(Cathy James) wrote in message . com...
Greetings all,

I am planning to move to the western suburbs of Minneapolis soon, and
would like to know if there are any communities that I should
specifically "look at" or "avoid" due to restrictions on ham radio
antennas or other issues.

Even apart from ham radio issues, I prefer rural to urban, but commute
time to the areas on the west side of downtown is an issue preventing
me from being too far out. Mound is probably the western limit of
what I am willing to consider.

Right now I am looking at Mound, Champlin, and Maple Grove. My
realtor is generally helpful, but amateur radio is a mystery to her
and I do not think she is used to getting such requests.

Cathy:

First off, you need the services of a good *real estate* attorney. Not
just any lawyer will do; you need someone who does RE as a specialty
and who deals with CC&Rs (codes, covenants and restrictions) on a
daily basis. Make sure the attorney understands that his/her job is to
dig up any and all restrictions on any property you might be
interested in *before* you sign anything.

Second, require that you and your attorney be provided with a complete
and up-to-date set of the deed, title and all covenants and deed
restrictions *before* you make an offer, and read them thoroughly.
Sometimes they are part of the deed/title itself but often they are
not. States differ widely and you may need to be a bit insistent on
what you want to see. Almost all properties built in the past 40-50
years have some sort of restrictions, and those built in the last 30
years often have lots and lots of restrictions of various types. Note
that most restrictions are intentionally designed to be *impossible*
to change, and that by signing on the dotted line you agree to abide
by *all* of them.

Third, try to educate the realtor. Show her some typical amateur
antenna installations so she has a better idea of what it is you want
to put up. Terms like "antenna tower" mean different things to
different people.

Fourth, realize that most but not all of the people involved in a real
estate transaction only get paid if you actually buy a house. No sale
= no comission/fees/taxes.

In my case the realtor and attorney were able to get me a complete
copy of the restrictions fairly easily. They were *not* part of the
deed/title documents - instead, those documents referred to the
restrictions, which had to be retrieved from the county courthouse
records. I had to ask specifically to see them early on in the
transaction - if I hadn't insisted, I would never have seen them at
all. Until somebody complained.

Even though my house is over 50 years old and there has never been any
sort of home owner's association, there were a page and a half of
restrictions. Most of them seem a bit comical today (no raising
livestock on a property that is 60 x 120 feet) or have been superseded
by more-restrictive township ordinances (setbacks, advertising
signage, noise). No mention of antennas but I can't have a
freestanding tower (or a shed) with a concrete base because that would
constitute a "structure" and only the house and garage structures are
permitted.
Doesn't matter to me because there's no room for a tower anyway but
that's the sort of thing to look for.

Good luck!

73 de Jim, N2EY

On 19 Apr 2004 14:03:51 -0700, (N2EY) wrote:

Cathy:


Third, try to educate the realtor. Show her some typical amateur
antenna installations so she has a better idea of what it is you want
to put up. Terms like "antenna tower" mean different things to
different people.

Just as an aside, it might be worthwhile to drive around a
prospective purchase area and just look for antennas. A couple of
polite questions might tell you a lot about what is possible.

It might also be worthwhile to Google for amateur radio clubs
in the area to see if they have a feel for local conditions. While
neither of these will necessarily be binding on your particular
property, they might give you a general clue to the area.

For what it's worth, I live in Daly City, a suburb of San
Francisco. This area was built across the 60s. I'm not aware of any
local restrictions, but I have two ham friends within a few blocks,
one of whom has a few slopers and verticals on his roof and the other
of which has about a 60 foot crank-up tower in his back yard with a
yagi that barely fits within his own property lines (maybe a 25' x
150' lot).

Westlake, an area closer to San Francisco, maybe even part of
Daly City for all I know, has extensive CC&Rs, including requirements
to keep your house painted in an acceptable color and to keep a living
palm tree on your living green (grass only) lawn (even those whose
houses are sliding into the Pacific Ocean, aided by pumping all that
water into the ground. Some of the earlier restrictions, like those
restricting sales to certain ethnic groups have been overturned by
courts and some sections of that subdivision are now easing or
abandoning some of the restrictions as the opportunity for the
residents to re-vote on them comes up.

All of which is to say that conditions may vary greatly within
short distances, whether in urban or rural areas. So I have to agree
with the earlier posts which note that the Realtor (tm) -- yes it is a
restricted term than just anyone may not use -- is working for the
seller and that involving a knowledgeabla local real estate attorney
is your only guarantee.

On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 21:46:49 GMT, wrote:

For what it's worth, I live in Daly City, a suburb of San
Francisco. This area was built across the 60s. I'm not aware of any
local restrictions, but I have two ham friends within a few blocks,
one of whom has a few slopers and verticals on his roof and the other
of which has about a 60 foot crank-up tower in his back yard with a
yagi that barely fits within his own property lines (maybe a 25' x
150' lot).

I lived in Daly City (St, Francis Heights area) from 1977 to 1985
and there were no restrictions on the 1960-era house and lot.

Westlake, an area closer to San Francisco, maybe even part of
Daly City for all I know,

Yes, the Westlake District is an integral part of Daly City that was
the first tract development by Henry Doelger post WW-II (in fact
when one says "Daly City" one thinks of Westlake first).

has extensive CC&Rs, including requirements
to keep your house painted in an acceptable color and to keep a living
palm tree on your living green (grass only) lawn

That requirement was overturned as unreasonable by a court case in
the early 1970s.

My kids, OTOH, live in one of the condos up near the water tanks in
the foothills of San Bruno Mountain (still in Daly City) and there
are CC&Rs up the wazoo. For obvious reasons they did not seek my
legal advice or assistance before they bought the (obscenely-priced)
property - no big deal, neither of them are hams.

All of which is to say that conditions may vary greatly within
short distances, whether in urban or rural areas. So I have to agree
with the earlier posts which note that the Realtor (tm) -- yes it is a
restricted term than just anyone may not use -- is working for the
seller and that involving a knowledgeabla local real estate attorney
is your only guarantee.

Now for Cathy -

Make your receiving, examination, and acceptance of all the
restrictions (CC&Rs and any Homeowners' Association Regulations)
a contingency of any offer, and get some advice from a local
ARRL Volunteer Counsel who can give you local information of the
sort that Hans gave you about Plymouth. VCs are listed on the ARRL
web site - you should touch base with one first.

Also it would not be a bad idea to touch base with Jay Bellows,
K0QB, the ARRL Dakota Division Director who lives in St. Paul. Jay
is one of a handful of us attorneys who deal in zoning, permit, and
legal issues involving amateur stations on a regular basis, and was
the attorney who was successful in getting the key U S Court of
Appeals ruling in _Pentel v Mendota Heights_ upholding the FCC's
requirement that a municipality must give "reasonable accomodation"
to amateur antenna structure applicants.

I can only wish you good fortune in finding a place that suits your
needs.

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
ARRL Volunteer Counsel

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon

N2EY wrote:
(Cathy James) wrote in message . com...

Greetings all,

I am planning to move to the western suburbs of Minneapolis soon, and
would like to know if there are any communities that I should
specifically "look at" or "avoid" due to restrictions on ham radio
antennas or other issues.

Even apart from ham radio issues, I prefer rural to urban, but commute
time to the areas on the west side of downtown is an issue preventing
me from being too far out. Mound is probably the western limit of
what I am willing to consider.

Right now I am looking at Mound, Champlin, and Maple Grove. My
realtor is generally helpful, but amateur radio is a mystery to her
and I do not think she is used to getting such requests.


Cathy:

First off, you need the services of a good *real estate* attorney. Not
just any lawyer will do; you need someone who does RE as a specialty
and who deals with CC&Rs (codes, covenants and restrictions) on a
daily basis. Make sure the attorney understands that his/her job is to
dig up any and all restrictions on any property you might be
interested in *before* you sign anything.

I don't know about hiring an attorney first off, Jim. Over the course
of buying a hous, I looked at maybe 30 or more. Sorry, I just don't have
the money to pay an attorney to investigate every house I looked at.

When the field got really, really narrow, then perhaps

Second, require that you and your attorney be provided with a complete
and up-to-date set of the deed, title and all covenants and deed
restrictions *before* you make an offer, and read them thoroughly.
Sometimes they are part of the deed/title itself but often they are
not. States differ widely and you may need to be a bit insistent on
what you want to see. Almost all properties built in the past 40-50
years have some sort of restrictions, and those built in the last 30
years often have lots and lots of restrictions of various types. Note
that most restrictions are intentionally designed to be *impossible*
to change, and that by signing on the dotted line you agree to abide
by *all* of them.

Third, try to educate the realtor. Show her some typical amateur
antenna installations so she has a better idea of what it is you want
to put up. Terms like "antenna tower" mean different things to
different people.

Maybe for a little kickback? Seriously, that is the job they are
supposed to do, and considering th eamount of commission they get, they
are supposed to find out things you need to know.

Mind you, I don't think very highly of most of them. I could tell you
about the time that we took a tour of a house that was already sold. Or
the time we put a down payment on a house that the agent "neglected" to
tell us was in a flood plain until the day after the check was cashed. I
told him he had exactly 30 minutes to repay us the money. Took 15.

Fourth, realize that most but not all of the people involved in a real
estate transaction only get paid if you actually buy a house. No sale
= no comission/fees/taxes.

Sure enough. That isn't an excuse for incompetence tho'.

In my case the realtor and attorney were able to get me a complete
copy of the restrictions fairly easily. They were *not* part of the
deed/title documents - instead, those documents referred to the
restrictions, which had to be retrieved from the county courthouse
records. I had to ask specifically to see them early on in the
transaction - if I hadn't insisted, I would never have seen them at
all. Until somebody complained.

Part of their job, like asking to see only green houses. Or not green
houses.


Even though my house is over 50 years old and there has never been any
sort of home owner's association, there were a page and a half of
restrictions. Most of them seem a bit comical today (no raising
livestock on a property that is 60 x 120 feet) or have been superseded
by more-restrictive township ordinances (setbacks, advertising
signage, noise). No mention of antennas but I can't have a
freestanding tower (or a shed) with a concrete base because that would
constitute a "structure" and only the house and garage structures are
permitted.
Doesn't matter to me because there's no room for a tower anyway but
that's the sort of thing to look for.


I got lucky when I bought my house. I could put up a 40 foot tower
without a problem, and no restrictions on wire antennas. I say lucky,
because I didn't become interested in the ARS until after we were in the
place for 5 years or so.


- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...
N2EY wrote:

First off, you need the services of a good *real estate* attorney. Not
just any lawyer will do; you need someone who does RE as a specialty
and who deals with CC&Rs (codes, covenants and restrictions) on a
daily basis. Make sure the attorney understands that his/her job is to
dig up any and all restrictions on any property you might be
interested in *before* you sign anything.

I don't know about hiring an attorney first off, Jim. Over the course
of buying a hous, I looked at maybe 30 or more. Sorry, I just don't have
the money to pay an attorney to investigate every house I looked at.

Mike & Cathy,

Sorry if I wasn't clear about the attorney's role. My point was that
the thing to do is to line up a good RE attorney right away, with the
understanding that when you are seriously considering a particular
house you'll have the attorney research it.

In my local RE market, things move so fast that you need to have all
your people ready to go beforehand. MN may be different, though.

When the field got really, really narrow, then perhaps

Second, require that you and your attorney be provided with a complete
and up-to-date set of the deed, title and all covenants and deed
restrictions *before* you make an offer, and read them thoroughly.
Sometimes they are part of the deed/title itself but often they are
not. States differ widely and you may need to be a bit insistent on
what you want to see. Almost all properties built in the past 40-50
years have some sort of restrictions, and those built in the last 30
years often have lots and lots of restrictions of various types. Note
that most restrictions are intentionally designed to be *impossible*
to change, and that by signing on the dotted line you agree to abide
by *all* of them.

Third, try to educate the realtor. Show her some typical amateur
antenna installations so she has a better idea of what it is you want
to put up. Terms like "antenna tower" mean different things to
different people.

Maybe for a little kickback? Seriously, that is the job they are
supposed to do, and considering th eamount of commission they get, they
are supposed to find out things you need to know.

In a perfect world, yes. But fewer than 1 in 100 Americans is a ham,
and many hams are in the same family, so the chances are good that a
given RE agent will have little or no experience with antenna
restriction covenants and such.

Mind you, I don't think very highly of most of them. I could tell you
about the time that we took a tour of a house that was already sold. Or
the time we put a down payment on a house that the agent "neglected" to
tell us was in a flood plain until the day after the check was cashed. I
told him he had exactly 30 minutes to repay us the money. Took 15.

Was this *your* agent or *their* agent?

Fourth, realize that most but not all of the people involved in a real
estate transaction only get paid if you actually buy a house. No sale
= no comission/fees/taxes.

Sure enough. That isn't an excuse for incompetence tho'.

'Course not. But it happens nonetheless. Laws differ by state - I only
know PA and I'm not an attorney.

In my case the realtor and attorney were able to get me a complete
copy of the restrictions fairly easily. They were *not* part of the
deed/title documents - instead, those documents referred to the
restrictions, which had to be retrieved from the county courthouse
records. I had to ask specifically to see them early on in the
transaction - if I hadn't insisted, I would never have seen them at
all. Until somebody complained.

Part of their job, like asking to see only green houses. Or not green
houses.

Point is you have to tell them about the green and how you define
"green".

Even though my house is over 50 years old and there has never been any
sort of home owner's association, there were a page and a half of
restrictions. Most of them seem a bit comical today (no raising
livestock on a property that is 60 x 120 feet) or have been superseded
by more-restrictive township ordinances (setbacks, advertising
signage, noise). No mention of antennas but I can't have a
freestanding tower (or a shed) with a concrete base because that would
constitute a "structure" and only the house and garage structures are
permitted.
Doesn't matter to me because there's no room for a tower anyway but
that's the sort of thing to look for.

I got lucky when I bought my house. I could put up a 40 foot tower
without a problem, and no restrictions on wire antennas. I say lucky,
because I didn't become interested in the ARS until after we were in the
place for 5 years or so.

Someday I will have the proverbial couple of unrestricted acres in the
country with the antenna farm. Right now other considerations govern.
That's the spot most hams are in when house hunting.

73 de Jim, N2EY