CERT says to stop using IE, but will the shit heads listen?
 

In article , johnson38
@nospam.alvillage.net says...

snippety

So I just want to say "**** you!" to the ignorant IE and OE users who
defend their use of that hole-ridden, abominable software beyond
reason. YOU are one of the major problems with today's Internet.

So... Instead of wasting energy cussing at 'them,' why not HELP
someone, in a nice way, to migrate AWAY from IE and into something like
Opera or Firefox?

Oh, I forgot... It's easier and quicker to simply swear at someone
than it is to do something constructive.


--
Dr. Anton T. Squeegee, Director, Dutch Surrealist Plumbing Institute.
(Known to some as Bruce Lane, ARS KC7GR,
kyrrin (a/t) bluefeathertech[d=o=t]calm -- www.bluefeathertech.com
"If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped
with surreal ports?"

Chris,

You are the one who is displaying ignorance. There are constant holes and
security problems with not only many browsers, but operating systems as
well. Apple is probably the only one with little or no viruses being
written to attack it as it has a small presence. Unix (Linux) has holes.
As far as browsers, Netscape, Opera, you name it, have security flaws. The
reason O.E. is mentioned so much as it has a large following and is,
therefore, an ideal target for worm/virus writers.

*Everyone* needs good antivirus software (updated *daily*) on their system
as well as a good firewall (also updated). Everyone also needs a good
anti-spyware running on their system - and it is also a good idea to have
one that runs in background and blocks incoming spyware off the internet as
you browse. I'm seeing quite a bit of blocking from Yahoo Groups (attempted
incoming spyware).

Last, but most to the point of your post, everyone should be checking daily
(whether automatically or manually) for updates to their operating system
and browser. These are constantly brought out and if you bother to check
(why don't I think you are well informed?), you will find patches coming out
almost constantly for many different browsers and operating systems.

If you don't do this, you will eventually get bit regardless of what
operating system you use.


73 from Rochester, NY
Jim

"Chris" wrote in message
...
Every time another IE hole is discovered, the **** heads say things
like "It isn't the browser; it's the user," and then they go right on
using IE. Now the Computer Emergency Response Team (CERT) has joined
the chorus of people which includes places like TechTV and has said
that IE is just plain insecure. See

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Jun25.html,

and be sure to read all of the way to the bottom of the article.

It's not that I care about the **** heads themselves, it's that they
allow themselves to be compromised, and then the rest of us have to
pay for it in some way.

Are you getting too much spam? Blame the infected **** heads whose
computers are acting as spam relays.

Is your ISP putting restrictions on email that really hurt? Blame the
infected **** heads again for overloading your ISP's servers or
networks.

So I just want to say "**** you!" to the ignorant IE and OE users who
defend their use of that hole-ridden, abominable software beyond
reason. YOU are one of the major problems with today's Internet.


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.711 / Virus Database: 467 - Release Date: 6/25/04

"Dr. Anton T. Squeegee" wrote in message
...
In article , johnson38
@nospam.alvillage.net says...

snippety

So I just want to say "**** you!" to the ignorant IE and OE users who
defend their use of that hole-ridden, abominable software beyond
reason. YOU are one of the major problems with today's Internet.

So... Instead of wasting energy cussing at 'them,' why not HELP
someone, in a nice way, to migrate AWAY from IE and into something like
Opera or Firefox?

Oh, I forgot... It's easier and quicker to simply swear at someone
than it is to do something constructive.


--
Dr. Anton T. Squeegee, Director, Dutch Surrealist Plumbing Institute.
(Known to some as Bruce Lane, ARS KC7GR,
kyrrin (a/t) bluefeathertech[d=o=t]calm -- www.bluefeathertech.com
"If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped
with surreal ports?"

Yes. Opera. Foxfire. I think I just got an alert last week that Foxfire
has been found to have a security hole for which there is no known fix (as
of yet). Opera? It has holes. You can subscribe to these government
alerts and see for yourself.

BTW, we point fingers at browsers .... uh ... do you know that Real Player
has problems? Didn't think so. How about file sharing programs? Hehehe
HAR DE HAR HAR.

The list is virtually endless. Various instant messaging programs. Some
stuff that you wouldn't think could even cause a security problem.

I fixed a PC a few weeks ago. Some alleged tech "fixed" the computer.
Returned it sans anti-virus and firewall. Also didn't do updates. It got
hijacked. It took me quite a bit of effort which included removing spyware,
getting a firewall in place, anti-virus in place, and an on-line scan to
remove the last pieces of that nasty thing. I had even been locked out of
regedit! Finally, everything was working except I couldn't get the home
page back. Since I could get into regedit by this time, I simply edited the
registry and it is finally working fine. The problem, in this case, wasn't
with Microsoft or the users. It was a lazy tech that didn't want to do the
whole job.


Best regards from Rochester, NY
Jim AA2QA



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.711 / Virus Database: 467 - Release Date: 6/25/04

"Jim Hampton" wrote in message
...
Chris,

You are the one who is displaying ignorance. There are constant holes and
security problems with not only many browsers, but operating systems as
well. Apple is probably the only one with little or no viruses being
written to attack it as it has a small presence. Unix (Linux) has holes.
As far as browsers, Netscape, Opera, you name it, have security flaws.
The
reason O.E. is mentioned so much as it has a large following and is,
therefore, an ideal target for worm/virus writers.

*Everyone* needs good antivirus software (updated *daily*) on their system
as well as a good firewall (also updated). Everyone also needs a good
anti-spyware running on their system - and it is also a good idea to have
one that runs in background and blocks incoming spyware off the internet
as
you browse. I'm seeing quite a bit of blocking from Yahoo Groups
(attempted
incoming spyware).

Last, but most to the point of your post, everyone should be checking
daily
(whether automatically or manually) for updates to their operating system
and browser. These are constantly brought out and if you bother to check
(why don't I think you are well informed?), you will find patches coming
out
almost constantly for many different browsers and operating systems.

If you don't do this, you will eventually get bit regardless of what
operating system you use.




Three cheers for Mr. Hampton. Spear a few elitists. :) I know for a fact
that *nix systems are every bit as vulnerable as Windoze systems, since my
spouse does computer repairs for the US military, and almost everything they
use is a *nix based system. They have problems with hackers on a regular
basis, even through their substantial firewalls.

Point being, the only way you can begin to be sure you are protected is to
have a good firewall and A/V, and keep them running and up to date. The only
times I have EVER had problems with unauthorized ingress to my system have
been when both my firewall and A/V have been down (after a hardware failure
usually)...

"Chris" wrote



Truly, that's a ****head response.


For more response, point your non-IE browser to
http://www.amishrakefight.org/gfy

Subject: CERT says to stop using IE, but will the **** heads listen?
From: "Jim Hampton"
Date: 6/27/2004 10:47 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:


There are constant holes and
security problems with not only many browsers, but operating systems as
well.

I can't help but wonder if Microsoft and the others don't engineer these
things in, just so they can "come to the rescue" with a patch.

Munchausen's By Proxy Server...?!?!

(ducking ! ! !)

73

Steve, K4YZ

"Chris" wrote in message
...
snip

And you are changing the subject in typical ****head fashion. The
inescapable fact remains that CERT - people who collectively know more
about security than you ever did in your best times - has recommended
that IE be DROPPED.

They didn't say anything about operating systems.

They didn't say a thing about anything other than Internet Explorer,
but like the ****head you are, you are going to stubbornly cling to
your religious icons, including IE, and so you change the subject.

And it IS a religion, ****head, because there is no logic at all
behind ignoring all of the security experts.

99% of all zombied machines were zombied through IE and OE security
holes - many of them YET TO BE FIXED BY MICROSOFT! And you worry
about obscure holes elsewhere?

If the dam is broken, ****head, you patch the biggest hole first
before you tend to the little leaks. The biggest hole has been
identified by CERT and by TechTV, and yet you rattle on about all of
the little holes you imagine you can see, while ignoring the giant
one?

Truly, that's a ****head response.

No wonder the net is going to hell. It's full of ****heads who think
the way you do.

I am *not* changing the subject. There are a *ton* of security holes in
other software too - including Real Player and others.

If everyone changed to Linux, you can bet the virus and worm writers would
be writing most of the stuff for Unix systems.

As to CERT .... that is where I am getting my information about all of those
other "secure" systems and browsers. The fact remains that Internet
Explorer, Outlook, and Outlook Express are popular, thus the huge number of
viruses written for them - not that they are more or less secure than other
browsers. If one keeps a firewall in place, anti-virus in place,
anti-spyware in place, updates them daily, and *uses* them properly, one is
as protected as one can be.

BTW, please ZBM-2. I suspect I'm dealing with someone with a very modest
double-digit IQ here.


With all due regards,
Jim AA2QA



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.712 / Virus Database: 468 - Release Date: 6/27/04

On or about Sun, 27 Jun 2004 21:33:42 +0000, "Chris"
wrote about the following in article
:

So I just want to say "**** you!" to the ignorant IE and OE users who
defend their use of that hole-ridden, abominable software beyond reason.
YOU are one of the major problems with today's Internet.

From your own news headers --
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409

Please take your own advice


--
Alex / AB2RC
Yaesu FT100 software for Linux http://www.qsl.net/kc2ivl
Why do they call Radio "Wireless", between my shack and antennas
I must have over 1500 feet of wire!

Chris wrote a troll.

I use Nutscrape myself..... :-)

So I just want to say "**** you!" to the ignorant IE and OE users who
defend their use of that hole-ridden, abominable software beyond
reason. YOU are one of the major problems with today's Internet.

Yepper the bum society rears its head again ...... over 400k words in the
English language, or so I 've heard, and the universal sentence enhancer is
always to be found .... pity ...

73 KI3R Tom Popovic Belle Vernon Pa.

Hello, Dan

True enough, but the fact is that the problem is the screwball folks that
get their jollies writing the darn things in the first place.

Yes, I.E. is a major problem - mostly because it is popular and your
comparison with cars and trucks makes sense.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I'm having fits getting my dial-up to work
properly and still have the DSL.

73 from Rochester, NY
Jim AA2QA

"Dan" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 17:25:36 GMT, "Jim Hampton"
wrote:

If everyone changed to Linux, you can bet the virus and worm writers
would
be writing most of the stuff for Unix systems.

Indeed. This whole notion of "everyone should switch so all of these
problems go away" is naieve at best, plain stupid at worst.

It's like looking at stats for fuel usage of passenger cars and
trucks, noting that cars make up most of the usage of gas, and trucks
use a small percentage, then saying "Gee, we should all start driving
trucks to save gas"!

Hell-o!

Dan

Grundig S800, S650, S700, YB400, YB550PE
Degen DE1102, Kaito KA1102
Drake R8, Radio Shack DX-440
E. H. Scott 23 tube Imperial Allwave in Tasman cabinet (1936)


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.712 / Virus Database: 468 - Release Date: 6/28/04

Jim Hampton wrote:
Chris,

You are the one who is displaying ignorance. There are constant holes and
security problems with not only many browsers, but operating systems as
well. Apple is probably the only one with little or no viruses being
written to attack it as it has a small presence. Unix (Linux) has holes.
As far as browsers, Netscape, Opera, you name it, have security flaws. The
reason O.E. is mentioned so much as it has a large following and is,
therefore, an ideal target for worm/virus writers.

The so called integration that IE and Outlook have with the operating
system makes for more security flaws than other systems. All the bad
guys have to have is access to the machine - Internet Explorer - then
access to the OS - that integration, through either a door put in there
purposely or inadvertently, and there you have it. It isn't a good
system security wise. And we should demand more. The typical PC user
apparently doesn't have very high expectations.


Other systems have the occasional flaw, just not so darn many of them.


BUT!


The real disservice that computer geeks have foisted on the world is
the idea of "one platform, one OS".

The PC world is going to treat us to the computer equivalent of the
Irish Potato Famine one of these days. We are inbred, we are
monoculture. We all have the same vulnerabilities.

What we need is machines that are enough different that what takes one
out does not take all the others out. We also need operators that are
not so far into the woods that they can't see the trees.



*Everyone* needs good antivirus software (updated *daily*) on their system
as well as a good firewall (also updated).

I need that on my PC's. My Mac doesn't.


Everyone also needs a good
anti-spyware running on their system - and it is also a good idea to have
one that runs in background and blocks incoming spyware off the internet as
you browse.

I need that on my PC's for sure.


I'm seeing quite a bit of blocking from Yahoo Groups (attempted
incoming spyware).

Oh yes. It is amazing the source of some of the spyware.


Last, but most to the point of your post, everyone should be checking daily
(whether automatically or manually) for updates to their operating system
and browser. These are constantly brought out and if you bother to check
(why don't I think you are well informed?), you will find patches coming out
almost constantly for many different browsers and operating systems.

Here is another problem though. These updates not only protect your
computer by patching security holes, they sometimes protect your
computer by causing it to cease operating. (a computer that doesn't work
catches no virii) On my PC, I will usually wait a few days in order to
hear what problems the "updates" are causing.


If you don't do this, you will eventually get bit regardless of what
operating system you use.

I get bit regardless. My Norton's finds a virus here and there despite
my running a proxy server, 2 firewalls, and updating the virus def's all
the time.

I use both PC's and Macs extensively, so I feel I can comment
knowledgeably. Using a PC is getting to be operations under siege. What
the PC users consider to be normal operations is not what normal
operations should be. Meanwhile, I just use my Mac and do the work I
need to do without all the fuss and muss. (p.s. - you should see all the
cool ham radio software that is out for OSX!)

And my final note is that you have done just what the original poster
noted in his post. (albeit his more crudely) That is to blame it on the
user. That doesn't flush. Don't blame the victim. We can't expect all
users to be IT professionals or even highly competent.

If the manufacturers produce software that has gaping security flaws,
it is their fault, not mine.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Jim Hampton wrote:
"Dr. Anton T. Squeegee" wrote in message
...

In article , johnson38
says...

snippety

So I just want to say "**** you!" to the ignorant IE and OE users who
defend their use of that hole-ridden, abominable software beyond
reason. YOU are one of the major problems with today's Internet.

So... Instead of wasting energy cussing at 'them,' why not HELP
someone, in a nice way, to migrate AWAY from IE and into something like
Opera or Firefox?

Oh, I forgot... It's easier and quicker to simply swear at someone
than it is to do something constructive.


--
Dr. Anton T. Squeegee, Director, Dutch Surrealist Plumbing Institute.
(Known to some as Bruce Lane, ARS KC7GR,
kyrrin (a/t) bluefeathertech[d=o=t]calm -- www.bluefeathertech.com
"If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped
with surreal ports?"


Yes. Opera. Foxfire. I think I just got an alert last week that Foxfire
has been found to have a security hole for which there is no known fix (as
of yet). Opera? It has holes. You can subscribe to these government
alerts and see for yourself.

BTW, we point fingers at browsers .... uh ... do you know that Real Player
has problems? Didn't think so. How about file sharing programs? Hehehe
HAR DE HAR HAR.

You use Real Player? Just using it is a security issue.


The list is virtually endless. Various instant messaging programs. Some
stuff that you wouldn't think could even cause a security problem.

Instant messaging services is a leading source of spyware. Don't use it.


I fixed a PC a few weeks ago. Some alleged tech "fixed" the computer.
Returned it sans anti-virus and firewall. Also didn't do updates. It got
hijacked. It took me quite a bit of effort which included removing spyware,
getting a firewall in place, anti-virus in place, and an on-line scan to
remove the last pieces of that nasty thing. I had even been locked out of
regedit! Finally, everything was working except I couldn't get the home
page back. Since I could get into regedit by this time, I simply edited the
registry and it is finally working fine. The problem, in this case, wasn't
with Microsoft or the users. It was a lazy tech that didn't want to do the
whole job.

Blaming the victim again, Jim. Like blaming a sexual assault victim
because she was pretty and dressed nice.


You seem to accept the flaws as inevitable and a normal part of
operating. you would never accept a car that has as many flaws as a
typical PC OS.

Browsers and mail readers should never never ever be integrated with
OS's. Ports should be inaccessible unless you tell it to be accessible.
Address books should be encrypted (although there is a chicken and egg
thing going on in that case) The list goes on and on.

Demand competent software!

- Mike KB3EIA -

Brenda Ann Dyer wrote:
"Jim Hampton" wrote in message
...

Chris,

You are the one who is displaying ignorance. There are constant holes and
security problems with not only many browsers, but operating systems as
well. Apple is probably the only one with little or no viruses being
written to attack it as it has a small presence. Unix (Linux) has holes.
As far as browsers, Netscape, Opera, you name it, have security flaws.

The

reason O.E. is mentioned so much as it has a large following and is,
therefore, an ideal target for worm/virus writers.

*Everyone* needs good antivirus software (updated *daily*) on their system
as well as a good firewall (also updated). Everyone also needs a good
anti-spyware running on their system - and it is also a good idea to have
one that runs in background and blocks incoming spyware off the internet

as

you browse. I'm seeing quite a bit of blocking from Yahoo Groups

(attempted

incoming spyware).

Last, but most to the point of your post, everyone should be checking

daily

(whether automatically or manually) for updates to their operating system
and browser. These are constantly brought out and if you bother to check
(why don't I think you are well informed?), you will find patches coming

out

almost constantly for many different browsers and operating systems.

If you don't do this, you will eventually get bit regardless of what
operating system you use.





Three cheers for Mr. Hampton. Spear a few elitists. :) I know for a fact
that *nix systems are every bit as vulnerable as Windoze systems, since my
spouse does computer repairs for the US military, and almost everything they
use is a *nix based system. They have problems with hackers on a regular
basis, even through their substantial firewalls.

Point being, the only way you can begin to be sure you are protected is to
have a good firewall and A/V, and keep them running and up to date. The only
times I have EVER had problems with unauthorized ingress to my system have
been when both my firewall and A/V have been down (after a hardware failure
usually)...


Point is, you are willing to accept software that has the problems in
the first place. Demand competently written software.

- mike -

Chris wrote:
On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 03:47:42 GMT, Jim Hampton wrote:

Chris,

You are the one who is displaying ignorance. There are constant holes and
security problems with not only many browsers, but operating systems as

snip

99% of all zombied machines were zombied through IE and OE security
holes - many of them YET TO BE FIXED BY MICROSOFT! And you worry
about obscure holes elsewhere?

Yup. Blame the victim and shift the argument. The fact is that the Unix
machines and the obscure browsers are *not* the machines that fill up my
mailbox with virus laden attachments. The infected machines are running
the microsoft stuff. Game set match.

And the expectation that all PC users attached to the net should have
to become minor IT experts is ludicrous. blaming the victim again.

Demand competently written software!

rest snipped

- Mike KB3EIA -

KØHB wrote:
"Chris" wrote



Truly, that's a ****head response.



For more response, point your non-IE browser to
http://www.amishrakefight.org/gfy


He doesn't express himself all that well....



but his basic premise is spot-on!


- mike KB3EIA -

Hello, Dan

Oh yeah .... I've gotten a lot of pings from colleges. Must be those kids
don't have anything better to do either ;)


73 from Rochester, NY
Jim AA2QA

"Dan" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 04:28:59 GMT, "Jim Hampton"
wrote:

Hello, Dan

True enough, but the fact is that the problem is the screwball folks that
get their jollies writing the darn things in the first place.

Yes, I.E. is a major problem - mostly because it is popular and your
comparison with cars and trucks makes sense.

The people who get off on seeing their "handiwork" in the news would
certainly switch to Linux or OS X or whatever we all "switch" to. If
the numbers were there, these systems would already have this crap.

Windows/IE/OE gets the viruses because Windows/IE/OE has the users.
It's that simple.

Yet, I don't get *any* of this crap on my Windows systems, and I have
several. It's all down to common sense. I don't post here with my
real name and email address (check my headers!), I keep my systems
up-to-date, and I have a good firewall running. I get scanned,
pinged, poked and probed all the time, but nothing gets thru.

Dan

Grundig S800, S650, S700, YB400, YB550PE
Degen DE1102, Kaito KA1102
Drake R8, Radio Shack DX-440
E. H. Scott 23 tube Imperial Allwave in Tasman cabinet (1936)


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.712 / Virus Database: 468 - Release Date: 6/27/04

Steve Robeson K4CAP wrote:
Subject: CERT says to stop using IE, but will the **** heads listen?
From: "Jim Hampton"
Date: 6/27/2004 10:47 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:


There are constant holes and
security problems with not only many browsers, but operating systems as
well.


I can't help but wonder if Microsoft and the others don't engineer these
things in, just so they can "come to the rescue" with a patch.

Munchausen's By Proxy Server...?!?!

(ducking ! ! !)



HOWL!!!!! Good one, Steve!

Some holes probably were there on purpose. Not all though. Don't
underestimate poor programming! 8^)


- Mike KB3EIA -

Groom Lake wrote:
In posted on Mon, 28 Jun 2004
17:25:36 GMT, Jim Hampton wrote:


The fact remains that Internet
Explorer, Outlook, and Outlook Express are popular, thus the huge number of
viruses written for them - not that they are more or less secure than other
browsers.


That's not entirely correct;
The fact that they are immensely more insecure, coupled with their
popularity makes them such an irresistible target of exploitation.

100 percent correct. That OS/Broswer/Mail integration is a doing half
the work for the bad guys.


If one keeps a firewall in place, anti-virus in place,
anti-spyware in place, updates them daily, and *uses* them properly, one is
as protected as one can be.

Love my dual processor G5!!....8^)

- Mike KB3EIA -

Robert Casey wrote:
Chris wrote a troll.

I use Nutscrape myself..... :-)



I use it on my PC's for Browser, mail and newsgroups. A good choice for
some better security.


- Mike KB3EIA -

"garigue" wrote


Yepper the bum society rears its head again ...... over 400k words in
the
English language, or so I 've heard, and the universal sentence
enhancer is
always to be found .... pity ...


Tom,

I think it's just become fashionable to be a self-righteous bitcher
against "Them"!

Here in reality computing has advanced light years in just a couple of
decades. My first computer (a Heath H89) had an amazing 48KB of RAM
which I upgraded all the way to 64K for the princely sum of $129, dual
boot (HDOS or CPM), a single floppy drive, no hard drive, no CD drive,
no DVC drive and an upgrade to a 12" amber screen (none of those
primitive green CRT's for me!). Processor (Zilog Z80) speed was
measured in KHz. Total price for the whole thing was just under $2,500.
Software was scarce and expensive, and web crawlers, usenet, and email
were Buck Rogers stuff. Not available to me at home, but
forward-looking companies were willing to pay $2,500/mo for 9.6KHz DDS
connectivity!

My current 'hobby' computer came with a measly 512MB of RAM which I
upgraded to 1GB for $92. It still has only one floppy drive, but 120GB
hard drive, a DVD (r/w) drive, a CD (r/w) drive. Processor speed is
2.5GHz, I have fulltime broadband connectivity to the world-wide-web for
under $50/mo, and more choices of reasonably priced software than I can
count. All thanks to those assholes at Microsoft and Intel. Ain't it
just awful?

73, de Hans, K0HB

Dan wrote:
On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 17:25:36 GMT, "Jim Hampton"
wrote:


If everyone changed to Linux, you can bet the virus and worm writers would
be writing most of the stuff for Unix systems.


Indeed. This whole notion of "everyone should switch so all of these
problems go away" is naieve at best, plain stupid at worst.

1. Who said that?

2. Can you let us know specifically what the Linux flaws are, and how
they compare numerically and in severity with the integrated systems in
the Microsoft applications?

Their integration with the OS is one of those concepts that sound good,
but unless you have incredibly competent software writing, will be a
constant source of security problems.



It's like looking at stats for fuel usage of passenger cars and
trucks, noting that cars make up most of the usage of gas, and trucks
use a small percentage, then saying "Gee, we should all start driving
trucks to save gas"!

But aren't you doing the same thing by telling us that Linux and other
systems have as many flaws as the Microsoft systems?

Hell-o!


Yo, wassup?


- mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote:
Last, but most to the point of your post, everyone should be checking
daily
(whether automatically or manually) for updates to their operating system
and browser...

..... and herein lies another problem: Microsoft
won't keep any of the old updates available. I had to reload
Windows 98 (you can KEEP XP) and now I find
that almost none of the older "security upgrades" are available.
Or at least, I can't find them. Not only that, but this stupid OS
is probably telling the database I still have the upgrades
when I don't. This seriously sucks. Or I may just not know
how to go about it. That's certainly possible.

Jim Hampton wrote:
Hello, Dan

True enough, but the fact is that the problem is the screwball folks that
get their jollies writing the darn things in the first place.

There is that. We just have to quit making their dirty work so easy.



Yes, I.E. is a major problem - mostly because it is popular and your
comparison with cars and trucks makes sense.

If IE was a car, you would have to put new lug nuts on it every day
because the wheels would fall off otherwise. No one would put up with a
vehicle built like PC's are run.


Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I'm having fits getting my dial-up to work
properly and still have the DSL.

Hey, I just spent around 30 hours cumulative time working on a laptop
computer to get a logging program that the writers insisted would work
to work on it. First it said that the .ocx files for the program weren't
registered. I went in to manually register them, and one would register
but the other wouldn't. So I upgraded the OS, then found out my bios was
behind and needed upgraded then I got a VFAT error, and the machine
wouldn't respond to anything. In the meantime I'm troubleshooting all
the error messages, and being led down blind alleys and getting nowhere.
Applying all kinds of updates and "security" patches. Finally, I could
get the computer to boot up in safe mode, and verified that the software
would run. But the video wouldn't work correctly then. Oops, the VFAT
problem comes back.

So I gave up and recovered the original OS on the laptop, and used my
home desktop for Field day. Now I have a video problem with the home
computer that showed up probably from operating it in the great
out-of-doors. My opinion of PC's is oddly poor right now

I love my G5 dual processor. My Macs have never ever given me problems
like what PC users seem to take for granted as part of the territory.
Upgrades, software installation, it's all good.

A big part of my job is to whip PC's into submission, so I think I can
give an informed opinion between the two systems.


73 from Rochester, NY
Jim AA2QA

"Dan" wrote in message
...

On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 17:25:36 GMT, "Jim Hampton"
wrote:


If everyone changed to Linux, you can bet the virus and worm writers

would

be writing most of the stuff for Unix systems.

Indeed. This whole notion of "everyone should switch so all of these
problems go away" is naieve at best, plain stupid at worst.

It's like looking at stats for fuel usage of passenger cars and
trucks, noting that cars make up most of the usage of gas, and trucks
use a small percentage, then saying "Gee, we should all start driving
trucks to save gas"!

Hell-o!

Dan

Grundig S800, S650, S700, YB400, YB550PE
Degen DE1102, Kaito KA1102
Drake R8, Radio Shack DX-440
E. H. Scott 23 tube Imperial Allwave in Tasman cabinet (1936)



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Dan wrote:
On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 04:28:59 GMT, "Jim Hampton"
wrote:


Hello, Dan

True enough, but the fact is that the problem is the screwball folks that
get their jollies writing the darn things in the first place.

Yes, I.E. is a major problem - mostly because it is popular and your
comparison with cars and trucks makes sense.


The people who get off on seeing their "handiwork" in the news would
certainly switch to Linux or OS X or whatever we all "switch" to. If
the numbers were there, these systems would already have this crap.

So you are stating that Linux has the same number of security flaws as
the triumvirate of IE/Outlook/and whatever Windows OS?

Might want to check that out.


Windows/IE/OE gets the viruses because Windows/IE/OE has the users.
It's that simple.

No it isn't.


Yet, I don't get *any* of this crap on my Windows systems, and I have
several. It's all down to common sense. I don't post here with my
real name and email address (check my headers!), I keep my systems
up-to-date, and I have a good firewall running. I get scanned,
pinged, poked and probed all the time, but nothing gets thru.


You don't get spam or viruses? Not even the scattershot address stuff?
You should be giving computer security seminars! 8^)

- mike KB3EIA -

On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 11:15:05 -0400, Mike Coslo wrote:


Demand competently written software!


I do, I use Linux. Good luck getting it from Microsuck.

On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 10:38:34 -0400, Mike Coslo wrote:


If the manufacturers produce software that has gaping security flaws,
it is their fault, not mine.


Mike, it's your fault for CONTINUING TO USE IT.

If you've bought 2 Monkeytime wrenches and the handles both snapped and
broke will you go out and buy ANOTHER Monkeytime wrench????

Get it?

Fred Garvin wrote:
On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 10:38:34 -0400, Mike Coslo wrote:



If the manufacturers produce software that has gaping security flaws,
it is their fault, not mine.



Mike, it's your fault for CONTINUING TO USE IT.

If you've bought 2 Monkeytime wrenches and the handles both snapped and
broke will you go out and buy ANOTHER Monkeytime wrench????


I got taken out of context there, Fred. I was responding to the blame
the victim comments. I do use Microsoft's OS's from XP to Win95 (Yet!)
Mostly because it's part of my job. But I don't use the triumvirate. I
only use the OS. If you are using IE and Outlook in addition to the OS,
then you're asking for trouble.

Tom,

I think it's just become fashionable to be a self-righteous bitcher
against "Them"!

Hans .... yes you are right ...it's easy to bitch at the fellows who for
what ever reason made things the way they are. If all the other systems
were that good then by golly we all would have them and their inherent
faults. I think it is base envy of those that brought what ever to the
unwashed masses that gets some upset and made a whole bunch of money in the
mean time. I was hooked when ever I saw those old "kits" back in the 60's
but couldn't afford the freight. The first computer I ever had a hand in
working with was a Burroghs (sp?) in 1965 which was used by the Port
Vue-Liberty school district for payroll. We managed to get to use the unit
with the guidence of the "special math" instructor. It used pins in sets of
3 per step in a program ...K-1-1 et al. and the problem was that the darn
exponent had "floated" and had to be reset within the program lest all was
lost. The Commodore units of the early 80's provided my impetus. Again
look what 2K $ got you then ... and now ...all at the expense of those
"greedy" risk takers.

Take care ...Tom Popovic KI3R Belle Vernon Pa

garigue wrote:

Tom,

I think it's just become fashionable to be a self-righteous bitcher
against "Them"!


Hans .... yes you are right ...it's easy to bitch at the fellows who for
what ever reason made things the way they are. If all the other systems
were that good then by golly we all would have them and their inherent
faults.

Not really Tom. My experience in computers has been that whatever gets
adopted as a "standard" is related to the golden rule. He who has the
gold makes the rules - and the standards.

- Mike KB3EIA -

"Mike Coslo" wrote:

I get bit regardless. My Norton's finds a virus
here and there despite my running a proxy
server, 2 firewalls, and updating the virus def's
all the time.


Then you must be involved in a high-risk activity (such as downloading
illegal software from questionable sources), because I have not seen any of
that on my computers.


(snip) I use both PC's and Macs extensively,
so I feel I can comment knowledgeably. Using
a PC is getting to be operations under siege.
What the PC users consider to be normal
operations is not what normal operations should
be. Meanwhile, I just use my Mac and do the
work I need to do without all the fuss and muss.
(p.s. - you should see all the cool ham radio
software that is out for OSX!)


I also use both extensively and feel you're not being entirely forthright.
The Mac is certainly not without its own "fuss and muss." The sheer volume
of problem-related questions in the Mac newsgroups is clear testament to
that. And the amount and quality of radio related software for a
Windows-based computer dwarfs that available for the Macintosh (the same
with most any catagory of software, or hardware).


If the manufacturers produce software that has
gaping security flaws, it is their fault, not mine.


Yet my experience suggests users are a large part of the problem -
everything from engaging in high-risk activities to not maintaining, and
even by-passing, the installed security features. I manage the IT department
at a local college. I cannot even count how many computers I've seen with
virus problems that also have illegally obtained software installed and
security features disabled to allow the download of that software.

Stewart

On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 21:10:15 -0400, Mike Coslo wrote:

Fred Garvin wrote:
On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 10:38:34 -0400, Mike Coslo wrote:



If the manufacturers produce software that has gaping security flaws,
it is their fault, not mine.



Mike, it's your fault for CONTINUING TO USE IT.

If you've bought 2 Monkeytime wrenches and the handles both snapped and
broke will you go out and buy ANOTHER Monkeytime wrench????


I got taken out of context there, Fred. I was responding to the blame
the victim comments. I do use Microsoft's OS's from XP to Win95 (Yet!)
Mostly because it's part of my job. But I don't use the triumvirate. I
only use the OS. If you are using IE and Outlook in addition to the OS,
then you're asking for trouble.


I apologize then. Sorry about that.

Dwight Stewart wrote:
"Mike Coslo" wrote:

I get bit regardless. My Norton's finds a virus
here and there despite my running a proxy
server, 2 firewalls, and updating the virus def's
all the time.



Then you must be involved in a high-risk activity (such as downloading
illegal software from questionable sources), because I have not seen any of
that on my computers.

Thanks for the accusation, Dwight, but no, I don't. BTW, the computer
doesn't get infected, but Norton's isolates the file, and I have to
manually delete it.



(snip) I use both PC's and Macs extensively,
so I feel I can comment knowledgeably. Using
a PC is getting to be operations under siege.
What the PC users consider to be normal
operations is not what normal operations should
be. Meanwhile, I just use my Mac and do the
work I need to do without all the fuss and muss.
(p.s. - you should see all the cool ham radio
software that is out for OSX!)



I also use both extensively and feel you're not being entirely forthright.

Yup, that's why places have entire staffs of PC jockeys that work full
time to beat the things into submission. We who own Macs, at least where
I work, have to maintain their own computers. And at least where I work,
all the Mac users are artists, not computer jocks (with the exception of me)


The Mac is certainly not without its own "fuss and muss." The sheer volume
of problem-related questions in the Mac newsgroups is clear testament to
that. And the amount and quality of radio related software for a
Windows-based computer dwarfs that available for the Macintosh (the same
with most any catagory of software, or hardware).

Yup, but I wanna run what I need to do my job and hobby. I could care
less about the other apps. Sometimes I think PCphiles would insist on
only one type of car for the entire world with that mindset.

I do agree that there are more ham apps on PC, which is a big reason
why I have one at home. I'm likely to pick up an Imac at salvage to try
out the new Mac Ham apps tho'

If the manufacturers produce software that has
gaping security flaws, it is their fault, not mine.



Yet my experience suggests users are a large part of the problem -
everything from engaging in high-risk activities to not maintaining, and
even by-passing, the installed security features. I manage the IT department
at a local college. I cannot even count how many computers I've seen with
virus problems that also have illegally obtained software installed and
security features disabled to allow the download of that software.

I won't deny that under the current state of affairs, people should
practice safe computing. And if a person is running illegal software
their ass should be busted.

My point is that the crap software is so insecure that the bad
situation comes about anyhow.

Glad I go an IT pro here, as I have been wondering something for a
while. Isn't it possible to find these infected devils and isolate them
somehow? Might be a naive question, but I'm not an IT person, just a
program jock.

- Mike KB3EIA -

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message ...

Point is, you are willing to accept software that has the problems in
the first place. Demand competently written software.

- mike -


Mike,

My only point is that other software *also* has holes. The only reason
Internet Explorer has been singled out is that it is so popular and
widespread. Heck, there may be some folks with the old TRS-80 model 1 with
a modem and bulletin board software. I'd bet there are no viruses written
for it. I wonder why ... LOL.

I.E. is a big and tempting target, but not any more or less buggy than other
browsers (or, as I mentioned, Windoze vs other systems). Other operating
systems may be more stable (such as Linux), but have security problems as
well.

Best regards from Rochester, NY
Jim



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Chris wrote:

Every time another IE hole is discovered, the **** heads say things
like "It isn't the browser; it's the user," and then they go right on
using IE. Now the Computer Emergency Response Team (CERT) has joined
the chorus of people which includes places like TechTV and has said
that IE is just plain insecure. See

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Jun25.html,

and be sure to read all of the way to the bottom of the article.

It's not that I care about the **** heads themselves, it's that they
allow themselves to be compromised, and then the rest of us have to
pay for it in some way.

Are you getting too much spam? Blame the infected **** heads whose
computers are acting as spam relays.

Is your ISP putting restrictions on email that really hurt? Blame the
infected **** heads again for overloading your ISP's servers or
networks.

So I just want to say "**** you!" to the ignorant IE and OE users who
defend their use of that hole-ridden, abominable software beyond
reason. YOU are one of the major problems with today's Internet.

Sometimes people don't have a choice. For example, my employer will allow
only IE on company computers. I had put Mozilla on my company PC and got my
hands slapped. Sometimes I use OE to sendmail from my laptop but never use
it to receive mail. Most of the time I use Linux on my personal computers.


The real problems are that we have a lot of non-technical people using the
Internet that obviously don't know what they are doing and they don't think
that Internet security is their responsibility. Another problem is all the
crappy program code that is being written without any regard to providing
security to prevent such things as buffer overflow exploits of their code.
As for tracking down the spammers and black hat hackers, good luck.
Ultimately, though, we'll only be able to reduce the amount of security
problems and we'll never be able to eliminate them. There's just too many
jerks out there that don't have anything better to do with their time.

Jim Hampton wrote:

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message ...

Point is, you are willing to accept software that has the problems in
the first place. Demand competently written software.

- mike -



Mike,

My only point is that other software *also* has holes. The only reason
Internet Explorer has been singled out is that it is so popular and
widespread. Heck, there may be some folks with the old TRS-80 model 1 with
a modem and bulletin board software. I'd bet there are no viruses written
for it. I wonder why ... LOL.

I.E. is a big and tempting target, but not any more or less buggy than other
browsers (or, as I mentioned, Windoze vs other systems). Other operating
systems may be more stable (such as Linux), but have security problems as
well.

Hey Jim. I think IE is not only a big target, it is an easy one too.
It's integration with the OS looks good on the surface but is a fatal flaw.

I don't think I can convince too many people of that tho', as the
arguments are getting redundant at this point. If you wish, use IE and
Outlook, just be sure to never ever miss an update, and hope the update
works for you. I'll do a different path.

So I'll just have to say "Practice safe computing, in whatever form you
may wish, and all be careful, eh"?


- Mike KB3EIA -

"Mike Coslo" wrote:

Thanks for the accusation, Dwight, but
no, I don't. BTW, the computer doesn't
get infected, but Norton's isolates the
file, and I have to manually delete it.


It wasn't an accusation, Mike. I was simply pointing out that some
activities more risky than others (and gave an example). If you're not
comfortable with that example, we could use email as another (for example,
no matter how many times you warn people not to, some just can't seem to
resist opening those questionable files).


Yup, that's why places have entire staffs
of PC jockeys that work full time to beat
the things into submission. We who own
Macs, at least where I work, have to
maintain their own computers. And at least
where I work, all the Mac users are artists,
not computer jocks (with the exception of
me)


There is an entire staff because there are a lot of computers, not a
single computer you're maintaining yourself. We have a number of Macs at the
local college and I see many of the same types of problems - missing or
damaged drivers, questionable software installed, tampering with things that
should be left alone, and so on. Some are downright silly. For example,
there isn't a week that goes by that we don't see a computer problem traced
to someone dragging things out of the System folder.


(snip) Sometimes I think PCphiles would
insist on only one type of car for the entire
world with that mindset.


You're assuming I'm a "PCphile." I purchased my first Apple in 1981 and
first Mac in 1986. Even though I used other computers, the Mac was my main
focus for many years. I recently switched focus to Windows, but still own
two PowerBooks to allow me to keep up with events in that platform. The
college is slowly getting rid of the Macs, but a number of teachers still
use them (including my wife).


Glad I go an IT pro here, as I have been
wondering something for a while. Isn't it
possible to find these infected devils and
isolate them somehow? Might be a naive
question, but I'm not an IT person, just a
program jock.


Since they're very unpredictable, it's not really that easy on an active
computer. Most large IT departments have computers sat aside to solely watch
how these things work and what exactly they do. That information is then
used to develop tactics to deal with threats to other computers. The
information is also widely shared, and can usually be found on the internet
very shortly after a new threat is discovered. Indeed, by the time we see
the results of a new virus or whatever, information about it is usually
already available.

Dwight Stewart