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#1
April 24th 04, 01:53 AM
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Subject: Cell phone woes
From: (William) Date: 4/23/2004 4:58 PM Central Standard Time Message-id: (Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message ... Subject: Cell phone woes From: "KØHB" Date: 4/22/2004 11:04 PM Central Standard Time Message-id: et "JJ" wrote | | And that is why the military and other emergency officials do not | include cell phones in their emergency planning , but they do include | amateur radio. | I spent a whole career involved in military (Naval) communications planning, from single units to entire fleets, and never once included amateur radio as a component of that planning. You never seerved at a Naval facility that didn't have a MARS station or used MARS for passing ANY kind of traffic, Hans...??? Steve, you're confusing MARS with Amateur Radio. They are not the same thing. No, I am not. I know of four military facilities, one of them Naval, that incorporate MARS teams for emergency purposes, That's like saying, "I know of military installations that are guarded by military police," No, it's not. MARS is military. Check out what the acronym means sometime. I know it quite well. Military AFFILIATE Radio System. That means licensed AMATEURS "affiliated" with that particular MARS/military program. No Amateur Radio Operators = No MARS. and two of them that utilize RACES teams for civil coordination in appropriate scenarios. "and two of them use contract security services." Very true. Civil Defense guys like FEMA in fact do count on amateur radio in emergency situations. "Civil Defense guys" include military planners. Except when one is Master Chief Brakob or MSgt. Burke. Unless you were assigned the responsibility of incorportating those assets to your plan by higher headquarters, Brian. Are you stating for the record that if you are tasked with such a requirement that you'd disobey lawful orders? I just finished "Heartland Response 04" and I can tell you that there were at least two uniformed representitives from Penatgon offices there. OK. Guess they forgot to consult you first, Hans. Since you've concluded "Heartland Response 04," would you mind giving us an after action report? Lessons learned? No, I would not care to give you an "after action report", other than to say I had a good time and a lot WAS learned/accomplished. Go figure, eh...?!?! So does MARS still = ARS? Only as it pertains to providing the people and resources to HAVE a MARS program, Brian. No Amateur Radio Operators = No MARS program. Such is NOT true with REACT, Civil Air Patrol, the Coast Guard Auxiliary, and other programs/agencies, although they MAY have some Amateurs participating. An Amateur ticket is NOT required for them. Unless, of course, you know of some secret DoD document that would deploy Active Duty service persons to flesh out the MARS ranks if they all decided to quit...?!?! 73 Steve, K4YZ |
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#2
April 24th 04, 05:42 PM
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#3
April 25th 04, 12:04 AM
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Subject: Cell phone woes
From: (William) Date: 4/24/2004 11:42 AM Central Standard Time Message-id: (Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message ... MARS is military. Check out what the acronym means sometime. I know it quite well. Military AFFILIATE Radio System. That means licensed AMATEURS "affiliated" with that particular MARS/military program. I am a leader in the BSA. That's scary. When I am on my paying job, am I representing the BSA? Who cares? You may. When I am on my paying job I occassionally get to discuss CAP, Amateur Radio, EMS and several other "programs" I participate in. Ergo, you MAY be "representing" BSA when you're on your "paying job"... When a volunteer is signing AFA3xx, is he or she representing the BSA, CSA, FFa or the PTA? Could be. Nope. And neither are they representing the ARS or the ARRL. Says you? No Amateur Radio Operators = No MARS. Not true. Regulations change every day. The regulations will be changed to suit new conditions. Perhaps. But right now...today...what I stated is true. TOMORROW they may require that I be wearing Avon when I operate and that I hang from the shower curtain by my ankles. But not today. MARS would have an easier training load by training people off the street rather than having to retrain a bunch of amateurs. Unless you were assigned the responsibility of incorportating those assets to your plan by higher headquarters, Brian. Are you stating for the record that if you are tasked with such a requirement that you'd disobey lawful orders? Comms was not my functional area, but weather comms were. But I will state for the record that I'd write anything into the plan or opord that hhq told me to - as long as it was a legal order. Then you were not being honest with yourself or faithful to your sworn oath. Yes, 99.999% of the time I am sure no one would ask you to write dumb stuff. No, I would not care to give you an "after action report", other than to say I had a good time and a lot WAS learned/accomplished. Great! You accomplished WAS. Glad you had fun. Huh...??? Unless, of course, you know of some secret DoD document that would deploy Active Duty service persons to flesh out the MARS ranks if they all decided to quit...?!?! I suspect that MARS, if need be, could find volunteers who didn't have amateur licenses. Isn't that what CAP does? Doesn't CAP use radios on military frequencies? What CAP does today is irrelevent to the topic being discussed. And I have proposed changes to the AFMARS system that would allow CAP members who have completed "ACUT" (Advanced Communicator User Training) and who have demonstrated competency to be allowed to enroll in AFMARS. But that is NOT what the rules allow now, and what MIGHT happen in the future is irrelevent NOW. MARS is NOT "Amateur Radio." Best of Luck, and last this subject. No Amateur Radio = No MARS. And best of luck to you. Steve, K4YZ |
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#5
April 26th 04, 04:31 AM
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Subject: Cell phone woes
From: (William) Date: 4/25/2004 10:17 AM Central Standard Time Message-id: (Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message ... But right now...today...what I stated is true. Nope, you're "FACTS" are moving targets. You've already backtracked on your original statement and now say that 1% of MARS personnel are not Amateurs. OK...here we go again. Brian, I have ALWAYS stated that there are SOME "non-Amateur" personnel involved in MARS. Most of those are Active Duty Armed Forces. You provided the name of ONE person who is neither Amateur nor ADAF. I will accept that there are probably folks who fall into that same category for N/MC and Army MARS. I still contend that the numbers will be around 1%, certainly no more than 10%. That means 90% of the load is carried by licensed Amateur Radio operators. No Amateur Radio = No MARS, that 1-10% notwithstanding. TOMORROW they may require that I be wearing Avon when I operate and that I hang from the shower curtain by my ankles. But not today. They won't. Trust me. Try to stay away from extremes. Hey...You're the one who can't/won't accept that MARS existence is directly predicated on the participation of licensed Amateur Radio operators. You're also the one who has made suggestions about what MARS may or may not be based upon arbitrary rules changes that COULD be enacted SOME time in the future. Not what IS in writing...but what MIGHT happen. That's "extreme". Comms was not my functional area, but weather comms were. But I will state for the record that I'd write anything into the plan or opord that hhq told me to - as long as it was a legal order. Then you were not being honest with yourself or faithful to your sworn oath. How am I not being honest? You said you'd write "anything" if it were a "legal order". Your commanding officer could tell you to write "I am gay" on a blackboard 100 times. That would be a legal order. Would you do it, knowing it wasn't true? (Or is it?) Yes, 99.999% of the time I am sure no one would ask you to write dumb stuff. Lots of dumb stuff is written here. Arguing minutia over and over and over is what Carl commented on. I am impressed that several people express angst over "arguing minutia", but usually what THEY consider "minutia" is inversely proportional to whether they find it important to themselves...Not what others consider important. I, for one, do not consider your assertion of "significant role" in the use of unlicensed radio services in emergency communications, to be valid, well founded, nor even wise. You, however, considered it "minutia", no doubt due to the fact taht it was an indefensible idea. I suspect that MARS, if need be, could find volunteers who didn't have amateur licenses. Isn't that what CAP does? Doesn't CAP use radios on military frequencies? What CAP does today is irrelevent to the topic being discussed. Yes, it is. The USAF has set a precedent that they don't require amateur volunteers to operate radios on military frequencies. Do you disagree? Yes, I do. (Disagree) CAP is NOT MARS. It never was. It NEVER required Amateur licensure in order to participate. CAP has encouraged Amateurs to participate, and encourages it's members to consider being licensed. However they are also very adamant that CAP operators not use Amateur frequencies for CAP business, and "Amateur-like" communications not be conducted on CAP frequencies. Apples and oranges, Brian. And I have proposed changes to the AFMARS system that would allow CAP members who have completed "ACUT" (Advanced Communicator User Training) and who have demonstrated competency to be allowed to enroll in AFMARS. Hopefully you didn't include Avon products and hanging upside down from the shower rod in your proposal. Now please allow me to have an opinion. You have a CAP volunteer who now wants to add AFMARS volunteer to his/her credentials. Then the big disaster occurs and CAP calls him up for duty. Then AFMARS calls him up for duty. Then RACES calls him up for duty. Then the ARC calls him up for duty. Then the ER calls him up for duty. Then home calls and say they need him there. Choose one (1) emergency service to volunteer for and do it well. When work calls and says they need you there, you go to work. When home calls and says they need you there, you go home. I am sure you have a point to make, Brian, but I think the point is that you're jealous that others are capable of being/doing more than one thing. If you're a one-thing-at-a-time kinda guy, that's fine. There's nothing to be ashamed of. Lot's of people can't handle more than one thing at a time...Or one thing at all... I think some people collect volunteer credentials like some people collect 10-10 numbers. Like I said...If you're a OTAAT kinda guy, that's fine. Some of us realize that there's only one pass at life and a lot of things to do and experience. I like to do a lot of things. I may never "master" any of them, but I will have done them and been made better for it. And in some cases my having DONE them has made things better for others. That's the icing on the cake. But that is NOT what the rules allow now, and what MIGHT happen in the future is irrelevent NOW. If future rules are irrelevant, why do you propose changes? They are irrelevent at this moment. They may not be tomorrow. Can I hold you accountable TODAY for a yet-to-be enacted law...?!?! MARS is NOT "Amateur Radio." Best of Luck, and last this subject. No Amateur Radio = No MARS. MARS is NOT "Amateur Radio." No Amateur Radio = No MARS. It really is THAT simple. Steve, K4YZ |
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#6
April 26th 04, 11:24 PM
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(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message ...
Subject: Cell phone woes From: (William) Date: 4/25/2004 10:17 AM Central Standard Time Message-id: (Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message ... But right now...today...what I stated is true. Nope, you're "FACTS" are moving targets. You've already backtracked on your original statement and now say that 1% of MARS personnel are not Amateurs. OK...here we go again. No, Steve. There YOU go again. Brian, I have ALWAYS stated that there are SOME "non-Amateur" personnel involved in MARS. You absolutely have NOT. This is what you stated: " Sorry Hans, MARS IS "Amateur Radio". " Must I define " IS " for you? Not only aren't all MARS personnel not amateur radio operators, but MARS is NOT Amateur Radio. Most of those are Active Duty Armed Forces. And so you start modifying your position. At first, " Sorry Hans, MARS IS "Amateur Radio". " Then, you allowed for active duty personnel. You provided the name of ONE person who is neither Amateur nor ADAF. It only takes ONE to make your equation false. I will accept that there are probably folks who fall into that same category for N/MC and Army MARS. It matters not that you accept it. As a matter of fact, the more you modify your nonsense statement that " Sorry Hans, MARS IS "Amateur Radio". ," the closer you come to the truth. I still contend that the numbers will be around 1%, certainly no more than 10%. Yet another modification. Congrats. That means 90% of the load is carried by licensed Amateur Radio operators. If you say so. I'm losing interest. Let me know when you accept that your statement was false. |
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#7
April 27th 04, 04:22 AM
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Subject: Cell phone woes
From: (William) Date: 4/26/2004 5:24 PM Central Standard Time Message-id: No, Steve. There YOU go again. Brian, why do you want to start lying again? It's been a nice couple of weeks, and here you are again, trying to hide behind middle school boys and re-write what others have said despite the inviobility of Google. Brian, I have ALWAYS stated that there are SOME "non-Amateur" personnel involved in MARS. You absolutely have NOT. "Absolutely", Brian? I have REPEATEDLY said there are non-Amateur Active Duty personnel assigned to the MARS program. This is what you stated: " Sorry Hans, MARS IS "Amateur Radio". " Must I define " IS " for you? Not only aren't all MARS personnel not amateur radio operators, but MARS is NOT Amateur Radio. Most of those are Active Duty Armed Forces. And so you start modifying your position. I see...Once someone says "something", it is absolute and non-amendable. You ARE an idiot, Burke. At first, " Sorry Hans, MARS IS "Amateur Radio". " Then, you allowed for active duty personnel. I have said that long before this, Brian. Please get your stories straight. You provided the name of ONE person who is neither Amateur nor ADAF. It only takes ONE to make your equation false. What equation? That over 90% of the membership of MARS are licensed Amateurs? That at any given moment the program is WHOLLY depenedent on those AMATEURS...? You can beleive that if you want to, but it will make you look pretty idiotic, Brian I will accept that there are probably folks who fall into that same category for N/MC and Army MARS. It matters not that you accept it. As a matter of fact, the more you modify your nonsense statement that " Sorry Hans, MARS IS "Amateur Radio". ," the closer you come to the truth. I still contend that the numbers will be around 1%, certainly no more than 10%. Yet another modification. Congrats. That means 90% of the load is carried by licensed Amateur Radio operators. If you say so. I'm losing interest. No doubt you are. You are woefully unprepared and wholly incapable of carrying on an adequate debate here, Brian. You border on incompetent. Let me know when you accept that your statement was false. MARS - Amateur Radio = Ancient History. MARS IS Amateur Radio. Sorry you don't agree. Sorry you don't UNDERSTAND. Now scurry off with the Scouts, Brian. I am sure your "knowledge" and "experiences" impress them. Steve, K4YZ |
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