In article , Leo
writes:

The FACTS are that MARS needs those civilian operators to make the
program work.

Actually, no. :-) See the Army Communicator write-up on "Grecian
Firebolt 2002" at -

www.gordon.army.mil/AC/Wntr02/MARS.htm

Army Communicator is the Signal Center's quarterly magazine,
distributed only to Signal Corps folks but archives are open to the
public on the 'net.

For interest's sake, I did a bit of research on the Web, and found the
following information on the home page for the US Military Alliliate
Radio System:

http://www.asc.army.mil/mars/default.htm

That one is maintained at Fort Huachuca, AZ, the NETCOM Hq
for MARS for the U.S. Army. For the other branches -

http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/c...98/d46502p.pdf

for the current (21 Nov 03) issue of Directive 4650.2 from DoD, PDF
version. That Directive spells it out for all U.S. military branches.

http://public.afca.af.mil/LIBRARY/MARS.HTM

for the Scott AFB USAF Communications Agency Hq.

http://www.navymars.org/ for USN-USMC

There's a bunch more, such as a brief mention on the bottom half of
page 128 of "Vietnam studies Communications-Electronics 1962-1970"
monograph by Major General Rienzi at the U.S. Army Center For
Military History (CMH). That shows a photo of an AN/FRC-93 in use
in Vietnam, making a phone patch back to the states. Rienzi says
that 42,000 phone patches a month were being done by MARS
stations in Vietnam at the close of that period. That's an excellent
record and something to be proud of, but it was also over 30 years
ago when the U.S. had about a third of a million military serving in
southeast Asia.

Closer to date, Grecian Firebolt 2002 was an exercise of 600 MARS
stations (all branches of the military) simulating a terrorist attack on
the USA. That is reported to have gone off well in liason with several
civilian emergency services. [Army Communicator issue cited] The
article doesn't specify that civilians were involved although it
mentioned several Guard units (National and Air, not independent
state "guard" units).

The quick timeline of MARS -

1925 AARS or Army Amateur Radio Service organized, small, Army
only, never more than 5600 up to 7 Dec 41.
1941-1946 pause for WW2.
1946 AARS resumes operation.
1948 Reorganization, includes new separate AF, renamed MARS.
1962 USN-USMC joins MARS, all military branches now in MARS.

In the overall U.S. military picture, MARS was never a significant
communications service. It was, in the '65 to '70 period, very good
as a morale-boosting service for servicepeople such as those in
Vietnam (who could get to a 'Nam MARS station...not always
possible). MARS facilities were never required to support, let alone
supplant the very large communications structure of the U.S.
military and most MARS stations used (to be delicate) cast-offs
for their station equipments. The exception was the procurement
of the AN/FRC-93 HF transceiver, the commercial version (full
crystal bank) of the Collins KWM2. [I have the TM on it and can tell
where to get it for free PDF download...even for Canadians... :-) ]

The Army Communicator is a good source of information on U.S.
military land radios and is open to public access. So are older
issues of Signal (monthly) published by AFCEA at that website.
Army Communicator is found at Fort Gordon, GA, website at

http://www.gordon.army.mil/

AFCA (Air Force Communications Agency) has a nice website out
of Scott AFB (near St. Louis, on the Illinois side of the Mississippi).
There's a nice small museum there at the public lobby of AFCA
but their standout is their publications. For an overall history of Air
Force oriented communications, the free download of "From Flares
To Satellites" is most informative, well-written, good illustrations of
past to present. [rather a large download, good for a coffee break
while it rolls in]

Note: At the end of the 1950s, the USAF started phasing into
taking over of land-based HF communications while the US Army
phased slowly into implementing the DSN (Digital Switched
Network) and higher-speed data communications. Army was still
the mainstay of field communications by radio in southeast Asia
from Saigon to all other parts by everything from UHF radio relay
through underwater cable to troposcatter relay for 200 to 300 mile
shoots over all terrain. Army pioneered the communications
satellite use on a 24-hour, multi-channel basis in the mid-60s,
linking southeast Asia with Hawaii. Advancement, breaking new
ground. Things changing, new paradigms in all communications.

Something to remember on our national holiday of Memorial.

LHA / WMD

Subject: MARS IS "Amateur Radio".
From: (Len Over 21)
Date: 5/29/2004 5:48 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

In article , Leo

writes:

The FACTS are that MARS needs those civilian operators to make the
program work.

Actually, no.

Actually, yes.

Withdrawl of Amatuer assets would result in an overall loss that would
cripple the program. Without those participants there'd be nothing to be
"affiliated" with.

Something to remember on our national holiday of Memorial.

It's enlightening to see what you consider memorable, considering that you
seem to forget honor and respect the rest of the year.

Thanks for the historical piece on MARS. Your cut-and-paste skills are at
an all time high.

No Amatuer Radio = No MARS.

It really is THAT simple.

Steve, K4YZ

In article , (Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

Subject: MARS IS "Amateur Radio".
From: (Len Over 21)
Date: 5/29/2004 5:48 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

In article , Leo

writes:

The FACTS are that MARS needs those civilian operators to make the
program work.

Actually, no.

Actually, yes.

Withdrawl of Amatuer assets would result in an overall loss that would
cripple the program. Without those participants there'd be nothing to be
"affiliated" with.

MARS never worked with "amatuer assets." :-)

You've never read DoD Directive 4650.2 (21 Nov 03) have you?

MARS was never created, implemented, or directed to be a PART
of regular military tactical or strategic communications. It was
created - essentially - for morale and public relations activities, a
link between civilians and military. Over the years the role of MARS
has shifted from the morale and PR aspect to being a "go-between"
between established military communications and government
emergency and aid agencies.


No Amatuer Radio = No MARS.

Again, MARS never worked with "amatuer radio." :-)

Your original assertion was (see thread title) "MARS is amateur
radio."

That original assertion is WRONG.

MARS is (obviously) MILITARY.

MARS was originally created BY the military. It exists today on its
own as organic with the military structure and can function by
itself. The 2002 exercise of Grecian Firebolt over four weeks back
two years ago proved that.

You try to backpedal by changing your assertion that "No amateur
radio = no MARS." That too is WRONG.

MARS hasn't had the word "amateur" in its acronym since 1948.

The FCC didn't create MARS nor does it regulate it. Department
of Defense authorizes MARS (see Directive 4650.2).

It really is THAT simple.

Yes, what I've explained IS simple...but you REFUSE to accept
reality outside your imagination. Twice, really, first in the original
assertion and then in the revised form, both of which are incorrect.
You stubbornly insist you are right, almost in outrage (once again
misspelling "amateur" twice, as done in previous postings).

That's a sign of a disordered mind (along with refusal to accept
reality and constant displayed sociopathy). Get mental help.

LHA / WMD

Subject: MARS IS "Amateur Radio".
From: (Len Over 21)
Date: 5/30/2004 11:58 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

Withdrawl of Amatuer assets would result in an overall loss that would
cripple the program. Without those participants there'd be nothing to be
"affiliated" with.

MARS never worked with "amatuer assets."

BBBWWWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ! ! ! ! !

So, Lennie...Those thousands of persons who have membership in the various
branch progrmas are NOT an ASSET to those programs...?!?!

WHAT AN IDIOT ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

You've never read DoD Directive 4650.2 (21 Nov 03) have you?

You've never been a member of those programs and have PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE
in what makes them tick, have you...?!?!?

MARS was never created, implemented, or directed to be a PART
of regular military tactical or strategic communications. It was
created - essentially - for morale and public relations activities, a
link between civilians and military. Over the years the role of MARS
has shifted from the morale and PR aspect to being a "go-between"
between established military communications and government
emergency and aid agencies.

OK...SO you AGREE with what I've been saying all along then!

No Amatuer Radio = No MARS.

Again, MARS never worked with "amatuer radio."

And again, your ignorance is showing!

Your original assertion was (see thread title) "MARS is amateur
radio."

That original assertion is WRONG.

That you cannot think in the abstract is flamingly obvious!

MARS is (obviously) MILITARY.

A "military" program that DEPENDS upon licnesed Amateurs to run.

MARS was originally created BY the military. It exists today on its
own as organic with the military structure and can function by
itself. The 2002 exercise of Grecian Firebolt over four weeks back
two years ago proved that.

You try to backpedal by changing your assertion that "No amateur
radio = no MARS." That too is WRONG.

MARS hasn't had the word "amateur" in its acronym since 1948.

Doesn't matter.

In order to accomplish it's tasked goals, MARS needs those lincesed
Amateurs in order to function.

The FCC didn't create MARS nor does it regulate it. Department
of Defense authorizes MARS (see Directive 4650.2).

Why do you keep trying to make an issue of this, Lennie? I've never
mentioned the FCC in any of these exchanges?

It really is THAT simple.

Yes, what I've explained IS simple...but you REFUSE to accept
reality outside your imagination. Twice, really, first in the original
assertion and then in the revised form, both of which are incorrect.
You stubbornly insist you are right, almost in outrage (once again
misspelling "amateur" twice, as done in previous postings).

You've only quoted from published manuals and directives. It still does
not accurately reflect the true character of the MARS programs.

There's nothing INaccurate in what you've QUOTED when you've quoted it,
it's just that YOU refuse to accept that CURRENT MARS PRACTICE AND NEEDS are
DEPENDENT upon LICENSED RADIO AMATEURS to fulfill.

That's a sign of a disordered mind (along with refusal to accept
reality and constant displayed sociopathy). Get mental help.

What YOU have demonstrated is that YOU are trying to express an opinion
based upon purely theoretical or stricty "by the book" definitions and DO NOT
understand the actual functionings of ANY of the programs.

I again ask you how many MARSGRAMS have YOU processed?

How many phonepatches for AFLOAT units have you ran?

How's that Navy-Marine Corps MARS application going?

Please, Lennie...show us what PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE you have in ANY MARS
program....Of course you can always regale us with your exploits of 63 years
ago...

Steve, K4YZ

In article , (Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

Subject: MARS IS "Amateur Radio".
From: (Len Over 21)
Date: 5/30/2004 11:58 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

Withdrawl of Amatuer assets would result in an overall loss that would
cripple the program. Without those participants there'd be nothing to be
"affiliated" with.

MARS never worked with "amatuer assets."

BBBWWWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ! ! ! ! !

So, Lennie...Those thousands of persons who have membership in the
various branch progrmas are NOT an ASSET to those programs...?!?!

WHAT AN IDIOT ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

You wrote "amatuer" twice instead of the proper word "amateur."

Neither MARS nor the FCC has used "amatuers."

You have a near-constant tendency to misspell "amateur" in the
haste you seem to have (or possibly outrage, anger) to attempt
"cutting me off at the knees." :-)

You've never read DoD Directive 4650.2 (21 Nov 03) have you?

You've never been a member of those programs and have PRACTICAL
EXPERIENCE in what makes them tick, have you...?!?!?

Actually, I've operated one MARS transmitter allowed at the ADA
site long ago. Otherwise, no, I've never "operated MARS."

Closest I got to interplanetary communications was with the ALSEP
stations placed on the moon. Did supervise unmanned spacecraft
assembly that (eventually) orbited Mars.

On Terra, I've not been required to be an attorney of any kind in
reading and understanding of various laws from the government,
nor did I need to be any kind of commissioned officer in the
military to read and understand military specifications.

MARS was never created, implemented, or directed to be a PART
of regular military tactical or strategic communications. It was
created - essentially - for morale and public relations activities, a
link between civilians and military. Over the years the role of MARS
has shifted from the morale and PR aspect to being a "go-between"
between established military communications and government
emergency and aid agencies.

OK...SO you AGREE with what I've been saying all along then!

Not at all.

You've said "MARS is amateur radio."

That's false. MARS is MILITARY.

No Amatuer Radio = No MARS.

Again, MARS never worked with "amatuer radio."

And again, your ignorance is showing!

MARS likes to get volunteers from amateur radio, NOT "amatuer radio."

There's no such thing as "amatuer radio." :-)

Your original assertion was (see thread title) "MARS is amateur
radio."

That original assertion is WRONG.

That you cannot think in the abstract is flamingly obvious!

I'd say it is a case of you not being able to "think" at all.

MARS is MILITARY by DoD Directive, by regulations from all
three military branches.

The FCC doesn't define MARS, doesn't and cannot regulate it.

MARS is (obviously) MILITARY.

A "military" program that DEPENDS upon licnesed Amateurs to run.

No. MARS is "run" by military personnel. U.S. Army MARS Hq
is NETCOM at Fort Huachuca, AZ. They use military radio
equipment for MARS there.

MARS was originally created BY the military. It exists today on its
own as organic with the military structure and can function by
itself. The 2002 exercise of Grecian Firebolt over four weeks back
two years ago proved that.

You try to backpedal by changing your assertion that "No amateur
radio = no MARS." That too is WRONG.

MARS hasn't had the word "amateur" in its acronym since 1948.

Doesn't matter.

It did to the U.S. Army. It created the predecessor of MARS in
the AARS or Army Amateur Radio Service in 1925. Newly-
created USAF joined in 1948 and the AARS was renamed
MARS.

In order to accomplish it's tasked goals, MARS needs those lincesed
Amateurs in order to function.

MARS doesn't use "lincesed amateurs."

VOLUNTEERS for MARS operations come from "licensed amateurs."

The FCC didn't create MARS nor does it regulate it. Department
of Defense authorizes MARS (see Directive 4650.2).

Why do you keep trying to make an issue of this, Lennie? I've never
mentioned the FCC in any of these exchanges?

MARS is MILITARY.

Radio amateurs are licensed (not "lincesed") by the FCC. FCC
can only license (not "lincese") CIVIL radio, not military.




It really is THAT simple.

Yes, what I've explained IS simple...but you REFUSE to accept
reality outside your imagination. Twice, really, first in the original
assertion and then in the revised form, both of which are incorrect.
You stubbornly insist you are right, almost in outrage (once again
misspelling "amateur" twice, as done in previous postings).

You've only quoted from published manuals and directives. It still
does not accurately reflect the true character of the MARS programs.

Your "reflections on true character" exist only in your mind.

MARS is adequately described by MILITARY directives and
regulations. Some MARS operations have been written up in
the Army Center for Military History.

If you wish to imagine that your volunteerism with any MARS
makes you a part of the military service, that is just your
imagination working too hard.

There's nothing INaccurate in what you've QUOTED when you've quoted it,
it's just that YOU refuse to accept that CURRENT MARS PRACTICE AND NEEDS are
DEPENDENT upon LICENSED RADIO AMATEURS to fulfill.

No again. MARS can operate by itself, using just military personnel.

It did that in Grecian Thunderbolt 2002 for four weeks according to
the quarterly Army Communicator.


What YOU have demonstrated is that YOU are trying to express an opinion
based upon purely theoretical or stricty "by the book" definitions and DO NOT
understand the actual functionings of ANY of the programs.

No. I've merely stated the reality of MARS along with some of its
known history.

As a licensed radio amateur (not a "lincesed" one) you have to
both operate and conduct yourself "by the book" of Part 97 in order
to retain your amateur radio license (not "lincese") grant.

I again ask you how many MARSGRAMS have YOU processed?

I've tried to send three of those MARS messages through the
local FEC Hq. MARS detachment. They never got forwarded.
Surface mail was far more reliable. :-)

How many phonepatches for AFLOAT units have you ran?

"AFLOAT?" Is that some kind of MARS auxilliary? :-)

How's that Navy-Marine Corps MARS application going?

Why are you so concerned about "applying to Navy MARS?"

I've never said that I wanted to participate in MARS.

Please, Lennie...show us what PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE you have in ANY MARS
program....Of course you can always regale us with your exploits of 63 years
ago...

"Regale exploits of 63 years ago?!?" :-)

63 years ago would make it the year 1941. I was 8 years
old then.

You didn't exist in 1941. Your parents were never able
to bear children in 1941.

They should have stayed with that ability. :-)

Temper fry...

LHA / WMD

Subject: MARS IS "Amateur Radio".
From: (Len Over 21)
Date: 5/30/2004 7:08 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

So, Lennie...Those thousands of persons who have membership in the
various branch progrmas are NOT an ASSET to those programs...?!?!

WHAT AN IDIOT ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

You wrote "amatuer" twice instead of the proper word "amateur."

Neither MARS nor the FCC has used "amatuers."

You have a near-constant tendency to misspell "amateur" in the
haste you seem to have (or possibly outrage, anger) to attempt
"cutting me off at the knees."

I see.

You make idiotic replies based solely upon a typo.

Which makes you even MORE idiotic, considering your alleged education.

VOLUNTEERS for MARS operations come from "licensed amateurs."

So other than your attempt to "undermine" my points based upon a
transposed letter, we can again assume that you agree with me that MARS depends
upon these licensed Amateurs to run the program.

If you wish to imagine that your volunteerism with any MARS
makes you a part of the military service, that is just your
imagination working too hard.

If YOU wish to try and suppose that, then you are welcome to.

It seems to me that you have an unwavering hatred of anyone who's done
anything you HAVEN'T done, or HAS done, only better.

I again ask you how many MARSGRAMS have YOU processed?

I've tried to send three of those MARS messages through the
local FEC Hq. MARS detachment. They never got forwarded.
Surface mail was far more reliable.

Uh huh.

How many phonepatches for AFLOAT units have you ran?

"AFLOAT?" Is that some kind of MARS auxilliary?

Yet another demosntration of your lack of experience.

How's that Navy-Marine Corps MARS application going?

Why are you so concerned about "applying to Navy MARS?"

You said that N/MC MARS regualtions didn't specify a need for licensure
in the Amateur Radio Service to be a member. You said you could do it. I was
waiting to see if you could/would, if only to prove you could.

You didn't, obviously, which is exactly what I would expect of you.

A lot of blustery brogadaccio with no net effect.

I've never said that I wanted to participate in MARS.

Under current circumstances, you won't be allowed to.

Please, Lennie...show us what PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE you have in ANY MARS
program....Of course you can always regale us with your exploits of 63 years
ago...

"Regale exploits of 63 years ago?!?" :-)

63 years ago would make it the year 1941. I was 8 years
old then.

You didn't exist in 1941. Your parents were never able
to bear children in 1941.

Oh? You know my parents? You know when they married? You know that I am
the youngest/oldest of the family?

Forgive my math error. I forgive you many of yours. None the less, it
remains that the ONLY "military" communications experience you have was over
half a century ago. NONE of it in any MARS program.

They should have stayed with that ability.

As should have yours.

Speaking of which, when are we gonna get the scopp on YOUR child rearing
experiences? Still waiting on the source of your background for the assertion
that Amateur licenses should be age-limitied

Temper fry...

Not here...

Steve, K4YZ

In article , (Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

Subject: MARS IS "Amateur Radio".
From: (Len Over 21)
Date: 5/30/2004 7:08 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

So, Lennie...Those thousands of persons who have membership in the
various branch progrmas are NOT an ASSET to those programs...?!?!

WHAT AN IDIOT ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

You wrote "amatuer" twice instead of the proper word "amateur."

Neither MARS nor the FCC has used "amatuers."

You have a near-constant tendency to misspell "amateur" in the
haste you seem to have (or possibly outrage, anger) to attempt
"cutting me off at the knees."

I see.

It's about time... :-)

You make idiotic replies based solely upon a typo.

I just reply to your idiocy of claiming "MARS is amateur radio."

MARS is military, by directive, by definition.

Which makes you even MORE idiotic, considering your alleged education.

No. The only thing that could be considered "idiotic" is the vain
hope that you could understand government directives and
regulations.

You do not.

VOLUNTEERS for MARS operations come from "licensed amateurs."

So other than your attempt to "undermine" my points based upon a
transposed letter, we can again assume that you agree with me that MARS
depends upon these licensed Amateurs to run the program.

No, "we" cannot. MARS has worked okay by itself, such as in
the four-week exercise Grecian Firebolt 2002.

You have constantly stated an obvious error that "MARS is amateur
radio." It is not. MARS is military.

If you wish to imagine that your volunteerism with any MARS
makes you a part of the military service, that is just your
imagination working too hard.

If YOU wish to try and suppose that, then you are welcome to.

You have constantly stated that "MARS is amateur radio."

It is not. MARS is militrary.

Everyone can come to the conclusion that you wish to associate
yourself with the military even though you your military service
was terminated. One way to do that is make the false, misleading
statement that "MARS is amateur radio."

It seems to me that you have an unwavering hatred of anyone who's done
anything you HAVEN'T done, or HAS done, only better.

Tsk, tsk, tsk. Correcting a false statement (such as your "MARS
is amateur radio") is nothing involving hatred.

Your stubborn and ill-tempered attempt to convince all that you
are "correct" makes you want to misdirect the "argument" into
personal attacks on others or that others are "incorrect."

MARS is military. By directive, by regulation.



You said that N/MC MARS regualtions didn't specify a need for licensure
in the Amateur Radio Service to be a member. You said you could do it. I
was waiting to see if you could/would, if only to prove you could.

Anyone can look at USN-USMC Communications Instruction
NTP 8(C) and see that for themselves.

No one has to "join" a USN MARS group (by volunteering) in order
to read that.

You didn't, obviously, which is exactly what I would expect of you.

Incorrect. I found the appropriate USN-USMC regulation, named it,
gave a website for others to get it and read it.

Nothing has changed in the interim.

A lot of blustery brogadaccio with no net effect.

Nothing of the kind. I presented information.

That information, indeed all sources of MARS information, makes
your statement "MARS is amateur radio" false.

You need to admit your statement was false and carry on.

Refusal to deny your falsity fools no one...except yourself.


Please, Lennie...show us what PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE you have in ANY MARS
program....Of course you can always regale us with your exploits of 63 years
ago...

"Regale exploits of 63 years ago?!?" :-)

63 years ago would make it the year 1941. I was 8 years
old then.

You didn't exist in 1941. Your parents were never able
to bear children in 1941.

Oh? You know my parents? You know when they married? You know that I
am the youngest/oldest of the family?

Tsk, tsk, tsk. Another case of refusing to admit you made another
wrong statement or error in typing. :-)

A marriage ceremony and legal papers thereto is not a requirement
to have a child. [nature and biology have their own rules...]

Are you now saying you are illegitimate? :-)

Forgive my math error. I forgive you many of yours. None the less, it
remains that the ONLY "military" communications experience you have was over
half a century ago. NONE of it in any MARS program.

Incorrect. One of the 43 transmitters at U.S. Army radio station ADA
was allowed second priority in use for the U.S. Army MARS group
attached to Headquarters, United States Forces, Far East in 1953
to 1955. That MARS group (approximately four service personnel)
obtained their own HF radio station moved to Hardy Barracks in
1955 after ADA transmitters had moved from Tsukishima to Kashiwa.
They had a nice multiband beam, rotatable, on a tower at Hardy in
1955.


Speaking of which, when are we gonna get the scopp on YOUR child rearing
experiences? Still waiting on the source of your background for the
assertion that Amateur licenses should be age-limitied

Tsk, tsk, tsk. [the word should be "scoop" not 'scopp.' :-) ]

Misdirection. The six-year-old ranting about my Comment on
Docket 98-143 is not a part of this subject thread and has nothing
to do with MARS. That other thread was ranted by long-timers
two years after my Comment had been made public. Sore heads.
Can't let dead horses be, have to beat them incessantly. :-)

"Necro-equine flaggelation." :-)

Temper fry...

LHA / WMD