike-a-thons and myriad other public events for which
hams routinely provide communications. Our club supports 4 or 5 of
these per year.

Those are good practice.

By the way, the Los Angeles Marathon was a success on Sunday,
record turn-out, everything run just fine.

What was your finishing time, Len? How were course conditions?

Well, Len? You said "everything run just fine".

Yes. Everything RAN just fine...using the word "ran" (or "run") as in
an adminstrative action or organizing, starting, keeping it going, and
finally take-down.

You are mighty peevish again, perceiving personal insults at the
slightest provocation. Tsk, tsk, tsk...too many endorphins? :-)

My marathon PR (personal record) is 3 hours 57 minutes 37 seconds.

Have you written the Guiness editors yet?

Did you carry along your code key while setting that terrific time?

Work any DX while running your foot race?


What's your marathon PR, Len?

I don't do Public Relations any more, TAFKARJ.

League isn't too swift in that department and can't get good penetration
of the mass media.

Not my problem.

Go file a complaint with the two League presidents.


Consider that Sports CARS are in Road Races...on roads.
Did that once in a sporty '53 Austin Healey two-seater; the
aluminum body was a great ground plane for a short CB
whip 1959 - 1961. Great make-out vehicle. :-)

The L.A. 2004 Marathon was on the STREETS of Los Angeles,
on on any "roads." :-)


Go back to solving the nation's Economic and Social and
Political Problems in this amateur radio policy newsgroup,
TAFKARJ. Your ham license and marathon times and
morsemanship and ivy-fringed degrees are the
"qualifications" for that, are they not? :-)

LHA / WMD

Dave Heil wrote in message ...
Len Over 21 wrote:

Profit is defined as pecuniary compensation for services rendered.

That'd be incorrect. You'd have to deduct expenditures first.

U.S. amateur radio is defined as specifically NOT for pecuniary interest.

No kidding? Are you a radio amateur?

Really? No kidding?

Is that why I said that repeater owners cannot charge for repeater use?

Yep, probably.

In article ,
(Len Over 21) writes:

In article ,
writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article ,
(N2EY) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article , Alun
writes:

Then outside the disaster arena, there's all the marathons,
walk-a-thons, bike-a-thons and myriad other public events for which
hams routinely provide communications. Our club supports 4 or 5 of
these per year.

Those are good practice.

By the way, the Los Angeles Marathon was a success on Sunday,
record turn-out, everything run just fine.

What was your finishing time, Len? How were course conditions?

Well, Len? You said "everything run just fine".

Yes.

What was your finishing time, Len? How were course conditions?

Or were you DNS?

Everything RAN just fine...using the word "ran" (or "run") as in
an adminstrative action or organizing, starting, keeping it going, and
finally take-down.

How do you know?

You are mighty peevish again, perceiving personal insults at the
slightest provocation.

Not me. You're the one shouting and calling names.

My marathon PR (personal record) is 3 hours 57 minutes 37 seconds.

Have you written the Guiness editors yet?

You sound jealous, Len.

What's your marathon PR, Len?

I don't do Public Relations any more,

Good. Your style here indicates you'd be very bad at it.

Consider that Sports CARS are in Road Races...on roads.

They're not allowed in the LA Marathon.

The L.A. 2004 Marathon was on the STREETS of Los Angeles,
on on any "roads." :-)

They're called road races, Len.

As suspected, you were not involved in the LA Marathon in any way except as a
distant spectator. Same as your involvement as in amateur radio.

Well, Len, once more you've lived up to your profile and shown us your purpose
here. As if there was any doubt. Plonk time again.

N2EY wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in message ...

N2EY wrote:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...


In article , Alun
writes:



Then outside the disaster arena, there's all the marathons,
walk-a-thons, bike-a-thons and myriad other public events for which
hams routinely provide communications. Our club supports 4 or 5 of
these per year.

Those are good practice.


By the way, the Los Angeles Marathon was a success on Sunday,
record turn-out, everything run just fine.


What was your finishing time, Len? How were course conditions?



It can be done very well
without any amateur radio help


How do you know? Ever work at a race? I have, in a variety of roles.
LA and other major marathons have been using amateur radio operators
for race communications for years.

A local bike race decided to try using cell phones as an experiment last
year. The hams were along, with the knowledge that we might be
"redundant in the future. They found out:

Every person had to be called separately. When a message had to go to
the whole group, everyone had to be called.

Those who were out of coverage range did not get the messages.

Coverage over the entire course was pretty bad.

Using cell phones was an immediate and complete failure. they realized
this on the first call that had to go to everyone.


They couldn't figure all that out ahead of time?

Amazingly enough, no! Cell phones are seductive little things. After
all you can call around the world, send pictures of whatever, and even
look up your email on the web with them. So how on earth can such a
wonderful instrument *not* be good at running a race? Imagine, each and
every participant with their own little radio, ready for direct contact.

Any conclusion may be reached with insufficient thought!


Sounds to me like the hams were smart enough to simply let them try it
and see the problems first-hand.

Yup. All of us that had done events before just chuckled and waited.
First call for our help came through a couple minutes after the start.

Those same problems surfaced in groups searching for wreckage from the
space shuttle disaster last year.

Of course cell phones *do* have uses in those situations. Where one
specific person needs to talk to another specific person, and both are
in the coverage area, they're perfect.

Sure enough. But when many people need to hear instructions at the same
time, or if the area is large and rural, You need a multi-mode system,
and not just line of site low power stuff.

Cell phones work for some things, but the idea that they can replace
radio operators is best advanced by those that don't really know how
that particular job is done.


You mean like folks who comment on marathons without ever having been
involved in one other than as a spectator? Or like folks who comment
on amateur radio without ever having been involved other than as a
spectator?

Well, when you put it *that* way, yup!



http://www.lamarathon.com/2004/volunteers.php

Some hams and ham equipment spotted in the pix.


Of course.


http://www.doitsports.com/volunteer/info.tcl?job_id=488

(sign up for radio operators - only licensed hams need apply)

Really? I thunk all you needed was a cell phone and the ability to say
"can you hear me now?....how about now? 8^)


That's what some "professionals" would have us believe...


Any conclusion is possible given insufficient......... oh wait, I
already said that, didn't I?

http://www.cert-la.com/

(scroll down a bit to where it says "ham radio operators wanted")

Do you think maybe they put that in as an affirmative action sort of
thing? Maybe they just wanted to get the Hams to shut their yap's? ;^)


Naw, it's simpler than that.

Besides their considerable skills and experience, ham volunteers at
events like the LA Marathon provide their own equipment and usually
their own transportation and other support. Try hiring 200
"communications professionals" for a day just to supply radio
communications and see what happens to the race entry fee. (LA says
200 hams, NYC marathon says 400, but of course NYC is a lot bigger
race).


The price for professional radio operators would be from 80 to 160
thousand dollars for an 8 hour day, according to my BOE scribbling.


- Mike KB3EIA -

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Dave Heil
writes:

Are we to do as you do or do as you say, Leonard?

Not required...but, most readers get the impression that all MUST
do, say, act, and everything else as YOU direct.

I don't believe you. I don't think you've had any input from "most
readers". It is interesting that you responded to a question with two
distinct choices with "Not required". Do you think most readers have
the idea that radio amateurs are supposed to go along with your view of
how amateur radio should be regulated? After all, you have nothing to
do with amateur radio.

Go back to sulking about long-ago perceived personal affronts. That's
your forte'.

I am forte-laden, Leonard. One of mine is that I'm a radio amateur.
You aren't.

Dave K8MN

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Dave Heil
writes:

In article ,
(N2EY) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article , Alun
writes:

Then outside the disaster arena, there's all the marathons,
walk-a-thons, bike-a-thons and myriad other public events for which
hams routinely provide communications. Our club supports 4 or 5 of
these per year.

Those are good practice.

By the way, the Los Angeles Marathon was a success on Sunday,
record turn-out, everything run just fine.

What was your finishing time, Len? How were course conditions?

Go back to your usual participatory rantings. No one has to be IN
a race in order to WATCH it. None of the officials who run it have to
be IN the race in order to administer it.

Have you understood that yet or must you RANT and WHINE some
more about not being IN something?

Did you get a legal surname change? Try not to respond to certain
posts made to others as if they were directed to you. Few care
about your imagined personal affronts.

Uhhhhhh, Len? You seem to be tangled up in your responses. You're
addressing Jim's statement.

Go back to sitting in fromt of your orion and get more oriongasms.

Do you think that "most readers" get the idea that you're busy telling
people what to do?

You can buy an Orion too, Leonard. You can think of it as a very
expensive SWL receiver.

Dave K8MN