N2EY wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in message ...

N2EY wrote:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...


In article , Alun
writes:



Then outside the disaster arena, there's all the marathons,
walk-a-thons, bike-a-thons and myriad other public events for which
hams routinely provide communications. Our club supports 4 or 5 of
these per year.

Those are good practice.


By the way, the Los Angeles Marathon was a success on Sunday,
record turn-out, everything run just fine.


What was your finishing time, Len? How were course conditions?



It can be done very well
without any amateur radio help


How do you know? Ever work at a race? I have, in a variety of roles.
LA and other major marathons have been using amateur radio operators
for race communications for years.

A local bike race decided to try using cell phones as an experiment last
year. The hams were along, with the knowledge that we might be
"redundant in the future. They found out:

Every person had to be called separately. When a message had to go to
the whole group, everyone had to be called.

Those who were out of coverage range did not get the messages.

Coverage over the entire course was pretty bad.

Using cell phones was an immediate and complete failure. they realized
this on the first call that had to go to everyone.


They couldn't figure all that out ahead of time?

Amazingly enough, no! Cell phones are seductive little things. After
all you can call around the world, send pictures of whatever, and even
look up your email on the web with them. So how on earth can such a
wonderful instrument *not* be good at running a race? Imagine, each and
every participant with their own little radio, ready for direct contact.

Any conclusion may be reached with insufficient thought!


Sounds to me like the hams were smart enough to simply let them try it
and see the problems first-hand.

Yup. All of us that had done events before just chuckled and waited.
First call for our help came through a couple minutes after the start.

Those same problems surfaced in groups searching for wreckage from the
space shuttle disaster last year.

Of course cell phones *do* have uses in those situations. Where one
specific person needs to talk to another specific person, and both are
in the coverage area, they're perfect.

Sure enough. But when many people need to hear instructions at the same
time, or if the area is large and rural, You need a multi-mode system,
and not just line of site low power stuff.

Cell phones work for some things, but the idea that they can replace
radio operators is best advanced by those that don't really know how
that particular job is done.


You mean like folks who comment on marathons without ever having been
involved in one other than as a spectator? Or like folks who comment
on amateur radio without ever having been involved other than as a
spectator?

Well, when you put it *that* way, yup!



http://www.lamarathon.com/2004/volunteers.php

Some hams and ham equipment spotted in the pix.


Of course.


http://www.doitsports.com/volunteer/info.tcl?job_id=488

(sign up for radio operators - only licensed hams need apply)

Really? I thunk all you needed was a cell phone and the ability to say
"can you hear me now?....how about now? 8^)


That's what some "professionals" would have us believe...


Any conclusion is possible given insufficient......... oh wait, I
already said that, didn't I?

http://www.cert-la.com/

(scroll down a bit to where it says "ham radio operators wanted")

Do you think maybe they put that in as an affirmative action sort of
thing? Maybe they just wanted to get the Hams to shut their yap's? ;^)


Naw, it's simpler than that.

Besides their considerable skills and experience, ham volunteers at
events like the LA Marathon provide their own equipment and usually
their own transportation and other support. Try hiring 200
"communications professionals" for a day just to supply radio
communications and see what happens to the race entry fee. (LA says
200 hams, NYC marathon says 400, but of course NYC is a lot bigger
race).


The price for professional radio operators would be from 80 to 160
thousand dollars for an 8 hour day, according to my BOE scribbling.


- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

N2EY wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in message
...

A local bike race decided to try using cell phones as an experiment last
year. The hams were along, with the knowledge that we might be
"redundant in the future. They found out:

Every person had to be called separately. When a message had to go to
the whole group, everyone had to be called.

Those who were out of coverage range did not get the messages.

Coverage over the entire course was pretty bad.

Using cell phones was an immediate and complete failure. they realized
this on the first call that had to go to everyone.


They couldn't figure all that out ahead of time?

Amazingly enough, no! Cell phones are seductive little things. After
all you can call around the world, send pictures of whatever, and even
look up your email on the web with them. So how on earth can such a
wonderful instrument *not* be good at running a race? Imagine, each and
every participant with their own little radio, ready for direct contact.

Well, there you have it: They did not understand their communications needs.

Any conclusion may be reached with insufficient thought!

Can I steal that phrase? It's the perfect companion to this one:

"If it happens, it must be possible."

Sounds to me like the hams were smart enough to simply let them try it
and see the problems first-hand.

Yup. All of us that had done events before just chuckled and waited.
First call for our help came through a couple minutes after the start.

Fortunate that you folks were there.

Those same problems surfaced in groups searching for wreckage from the
space shuttle disaster last year.

Of course cell phones *do* have uses in those situations. Where one
specific person needs to talk to another specific person, and both are
in the coverage area, they're perfect.

Sure enough. But when many people need to hear instructions at the same

time, or if the area is large and rural, You need a multi-mode system,
and not just line of site low power stuff.

Seems to me that *both* have a role.

Cell phones work for some things, but the idea that they can replace
radio operators is best advanced by those that don't really know how
that particular job is done.

You mean like folks who comment on marathons without ever having been
involved in one other than as a spectator? Or like folks who comment
on amateur radio without ever having been involved other than as a
spectator?

Well, when you put it *that* way, yup!

We call 'em "sidewalk superintendents" or "armchair athletes".

http://www.lamarathon.com/2004/volunteers.php

Some hams and ham equipment spotted in the pix.

Of course.

http://www.doitsports.com/volunteer/info.tcl?job_id=488

(sign up for radio operators - only licensed hams need apply)

Really? I thunk all you needed was a cell phone and the ability to say
"can you hear me now?....how about now? 8^)

That's what some "professionals" would have us believe...

Any conclusion is possible given insufficient......... oh wait, I
already said that, didn't I?

Bears repeating.

http://www.cert-la.com/

(scroll down a bit to where it says "ham radio operators wanted")

Do you think maybe they put that in as an affirmative action sort of
thing? Maybe they just wanted to get the Hams to shut their yap's? ;^)

Naw, it's simpler than that.

Besides their considerable skills and experience, ham volunteers at
events like the LA Marathon provide their own equipment and usually
their own transportation and other support. Try hiring 200
"communications professionals" for a day just to supply radio
communications and see what happens to the race entry fee. (LA says
200 hams, NYC marathon says 400, but of course NYC is a lot bigger
race).

The price for professional radio operators would be from 80 to 160
thousand dollars for an 8 hour day, according to my BOE scribbling.

Marathon day is a lot longer than 8 hours. Figure that the staff is on the
course at least two hours before the starting gun, and that the slowest
particiapnts will finish in more than 5-6 hours, plus awards ceremony, cleanup,
etc., and it's not an 8 hour day for anybody. With 20,000 participants, that's
4 to 8 dollars tacked on to the entry fee.

Which reminds me...time to put the running shoes on..

73 de Jim, N2EY

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

The price for professional radio operators would be from 80 to 160
thousand dollars for an 8 hour day, according to my BOE scribbling.

Marathon day is a lot longer than 8 hours. Figure that the staff is on the
course at least two hours before the starting gun, and that the slowest
particiapnts will finish in more than 5-6 hours, plus awards ceremony,
cleanup,
etc., and it's not an 8 hour day for anybody. With 20,000 participants,
that's
4 to 8 dollars tacked on to the entry fee.

Which reminds me...time to put the running shoes on..

73 de Jim, N2EY

You left out another block of time. For a large event, there needs to be a
planning/coordination meeting in advance of the marathon that the
communications staff would need to attend. Paid operators won't attend that
for free either.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

In article m, "Dee D. Flint"
writes:

Marathon day is a lot longer than 8 hours. Figure that the staff is on the
course at least two hours before the starting gun, and that the slowest
particiapnts will finish in more than 5-6 hours, plus awards ceremony,
cleanup,
etc., and it's not an 8 hour day for anybody. With 20,000 participants,
that's
4 to 8 dollars tacked on to the entry fee.

Which reminds me...time to put the running shoes on..

42 minutes this morning - spring is coming..

You left out another block of time. For a large event, there needs to be a
planning/coordination meeting in advance of the marathon that the
communications staff would need to attend. Paid operators won't attend that
for free either.

That's absolutely correct! And it's probably a series of meetings and
coordination settings, too.

Thanks, Dee.

73 de Jim, N2EY

In article m, "Dee D. Flint"
writes:

You left out another block of time. For a large event, there needs to be a
planning/coordination meeting in advance of the marathon that the
communications staff would need to attend. Paid operators won't attend that
for free either.

Were the very first marathons, especially in the Olympic Games,
run by professionals?

The Los Angeles 2004 Marathon used LAPD and LAFD personnel
who are paid all the time. Do they count in your analysis?

Are marathon rules and regulations in Part 97, Title 47 C.F.R.?

Do marathoners and marathon staff need to learn morse code in
order to make the event a success?

LHA / WMD

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article m, "Dee D. Flint"
writes:

You left out another block of time. For a large event, there needs to be a
planning/coordination meeting in advance of the marathon that the
communications staff would need to attend. Paid operators won't attend that
for free either.

Were the very first marathons, especially in the Olympic Games,
run by professionals?

The Los Angeles 2004 Marathon used LAPD and LAFD personnel
who are paid all the time. Do they count in your analysis?

Are marathon rules and regulations in Part 97, Title 47 C.F.R.?

Do marathoners and marathon staff need to learn morse code in
order to make the event a success?

Skip the shuck and jive routine, Len. You seem to forget that you told
us that amateur radio wasn't involved in the L.A. Marathon. Fact has
never dissueded you from promoting your view as gospel.

Dave K8MN

N2EY wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:


N2EY wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote in message

...


A local bike race decided to try using cell phones as an experiment last
year. The hams were along, with the knowledge that we might be
"redundant in the future. They found out:

Every person had to be called separately. When a message had to go to
the whole group, everyone had to be called.

Those who were out of coverage range did not get the messages.

Coverage over the entire course was pretty bad.

Using cell phones was an immediate and complete failure. they realized
this on the first call that had to go to everyone.


They couldn't figure all that out ahead of time?

Amazingly enough, no! Cell phones are seductive little things. After
all you can call around the world, send pictures of whatever, and even
look up your email on the web with them. So how on earth can such a
wonderful instrument *not* be good at running a race? Imagine, each and
every participant with their own little radio, ready for direct contact.


Well, there you have it: They did not understand their communications needs.

Any conclusion may be reached with insufficient thought!


Can I steal that phrase? It's the perfect companion to this one:

Certainly! I kid of thought you would like that one.

"If it happens, it must be possible."

Sounds to me like the hams were smart enough to simply let them try it
and see the problems first-hand.

Yup. All of us that had done events before just chuckled and waited.
First call for our help came through a couple minutes after the start.


Fortunate that you folks were there.

A young lady that fell and got a pavement rash certainly thought so. We
got there first aid, a repair truck, and back in the race. Year before
that, a fellow had a collision with a rear view mirror on a car and
messed his hand up.

Those same problems surfaced in groups searching for wreckage from the
space shuttle disaster last year.

Of course cell phones *do* have uses in those situations. Where one
specific person needs to talk to another specific person, and both are
in the coverage area, they're perfect.

Sure enough. But when many people need to hear instructions at the same


time, or if the area is large and rural, You need a multi-mode system,
and not just line of site low power stuff.


Seems to me that *both* have a role.

Cell phones work for some things, but the idea that they can replace
radio operators is best advanced by those that don't really know how
that particular job is done.

You mean like folks who comment on marathons without ever having been
involved in one other than as a spectator? Or like folks who comment
on amateur radio without ever having been involved other than as a
spectator?

Well, when you put it *that* way, yup!


We call 'em "sidewalk superintendents" or "armchair athletes".

http://www.lamarathon.com/2004/volunteers.php

Some hams and ham equipment spotted in the pix.



Of course.



http://www.doitsports.com/volunteer/info.tcl?job_id=488


(sign up for radio operators - only licensed hams need apply)

Really? I thunk all you needed was a cell phone and the ability to say
"can you hear me now?....how about now? 8^)



That's what some "professionals" would have us believe...


Any conclusion is possible given insufficient......... oh wait, I
already said that, didn't I?


Bears repeating.

http://www.cert-la.com/

(scroll down a bit to where it says "ham radio operators wanted")

Do you think maybe they put that in as an affirmative action sort of
thing? Maybe they just wanted to get the Hams to shut their yap's? ;^)

Naw, it's simpler than that.

Besides their considerable skills and experience, ham volunteers at
events like the LA Marathon provide their own equipment and usually
their own transportation and other support. Try hiring 200
"communications professionals" for a day just to supply radio
communications and see what happens to the race entry fee. (LA says
200 hams, NYC marathon says 400, but of course NYC is a lot bigger
race).


The price for professional radio operators would be from 80 to 160
thousand dollars for an 8 hour day, according to my BOE scribbling.


Marathon day is a lot longer than 8 hours. Figure that the staff is on the
course at least two hours before the starting gun, and that the slowest
particiapnts will finish in more than 5-6 hours, plus awards ceremony, cleanup,
etc., and it's not an 8 hour day for anybody. With 20,000 participants, that's
4 to 8 dollars tacked on to the entry fee.

Of course. I just used the 8 hours as a real back of the envelope
thing. You can tie up a lot of time between assignment, training and
other meetings. And if you are using professionals they will need paid.

- Mike KB3EIA -

- Mike KB3EIA -



Which reminds me...time to put the running shoes on..

73 de Jim, N2EY

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Fortunate that you folks were there.

A young lady that fell and got a pavement rash certainly thought so. We

got there first aid, a repair truck, and back in the race. Year before
that, a fellow had a collision with a rear view mirror on a car and
messed his hand up.

And while maybe it *could* have been done by "professionals", the fact is that
it *was* done by amateurs.

Some folks get all bent out of shape by such plain, simple facts.


Marathon day is a lot longer than 8 hours. Figure that the staff is on the
course at least two hours before the starting gun, and that the slowest
particiapnts will finish in more than 5-6 hours, plus awards ceremony,
cleanup,
etc., and it's not an 8 hour day for anybody. With 20,000 participants,
that's 4 to 8 dollars tacked on to the entry fee.

Of course. I just used the 8 hours as a real back of the envelope
thing. You can tie up a lot of time between assignment, training and
other meetings.

As Dee pointed out.

73 de Jim, N2EY

N2EY wrote:
In article , Mike Coslo
writes:


Fortunate that you folks were there.

A young lady that fell and got a pavement rash certainly thought so. We


got there first aid, a repair truck, and back in the race. Year before
that, a fellow had a collision with a rear view mirror on a car and
messed his hand up.


And while maybe it *could* have been done by "professionals", the fact is that
it *was* done by amateurs.

Some folks get all bent out of shape by such plain, simple facts.

Whatever else can be said about hams, in general, they provide
inexpensive and reliable support for public events in which they give
free time to support charities or other nonprofit groups. Not possible
to dispute.

That some people have a problem with that is a bigger statement about
those people than it is about Hams.

- Mike KB3EIA -

N2EY wrote:
In article , Mike Coslo
writes:


N2EY wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote in message

...


A local bike race decided to try using cell phones as an experiment last
year. The hams were along, with the knowledge that we might be
"redundant in the future. They found out:

Every person had to be called separately. When a message had to go to
the whole group, everyone had to be called.

Those who were out of coverage range did not get the messages.

Coverage over the entire course was pretty bad.

Using cell phones was an immediate and complete failure. they realized
this on the first call that had to go to everyone.


They couldn't figure all that out ahead of time?

Amazingly enough, no! Cell phones are seductive little things. After
all you can call around the world, send pictures of whatever, and even
look up your email on the web with them. So how on earth can such a
wonderful instrument *not* be good at running a race? Imagine, each and
every participant with their own little radio, ready for direct contact.


Well, there you have it: They did not understand their communications needs.

And they really don't have to. Problem is that so many people think
that they are "high-tech" when they use a cell phone or surf the web,
when in truth, they don't know one thing about what they are doing. Ask
the average person about how a cell phone works, or how that computer
works, and odds are they will draw a blank.

That's okay, as knowledge isn't mandated, but if they try to put
together a comm support network with the level of knowledge that they
*do* have, they are more likely than not to suffer failure. In other
words, they are reaching a conclusion with insufficient thought. My
thoughts are to learn to do it correctly, or allow someone that *does*
know to do their job.




- Mike KB3EIA -