Phil Kane wrote:

On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 14:06:00 -0700, JJ wrote:


Steve Robeson, K4CAP wrote:



All phones I saw in the EOC, othr than the aforementioned
"cordless" phones were hardline.

Must come as quite a shock to lennyboy and willie, especially since
Amateur Radio seems to occupy a prominent place.


'specially since in all the command post exercises that our area
hospitals have run in the last few years both landline and regular
commercial radio circuits are turned off for at least an hour and
ham rado - voice, packet, and SSTV - carried the load.

Very successfully, may I add.

There now you go, upsetting all the anti-ham crowd who can't manage to
get a license, so the best they can do is attempt to discredit what they
can't be a part of.

"Len Over 21" wrote in message
...

Well, next time that happens, send me an aid request via NTS.
I'll put together a CARE package for you with an extra can of
Sterno so you won't be too cold. Ought to arrive in two months;
takes 7 weeks to get the NTS message through...allow for
sufficient time.

Baaaaaaaaa Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!!

Even Glen "Bull****ter" Baxter's IARN is faster than NTS.

Send in those IARN jump teams boys! -and while your
at it, we have this new Membership premium for
just $49.95....and if you act now, we'll throw in a
bamboo steamer too as our free gift to U !

In article ,
(William) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) writes:

YOU made the assertion that "unlicensed services play a "major"
role in emergency comms".

Brian did not use those words.

I've asked you three or four times now to substantiate your
claims. YOUR claims, Brain...cited word-for-word, repeated by you
several times.

You've demanded, taken things out of context, edited words
to suit your "charges."

You "respond" by telling me I am rude and obnoxious.

You are.

and emotionally unbalanced.

That's unfortunate. All of the "communications" in this newsgroup
have become a battleground of personal egos of the regulars. Many
come unglued at the slightest hint of disagreement with their
postings.

Any time an actual subject of "amateur radio policy" comes up, the
ones with personal opinions MUST be taken as the ultimate truth
of the matter. Anyone with different ideas are damned and persons
insulted for not agreeing with them. It's a constant verbal firefight
with large depots of outrage ammunition fired at will (and any other
name). Then they become oh-so-badly "wounded" when subjected
to return fire. Some remain "wounded" for years and constantly
butt in to seek retribution. The subjects are long lost in the mis-
direction of satisfying their personal vengence.

It sure as heck is no recruiting station for support or growth of
amateur radio. Maybe for the WWF? :-)

LHA / WMD

In article ,
(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article , "Jim Hampton"
writes:

Hello, Steve

I think I have figured out the real problem behind most of the flames both
in this group and rec.radio.cb. I might be wrong, but it appears everyone
is trying to defend that their particular turf is "important" and someone
else's is not.

...more likely just defending their own pesonna, but why spoil your
nice rant?

Now Lennie get's to tell us how Jim's comments, otehr than not
being approved by him, are a "rant"...

Fast-forward to today. Cell phones are likely the primary means of
reporting those accidents. Who needs the hams? Some hams will say "who
needs cb?"

A lot of folks state that amateur radio isn't a service; it's just a
hobby.

Amateurs are all there to SERVE as "emergency minutemen!"

Right.

Lennie the Loser is trying to argue a point Jim's making that
actually echoes some of HIS sentiments...

How perculiar.

Perambulate your personal perspective, but don't pester us
particularly with poorly percolated petty pesterings promoted as
a perspicatious presentation when it is really perseverance of
persiflage. Ptui.

"Perculiar" indeed. :-)

Few take into account how fragile that infrastructure of cell phones,
telephones, and internet can be when a large area is affected.

Riiight...on 11 Sep 01 the entire borough of Manhattan went down
after the Attack on the WTC towers...?

Ham radio was Johnny-on-the-spot immediately notifying all?

Lennie...Jim said "the infrastructure is ftagile".

It's already been proven as just that.

Can YOU "prove" otherwise, other than making snide or insinuating
personal swipes at the folks commementing here...!??!

I already have, re the 11 Sep 01 Attack on America, in specific the
partial destruction of both the Manhattan Emergency Communication
Center and part of the telephone trunk lines adjacent to the WTC
towers. Regardless, the entire telephone system (cellular telephone
included) of the borough of Manhattan was NOT shut down.

At the Pentagon in Washington, DC, the third hijacked aircraft crash
did not disrupt any cellular telephone system in DC. The crash did
inflict great damage to one-fifth of the Pentagon along with much
loss of life, but the architecture of the Pentagon is low relative to the
WTC towers and personal escape routes are much shorter for near-
crash-site inhabitants. The Pentagon's internal fire and damage
control network (installed the year before) worked well from a planned
alternate control point to shut off utilities and thus restrain any further
spread of fire damage. Such a system was not possible in the WTC
towers when the entire structure was put at overstress.

All of the above information has been widely published in the popular
press. So too are general informations about the telephone infra-
structure with associated cellular telephone service -

Telephone circuits for conventional subscription service route through
switch centers. Switch centers permit a subscriber to "dial" direct
to any other telephone; several centers are involved in "dialings" out-
side of area codes or to other countries. Switching is limited by
economic factors to a fraction of the maximum possible subscriber
base, somewhere just less than ten percent for older, obsolete
electromechanical switching; maximum may be larger in ESS or
Electronic Switching System central offices. Ergo, all subscribers
cannot be on-line at the same time; switch centers refuse to accept
off-hook (handset lifted or cell phone On/Talk) subscribers on
exceedance of maximum numbers. Reaching exceedance of
maximums does not cause an ESS to fail; normal operation returns
automatically when fewer subscribers access the system. Telephone
central offices have had emergency electrical power facilities since
before WW2 in the USA; such emergency power is not limitless in
operating time and is, like switch traffic capacity, governed by
economics in normal operation.

In the old "Bell System" monopoly (a most generous one despite the
complaints and government actions for so long), the technical
excellence and robustness of the U.S. telephone infrastructure was
exceptional - and known worldwide. Cellular sites for the cellular
telephone service are themselves small extensions of each central
office complex. Running (usually) unattended, they also have
emergency electrical power backup. Again, like the central office,
such emergency electrical power capacity and life is limited by
economic factors of normal use. As Phil Kane pointed out, the
deregulation of the U.S. telephone system resulted in several local
telephone companies downgrading capacity and service of certain
types of emergency power, particularly at cell sites. Cellular
telephone service arrived after the big telephone deregulation so
there is no example of comparison as to what it might have been
had the old Bell System remained a virtual monopoly.

NO structure is immune to physical damage whether from fire or
ice-accumulation or collision. That includes both governmental
structures as well as individual amateur radio station locations.
In general, the government structures are designed to be more
robust than residences so, on the whole, they can withstand more
environmental abuse. In the old Bell System, most equipment,
including overhead cables was designed, made, and installed for
a minimum working life of two decades. Some things for longer.
Such telephone life expectancy has been proven in-use several
times over. This does not apply to subscriber terminal equipment
which can be (optionally after deregulation) of consumer
electronics quality. However, the state of the art of solid-state
electronic devices has increased the mean time between failure
rates of complex consumer electronics devices...it is no longer
possible to judge electronics devices' life merely by physical
appearance to the naked eye.

Cell sites service areas are located and designed to overlap
adjacent cells. The amount of overlap depends on decisions in
intial location plus uncontrollable changes in structures and,
sometimes, rarely, in earth moving within a service area.
Cellular service is not guaranteed to be perfect as in wireline
telephony but it is quite good considering the frequency (1 GHz)
and quite low power of a cell handset. Those handsets are
basically little two-way radios. Just the same, their usefulness
in normal life has been proven to the extent that more than
100 million cellular service subscriptions had been taken out
by users in 2003 according to the Census Bureau's interim
report of early 2004. That is approximately one cell phone per
every three citizens.

Depending on a particular telephone company, cell sites can
be arranged to automatically change over to link with a different
central office or to connect with their main through microwave
radio relay (some are linked only by microwave). There is no
set rule on that and it is dependent on the local telephone
company. As it is, they are quite reliable, almost to the extent
of the wireline POTS (Plain Old Telephone System). Reliability
of cell handsets is left up to individual subscribers.

All in all, the amazing growth of cellular telephony in the last
quarter century is phenomenal, especially considering the
operating frequency (low L-Band) and the cost reduction,
typically below that of an amateur average HT. It is not a
perfect solution to emergency communications but it is used
daily throughout the USA for many and varied small
emergencies. To discount it or sneer at its usefulness is folly.

Was anyone knocking the state of New York? (or New Yourk?)

I don't think so.

You have. You've "knocked" everything west of the Owens Valley.

No. I've tried to point out that the population of the United States
also exists in the western states. The center of population has
been steadily moving westward since 1790 (then somewhere in
Maryland) and in 1990 was located 9.7 miles NW of Steelville,
Missouri (source: U.S. Census Bureau). That point is west of the
Mississippi river.

I tend to promote California, yes, for several reasons: It is the
most populous state of the Union as well as being in the top 10
for land area (size is 9/10ths that of Sweden and full auto trip
north-south takes two 7-hour driving days to complete); this
state has an operating budget larger than many foreign
countries and is dynamic in commerce and trade as the main
U.S. gateway to Asia for that; the major aircraft and solid-state
electronics corporations started here and most prospered (see
Lockheed, North American, Ryan, Douglas, Vultee, Northrup
complexes here plus the "Silicon Valley" and Hewlett-Packard
and Intel for electronics).

You wouldn't help your wife by passing in a roll of toilet paper,
Lennie.

Putz.

Is being insulting, rude, obnoxious, and resorting to toilet humor
considerd "civil amateur behavior?" Certainly not, yet you seem
to do nothing else in here.

LHA / WMD

PAMNO (N2EY) wrote in message ...
In article ,
(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) writes:

Leonard H. Anderson is his own worst enemy...His foul mouth and
his arrogant, "I Know Better Than You" personality
more-than-adequately demonstrate the true nature of his "character".

Then why bother with him, Steve?

TAFKARJ approves of Ranting Steve.

Now...I wonder why Brian Burke can't/won't answer the core
question of this thread, that being where's his validation of his
assertion that "licenseless services" play a "major role" (his choice
of adjectives, not mine...) in "emergency comms".

Isn't it obvious? In the case you cite, "won't" means "can't".

Is that like, "I can't edit Kim's posts," or "I won't edit Kim's
posts."

Why bother with him, Steve?

You know the nature of the responses you will receive, so why spend the time on
folks who are not at all serious about amateur radio, or related policy issues?

I'm quite serious ambout amateur radio.

Their hobby is wasting time. Your time.

No. Steve's hobby is wasting time.

If you're interested in amateur radio policy matters, there's the BPL NPRM to
comment on,

As Len has reminded you.

plus three restructuring petitions (FAR, ARRL, NCVEC) that will
probably get RM numbers soon.

As Len has reminded you.

So happy you're paying attention.

So unhappy that you approve of Steve's rantings. But that appears to
be the direction you've been heading lately - extreme.

(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) wrote in message . com...
(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...
In article , "Jim Hampton"
writes:

Hello, Steve

I think I have figured out the real problem behind most of the flames both
in this group and rec.radio.cb. I might be wrong, but it appears everyone
is trying to defend that their particular turf is "important" and someone
else's is not.

...more likely just defending their own pesonna, but why spoil your
nice rant?

Now Lennie get's to tell us how Jim's comments, otehr

1

than not
being approved by him, are a "rant"...

Fast-forward to today. Cell phones are likely the primary means of
reporting those accidents. Who needs the hams? Some hams will say "who
needs cb?"

A lot of folks state that amateur radio isn't a service; it's just a hobby.

Amateurs are all there to SERVE as "emergency minutemen!"

Right.

Lennie the Loser is trying to argue a point Jim's making that
actually echoes some of HIS sentiments...

How perculiar.

2

Few take into account how fragile that infrastructure of cell phones,
telephones, and internet can be when a large area is affected.

Riiight...on 11 Sep 01 the entire borough of Manhattan went down
after the Attack on the WTC towers...?

Ham radio was Johnny-on-the-spot immediately notifying all?

Lennie...Jim said "the infrastructure is ftagile".

3

It's already been proven as just that.

Can YOU "prove" otherwise, other than making snide or insinuating
personal swipes at the folks commementing here...!??!

That nasty
ice storm in the North East (was it 1997?) affected areas for hundreds of
miles. There were no cell phones as the cell phone towers went silent after
power had been out for days. No electricty, no heat, no telephones for
hundreds of miles. A relative of mine in Gouverneur, NY, had no heat,
power, or telephone for two *weeks*!!!

Upstate New York is YOUR "turf," right?

Was anyone knocking the state of New York? (or New Yourk?)

I don't think so.

You have. You've "knocked" everything west of the Owens Valley.

One amateur repeater was pressed into service for the police. I do not know
if the repeater was reprogrammed or they simply moved the police repeater to
the amateur site. The amateur site withstood the ice and they had generator
backup with a *lot* of fuel available.

Did the nasty police engineer get fired because he didn't specify
emergency power for the "police repeater?"

Does it matter?

Does it change the fact that the incident happened and that it as
documented in the media, Lennie?

4

I don't think it is as important "how" something is done as opposed to the
fact that it gets done. If someone is assisting at a shelter cooking meals,
that individual is *doing* something. That, to me, is more important than
all of the useless crying that goes on around these parts from time to time

Right...I'm going to need a ham license in order to volunteer serving
at homeless shelters? They do serve ham. Quite good, tastes like
chicken...wonder who it was?

Where did Jim make such a statement, Lennie?

BTW, during that ice storm, the calls were going out for batteries,
flashlights, generators, blankets, food, coffee, and mobile amateur
operators with HF capabilities. If you have nothing working for well over
100 miles in the N.E. U.S. and Canada, you will likely not get it done on
VHF/UHF or cb.

Did New York state close down all its National Guard units? Air
Guard? Political disagreement between NY Governor and the
White House? Was FEMA on vacation? No aid available for NY
state? Terrible situation!

Well, next time that happens, send me an aid request via NTS.
I'll put together a CARE package for you with an extra can of
Sterno so you won't be too cold. Ought to arrive in two months;
takes 7 weeks to get the NTS message through...allow for
sufficient time.

Anything to help.

You wouldn't help your wife by passing in a roll of toilet paper,
Lennie.

Putz.

Steve, K4YZ

In article , "Phil Kane"
writes:

All phones I saw in the EOC, othr than the aforementioned
"cordless" phones were hardline.

Must come as quite a shock to lennyboy and willie, especially since
Amateur Radio seems to occupy a prominent place.

'specially since in all the command post exercises that our area
hospitals have run in the last few years both landline and regular
commercial radio circuits are turned off for at least an hour and
ham rado - voice, packet, and SSTV - carried the load.

Very successfully, may I add.

Good for your area! At least that was a practical test with results,
not some pointing-finger posturing.

LHA / WMD

In article , "Phil Kane"
writes:

On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 14:04:25 -0700, JJ wrote:

Len Over 21 wrote:

My home is quite restful, thank you. My wife likes it, too. But,
it is not a "resthome"...2000 square feet, 1/3 acre, worth at
least $350K on the market.

If that's all you can get for $350k no wonder you are in such a snit all
the time.

In that part of L.A. one is lucky to get a two-hole outhouse for
$350K.

More toilet humor, Phil? :-)

Where do you think "this part of L.A." actually is? It is far from
Brentwood or Beverly Hills. Try Zip code 91352.

So, while your attention is here, why does the FCC have TWO
docket places for NPRM 04-29...04-29 and 04-37? How come
the comments on 03-104 have Sunshine notices only for the
period 6 Feb through 20 Feb. All the FCC feeds me is boiler-
plate Q&A files. Maybe you can shed some light on that?

LHA / WMD

In article , PAMNO
(N2EY) writes:

Sure. And such behavior is not limited to 5 year olds, either.

Giving such behavior adult attention reeards it, and the result will be more
of
the same. That's true whether the behavior is by a 5 year old or someone 14.2
times 5 years old.

Poor baby. Someone got you in a spiteful state, did they? :-)

Did you get your just "reeards?"

LHA / WMD

N2EY wrote:
In article , "Jim Hampton"
writes:


If you go back into the 50s and 60s, amateur radio served quite well for
long-haul phone patches and in emergencies.


Service in emergencies goes back much farther, of course.


Very localized emergencies,
such as an auto accident would largely be reported by normal telephone.


Also by hams equipped with mobile rigs if telephone was not immediately
available.. This is documented all the way back to the beginning of mobile
operation by hams. Of course, the number of mobile-equipped hams limited the
chances that there would be a ham in the area when such a localized emergency
happened.


In
the 70s, the cb craze took hold and certainly I would expect that cb was
sometimes used to report the accidents. The small number of amateurs would
preclude them being involved very often in such a situation.


I disagree on that last point. That same time period was the boom time for
amateur repeaters and autopatching. At least in the areas I'm familiar with,
such service by hams was very common.


Voilla, cb is
more important than ham radio.


Certainly more numerous in those times. Questionable today, though.


Fast-forward to today. Cell phones are likely the primary means of
reporting those accidents. Who needs the hams? Some hams will say "who
needs cb?"


As long as the cell phones are avaialble, they are obviously the preferred
method because anyone so equipped can push 911 and report directly.

I think this may be the confusion here also. A cell phone is great for
localized small-scale problems. If everyone has one, then of course they
will be great for calling 911. An accident happens and likely the next
person ther will have a cell phone. One of the best reasons for having
one of the otherwise evil little devices.

As the scale of problems gets bigger, then they become of less use,
their usefulness being inversely proportional to the scale of the problem.

Eventually, the cellular concept falls apart because of the massive
support structure needed for the instruments use, and that often the
same disasters that make emergency comms necessary take out that
infrastucture.

I recall the pictures from the wildfires in San Diego last year showing
people trying to use their cell phones without success. The look on many
faces was one of surprise that the things weren't working.

- Mike KB3EIA -