Cell phone woes
 

In case we didn't have enpough of cell phone stories. 8^)


http://consumeraffairs.com/news03/isabel_cells.html


- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote:
In case we didn't have enpough of cell phone stories. 8^)


http://consumeraffairs.com/news03/isabel_cells.html


- Mike KB3EIA -

"Cell phones performed as expected -- i.e., not very well -- ".

And that is why the military and other emergency officials do not
include cell phones in their emergency planning , but they do include
amateur radio.

"JJ" wrote
|
| And that is why the military and other emergency officials do not
| include cell phones in their emergency planning , but they do include
| amateur radio.
|

I spent a whole career involved in military (Naval) communications
planning, from single units to entire fleets, and never once included
amateur radio as a component of that planning.

Civil Defense guys like FEMA in fact do count on amateur radio in
emergency situations.

73, de Hans, K0HB

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...
In case we didn't have enpough of cell phone stories. 8^)


http://consumeraffairs.com/news03/isabel_cells.html


- Mike KB3EIA -

Go to QRZ.com for some FRS points of view.

Subject: Cell phone woes
From: "KØHB"
Date: 4/22/2004 11:04 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id: et


"JJ" wrote
|
| And that is why the military and other emergency officials do not
| include cell phones in their emergency planning , but they do include
| amateur radio.
|

I spent a whole career involved in military (Naval) communications
planning, from single units to entire fleets, and never once included
amateur radio as a component of that planning.

You never seerved at a Naval facility that didn't have a MARS station or
used MARS for passing ANY kind of traffic, Hans...???

I know of four military facilities, one of them Naval, that incorporate
MARS teams for emergency purposes, and two of them that utilize RACES teams for
civil coordination in appropriate scenarios.

Civil Defense guys like FEMA in fact do count on amateur radio in
emergency situations.

"Civil Defense guys" include military planners. I just finished
"Heartland Response 04" and I can tell you that there were at least two
uniformed representitives from Penatgon offices there.

Guess they forgot to consult you first, Hans.

Go figure, eh...?!?!

Steve, K4YZ

KØHB wrote:
"JJ" wrote
|
| And that is why the military and other emergency officials do not
| include cell phones in their emergency planning , but they do include
| amateur radio.
|

I spent a whole career involved in military (Naval) communications
planning, from single units to entire fleets, and never once included
amateur radio as a component of that planning.

Civil Defense guys like FEMA in fact do count on amateur radio in
emergency situations.

73, de Hans, K0HB

NORAD, which is definitely military, does include ham radio in their
plans, so does the Office of Homeland Defense.

Steve Robeson K4CAP wrote:

Subject: Cell phone woes
From: "KØHB"
Date: 4/22/2004 11:04 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id: et


"JJ" wrote
|
| And that is why the military and other emergency officials do not
| include cell phones in their emergency planning , but they do include
| amateur radio.
|

I spent a whole career involved in military (Naval) communications
planning, from single units to entire fleets, and never once included
amateur radio as a component of that planning.


You never seerved at a Naval facility that didn't have a MARS station or
used MARS for passing ANY kind of traffic, Hans...???

I know of four military facilities, one of them Naval, that incorporate
MARS teams for emergency purposes, and two of them that utilize RACES teams for
civil coordination in appropriate scenarios.


Civil Defense guys like FEMA in fact do count on amateur radio in
emergency situations.


"Civil Defense guys" include military planners. I just finished
"Heartland Response 04" and I can tell you that there were at least two
uniformed representitives from Penatgon offices there.

Guess they forgot to consult you first, Hans.

Go figure, eh...?!?!

Steve, K4YZ

In the past I certainly ran lots of phone patches for U.S Naval personel
aboard U.S Naval ships to family here in the states. Still even have the
logs I kept of each patch.

"JJ" wrote

| NORAD, which is definitely military, does include ham radio in their
| plans,

bs

"JJ" wrote
| |
| | And that is why the military and other emergency officials do not
| | include cell phones in their emergency planning , but they do
include
| | amateur radio.
| |
|
| I spent a whole career involved in military (Naval) communications
| planning, from single units to entire fleets, and never once
included
| amateur radio as a component of that planning.
|
|
| You never seerved at a Naval facility that didn't have a MARS
station or
| used MARS for passing ANY kind of traffic, Hans...???
|
|
| In the past I certainly ran lots of phone patches for U.S Naval
personel
| aboard U.S Naval ships to family here in the states. Still even have
the
| logs I kept of each patch.

Sorry JJ,

MARS is not amateur radio.

Even if it were, phone patches home to Mom are great morale boosters,
but they not "emergency planning".

73, de Hans, K0HB
ex NNN0GCM (Area Coordinator, Navy/Marine Corps MARS, Guam/Mariana
Islands)

KØHB wrote:
"JJ" wrote

| NORAD, which is definitely military, does include ham radio in their
| plans,

bs

BS all you want, but just a few weeks ago I sat in a seminar with USN
Rear Admiral Daniel Stone, Director of Logistics and Engineering for
NORAD/USNORTHCOM and he says differently.

KØHB wrote:

"JJ" wrote
| |
| | And that is why the military and other emergency officials do not
| | include cell phones in their emergency planning , but they do
include
| | amateur radio.
| |
|
| I spent a whole career involved in military (Naval) communications
| planning, from single units to entire fleets, and never once
included
| amateur radio as a component of that planning.
|
|
| You never seerved at a Naval facility that didn't have a MARS
station or
| used MARS for passing ANY kind of traffic, Hans...???
|
|
| In the past I certainly ran lots of phone patches for U.S Naval
personel
| aboard U.S Naval ships to family here in the states. Still even have
the
| logs I kept of each patch.

Sorry JJ,

MARS is not amateur radio.

Even if it were, phone patches home to Mom are great morale boosters,
but they not "emergency planning".

Where did I say MARS was amateur radio? I did not even mention MARS.
These were phone patches made on the amateur bands by Naval personnel
who held amateur radio licenses.

JJ wrote:
KØHB wrote:
"JJ" wrote

| NORAD, which is definitely military, does include ham radio in their
| plans,

bs

BS all you want, but just a few weeks ago I sat in a seminar with USN
Rear Admiral Daniel Stone, Director of Logistics and Engineering for
NORAD/USNORTHCOM and he says differently.

Was he laughing when you wouldn't tell him your call sign?

"JJ" wrote

| | | And that is why the military and other emergency officials do
not
| | | include cell phones in their emergency planning , but they do

|
| Where did I say MARS was amateur radio? I did not even mention MARS.
| These were phone patches made on the amateur bands by Naval personnel
| who held amateur radio licenses.
|

Been there, done that. It's just amateurs passing third party morale
traffic to other amateurs and has nothing whatever to do with "emergency
planning".

73, de Hans, K0HB

Subject: Cell phone woes
From: "KØHB"
Date: 4/23/2004 12:33 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id: . net


"JJ" wrote

| NORAD, which is definitely military, does include ham radio in their
| plans,

bs

OK, Hans...Prove him wrong. I say you're running off at the mouth.

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Cell phone woes
From: "KØHB"
Date: 4/23/2004 1:11 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id: . net


"JJ" wrote

| In the past I certainly ran lots of phone patches for U.S Naval
personel
| aboard U.S Naval ships to family here in the states. Still even have
the
| logs I kept of each patch.

Sorry JJ,

MARS is not amateur radio.

Even if it were, phone patches home to Mom are great morale boosters,
but they not "emergency planning".


Sorry Hans, MARS IS "Amateur Radio".

With the exception of a very few Active Duty personnel assigned to oversee
the program, every single person in all three branches of MARS are licensed
Amateur Radio Operators.

Prerequisite #1 for ALL branches is licensure in the Amatuer Radio
Service.

ex NNN0GCM (Area Coordinator, Navy/Marine Corps MARS, Guam/Mariana
Islands)

Congratulations. None of it changes the facts about MARS, however.

Formerly NNN0VVU (CHOP, NNN0MOC/MOF, Assistant Islandwide Coordinator for
Okinawa, 1981), AFA1OQ, AAT4SA.

So there....Nyah.....

Steve, K4YZ

Hello, Hans

Does "sparkplug", "sparkplug1", and "KG6AAY" ring a bell ;)

73 from Rochester, NY
Jim AA2QA (formerly WB2OSP whilst on Guam Island)
ps - your point, however, is well taken. If something happens, everyone
pitches in to make thing happen the way they should.

"KØHB" wrote in message
ink.net...

Sorry JJ,

MARS is not amateur radio.

Even if it were, phone patches home to Mom are great morale boosters,
but they not "emergency planning".

73, de Hans, K0HB
ex NNN0GCM (Area Coordinator, Navy/Marine Corps MARS, Guam/Mariana
Islands)







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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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Steve,

Hans was involved in emergencies. He can tell you the story about getting
comms back up to Guam from Saipan (did I get the right island that time,
Hans? ;)

What everyone seems to forget here is that a considerable amount of military
traffic just might be classified. Also, do you want anyone knowing what the
ratio of classified to unclassified traffic is? If only some traffic were
encrypted, if that ratio changed to much more encrypted, people might be
able to draw some guesses as to "something is either happening or about to
happen".

The military has their way of doing things, and, quite frankly, I think they
do it very well indeed. No slam on amateur radio, but this is a very
different situation. Even military radios have mil-spec components and can
operate in conditions that our radios could not stand up to. You might be
in the Middle East in a desert in summer with sandstorms or in Korea in the
wintertime. You might be in a jungle with extensive rain and 100% humidity.
You might be in mountains.

Why would they try to include an unsecure (as opposed to encrypted - which,
by our laws, cannot be encrypted) service with gear that may perform well -
so long as the temperature is between 40 and 90 degrees farenheit with a
relative humidity between 30 and 90 percent and at an altitude not to exceed
10,000 feet?

73 from Rochester, NY
Jim AA2QA

"Steve Robeson K4CAP" wrote in message
...

I see you're ate up with "stupid" today, Hans. Air too rare in MN
these
days?

Not all MARS activities are involved in "emergency planning", however
MANY
installations INCLUDE the MARS program IN thier plans.

Sorry you are too caught up in your own self-righteousness to
acknowledge
it. Seeems you ahve a really bad problem with that lately.

It still doesn't change facts, however.

Sorry. It really IS THAT simple.

Steve, K4YZ



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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.665 / Virus Database: 428 - Release Date: 4/21/04

"Jim Hampton" wrote

| Hello, Hans
|
| Does "sparkplug", "sparkplug1", and "KG6AAY" ring a bell ;)


Indeed it does, Jim. Still exchange holiday correstpondence with both
Norm Spidell and Tom Belvin.

73, de Hans, K0HB

KØHB wrote:

"JJ" wrote

| NORAD, which is definitely military, does include ham radio in their
| plans,

bs


Maybe not for "secret" traffic, but routine stuff would be handled by
hams to
offload the more important communications channels. Or maybe some
"secret" stuff, encrypted and disguised to look like boring routine
traffic, is
handled by hams, but they wouldn't be aware of it.

Subject: Cell phone woes
From: "Jim Hampton"
Date: 4/23/2004 6:30 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

Steve,

Hans was involved in emergencies. He can tell you the story about getting
comms back up to Guam from Saipan (did I get the right island that time,
Hans? ;)

I know he was, Jim. It still doesn't negate the fact that there are
numerous MARS BST's (Base Support Teams) that are part-and-parcel of base
disaster relief programs. Hans would have us believe that this is not true at
ALL. He is in error.

What everyone seems to forget here is that a considerable amount of military
traffic just might be classified. Also, do you want anyone knowing what the
ratio of classified to unclassified traffic is? If only some traffic were
encrypted, if that ratio changed to much more encrypted, people might be
able to draw some guesses as to "something is either happening or about to
happen".

Of course. And base commanders know what's "classified" and what's not.
A MARS BST would nhever even hear about "classified" traffic being passed, let
alone be handed something to pass.

The military has their way of doing things, and, quite frankly, I think they
do it very well indeed. No slam on amateur radio, but this is a very
different situation. Even military radios have mil-spec components and can
operate in conditions that our radios could not stand up to. You might be
in the Middle East in a desert in summer with sandstorms or in Korea in the
wintertime. You might be in a jungle with extensive rain and 100% humidity.
You might be in mountains.

Absolutely. And no one here (except those who keep trying to justify
thier rants by insinuating it's an "only-Amateur" scenario) is suggesting that
such is the case.

This is a forum relative to Amateur Radio. Most of the participants are
in the contiguous 48 United States, and I am going to "assume" that we are
discussing disaster situations involving the civilian populous in general.

In these specific exchanges we have included MARS as a resource for
"disaster communications" at those DoD facilities that have opted to implement
those programs, and certainly thos are facilities located within the United
States' jurisdiction.

Not all (certainly a few rather than a lot) have done so.

I know it's really rhetorical to do so, but since Hans has made a point of
misrepresenting the nature and composition of the MARS programs, I have taken
the stance of disagreeing with him. A L L of the MARS programs are made of
of licensed Amateurs. No Amateur Radio operators, no MARS.

Why would they try to include an unsecure (as opposed to encrypted - which,
by our laws, cannot be encrypted) service with gear that may perform well -
so long as the temperature is between 40 and 90 degrees farenheit with a
relative humidity between 30 and 90 percent and at an altitude not to exceed
10,000 feet?

I don't think JJ was making ANY suggestion of MILOPS in enviromental
extremes, nor was he suggesting any interoperabilty where COMSEC was of
concern.

MARS IS used in many instances for "disaster communications".

MARS is populated by civilian Amateur Radio operators. No...MARS is not
"Amateur Radio", nor is Amateur Radio MARS...However, No Amateur Radio, No
MARS.

My point here has been that Hans is belching out "absolutes" that are
anything BUT absolute, and he has been, in some significant margin, in error in
his representations of the MARS programs as they pertain to "disaster
communications".

73

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Cell phone woes
From: "KØHB"
Date: 4/23/2004 7:03 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id: . net


"Jim Hampton" wrote

| Hello, Hans
|
| Does "sparkplug", "sparkplug1", and "KG6AAY" ring a bell ;)


Indeed it does, Jim. Still exchange holiday correstpondence with both
Norm Spidell and Tom Belvin.

Do they correstpondence back?

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Cell phone woes
From: (William)
Date: 4/23/2004 4:58 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...
Subject: Cell phone woes
From: "KØHB"
Date: 4/22/2004 11:04 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id: et


"JJ" wrote
|
| And that is why the military and other emergency officials do not
| include cell phones in their emergency planning , but they do include
| amateur radio.
|

I spent a whole career involved in military (Naval) communications
planning, from single units to entire fleets, and never once included
amateur radio as a component of that planning.

You never seerved at a Naval facility that didn't have a MARS station
or
used MARS for passing ANY kind of traffic, Hans...???

Steve, you're confusing MARS with Amateur Radio. They are not the
same thing.

No, I am not.

I know of four military facilities, one of them Naval, that
incorporate
MARS teams for emergency purposes,

That's like saying, "I know of military installations that are guarded
by military police,"

No, it's not.

MARS is military. Check out what the acronym means sometime.

I know it quite well.

Military AFFILIATE Radio System.

That means licensed AMATEURS "affiliated" with that particular
MARS/military program.

No Amateur Radio Operators = No MARS.

and two of them that utilize RACES teams for
civil coordination in appropriate scenarios.

"and two of them use contract security services."

Very true.

Civil Defense guys like FEMA in fact do count on amateur radio in
emergency situations.

"Civil Defense guys" include military planners.

Except when one is Master Chief Brakob or MSgt. Burke.

Unless you were assigned the responsibility of incorportating those assets
to your plan by higher headquarters, Brian. Are you stating for the record
that if you are tasked with such a requirement that you'd disobey lawful
orders?

I just finished
"Heartland Response 04" and I can tell you that there were at least two
uniformed representitives from Penatgon offices there.

OK.

Guess they forgot to consult you first, Hans.

Since you've concluded "Heartland Response 04," would you mind giving
us an after action report? Lessons learned?

No, I would not care to give you an "after action report", other than to
say I had a good time and a lot WAS learned/accomplished.

Go figure, eh...?!?!

So does MARS still = ARS?

Only as it pertains to providing the people and resources to HAVE a MARS
program, Brian.

No Amateur Radio Operators = No MARS program. Such is NOT true with
REACT, Civil Air Patrol, the Coast Guard Auxiliary, and other
programs/agencies, although they MAY have some Amateurs participating. An
Amateur ticket is NOT required for them.

Unless, of course, you know of some secret DoD document that would deploy
Active Duty service persons to flesh out the MARS ranks if they all decided to
quit...?!?!

73

Steve, K4YZ

"Jim Hampton" wrote in message
...

| Hans was involved in emergencies. He can tell you the story about
getting
| comms back up to Guam from Saipan (did I get the right island that
time,
| Hans? ;)

Yup, that's the right island grin.

The Crockstar is trying to somehow make MARS into an amateur radio
program, and therefore make his case that military planners include
amateur radio in their plans.

Of course MARS isn't amateur radio, it is the Military Affiliate
Radio Service, which uses MARS frequencies, issues MARS licenses, and
trains it's operators in MARS procedures. The only resemblance it has
to amateur radio is the fact that most (not all) volunteers are
recruited from amateur ranks. Not all amateurs are eligible to be
licensed as MARS operators.

73, de Hans, K0HB

Subject: Cell phone woes
From: "KØHB"
Date: 4/23/2004 8:05 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id: . net


"Jim Hampton" wrote in message
...

| Hans was involved in emergencies. He can tell you the story about
getting
| comms back up to Guam from Saipan (did I get the right island that
time,
| Hans? ;)

Yup, that's the right island grin.

The Crockstar is trying to somehow make MARS into an amateur radio
program, and therefore make his case that military planners include
amateur radio in their plans.

No one's "...trying to somehow make MARS into an amateur radio program".

I guess all that stuff in the various branches of MARS about disaster
planning was just to use up the surplus ink. And those BST's...?!?! Just
another opportunity to have lunch in the O-Club, Hans?

Of course MARS isn't amateur radio, it is the Military Affiliate
Radio Service, which uses MARS frequencies, issues MARS licenses, and
trains it's operators in MARS procedures.

Duhhhh....Ya think...?!?! I believe I said (in not so many words) the
very same thing.

The only resemblance it has
to amateur radio is the fact that most (not all) volunteers are
recruited from amateur ranks. Not all amateurs are eligible to be
licensed as MARS operators.

Just the majority of them.

No Amateur Radio = No MARS program.

It really is just that simple.

Steve, K4YZ

Jim Hampton wrote:


The military has their way of doing things, and, quite frankly, I think they
do it very well indeed. No slam on amateur radio, but this is a very
different situation. Even military radios have mil-spec components and can
operate in conditions that our radios could not stand up to. You might be
in the Middle East in a desert in summer with sandstorms or in Korea in the
wintertime. You might be in a jungle with extensive rain and 100% humidity.
You might be in mountains.

That's why Collins built the S-Line series of equipment, which was also
very widely used by amateurs. I still run an S-Line.

JJ wrote in message ...
KØHB wrote:
"JJ" wrote

| NORAD, which is definitely military, does include ham radio in their
| plans,

bs

BS all you want, but just a few weeks ago I sat in a seminar with USN
Rear Admiral Daniel Stone, Director of Logistics and Engineering for
NORAD/USNORTHCOM and he says differently.

There you go again throwing around other peoples names and titles, but
you don't appear to have one.

No credibility whatsoever.

William wrote:

MARS is NOT "Amateur Radio."

http://www.asc.army.mil/mars/


Mars certainly consists of Radio amateurs, and according to

http://www.asc.army.mil/mars/join.htm

you need to be an amateur.

And since you can ba an amateur without being in MARS, yet cannot be in
MARS without being an Amateur..........

Her is something from from

http://www.ieway.com/~billw/wamars.htm

which seems to contradict that the MARS people aren't involved in
emergency work.

Quote start:


In times of emergencies, whether local, regional, or national, you will
find MARS radio operators handling logistics and emergency
communications. A part of our membership is equipped to "go portable"
with radio and computer equipment to help with health and welfare radio
traffic handling. During the recent flooding, members assisted local
authorities relaying messages from families to their relatives and
friends in regards to their situations. After the earthquakes in
California, members also handled messages from the earthquake victims to
others outside the area. All phone systems were disabled or overloaded
and the only efficient means of communication was by radio. Members of
the MARS program were there to lend a hand.

NNN0ZSJ / NNN0GCC Five

Quote end.


So what is it guys. Is this person "innacurate?


While MARS "isn't involved in emergency work", we might read

http://www.marsgateway.net/docs/AR25-6.pdf

and sneak a peek at Chapter 1 paragraph 6, sentence a.

Let me know what it says. ;^)

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote:
William wrote:

MARS is NOT "Amateur Radio."


http://www.asc.army.mil/mars/


Mars certainly consists of Radio amateurs, and according to

http://www.asc.army.mil/mars/join.htm

you need to be an amateur.

And since you can ba an amateur without being in MARS, yet cannot be in
MARS without being an Amateur..........

Her is something from from

http://www.ieway.com/~billw/wamars.htm

which seems to contradict that the MARS people aren't involved in
emergency work.

Quote start:


In times of emergencies, whether local, regional, or national, you will
find MARS radio operators handling logistics and emergency
communications. A part of our membership is equipped to "go portable"
with radio and computer equipment to help with health and welfare radio
traffic handling. During the recent flooding, members assisted local
authorities relaying messages from families to their relatives and
friends in regards to their situations. After the earthquakes in
California, members also handled messages from the earthquake victims to
others outside the area. All phone systems were disabled or overloaded
and the only efficient means of communication was by radio. Members of
the MARS program were there to lend a hand.

NNN0ZSJ / NNN0GCC Five

Quote end.


So what is it guys. Is this person "innacurate?


While MARS "isn't involved in emergency work", we might read

http://www.marsgateway.net/docs/AR25-6.pdf

and sneak a peek at Chapter 1 paragraph 6, sentence a.

Let me know what it says. ;^)

- Mike KB3EIA -


There you go again Mike, upsetting the apple cart with facts. It seems
that some just can't except the fact that amateur radio and the military
have a close relationship and the military does accept amateur radio as
a valuable service when needed, but not cell phones.

Subject: Cell phone woes
From: (William)
Date: 4/24/2004 11:25 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...
Subject: Cell phone woes
From: "KØHB"
Date: 4/23/2004 1:11 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id: . net

Sorry Hans, MARS IS "Amateur Radio".

Sorry Steve, but MARS is NOT "Amateur Radio."

With the exception of a very few Active Duty personnel assigned to
oversee
the program, every single person in all three branches of MARS are licensed
Amateur Radio Operators.

I don't believe that Ray Collins is an amateur.

Who cares?

Prerequisite #1 for ALL branches is licensure in the Amatuer Radio
Service.

There's never been an exception?

Enough to completely ignore the fact that 99% of all MARS personnel are
licensed Amateurs? I hardly thionk so.

ex NNN0GCM (Area Coordinator, Navy/Marine Corps MARS, Guam/Mariana
Islands)

Congratulations. None of it changes the facts about MARS, however.

Correct. And you have your FACTS wrong.

Which ones, Brian?

YOUR experience in AMRS, please?

MARS is NOT "Amateur Radio."

Formerly NNN0VVU (CHOP, NNN0MOC/MOF, Assistant Islandwide Coordinator
for
Okinawa, 1981), AFA1OQ, AAT4SA.

So there....Nyah.....

Steve, K4YZ

Looks like the military wasted a lot of training on you if you cannot
get even the most basic FACT right.

Now just accept it so that Carl doesn't have to come on here spank you
again.

Hardly, Brian.

So...You going to Dayton?

73

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Cell phone woes
From: (William)
Date: 4/24/2004 11:42 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...

MARS is military. Check out what the acronym means sometime.

I know it quite well.

Military AFFILIATE Radio System.

That means licensed AMATEURS "affiliated" with that particular
MARS/military program.

I am a leader in the BSA.

That's scary.

When I am on my paying job, am I representing the BSA?

Who cares? You may. When I am on my paying job I occassionally get to
discuss CAP, Amateur Radio, EMS and several other "programs" I participate in.

Ergo, you MAY be "representing" BSA when you're on your "paying job"...

When a volunteer is signing AFA3xx, is he or she representing the BSA,
CSA, FFa or the PTA?

Could be.

Nope. And neither are they representing the ARS or the ARRL.

Says you?

No Amateur Radio Operators = No MARS.

Not true. Regulations change every day. The regulations will be
changed to suit new conditions.

Perhaps.

But right now...today...what I stated is true.

TOMORROW they may require that I be wearing Avon when I operate and that I
hang from the shower curtain by my ankles.

But not today.

MARS would have an easier training load by training people off the
street rather than having to retrain a bunch of amateurs.

Unless you were assigned the responsibility of incorportating those
assets
to your plan by higher headquarters, Brian. Are you stating for the record
that if you are tasked with such a requirement that you'd disobey lawful
orders?

Comms was not my functional area, but weather comms were. But I will
state for the record that I'd write anything into the plan or opord
that hhq told me to - as long as it was a legal order.

Then you were not being honest with yourself or faithful to your sworn
oath. Yes, 99.999% of the time I am sure no one would ask you to write dumb
stuff.

No, I would not care to give you an "after action report", other than
to
say I had a good time and a lot WAS learned/accomplished.

Great! You accomplished WAS. Glad you had fun.

Huh...???

Unless, of course, you know of some secret DoD document that would
deploy
Active Duty service persons to flesh out the MARS ranks if they all decided
to
quit...?!?!

I suspect that MARS, if need be, could find volunteers who didn't have
amateur licenses. Isn't that what CAP does? Doesn't CAP use radios
on military frequencies?

What CAP does today is irrelevent to the topic being discussed.

And I have proposed changes to the AFMARS system that would allow CAP
members who have completed "ACUT" (Advanced Communicator User Training) and who
have demonstrated competency to be allowed to enroll in AFMARS.

But that is NOT what the rules allow now, and what MIGHT happen in the
future is irrelevent NOW.

MARS is NOT "Amateur Radio."

Best of Luck, and last this subject.

No Amateur Radio = No MARS.

And best of luck to you.

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Cell phone woes
From: (Steve Robeson K4CAP)
Date: 4/24/2004 5:54 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

YOUR experience in AMRS, please?

My bust.

MARS. But I could ALSO ask what experience you have IN AMRS since it was
an Air Force program related to Amateur Radio.

Steve, K4YZ

"JJ" wrote in message
...
Jim Hampton wrote:


The military has their way of doing things, and, quite frankly, I think
they
do it very well indeed. No slam on amateur radio, but this is a very
different situation. Even military radios have mil-spec components and
can
operate in conditions that our radios could not stand up to. You might
be
in the Middle East in a desert in summer with sandstorms or in Korea in
the
wintertime. You might be in a jungle with extensive rain and 100%
humidity.
You might be in mountains.

That's why Collins built the S-Line series of equipment, which was also
very widely used by amateurs. I still run an S-Line.


Yep, and the S-line was top notch gear and is still good equipment. KG6AAY
had considerable Collins equipment in it when I was there in the mid to late
60s.

73 from Rochester, NY
Jim AA2QA



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JJ wrote in message ...

There you go again Mike, upsetting the apple cart with facts. It seems
that some just can't except the fact that amateur radio and the military
have a close relationship and the military does accept amateur radio as
a valuable service when needed, but not cell phones.

What Mike posted is generally correct.

And nearly anyone who'se anybody in the service has a cell phone on
their hip paid for by you and me. I'd say that the military does
accept cellular telephones as a valuable service daily.

Meanwhile you can call me by name and Mike by name, but we don't know
what to call you.

Subject: Cell phone woes
From: (William)
Date: 4/24/2004 10:25 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...

With the exception of a very few Active Duty personnel assigned to
oversee
the program, every single person in all three branches of MARS are
licensed
Amateur Radio Operators.

I don't believe that Ray Collins is an amateur.

Who cares?

You do. You just said that, "With the exception of a very few Active
Duty personnel assigned to oversee the program, every single person in
all three branches of MARS are licensed Amateur Radio Operators."

Ray is neither Active Duty nor an Amateur Radio Operator. He is
merely the Chief of Air Force MARS.

Then you're one up, after...what...three years of getting your tail caught
under the rockers?

Enough to completely ignore the fact that 99% of all MARS personnel
are
licensed Amateurs? I hardly think so.

Now you're saying that 1% of all MARS personnel are not amateurs?

Do you NEED a specific number, Brian? I am sure we can come up with one,
and I am sure that no matter what, it will STILL be under 10% regardless...

ex NNN0GCM (Area Coordinator, Navy/Marine Corps MARS, Guam/Mariana
Islands)

Congratulations. None of it changes the facts about MARS, however.

Correct. And you have your FACTS wrong.

Which ones, Brian?

For starters, this one: "Sorry Hans, MARS IS "Amateur Radio"."

And without Amateur Radio MARS is...what...?!?!

YOUR experience in AMRS, please?

I've never been in AMRS, or even in AMWAY.

Too bad. It was a lot of fun.

I have been in AF MARS at two assignements; base support team at
Andersen AB in 1990-91, and Scott AFB 1993 - 1999. I did sign up for
Army Mars when I arrived in Korea in 1988, but didn't become active
with it.

OK...that takes you up to five years ago. Thanks.

MARS is NOT "Amateur Radio."

Formerly NNN0VVU (CHOP, NNN0MOC/MOF, Assistant Islandwide
Coordinator
for
Okinawa, 1981), AFA1OQ, AAT4SA.

So there....Nyah.....

Steve, K4YZ

Looks like the military wasted a lot of training on you if you cannot
get even the most basic FACT right.

Now just accept it so that Carl doesn't have to come on here spank you
again.

Hardly, Brian.

So...You going to Dayton?

I have a scouting campout the weekend of the Hamvention.

I am sure you do.

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Cell phone woes
From: (William)
Date: 4/25/2004 10:17 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...

But right now...today...what I stated is true.

Nope, you're "FACTS" are moving targets. You've already backtracked
on your original statement and now say that 1% of MARS personnel are
not Amateurs.

OK...here we go again.

Brian, I have ALWAYS stated that there are SOME "non-Amateur" personnel
involved in MARS. Most of those are Active Duty Armed Forces. You provided
the name of ONE person who is neither Amateur nor ADAF. I will accept that
there are probably folks who fall into that same category for N/MC and Army
MARS. I still contend that the numbers will be around 1%, certainly no more
than 10%.

That means 90% of the load is carried by licensed Amateur Radio operators.


No Amateur Radio = No MARS, that 1-10% notwithstanding.

TOMORROW they may require that I be wearing Avon when I operate and
that I
hang from the shower curtain by my ankles.

But not today.

They won't. Trust me.

Try to stay away from extremes.

Hey...You're the one who can't/won't accept that MARS existence is
directly predicated on the participation of licensed Amateur Radio operators.

You're also the one who has made suggestions about what MARS may or may
not be based upon arbitrary rules changes that COULD be enacted SOME time in
the future.

Not what IS in writing...but what MIGHT happen.

That's "extreme".

Comms was not my functional area, but weather comms were. But I will
state for the record that I'd write anything into the plan or opord
that hhq told me to - as long as it was a legal order.

Then you were not being honest with yourself or faithful to your sworn
oath.

How am I not being honest?

You said you'd write "anything" if it were a "legal order".

Your commanding officer could tell you to write "I am gay" on a blackboard
100 times. That would be a legal order. Would you do it, knowing it wasn't
true? (Or is it?)

Yes, 99.999% of the time I am sure no one would ask you to write dumb
stuff.

Lots of dumb stuff is written here. Arguing minutia over and over and
over is what Carl commented on.

I am impressed that several people express angst over "arguing minutia",
but usually what THEY consider "minutia" is inversely proportional to whether
they find it important to themselves...Not what others consider important.

I, for one, do not consider your assertion of "significant role" in the
use of unlicensed radio services in emergency communications, to be valid, well
founded, nor even wise. You, however, considered it "minutia", no doubt due to
the fact taht it was an indefensible idea.

I suspect that MARS, if need be, could find volunteers who didn't have
amateur licenses. Isn't that what CAP does? Doesn't CAP use radios
on military frequencies?

What CAP does today is irrelevent to the topic being discussed.

Yes, it is. The USAF has set a precedent that they don't require
amateur volunteers to operate radios on military frequencies. Do you
disagree?

Yes, I do. (Disagree)

CAP is NOT MARS. It never was. It NEVER required Amateur licensure in
order to participate. CAP has encouraged Amateurs to participate, and
encourages it's members to consider being licensed. However they are also very
adamant that CAP operators not use Amateur frequencies for CAP business, and
"Amateur-like" communications not be conducted on CAP frequencies.

Apples and oranges, Brian.

And I have proposed changes to the AFMARS system that would allow CAP
members who have completed "ACUT" (Advanced Communicator User Training) and
who
have demonstrated competency to be allowed to enroll in AFMARS.

Hopefully you didn't include Avon products and hanging upside down
from the shower rod in your proposal.

Now please allow me to have an opinion.

You have a CAP volunteer who now wants to add AFMARS volunteer to
his/her credentials. Then the big disaster occurs and CAP calls him
up for duty. Then AFMARS calls him up for duty. Then RACES calls him
up for duty. Then the ARC calls him up for duty. Then the ER calls
him up for duty. Then home calls and say they need him there.

Choose one (1) emergency service to volunteer for and do it well.
When work calls and says they need you there, you go to work. When
home calls and says they need you there, you go home.

I am sure you have a point to make, Brian, but I think the point is that
you're jealous that others are capable of being/doing more than one thing.

If you're a one-thing-at-a-time kinda guy, that's fine. There's nothing
to be ashamed of. Lot's of people can't handle more than one thing at a
time...Or one thing at all...

I think some people collect volunteer credentials like some people
collect 10-10 numbers.

Like I said...If you're a OTAAT kinda guy, that's fine.

Some of us realize that there's only one pass at life and a lot of things
to do and experience.

I like to do a lot of things. I may never "master" any of them, but I
will have done them and been made better for it. And in some cases my having
DONE them has made things better for others.

That's the icing on the cake.

But that is NOT what the rules allow now, and what MIGHT happen in the
future is irrelevent NOW.

If future rules are irrelevant, why do you propose changes?

They are irrelevent at this moment. They may not be tomorrow. Can I hold
you accountable TODAY for a yet-to-be enacted law...?!?!

MARS is NOT "Amateur Radio."

Best of Luck, and last this subject.

No Amateur Radio = No MARS.

MARS is NOT "Amateur Radio."

No Amateur Radio = No MARS.

It really is THAT simple.

Steve, K4YZ