Jim Hampton wrote:
Chris,

You are the one who is displaying ignorance. There are constant holes and
security problems with not only many browsers, but operating systems as
well. Apple is probably the only one with little or no viruses being
written to attack it as it has a small presence. Unix (Linux) has holes.
As far as browsers, Netscape, Opera, you name it, have security flaws. The
reason O.E. is mentioned so much as it has a large following and is,
therefore, an ideal target for worm/virus writers.

The so called integration that IE and Outlook have with the operating
system makes for more security flaws than other systems. All the bad
guys have to have is access to the machine - Internet Explorer - then
access to the OS - that integration, through either a door put in there
purposely or inadvertently, and there you have it. It isn't a good
system security wise. And we should demand more. The typical PC user
apparently doesn't have very high expectations.


Other systems have the occasional flaw, just not so darn many of them.


BUT!


The real disservice that computer geeks have foisted on the world is
the idea of "one platform, one OS".

The PC world is going to treat us to the computer equivalent of the
Irish Potato Famine one of these days. We are inbred, we are
monoculture. We all have the same vulnerabilities.

What we need is machines that are enough different that what takes one
out does not take all the others out. We also need operators that are
not so far into the woods that they can't see the trees.



*Everyone* needs good antivirus software (updated *daily*) on their system
as well as a good firewall (also updated).

I need that on my PC's. My Mac doesn't.


Everyone also needs a good
anti-spyware running on their system - and it is also a good idea to have
one that runs in background and blocks incoming spyware off the internet as
you browse.

I need that on my PC's for sure.


I'm seeing quite a bit of blocking from Yahoo Groups (attempted
incoming spyware).

Oh yes. It is amazing the source of some of the spyware.


Last, but most to the point of your post, everyone should be checking daily
(whether automatically or manually) for updates to their operating system
and browser. These are constantly brought out and if you bother to check
(why don't I think you are well informed?), you will find patches coming out
almost constantly for many different browsers and operating systems.

Here is another problem though. These updates not only protect your
computer by patching security holes, they sometimes protect your
computer by causing it to cease operating. (a computer that doesn't work
catches no virii) On my PC, I will usually wait a few days in order to
hear what problems the "updates" are causing.


If you don't do this, you will eventually get bit regardless of what
operating system you use.

I get bit regardless. My Norton's finds a virus here and there despite
my running a proxy server, 2 firewalls, and updating the virus def's all
the time.

I use both PC's and Macs extensively, so I feel I can comment
knowledgeably. Using a PC is getting to be operations under siege. What
the PC users consider to be normal operations is not what normal
operations should be. Meanwhile, I just use my Mac and do the work I
need to do without all the fuss and muss. (p.s. - you should see all the
cool ham radio software that is out for OSX!)

And my final note is that you have done just what the original poster
noted in his post. (albeit his more crudely) That is to blame it on the
user. That doesn't flush. Don't blame the victim. We can't expect all
users to be IT professionals or even highly competent.

If the manufacturers produce software that has gaping security flaws,
it is their fault, not mine.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote:
Last, but most to the point of your post, everyone should be checking
daily
(whether automatically or manually) for updates to their operating system
and browser...

..... and herein lies another problem: Microsoft
won't keep any of the old updates available. I had to reload
Windows 98 (you can KEEP XP) and now I find
that almost none of the older "security upgrades" are available.
Or at least, I can't find them. Not only that, but this stupid OS
is probably telling the database I still have the upgrades
when I don't. This seriously sucks. Or I may just not know
how to go about it. That's certainly possible.

On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 10:38:34 -0400, Mike Coslo wrote:


If the manufacturers produce software that has gaping security flaws,
it is their fault, not mine.


Mike, it's your fault for CONTINUING TO USE IT.

If you've bought 2 Monkeytime wrenches and the handles both snapped and
broke will you go out and buy ANOTHER Monkeytime wrench????

Get it?

Fred Garvin wrote:
On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 10:38:34 -0400, Mike Coslo wrote:



If the manufacturers produce software that has gaping security flaws,
it is their fault, not mine.



Mike, it's your fault for CONTINUING TO USE IT.

If you've bought 2 Monkeytime wrenches and the handles both snapped and
broke will you go out and buy ANOTHER Monkeytime wrench????


I got taken out of context there, Fred. I was responding to the blame
the victim comments. I do use Microsoft's OS's from XP to Win95 (Yet!)
Mostly because it's part of my job. But I don't use the triumvirate. I
only use the OS. If you are using IE and Outlook in addition to the OS,
then you're asking for trouble.

On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 21:10:15 -0400, Mike Coslo wrote:

Fred Garvin wrote:
On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 10:38:34 -0400, Mike Coslo wrote:



If the manufacturers produce software that has gaping security flaws,
it is their fault, not mine.



Mike, it's your fault for CONTINUING TO USE IT.

If you've bought 2 Monkeytime wrenches and the handles both snapped and
broke will you go out and buy ANOTHER Monkeytime wrench????


I got taken out of context there, Fred. I was responding to the blame
the victim comments. I do use Microsoft's OS's from XP to Win95 (Yet!)
Mostly because it's part of my job. But I don't use the triumvirate. I
only use the OS. If you are using IE and Outlook in addition to the OS,
then you're asking for trouble.


I apologize then. Sorry about that.

"Mike Coslo" wrote:

I get bit regardless. My Norton's finds a virus
here and there despite my running a proxy
server, 2 firewalls, and updating the virus def's
all the time.


Then you must be involved in a high-risk activity (such as downloading
illegal software from questionable sources), because I have not seen any of
that on my computers.


(snip) I use both PC's and Macs extensively,
so I feel I can comment knowledgeably. Using
a PC is getting to be operations under siege.
What the PC users consider to be normal
operations is not what normal operations should
be. Meanwhile, I just use my Mac and do the
work I need to do without all the fuss and muss.
(p.s. - you should see all the cool ham radio
software that is out for OSX!)


I also use both extensively and feel you're not being entirely forthright.
The Mac is certainly not without its own "fuss and muss." The sheer volume
of problem-related questions in the Mac newsgroups is clear testament to
that. And the amount and quality of radio related software for a
Windows-based computer dwarfs that available for the Macintosh (the same
with most any catagory of software, or hardware).


If the manufacturers produce software that has
gaping security flaws, it is their fault, not mine.


Yet my experience suggests users are a large part of the problem -
everything from engaging in high-risk activities to not maintaining, and
even by-passing, the installed security features. I manage the IT department
at a local college. I cannot even count how many computers I've seen with
virus problems that also have illegally obtained software installed and
security features disabled to allow the download of that software.

Stewart

Dwight Stewart wrote:
"Mike Coslo" wrote:

I get bit regardless. My Norton's finds a virus
here and there despite my running a proxy
server, 2 firewalls, and updating the virus def's
all the time.



Then you must be involved in a high-risk activity (such as downloading
illegal software from questionable sources), because I have not seen any of
that on my computers.

Thanks for the accusation, Dwight, but no, I don't. BTW, the computer
doesn't get infected, but Norton's isolates the file, and I have to
manually delete it.



(snip) I use both PC's and Macs extensively,
so I feel I can comment knowledgeably. Using
a PC is getting to be operations under siege.
What the PC users consider to be normal
operations is not what normal operations should
be. Meanwhile, I just use my Mac and do the
work I need to do without all the fuss and muss.
(p.s. - you should see all the cool ham radio
software that is out for OSX!)



I also use both extensively and feel you're not being entirely forthright.

Yup, that's why places have entire staffs of PC jockeys that work full
time to beat the things into submission. We who own Macs, at least where
I work, have to maintain their own computers. And at least where I work,
all the Mac users are artists, not computer jocks (with the exception of me)


The Mac is certainly not without its own "fuss and muss." The sheer volume
of problem-related questions in the Mac newsgroups is clear testament to
that. And the amount and quality of radio related software for a
Windows-based computer dwarfs that available for the Macintosh (the same
with most any catagory of software, or hardware).

Yup, but I wanna run what I need to do my job and hobby. I could care
less about the other apps. Sometimes I think PCphiles would insist on
only one type of car for the entire world with that mindset.

I do agree that there are more ham apps on PC, which is a big reason
why I have one at home. I'm likely to pick up an Imac at salvage to try
out the new Mac Ham apps tho'

If the manufacturers produce software that has
gaping security flaws, it is their fault, not mine.



Yet my experience suggests users are a large part of the problem -
everything from engaging in high-risk activities to not maintaining, and
even by-passing, the installed security features. I manage the IT department
at a local college. I cannot even count how many computers I've seen with
virus problems that also have illegally obtained software installed and
security features disabled to allow the download of that software.

I won't deny that under the current state of affairs, people should
practice safe computing. And if a person is running illegal software
their ass should be busted.

My point is that the crap software is so insecure that the bad
situation comes about anyhow.

Glad I go an IT pro here, as I have been wondering something for a
while. Isn't it possible to find these infected devils and isolate them
somehow? Might be a naive question, but I'm not an IT person, just a
program jock.

- Mike KB3EIA -

"Mike Coslo" wrote:

Thanks for the accusation, Dwight, but
no, I don't. BTW, the computer doesn't
get infected, but Norton's isolates the
file, and I have to manually delete it.


It wasn't an accusation, Mike. I was simply pointing out that some
activities more risky than others (and gave an example). If you're not
comfortable with that example, we could use email as another (for example,
no matter how many times you warn people not to, some just can't seem to
resist opening those questionable files).


Yup, that's why places have entire staffs
of PC jockeys that work full time to beat
the things into submission. We who own
Macs, at least where I work, have to
maintain their own computers. And at least
where I work, all the Mac users are artists,
not computer jocks (with the exception of
me)


There is an entire staff because there are a lot of computers, not a
single computer you're maintaining yourself. We have a number of Macs at the
local college and I see many of the same types of problems - missing or
damaged drivers, questionable software installed, tampering with things that
should be left alone, and so on. Some are downright silly. For example,
there isn't a week that goes by that we don't see a computer problem traced
to someone dragging things out of the System folder.


(snip) Sometimes I think PCphiles would
insist on only one type of car for the entire
world with that mindset.


You're assuming I'm a "PCphile." I purchased my first Apple in 1981 and
first Mac in 1986. Even though I used other computers, the Mac was my main
focus for many years. I recently switched focus to Windows, but still own
two PowerBooks to allow me to keep up with events in that platform. The
college is slowly getting rid of the Macs, but a number of teachers still
use them (including my wife).


Glad I go an IT pro here, as I have been
wondering something for a while. Isn't it
possible to find these infected devils and
isolate them somehow? Might be a naive
question, but I'm not an IT person, just a
program jock.


Since they're very unpredictable, it's not really that easy on an active
computer. Most large IT departments have computers sat aside to solely watch
how these things work and what exactly they do. That information is then
used to develop tactics to deal with threats to other computers. The
information is also widely shared, and can usually be found on the internet
very shortly after a new threat is discovered. Indeed, by the time we see
the results of a new virus or whatever, information about it is usually
already available.

Dwight Stewart