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Carl R. Stevenson wrote:
Follows, for anyone who's interested, my response to the insulting, inaccurate press release (and comments to the FCC) from the UPLC: I'd almost think you were angry with them or something.......... Seriously, it's a great letter. Good work, Carl. - Mike KB3EIA - |
Carl R. Stevenson wrote:
Follows, for anyone who's interested, my response to the insulting, inaccurate press release (and comments to the FCC) from the UPLC: Good work!! Hope you will post any reply you receive....if you get one. The BPL folks really have their heads in the sand. |
Mike Coslo wrote:
Carl R. Stevenson wrote: Follows, for anyone who's interested, my response to the insulting, inaccurate press release (and comments to the FCC) from the UPLC: I'd almost think you were angry with them or something.......... Seriously, it's a great letter. Good work, Carl. To quote Carl's letter: "With all due respect - Hogwash". I don't think it is a good letter at all. It would have been better if Carl had delayed in sending it for several days, cooled his jets and had written a toned-down response. The version he sent is inflammatory and combative. Then again, Carl is generally inflammatory and combative. At least he left out the "electronic paintball wars" stuff in his description of amateur radio. Dave K8MN |
In article , JJ
writes: Carl R. Stevenson wrote: Follows, for anyone who's interested, my response to the insulting, inaccurate press release (and comments to the FCC) from the UPLC: Good work!! Hope you will post any reply you receive....if you get one. The BPL folks really have their heads in the sand. Yes, very good work, Carl. Thanks for posting. Perhaps we should all write to UPLC. One thing to remember, though: It makes a sort of twisted sense that the BPL folks would simply 'stonewall', saying there is no harmful interference, their systems are clean, Part 15 supports them, blah, blah, blah. If they start admitting that yes, the interference is real, that power lines do radiate, that the signals carry for many miles, etc., then they've set themselves up to be shut down, or have their systems modified to the point of unusability. Thanks again, Carl 73 de Jim, N2EY |
"Dave Heil" wrote in message ... Mike Coslo wrote: Carl R. Stevenson wrote: Follows, for anyone who's interested, my response to the insulting, inaccurate press release (and comments to the FCC) from the UPLC: I'd almost think you were angry with them or something.......... Seriously, it's a great letter. Good work, Carl. To quote Carl's letter: "With all due respect - Hogwash". I don't think it is a good letter at all. It would have been better if Carl had delayed in sending it for several days, cooled his jets and had written a toned-down response. The version he sent is inflammatory and combative. Then again, Carl is generally inflammatory and combative. At least he left out the "electronic paintball wars" stuff in his description of amateur radio. Dave K8MN Personally I think he wasn't strong enough in his statements. The "vacuum tube" phrase should have been attacked with a selected sample of some of the technology firsts that the amateur community has accomplished. Perhaps even selected info on the fast response and assembly of stations at the WTC disaster. However, his response was good in my opinion. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
Dave Heil wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote: Carl R. Stevenson wrote: Follows, for anyone who's interested, my response to the insulting, inaccurate press release (and comments to the FCC) from the UPLC: I'd almost think you were angry with them or something.......... Seriously, it's a great letter. Good work, Carl. To quote Carl's letter: "With all due respect - Hogwash". I don't think it is a good letter at all. It would have been better if Carl had delayed in sending it for several days, cooled his jets and had written a toned-down response. Well Dave, we could say "With all due respect, sirs, we don't want to insinuate that you might not be accurate, but we don't really think that your assessment is possibly not totally of the same opinion that we have. All apologies if we might be wrong, but we really think that, well we were kind of hoping that maybe you would.........." Yeah, Carl used Hogwash in his letter. I personally think he pulled his punch there anyhow. Hogwash is putting it quite politely. The UPLC doc uses exaggeration, innuendo, gratuitous insults, and monumental inaccuracies. And while we are on the gratuitous line, it makes an equally monumental stretch in connecting BPL with Home security. The version he sent is inflammatory and combative. Then again, Carl is generally inflammatory and combative. At least he left out the "electronic paintball wars" stuff in his description of amateur radio. I disagree with Carl on a number of issues, but on this one I believe he is spot on. We didn't start the volley of insults, UPLC did. The question of whether we want to be in this position is moot. We can either stand by and let them stomp on us, or we can take a more active stand. YMMV - Mike KB3EIA - |
N2EY wrote:
In article , JJ writes: Carl R. Stevenson wrote: Follows, for anyone who's interested, my response to the insulting, inaccurate press release (and comments to the FCC) from the UPLC: Good work!! Hope you will post any reply you receive....if you get one. The BPL folks really have their heads in the sand. Yes, very good work, Carl. Thanks for posting. Perhaps we should all write to UPLC. One thing to remember, though: It makes a sort of twisted sense that the BPL folks would simply 'stonewall', saying there is no harmful interference, their systems are clean, Part 15 supports them, blah, blah, blah. If they start admitting that yes, the interference is real, that power lines do radiate, that the signals carry for many miles, etc., then they've set themselves up to be shut down, or have their systems modified to the point of unusability. Even if a person is completely ignorant of how BPL works, wouldn't the average person get a little suspicious when we are told that it doesn't interfere, and then a few lines later, we are told of mitigation methods? If it doesn't interfere, there is no need for interference mitigation. - mike KB3EIA - |
Subject: response to UPLC new release/comments on BPL
From: Mike Coslo Date: 7/2/2004 8:09 AM Central Standard Time Message-id: Even if a person is completely ignorant of how BPL works, wouldn't the average person get a little suspicious when we are told that it doesn't interfere, and then a few lines later, we are told of mitigation methods? If it doesn't interfere, there is no need for interference mitigation. "Mitigation" is four syllables, Mike, so right away you lost half the population's ability to make any sense of it... Few will notice or appreciate that disparity you point out, even though it's a very valid one...Just like the folks who ignore the "Part 15" caveat on thier "consumer electroics" devices at home who get "stepped on" by a licensed transmitter ("those !@#$%^ hams"...regardless of what service is the culprit) and then demand the FCC "do something" about "them". UPLC will manage to loud-mouth thier plan into deployment...They will forego any really adequate shielding, in OR out, and then the "consumer" will be left barking about how badly it works. 73 Steve, K4YZ |
In article , Mike Coslo writes:
Even if a person is completely ignorant of how BPL works, wouldn't the average person get a little suspicious when we are told that it doesn't interfere, and then a few lines later, we are told of mitigation methods? If it doesn't interfere, there is no need for interference mitigation. You would think so, but that's not how it works. Take cell phones. How many "average people" really know the most basic things about how they work? I'm not talking about CDMA or even analog vs. digital, but just the idea that they are little radio transceivers? Look at the people opposing cell towers as "sources of radiation" - yet demanding perfect coverage, and holding the dern things next to their heads for many minutes per day. Note how the solutions that have evolved have included disguised sites, and the use of more cells with reduced coverage. "Inverse square law"? Puhleeze! Why do you think the 'phone folks revived the term "wireless"? 73 de Jim, N2EY |
In article , PAMNO
(N2EY) writes: In article , Mike Coslo writes: Even if a person is completely ignorant of how BPL works, wouldn't the average person get a little suspicious when we are told that it doesn't interfere, and then a few lines later, we are told of mitigation methods? If it doesn't interfere, there is no need for interference mitigation. You would think so, but that's not how it works. Take cell phones. How many "average people" really know the most basic things about how they work? I'm not talking about CDMA or even analog vs. digital, but just the idea that they are little radio transceivers? Look at the people opposing cell towers as "sources of radiation" - yet demanding perfect coverage, and holding the dern things next to their heads for many minutes per day. Note how the solutions that have evolved have included disguised sites, and the use of more cells with reduced coverage. "Inverse square law"? Puhleeze! Why do you think the 'phone folks revived the term "wireless"? Because the "'phone folks" did NOT "revive" it. The term "wireless" of modern use came from the LAN people, those who design and make Local Area Networks. The first LANs were WIRED. Wiring can be expensive and cumbersome in most areas so the LAN folks brought in low-power RF linking, or "wireless LANs." That was popular and grew. "Wireless" as the word is used now is almost anything not needing wires to connect audio, video, or data over short distances. An automobile was once referred to as a "horseless buggy." That kind of description hasn't been in use much in either today's society nor even that of my childhood. For the same reason, modern society does NOT think of "wireless' as anything like the old 1920s term of radio. If the "'phone folks" called cellular anything, it was "mobile." It still is and many industry folks refer to it as "mobile," synonymous with "cell" and "cellular." [count on another argument and ignitor of potential flame wars concerning the above...some folks don't stop at mere facts in here when it comes to wanting to fight...:-) ] |
In article ,
Steve Robeson K4CAP wrote: | UPLC will manage to loud-mouth thier plan into deployment...They | will forego any really adequate shielding, in OR out, and then the | "consumer" will be left barking about how badly it works. What possible sort of shielding could there be? Well, you could put a shield around each wire. In fact, they have a word for that sort of thing -- coax. Or you could move the wires closer together -- that wouldn't shield anything, but it would decrease the radiation. Or twist the cables together like twisted pair -- but that would require some sort of insulation on the wire. All of these methods are many many many times more expensive than just running coax or fiber alongside the power line and using that for data. Or is there some sort of magic, yet cheap, shielding that they could do that I'm just not aware of? -- Doug McLaren, Why don't cannibals eat clowns? They taste funny. |
In article , Mike Coslo writes:
Dave Heil wrote: Mike Coslo wrote: Carl R. Stevenson wrote: Follows, for anyone who's interested, my response to the insulting, inaccurate press release (and comments to the FCC) from the UPLC: I'd almost think you were angry with them or something.......... Seriously, it's a great letter. Good work, Carl. To quote Carl's letter: "With all due respect - Hogwash". I don't think it is a good letter at all. It would have been better if Carl had delayed in sending it for several days, cooled his jets and had written a toned-down response. Well Dave, we could say "With all due respect, sirs, we don't want to insinuate that you might not be accurate, but we don't really think that your assessment is possibly not totally of the same opinion that we have. All apologies if we might be wrong, but we really think that, well we were kind of hoping that maybe you would.........." Yeah, Carl used Hogwash in his letter. I personally think he pulled his punch there anyhow. Hogwash is putting it quite politely. The UPLC doc uses exaggeration, innuendo, gratuitous insults, and monumental inaccuracies. Also flat-out falsehoods. And while we are on the gratuitous line, it makes an equally monumental stretch in connecting BPL with Home security. The version he sent is inflammatory and combative. Then again, Carl is generally inflammatory and combative. At least he left out the "electronic paintball wars" stuff in his description of amateur radio. I disagree with Carl on a number of issues, but on this one I believe he is spot on. We didn't start the volley of insults, UPLC did. The question of whether we want to be in this position is moot. We can either stand by and let them stomp on us, or we can take a more active stand. The question is - what will be effective? For example, the "vaduum tube transmitter" comment could be countered by "you folks still use wooden poles with porcelain insulators on them". But will such behavior help or hurt? Perhaps that's what UPLC wants - to get into a shouting match with name calling and all the rest. While it was satisfying to see Carl's response, after some thought I begin to wonder how effective "replying in kind" would be. 73 de Jim, N2EY |
In article , (Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes: Subject: response to UPLC new release/comments on BPL From: Mike Coslo Date: 7/2/2004 8:09 AM Central Standard Time Message-id: Even if a person is completely ignorant of how BPL works, wouldn't the average person get a little suspicious when we are told that it doesn't interfere, and then a few lines later, we are told of mitigation methods? If it doesn't interfere, there is no need for interference mitigation. "Mitigation" is four syllables, Mike, so right away you lost half the population's ability to make any sense of it... "Republican" is four syllables, too.....;-) Few will notice or appreciate that disparity you point out, even though it's a very valid one...Just like the folks who ignore the "Part 15" caveat on thier "consumer electroics" devices at home who get "stepped on" by a licensed transmitter ("those !@#$%^ hams"...regardless of what service is the culprit) and then demand the FCC "do something" about "them". That's because they're not educated about how things work. Of course, education costs time and money, and educated customers are harder to please. UPLC will manage to loud-mouth thier plan into deployment...They will forego any really adequate shielding, in OR out, and then the "consumer" will be left barking about how badly it works. Which may ultimately prove their undoing. Let's do a little survey: What options are available where you live, and at what price? Here in Radnor, besides dialup, I can choose cable access at $42.95/month, or DSL access at as low as $29.95/month. No BPL, thankfully. How about others? 73 de Jim, N2EY |
Subject: response to UPLC new release/comments on BPL
From: PAMNO (N2EY) Date: 7/3/2004 6:27 AM Central Standard Time Message-id: In article , (Steve Robeson K4CAP) writes: Few will notice or appreciate that disparity you point out, even though it's a very valid one...Just like the folks who ignore the "Part 15" caveat on thier "consumer electroics" devices at home who get "stepped on" by a licensed transmitter ("those !@#$%^ hams"...regardless of what service is the culprit) and then demand the FCC "do something" about "them". That's because they're not educated about how things work. Of course, education costs time and money, and educated customers are harder to please. Mostly money. A one or two page pamphlet of what can be expected couldn't cost more than a few extra cents to include in the device. Of course if the consumer KNEW what they really needed to, they might demand that the things be properly engineered and manufactured in the first place! 73 Steve, K4YZ |
"N2EY" wrote in message ... In article , (Steve Robeson K4CAP) writes: Subject: response to UPLC new release/comments on BPL From: Mike Coslo Date: 7/2/2004 8:09 AM Central Standard Time Message-id: [snip] "Mitigation" is four syllables, Mike, so right away you lost half the population's ability to make any sense of it... "Republican" is four syllables, too.....;-) No wonder the Democrats are so successful. The word Democrat is only three syllables! Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message ...
"N2EY" wrote in message ... In article , (Steve Robeson K4CAP) writes: Subject: response to UPLC new release/comments on BPL From: Mike Coslo Date: 7/2/2004 8:09 AM Central Standard Time Message-id: [snip] "Mitigation" is four syllables, Mike, so right away you lost half the population's ability to make any sense of it... "Republican" is four syllables, too.....;-) No wonder the Democrats are so successful. The word Democrat is only three syllables! Dee D. Flint, N8UZE They're only successful at circumventing campaign finance reform with with the "Air America" radio program, "Day After Tomorrow" and "Farenheit 911" movies, and Bill Clinton's book "My Life." What a bunch of hooey. |
All of these methods are many many many times more expensive than just running coax or fiber alongside the power line and using that for data. Or is there some sort of magic, yet cheap, shielding that they could do that I'm just not aware of? There's conduit and to a lesser extent BX wiring in the house, but nobody's going to change out the romex to get this shielding. And you still have all those unshielded portable power cords feeding table lamps, toasters, TV sets and such... |
Dee D. Flint wrote:
"Dave Heil" wrote in message ... Mike Coslo wrote: Carl R. Stevenson wrote: Follows, for anyone who's interested, my response to the insulting, inaccurate press release (and comments to the FCC) from the UPLC: I'd almost think you were angry with them or something.......... Seriously, it's a great letter. Good work, Carl. To quote Carl's letter: "With all due respect - Hogwash". I don't think it is a good letter at all. It would have been better if Carl had delayed in sending it for several days, cooled his jets and had written a toned-down response. The version he sent is inflammatory and combative. Then again, Carl is generally inflammatory and combative. At least he left out the "electronic paintball wars" stuff in his description of amateur radio. Dave K8MN Personally I think he wasn't strong enough in his statements. The correct experssion would be for Carl to say "Bullshjt" or "They're full of shjt", but I remember from high debate sessions that such are not really effective in arguements. |
Of course if the consumer KNEW what they really needed to, they might demand that the things be properly engineered and manufactured in the first place! As Beavis and Butthead are fond of saying: "You can't polish a turd". There's no way to make BPL using HF and VHF frequencies not QRM licensed users of those frequencies. Even microwave BPL is going to goof someone else up. Except maybe put them on the same frequency as that used by all the microwave ovens... |
N2EY wrote:
Let's do a little survey: What options are available where you live, and at what price? Here in Radnor, besides dialup, I can choose cable access at $42.95/month, or DSL access at as low as $29.95/month. No BPL, thankfully. How about others? I have cable. I'm paying less than you, but I'm not sure exactly how much. DSL is available,as well as some kind of wireless. We certainly don't need BPL. - Mike KB3EIA - |
"Mike Coslo" wrote in message ... N2EY wrote: Let's do a little survey: What options are available where you live, and at what price? Here in Radnor, besides dialup, I can choose cable access at $42.95/month, or DSL access at as low as $29.95/month. No BPL, thankfully. How about others? I have cable. I'm paying less than you, but I'm not sure exactly how much. DSL is available,as well as some kind of wireless. We certainly don't need BPL. - Mike KB3EIA - Here around the Detroit area, there is dialup, WIFI, DSL, and cable. Some areas have all of these available while some "only" have three choices. Dialup is as low as $9.95 and cable can be had for $29.95 for the first 6 months (it rises after that to about $49.95 but with the competition, it may stay down). WIFI and DSL are around the $30 mark. As I've stated before, BPL can only "make it" if it is as cheap as dialup and as fast and reliable as cable, in my opinion. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
Subject: response to UPLC new release/comments on BPL
From: "Dee D. Flint" Date: 7/3/2004 8:27 AM Central Standard Time Message-id: "N2EY" wrote in message ... In article , (Steve Robeson K4CAP) writes: Subject: response to UPLC new release/comments on BPL From: Mike Coslo Date: 7/2/2004 8:09 AM Central Standard Time Message-id: [snip] "Mitigation" is four syllables, Mike, so right away you lost half the population's ability to make any sense of it... "Republican" is four syllables, too.....;-) No wonder the Democrats are so successful. The word Democrat is only three syllables! Less work for those socio-economically depressed people to utter on thier way to the bank in thier SUV's. Steve, K4YZ |
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In article ,
(Len Over 21) writes: In article , PAMNO (N2EY) writes: In article , Mike Coslo writes: Even if a person is completely ignorant of how BPL works, wouldn't the average person get a little suspicious when we are told that it doesn't interfere, and then a few lines later, we are told of mitigation methods? If it doesn't interfere, there is no need for interference mitigation. You would think so, but that's not how it works. Take cell phones. How many "average people" really know the most basic things about how they work? I'm not talking about CDMA or even analog vs. digital, but just the idea that they are little radio transceivers? Look at the people opposing cell towers as "sources of radiation" - yet demanding perfect coverage, and holding the dern things next to their heads for many minutes per day. Note how the solutions that have evolved have included disguised sites, and the use of more cells with reduced coverage. "Inverse square law"? Puhleeze! Why do you think the 'phone folks revived the term "wireless"? Because the "'phone folks" did NOT "revive" it. Yes, they did. The term "wireless" of modern use came from the LAN people, those who design and make Local Area Networks. The first LANs were WIRED. I know, Len, I've run the wires for them. Wiring can be expensive and cumbersome in most areas so the LAN folks brought in low-power RF linking, or "wireless LANs." That was popular and grew. So? "Wireless" as the word is used now is almost anything not needing wires to connect audio, video, or data over short distances. Why not use the word "radio"? An automobile was once referred to as a "horseless buggy." Horseless carriage. That kind of description hasn't been in use much in either today's society nor even that of my childhood. Really? For the same reason, modern society does NOT think of "wireless' as anything like the old 1920s term of radio. No. "Radio" was known as "wireless" as a shortened version of "wireless telegraph" or "wireless telephone". The term stuck around much longer in British Commonwealth countries - well into WW2 at least. If the "'phone folks" called cellular anything, it was "mobile." It still is and many industry folks refer to it as "mobile," synonymous with "cell" and "cellular." Maybe where you are. But around here the term "wireless" is used interchangeably. The point is that they avoided the use of the word "radio". "Wireless" sounds new and exciting to people who don't know it's a recycled term. [count on another argument and ignitor of potential flame wars concerning the above...some folks don't stop at mere facts in here when it comes to wanting to fight...:-) ] You must have written that looking in the mirror, Len, because you never let the facts stand in your way... |
In article ,
Robert Casey wrote: | All of these methods are many many many times more expensive than just | running coax or fiber alongside the power line and using that for | data. | | Or is there some sort of magic, yet cheap, shielding that they could | do that I'm just not aware of? | | There's conduit and to a lesser extent BX wiring in the house, but | nobody's going to change out the romex to get this shielding. And | you still have all those unshielded portable power cords feeding | table lamps, toasters, TV sets and such... Yes, but conduit and BX wiring will cost more than an eqivilent length of coax or fiber ... right? I don't see any shielding as happening -- if any sort of shielding is required, it'll just be cheaper to use something other than BPL. -- Doug McLaren, Schrodinger's cat may have died for your sins. |
Dee D. Flint wrote:
"N2EY" wrote in message ... In article , (Steve Robeson K4CAP) writes: Subject: response to UPLC new release/comments on BPL From: Mike Coslo Date: 7/2/2004 8:09 AM Central Standard Time Message-id: [snip] "Mitigation" is four syllables, Mike, so right away you lost half the population's ability to make any sense of it... "Republican" is four syllables, too.....;-) No wonder the Democrats are so successful. The word Democrat is only three syllables! Dee D. Flint, N8UZE If it had more than three they wouldn't be able to pronounce it. |
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