On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 10:38:34 -0400, Mike Coslo wrote:


If the manufacturers produce software that has gaping security flaws,
it is their fault, not mine.


Mike, it's your fault for CONTINUING TO USE IT.

If you've bought 2 Monkeytime wrenches and the handles both snapped and
broke will you go out and buy ANOTHER Monkeytime wrench????

Get it?

Fred Garvin wrote:
On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 10:38:34 -0400, Mike Coslo wrote:



If the manufacturers produce software that has gaping security flaws,
it is their fault, not mine.



Mike, it's your fault for CONTINUING TO USE IT.

If you've bought 2 Monkeytime wrenches and the handles both snapped and
broke will you go out and buy ANOTHER Monkeytime wrench????


I got taken out of context there, Fred. I was responding to the blame
the victim comments. I do use Microsoft's OS's from XP to Win95 (Yet!)
Mostly because it's part of my job. But I don't use the triumvirate. I
only use the OS. If you are using IE and Outlook in addition to the OS,
then you're asking for trouble.

On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 21:10:15 -0400, Mike Coslo wrote:

Fred Garvin wrote:
On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 10:38:34 -0400, Mike Coslo wrote:



If the manufacturers produce software that has gaping security flaws,
it is their fault, not mine.



Mike, it's your fault for CONTINUING TO USE IT.

If you've bought 2 Monkeytime wrenches and the handles both snapped and
broke will you go out and buy ANOTHER Monkeytime wrench????


I got taken out of context there, Fred. I was responding to the blame
the victim comments. I do use Microsoft's OS's from XP to Win95 (Yet!)
Mostly because it's part of my job. But I don't use the triumvirate. I
only use the OS. If you are using IE and Outlook in addition to the OS,
then you're asking for trouble.


I apologize then. Sorry about that.

"Mike Coslo" wrote:

I get bit regardless. My Norton's finds a virus
here and there despite my running a proxy
server, 2 firewalls, and updating the virus def's
all the time.


Then you must be involved in a high-risk activity (such as downloading
illegal software from questionable sources), because I have not seen any of
that on my computers.


(snip) I use both PC's and Macs extensively,
so I feel I can comment knowledgeably. Using
a PC is getting to be operations under siege.
What the PC users consider to be normal
operations is not what normal operations should
be. Meanwhile, I just use my Mac and do the
work I need to do without all the fuss and muss.
(p.s. - you should see all the cool ham radio
software that is out for OSX!)


I also use both extensively and feel you're not being entirely forthright.
The Mac is certainly not without its own "fuss and muss." The sheer volume
of problem-related questions in the Mac newsgroups is clear testament to
that. And the amount and quality of radio related software for a
Windows-based computer dwarfs that available for the Macintosh (the same
with most any catagory of software, or hardware).


If the manufacturers produce software that has
gaping security flaws, it is their fault, not mine.


Yet my experience suggests users are a large part of the problem -
everything from engaging in high-risk activities to not maintaining, and
even by-passing, the installed security features. I manage the IT department
at a local college. I cannot even count how many computers I've seen with
virus problems that also have illegally obtained software installed and
security features disabled to allow the download of that software.

Stewart

Dwight Stewart wrote:
"Mike Coslo" wrote:

I get bit regardless. My Norton's finds a virus
here and there despite my running a proxy
server, 2 firewalls, and updating the virus def's
all the time.



Then you must be involved in a high-risk activity (such as downloading
illegal software from questionable sources), because I have not seen any of
that on my computers.

Thanks for the accusation, Dwight, but no, I don't. BTW, the computer
doesn't get infected, but Norton's isolates the file, and I have to
manually delete it.



(snip) I use both PC's and Macs extensively,
so I feel I can comment knowledgeably. Using
a PC is getting to be operations under siege.
What the PC users consider to be normal
operations is not what normal operations should
be. Meanwhile, I just use my Mac and do the
work I need to do without all the fuss and muss.
(p.s. - you should see all the cool ham radio
software that is out for OSX!)



I also use both extensively and feel you're not being entirely forthright.

Yup, that's why places have entire staffs of PC jockeys that work full
time to beat the things into submission. We who own Macs, at least where
I work, have to maintain their own computers. And at least where I work,
all the Mac users are artists, not computer jocks (with the exception of me)


The Mac is certainly not without its own "fuss and muss." The sheer volume
of problem-related questions in the Mac newsgroups is clear testament to
that. And the amount and quality of radio related software for a
Windows-based computer dwarfs that available for the Macintosh (the same
with most any catagory of software, or hardware).

Yup, but I wanna run what I need to do my job and hobby. I could care
less about the other apps. Sometimes I think PCphiles would insist on
only one type of car for the entire world with that mindset.

I do agree that there are more ham apps on PC, which is a big reason
why I have one at home. I'm likely to pick up an Imac at salvage to try
out the new Mac Ham apps tho'

If the manufacturers produce software that has
gaping security flaws, it is their fault, not mine.



Yet my experience suggests users are a large part of the problem -
everything from engaging in high-risk activities to not maintaining, and
even by-passing, the installed security features. I manage the IT department
at a local college. I cannot even count how many computers I've seen with
virus problems that also have illegally obtained software installed and
security features disabled to allow the download of that software.

I won't deny that under the current state of affairs, people should
practice safe computing. And if a person is running illegal software
their ass should be busted.

My point is that the crap software is so insecure that the bad
situation comes about anyhow.

Glad I go an IT pro here, as I have been wondering something for a
while. Isn't it possible to find these infected devils and isolate them
somehow? Might be a naive question, but I'm not an IT person, just a
program jock.

- Mike KB3EIA -

"Mike Coslo" wrote:

Thanks for the accusation, Dwight, but
no, I don't. BTW, the computer doesn't
get infected, but Norton's isolates the
file, and I have to manually delete it.


It wasn't an accusation, Mike. I was simply pointing out that some
activities more risky than others (and gave an example). If you're not
comfortable with that example, we could use email as another (for example,
no matter how many times you warn people not to, some just can't seem to
resist opening those questionable files).


Yup, that's why places have entire staffs
of PC jockeys that work full time to beat
the things into submission. We who own
Macs, at least where I work, have to
maintain their own computers. And at least
where I work, all the Mac users are artists,
not computer jocks (with the exception of
me)


There is an entire staff because there are a lot of computers, not a
single computer you're maintaining yourself. We have a number of Macs at the
local college and I see many of the same types of problems - missing or
damaged drivers, questionable software installed, tampering with things that
should be left alone, and so on. Some are downright silly. For example,
there isn't a week that goes by that we don't see a computer problem traced
to someone dragging things out of the System folder.


(snip) Sometimes I think PCphiles would
insist on only one type of car for the entire
world with that mindset.


You're assuming I'm a "PCphile." I purchased my first Apple in 1981 and
first Mac in 1986. Even though I used other computers, the Mac was my main
focus for many years. I recently switched focus to Windows, but still own
two PowerBooks to allow me to keep up with events in that platform. The
college is slowly getting rid of the Macs, but a number of teachers still
use them (including my wife).


Glad I go an IT pro here, as I have been
wondering something for a while. Isn't it
possible to find these infected devils and
isolate them somehow? Might be a naive
question, but I'm not an IT person, just a
program jock.


Since they're very unpredictable, it's not really that easy on an active
computer. Most large IT departments have computers sat aside to solely watch
how these things work and what exactly they do. That information is then
used to develop tactics to deal with threats to other computers. The
information is also widely shared, and can usually be found on the internet
very shortly after a new threat is discovered. Indeed, by the time we see
the results of a new virus or whatever, information about it is usually
already available.

Dwight Stewart

"Dr. Anton T. Squeegee" wrote in message
...
In article , johnson38
@nospam.alvillage.net says...

snippety

So I just want to say "**** you!" to the ignorant IE and OE users who
defend their use of that hole-ridden, abominable software beyond
reason. YOU are one of the major problems with today's Internet.

So... Instead of wasting energy cussing at 'them,' why not HELP
someone, in a nice way, to migrate AWAY from IE and into something like
Opera or Firefox?

Oh, I forgot... It's easier and quicker to simply swear at someone
than it is to do something constructive.


--
Dr. Anton T. Squeegee, Director, Dutch Surrealist Plumbing Institute.
(Known to some as Bruce Lane, ARS KC7GR,
kyrrin (a/t) bluefeathertech[d=o=t]calm -- www.bluefeathertech.com
"If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped
with surreal ports?"

Yes. Opera. Foxfire. I think I just got an alert last week that Foxfire
has been found to have a security hole for which there is no known fix (as
of yet). Opera? It has holes. You can subscribe to these government
alerts and see for yourself.

BTW, we point fingers at browsers .... uh ... do you know that Real Player
has problems? Didn't think so. How about file sharing programs? Hehehe
HAR DE HAR HAR.

The list is virtually endless. Various instant messaging programs. Some
stuff that you wouldn't think could even cause a security problem.

I fixed a PC a few weeks ago. Some alleged tech "fixed" the computer.
Returned it sans anti-virus and firewall. Also didn't do updates. It got
hijacked. It took me quite a bit of effort which included removing spyware,
getting a firewall in place, anti-virus in place, and an on-line scan to
remove the last pieces of that nasty thing. I had even been locked out of
regedit! Finally, everything was working except I couldn't get the home
page back. Since I could get into regedit by this time, I simply edited the
registry and it is finally working fine. The problem, in this case, wasn't
with Microsoft or the users. It was a lazy tech that didn't want to do the
whole job.


Best regards from Rochester, NY
Jim AA2QA



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.711 / Virus Database: 467 - Release Date: 6/25/04

Jim Hampton wrote:
"Dr. Anton T. Squeegee" wrote in message
...

In article , johnson38
says...

snippety

So I just want to say "**** you!" to the ignorant IE and OE users who
defend their use of that hole-ridden, abominable software beyond
reason. YOU are one of the major problems with today's Internet.

So... Instead of wasting energy cussing at 'them,' why not HELP
someone, in a nice way, to migrate AWAY from IE and into something like
Opera or Firefox?

Oh, I forgot... It's easier and quicker to simply swear at someone
than it is to do something constructive.


--
Dr. Anton T. Squeegee, Director, Dutch Surrealist Plumbing Institute.
(Known to some as Bruce Lane, ARS KC7GR,
kyrrin (a/t) bluefeathertech[d=o=t]calm -- www.bluefeathertech.com
"If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped
with surreal ports?"


Yes. Opera. Foxfire. I think I just got an alert last week that Foxfire
has been found to have a security hole for which there is no known fix (as
of yet). Opera? It has holes. You can subscribe to these government
alerts and see for yourself.

BTW, we point fingers at browsers .... uh ... do you know that Real Player
has problems? Didn't think so. How about file sharing programs? Hehehe
HAR DE HAR HAR.

You use Real Player? Just using it is a security issue.


The list is virtually endless. Various instant messaging programs. Some
stuff that you wouldn't think could even cause a security problem.

Instant messaging services is a leading source of spyware. Don't use it.


I fixed a PC a few weeks ago. Some alleged tech "fixed" the computer.
Returned it sans anti-virus and firewall. Also didn't do updates. It got
hijacked. It took me quite a bit of effort which included removing spyware,
getting a firewall in place, anti-virus in place, and an on-line scan to
remove the last pieces of that nasty thing. I had even been locked out of
regedit! Finally, everything was working except I couldn't get the home
page back. Since I could get into regedit by this time, I simply edited the
registry and it is finally working fine. The problem, in this case, wasn't
with Microsoft or the users. It was a lazy tech that didn't want to do the
whole job.

Blaming the victim again, Jim. Like blaming a sexual assault victim
because she was pretty and dressed nice.


You seem to accept the flaws as inevitable and a normal part of
operating. you would never accept a car that has as many flaws as a
typical PC OS.

Browsers and mail readers should never never ever be integrated with
OS's. Ports should be inaccessible unless you tell it to be accessible.
Address books should be encrypted (although there is a chicken and egg
thing going on in that case) The list goes on and on.

Demand competent software!

- Mike KB3EIA -

On or about Sun, 27 Jun 2004 21:33:42 +0000, "Chris"
wrote about the following in article
:

So I just want to say "**** you!" to the ignorant IE and OE users who
defend their use of that hole-ridden, abominable software beyond reason.
YOU are one of the major problems with today's Internet.

From your own news headers --
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409

Please take your own advice


--
Alex / AB2RC
Yaesu FT100 software for Linux http://www.qsl.net/kc2ivl
Why do they call Radio "Wireless", between my shack and antennas
I must have over 1500 feet of wire!

Chris wrote a troll.

I use Nutscrape myself..... :-)