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Carl R. Stevenson July 2nd 04 02:12 AM

response to UPLC new release/comments on BPL
 
Follows, for anyone who's interested, my response to the insulting, inaccurate press release (and comments to the FCC) from the UPLC:

Dear Ms. Paterson,

I find the content of your press release (which I understand is derived from comments that UPLC has filed with the FCC) to be inaccurate, misleading, and gratuitously insulting to amateur radio operators and the Amateur Radio Service in general.

In fact, the inaccuracies are so glaring that I am tempted to request that the FCC apply its rules requiring truthfulness in statements made to the Commission and consider sanctions against the UPLC.

I will comment, in context, in the copy of your press release below. Hopefully your e-mail program will preserve the distinguishing color I've used for my comments in composing this message to make it easy for you to identify my comments. Please note that these comments are my *personal* views, as an individual amateur radio operator and an RF engineer of over 33 years experience, and that I am not speaking in any official capacity (for my employer or any of the organizations that I sometimes represent in regulatory matters).


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
June 22, 2004

For More Information, Contact
Mary Alice Patterson
Media Relations Assistant
1.202.833.6811



UPLC Sets the Record Straight on BPL Interference


WASHINGTON - The FCC's proposals are appropriate;

They are not ... the current radiated emissions limits for carrier current systems were developed long ago in contemplation of some finite number and distribution of essentially point-source radiators, NOT in contemplation of "access BPL," which employs what amounts to a huge, geographically distributed antenna system that field measurements show radiates at (and in some cases above) those limits virtually everywhere it exists.

NTIA's recommendations and ARRL's naysaying are misguided.

As an RF engineer, I find NTIA's conclusions that "access BPL" does pose a significant risk of interference to licensed HF/low VHF communications services that use the spectrum "access BPL" proposes to use to be consistent with my own field measurements with calibrated test equipment, the ARRL's measurements (and those of their independent contractor), and the growing body of evidence from the various "trial areas" around the country, where interference has been documented, but not resolved by the responsible BPL system operators.


The United Power Line Council (UPLC) forcefully replied to concerns about harmful interference from BPL in reply comments filed today, and urged the FCC to move forward quickly to develop rules that will encourage more development and deployment of BPL services to the public. Specifically, UPLC expressed its concerns with findings and recommendations by the National Telecommunications and Information Administration (NTIA) that overstate the risk of interference from BPL.

In my view, if anything, NTIA's position UNDERSTATES the risk of interference from BPL. The "commerce" side of NTIA is clearly being driven by political forces to "soft-pedal" the risk to some degree.

NTIA's proposals would place undue operating restrictions and impose arbitrary measurement guidelines that threaten to delay the deployment of BPL or preclude it altogether;

NTIA's proposals don't go far enough ... power companies have been notoriously slow to resolve simple, localized radio interference resulting from such simple things as bad insulators, etc. I have little/no confidence that they will be more responsive in dealing with interference from BPL - and the results to date from the "trial areas" support the conclusion that the level, and promptness, of resolution of interference complaints is more or less non-existent, despite the requirements of the FCC's Part 15 rules that BPL operators cease operation unless or until they can resolve interference.

The BPL industry's response to interference concerns/complaints to date has been largely a game of denial and stalling.

however, the UPLC expressed its interest in working with NTIA going forward. Moreover, UPLC did agree with NTIA that BPL "has been studied to death already and the FCC should adopt rules without further delay."

This is absurd. Despite the BPL industry's denials, and the fact that significant interference has been documented in limited "trial areas" - interference that will only affect wider areas and be exacerbated by large-scale deployments with large numbers of users - there are many unanswered questions about if/how BPL can adequately protect the licensed users of the HF/low VHF spectrum.

Unless/until these questions are resolved, "access BPL" deployments should be put on hold.

UPLC reminded the Commission that BPL is not just another broadband access platform, but one that enables applications in ways that other technologies do not by providing enhanced utility applications, home networking, symmetric speeds, and low latency for a variety of services. Unique applications will improve the efficiency and reliability of electric service to utility customers as well as promote broadband competition for consumers, carriers and ISPs - saving lives, reducing electric generation costs, remedying the digital divide and conquering the DSL- cable duopoly.

This is clearly little more than self-serving marketing rhetoric.

HF/VHF "access BPL" will be limited in the data rates that it will be able to support, due to the hostile nature of the transmission medium (MV and HV power distribution lines) that are not good carriers of RF, have high noise levels, impedance discontinuities, etc.

As for the BPL industry's attempts to "push the hot button" of "universal broadband" (alluding to serving rural America), the economics aren't there for a system that requires repeaters on the order of every 300-500 meters along the lines to overcome noise and losses. I don't see how anyone can make a business case for serving rural customers (many repeater spans apart) in an economically viable fashion, given the large amount of infrastructure that would be required to reach them.

(It is interesting to note that all of the BPL "trial areas" that I am aware of are in urban or suburban areas - not rural areas. In many cases, these areas already have either cable modem service, or DSL service, or both ...)

UPLC also commented on amateur radio opposition to the technology, urging the Commission to ignore "armchair amateurs that still use vacuum tube transmitters"

This gratuitous attack on amateur radio operators is inaccurate, offensive, and uncalled for.

The Amateur Radio Service, including ARES and RACES, provide essential emergency and disaster communications services to government EMS agencies and private agencies such as the Red Cross and the Salvation Army.

Amateur Radio has been recognized by Congress, the Department of Homeland Security, and a plethora of state, local, and private emergency response/disaster relief agencies as a vital part of America's national emergency communications infrastructure.

and listen to the reputable companies and entrepreneurs who are the real experts on BPL and who have overcome enormous technical obstacles to make BPL a reality in the U.S.

Are you referring to the "experts" who deny the existence of any interference issues, despite a large (and growing) body of evidence to the contrary?

Are you referring to the "experts" who insist that "power lines don't radiate as antennas" and/or "BPL is a point source radiator," despite the fact that these statements are contrary to both well-established electromagnetic theory and field measurements?

All the field trials over the years in various parts of the country have shown that the risk of interference from BPL is extraordinarily low, because it produces only minimal radio frequency energy at a few points in the system.

This is patently false, as evidenced by interference complaints, and all of the measurements and studies referenced above.

Moreover, these systems will incorporate adaptive interference mitigation capabilities that will effectively remedy any interference that might result to fixed and mobile operations in the High Frequency (HF) band (1.7-80 MHz).

Where's the beef?

These unspecified, unimplemented "mitigation capabilities" are, for the foreseeable future, an unfulfilled promise (and a promise that may never be fulfilled).

Besides, in your own words above, you imply that imposing such requirements is something that you oppose.

Finally, as pointed out above, electric utilities have generally been dismally poor at resolving even simple, incidental power line interference problems - and those operating BPL "trial systems" have, to date generally denied interference and done little or nothing to resolve it. (A notable exception is the case of Alliant Energy of Cedar Rapids, IA - who have recently terminated their BPL trials as a result of their inability to remedy interference that has existed since their system went active on March 30, 2004 - see
http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2004/06/28/2/?nc=1) - but only after the ARRL filed a formal complaint with the FCC asking that they order the system shut down and impose a $10,000 fine.)

"BPL is an exciting technology with a promising future, but it's dependent on the FCC to develop rules that will encourage companies to deploy systems, both for better electrical service and competitive broadband," stated Bill Moroney, President and CEO of UPLC.

The FCC's primary responsibility, under its own rules and the ITU Radio Regulations, is to protect the many and varied licensed services that have allocations in the 2-80 MHz frequency range from the harmful interference that (at least the current incarnations of) "access BPL" cause.

"If the goal of this Administration is universal affordable broadband access by 2007, BPL is the best hope of achieving it."

With all due respect - hogwash - there are other, readily available, non-interfering solutions such as wireless broadband access in higher, more suitable frequency ranges. As stated above, my personal view is that the "promise" of BPL to "serve rural America" is a pipe dream because the huge amount of infrastructure that would be required would render it economically infeasible at any reasonable cost to rural consumers and businesses.

[I snipped the "who we are" paragraphs at the end of your press release, since I presume that you know who you are ...]

Carl R. Stevenson - wk3c
Grid Square FN20fm
http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c
------------------------------------------------------
NCI-1052
Executive Director, No Code International
Fellow, The Radio Club of America
Senior Member, IEEE
Member, IEEE Standards Association
Member, IEEE-USA CCIP
Chair, IEEE 802.18 Radio Regulatory Technical Advisory Group
IEEE Liaison to ITU-R
Chair, Wi-Fi Alliance Regulatory Committee
Co-Chair, Wi-Fi Alliance Legislative Committee
Life Member, ARRL
Member, QCWA (31424)
------------------------------------------------------




Mike Coslo July 2nd 04 02:21 AM

Carl R. Stevenson wrote:
Follows, for anyone who's interested, my response to the insulting,
inaccurate press release (and comments to the FCC) from the UPLC:


I'd almost think you were angry with them or something..........

Seriously, it's a great letter. Good work, Carl.


- Mike KB3EIA -


JJ July 2nd 04 02:35 AM

Carl R. Stevenson wrote:

Follows, for anyone who's interested, my response to the insulting,
inaccurate press release (and comments to the FCC) from the UPLC:


Good work!! Hope you will post any reply you receive....if you get one.
The BPL folks really have their heads in the sand.


Dave Heil July 2nd 04 03:25 AM

Mike Coslo wrote:

Carl R. Stevenson wrote:
Follows, for anyone who's interested, my response to the insulting,
inaccurate press release (and comments to the FCC) from the UPLC:


I'd almost think you were angry with them or something..........

Seriously, it's a great letter. Good work, Carl.


To quote Carl's letter: "With all due respect - Hogwash".
I don't think it is a good letter at all. It would have been better if
Carl had delayed in sending it for several days, cooled his jets and had
written a toned-down response. The version he sent is inflammatory and
combative. Then again, Carl is generally inflammatory and combative.
At least he left out the "electronic paintball wars" stuff in his
description of amateur radio.

Dave K8MN

N2EY July 2nd 04 10:02 AM

In article , JJ
writes:

Carl R. Stevenson wrote:

Follows, for anyone who's interested, my response to the insulting,
inaccurate press release (and comments to the FCC) from the UPLC:


Good work!! Hope you will post any reply you receive....if you get one.
The BPL folks really have their heads in the sand.

Yes, very good work, Carl. Thanks for posting. Perhaps we should all write to
UPLC.

One thing to remember, though: It makes a sort of twisted sense that the BPL
folks would simply 'stonewall', saying there is no harmful interference, their
systems are clean, Part 15 supports them, blah, blah, blah. If they start
admitting that yes, the interference is real, that power lines do radiate, that
the signals carry for many miles, etc., then they've set themselves up to be
shut down, or have their systems modified to the point of unusability.

Thanks again, Carl

73 de Jim, N2EY



Dee D. Flint July 2nd 04 12:48 PM


"Dave Heil" wrote in message
...
Mike Coslo wrote:

Carl R. Stevenson wrote:
Follows, for anyone who's interested, my response to the insulting,
inaccurate press release (and comments to the FCC) from the UPLC:


I'd almost think you were angry with them or something..........

Seriously, it's a great letter. Good work, Carl.


To quote Carl's letter: "With all due respect - Hogwash".
I don't think it is a good letter at all. It would have been better if
Carl had delayed in sending it for several days, cooled his jets and had
written a toned-down response. The version he sent is inflammatory and
combative. Then again, Carl is generally inflammatory and combative.
At least he left out the "electronic paintball wars" stuff in his
description of amateur radio.

Dave K8MN


Personally I think he wasn't strong enough in his statements. The "vacuum
tube" phrase should have been attacked with a selected sample of some of the
technology firsts that the amateur community has accomplished. Perhaps even
selected info on the fast response and assembly of stations at the WTC
disaster.

However, his response was good in my opinion.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE


Mike Coslo July 2nd 04 02:07 PM

Dave Heil wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote:

Carl R. Stevenson wrote:

Follows, for anyone who's interested, my response to the insulting,
inaccurate press release (and comments to the FCC) from the UPLC:


I'd almost think you were angry with them or something..........

Seriously, it's a great letter. Good work, Carl.



To quote Carl's letter: "With all due respect - Hogwash".
I don't think it is a good letter at all. It would have been better if
Carl had delayed in sending it for several days, cooled his jets and had
written a toned-down response.


Well Dave, we could say "With all due respect, sirs, we don't want to
insinuate that you might not be accurate, but we don't really think that
your assessment is possibly not totally of the same opinion that we
have. All apologies if we might be wrong, but we really think that, well
we were kind of hoping that maybe you would.........."



Yeah, Carl used Hogwash in his letter. I personally think he pulled his
punch there anyhow. Hogwash is putting it quite politely.

The UPLC doc uses exaggeration, innuendo, gratuitous insults, and
monumental inaccuracies. And while we are on the gratuitous line, it
makes an equally monumental stretch in connecting BPL with Home security.

The version he sent is inflammatory and
combative. Then again, Carl is generally inflammatory and combative.
At least he left out the "electronic paintball wars" stuff in his
description of amateur radio.


I disagree with Carl on a number of issues, but on this one I believe
he is spot on. We didn't start the volley of insults, UPLC did. The
question of whether we want to be in this position is moot. We can
either stand by and let them stomp on us, or we can take a more active
stand.

YMMV

- Mike KB3EIA -


Mike Coslo July 2nd 04 02:09 PM

N2EY wrote:
In article , JJ
writes:


Carl R. Stevenson wrote:


Follows, for anyone who's interested, my response to the insulting,
inaccurate press release (and comments to the FCC) from the UPLC:


Good work!! Hope you will post any reply you receive....if you get one.
The BPL folks really have their heads in the sand.


Yes, very good work, Carl. Thanks for posting. Perhaps we should all write to
UPLC.

One thing to remember, though: It makes a sort of twisted sense that the BPL
folks would simply 'stonewall', saying there is no harmful interference, their
systems are clean, Part 15 supports them, blah, blah, blah. If they start
admitting that yes, the interference is real, that power lines do radiate, that
the signals carry for many miles, etc., then they've set themselves up to be
shut down, or have their systems modified to the point of unusability.


Even if a person is completely ignorant of how BPL works, wouldn't the
average person get a little suspicious when we are told that it doesn't
interfere, and then a few lines later, we are told of mitigation
methods? If it doesn't interfere, there is no need for interference
mitigation.

- mike KB3EIA -


Steve Robeson K4CAP July 2nd 04 04:05 PM

Subject: response to UPLC new release/comments on BPL
From: Mike Coslo
Date: 7/2/2004 8:09 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:


Even if a person is completely ignorant of how BPL works, wouldn't the
average person get a little suspicious when we are told that it doesn't
interfere, and then a few lines later, we are told of mitigation
methods? If it doesn't interfere, there is no need for interference
mitigation.


"Mitigation" is four syllables, Mike, so right away you lost half the
population's ability to make any sense of it...

Few will notice or appreciate that disparity you point out, even though
it's a very valid one...Just like the folks who ignore the "Part 15" caveat on
thier "consumer electroics" devices at home who get "stepped on" by a licensed
transmitter ("those !@#$%^ hams"...regardless of what service is the culprit)
and then demand the FCC "do something" about "them".

UPLC will manage to loud-mouth thier plan into deployment...They will
forego any really adequate shielding, in OR out, and then the "consumer" will
be left barking about how badly it works.

73

Steve, K4YZ






N2EY July 2nd 04 10:04 PM

In article , Mike Coslo writes:

Even if a person is completely ignorant of how BPL works, wouldn't the
average person get a little suspicious when we are told that it doesn't
interfere, and then a few lines later, we are told of mitigation
methods? If it doesn't interfere, there is no need for interference
mitigation.


You would think so, but that's not how it works.

Take cell phones. How many "average people" really know the most basic things
about how they work? I'm not talking about CDMA or even analog vs. digital, but
just the idea that they are little radio transceivers? Look at the people
opposing cell towers as "sources of radiation" - yet demanding perfect
coverage, and holding the dern things next to their heads for many minutes per
day. Note how the solutions that have evolved have included disguised sites,
and the use of more cells with reduced coverage. "Inverse square law"?
Puhleeze!

Why do you think the 'phone folks revived the term "wireless"?

73 de Jim, N2EY

Len Over 21 July 2nd 04 10:50 PM

In article , PAMNO
(N2EY) writes:

In article , Mike Coslo writes:

Even if a person is completely ignorant of how BPL works, wouldn't the
average person get a little suspicious when we are told that it doesn't
interfere, and then a few lines later, we are told of mitigation
methods? If it doesn't interfere, there is no need for interference
mitigation.


You would think so, but that's not how it works.

Take cell phones. How many "average people" really know the most basic things
about how they work? I'm not talking about CDMA or even analog vs. digital,

but
just the idea that they are little radio transceivers? Look at the people
opposing cell towers as "sources of radiation" - yet demanding perfect
coverage, and holding the dern things next to their heads for many minutes per
day. Note how the solutions that have evolved have included disguised sites,
and the use of more cells with reduced coverage. "Inverse square law"?
Puhleeze!

Why do you think the 'phone folks revived the term "wireless"?


Because the "'phone folks" did NOT "revive" it.

The term "wireless" of modern use came from the LAN people,
those who design and make Local Area Networks. The first
LANs were WIRED. Wiring can be expensive and cumbersome in
most areas so the LAN folks brought in low-power RF linking, or
"wireless LANs." That was popular and grew.

"Wireless" as the word is used now is almost anything not needing
wires to connect audio, video, or data over short distances.

An automobile was once referred to as a "horseless buggy." That
kind of description hasn't been in use much in either today's
society nor even that of my childhood. For the same reason,
modern society does NOT think of "wireless' as anything like the
old 1920s term of radio.

If the "'phone folks" called cellular anything, it was "mobile."
It still is and many industry folks refer to it as "mobile,"
synonymous with "cell" and "cellular."

[count on another argument and ignitor of potential flame wars
concerning the above...some folks don't stop at mere facts in
here when it comes to wanting to fight...:-) ]



Doug McLaren July 2nd 04 11:00 PM

In article ,
Steve Robeson K4CAP wrote:

| UPLC will manage to loud-mouth thier plan into deployment...They
| will forego any really adequate shielding, in OR out, and then the
| "consumer" will be left barking about how badly it works.

What possible sort of shielding could there be?

Well, you could put a shield around each wire. In fact, they have a
word for that sort of thing -- coax. Or you could move the wires
closer together -- that wouldn't shield anything, but it would
decrease the radiation. Or twist the cables together like twisted
pair -- but that would require some sort of insulation on the wire.

All of these methods are many many many times more expensive than just
running coax or fiber alongside the power line and using that for
data.

Or is there some sort of magic, yet cheap, shielding that they could
do that I'm just not aware of?

--
Doug McLaren,
Why don't cannibals eat clowns? They taste funny.

N2EY July 3rd 04 11:57 AM

In article , Mike Coslo writes:

Dave Heil wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote:

Carl R. Stevenson wrote:

Follows, for anyone who's interested, my response to the insulting,
inaccurate press release (and comments to the FCC) from the UPLC:

I'd almost think you were angry with them or something..........

Seriously, it's a great letter. Good work, Carl.



To quote Carl's letter: "With all due respect - Hogwash".
I don't think it is a good letter at all. It would have been better if
Carl had delayed in sending it for several days, cooled his jets and had
written a toned-down response.


Well Dave, we could say "With all due respect, sirs, we don't want to
insinuate that you might not be accurate, but we don't really think that
your assessment is possibly not totally of the same opinion that we
have. All apologies if we might be wrong, but we really think that, well
we were kind of hoping that maybe you would.........."



Yeah, Carl used Hogwash in his letter. I personally think he pulled his


punch there anyhow. Hogwash is putting it quite politely.

The UPLC doc uses exaggeration, innuendo, gratuitous insults, and
monumental inaccuracies.


Also flat-out falsehoods.

And while we are on the gratuitous line, it
makes an equally monumental stretch in connecting BPL with Home security.


The version he sent is inflammatory and
combative. Then again, Carl is generally inflammatory and combative.
At least he left out the "electronic paintball wars" stuff in his
description of amateur radio.


I disagree with Carl on a number of issues, but on this one I believe
he is spot on. We didn't start the volley of insults, UPLC did. The
question of whether we want to be in this position is moot. We can
either stand by and let them stomp on us, or we can take a more active
stand.


The question is - what will be effective? For example, the "vaduum tube
transmitter" comment could be countered by "you folks still use wooden poles
with porcelain insulators on them". But will such behavior help or hurt?

Perhaps that's what UPLC wants - to get into a shouting match with name calling
and all the rest.

While it was satisfying to see Carl's response, after some thought I begin to
wonder how effective "replying in kind" would be.

73 de Jim, N2EY

N2EY July 3rd 04 12:27 PM

In article , (Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

Subject: response to UPLC new release/comments on BPL
From: Mike Coslo

Date: 7/2/2004 8:09 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:


Even if a person is completely ignorant of how BPL works, wouldn't the
average person get a little suspicious when we are told that it doesn't
interfere, and then a few lines later, we are told of mitigation
methods? If it doesn't interfere, there is no need for interference
mitigation.


"Mitigation" is four syllables, Mike, so right away you lost half the
population's ability to make any sense of it...


"Republican" is four syllables, too.....;-)

Few will notice or appreciate that disparity you point out, even though
it's a very valid one...Just like the folks who ignore the "Part 15" caveat
on
thier "consumer electroics" devices at home who get "stepped on" by a
licensed
transmitter ("those !@#$%^ hams"...regardless of what service is the culprit)
and then demand the FCC "do something" about "them".


That's because they're not educated about how things work. Of course, education
costs time and money, and educated customers are harder to please.

UPLC will manage to loud-mouth thier plan into deployment...They will
forego any really adequate shielding, in OR out, and then the "consumer" will
be left barking about how badly it works.


Which may ultimately prove their undoing.

Let's do a little survey: What options are available where you live, and at
what price?

Here in Radnor, besides dialup, I can choose cable access at $42.95/month, or
DSL access at as low as $29.95/month. No BPL, thankfully.

How about others?

73 de Jim, N2EY



Steve Robeson K4CAP July 3rd 04 01:09 PM

Subject: response to UPLC new release/comments on BPL
From: PAMNO (N2EY)
Date: 7/3/2004 6:27 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,

(Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:


Few will notice or appreciate that disparity you point out, even though
it's a very valid one...Just like the folks who ignore the "Part 15" caveat
on
thier "consumer electroics" devices at home who get "stepped on" by a
licensed
transmitter ("those !@#$%^ hams"...regardless of what service is the

culprit)
and then demand the FCC "do something" about "them".


That's because they're not educated about how things work. Of course,
education
costs time and money, and educated customers are harder to please.


Mostly money.

A one or two page pamphlet of what can be expected couldn't cost more than
a few extra cents to include in the device.

Of course if the consumer KNEW what they really needed to, they might
demand that the things be properly engineered and manufactured in the first
place!

73

Steve, K4YZ








Dee D. Flint July 3rd 04 02:27 PM


"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article ,

(Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

Subject: response to UPLC new release/comments on BPL
From: Mike Coslo

Date: 7/2/2004 8:09 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

[snip]
"Mitigation" is four syllables, Mike, so right away you lost half

the
population's ability to make any sense of it...


"Republican" is four syllables, too.....;-)


No wonder the Democrats are so successful. The word Democrat is only three
syllables!

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE


William July 3rd 04 09:06 PM

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message ...
"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article ,

(Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

Subject: response to UPLC new release/comments on BPL
From: Mike Coslo

Date: 7/2/2004 8:09 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

[snip]
"Mitigation" is four syllables, Mike, so right away you lost half

the
population's ability to make any sense of it...


"Republican" is four syllables, too.....;-)


No wonder the Democrats are so successful. The word Democrat is only three
syllables!

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE


They're only successful at circumventing campaign finance reform with
with the "Air America" radio program, "Day After Tomorrow" and
"Farenheit 911" movies, and Bill Clinton's book "My Life."

What a bunch of hooey.

Robert Casey July 3rd 04 09:56 PM




All of these methods are many many many times more expensive than just
running coax or fiber alongside the power line and using that for
data.

Or is there some sort of magic, yet cheap, shielding that they could
do that I'm just not aware of?



There's conduit and to a lesser extent BX wiring in the house, but
nobody's going to change
out the romex to get this shielding. And you still have all those
unshielded portable power
cords feeding table lamps, toasters, TV sets and such...




Robert Casey July 3rd 04 09:59 PM

Dee D. Flint wrote:

"Dave Heil" wrote in message
...


Mike Coslo wrote:


Carl R. Stevenson wrote:


Follows, for anyone who's interested, my response to the insulting,
inaccurate press release (and comments to the FCC) from the UPLC:


I'd almost think you were angry with them or something..........

Seriously, it's a great letter. Good work, Carl.


To quote Carl's letter: "With all due respect - Hogwash".
I don't think it is a good letter at all. It would have been better if
Carl had delayed in sending it for several days, cooled his jets and had
written a toned-down response. The version he sent is inflammatory and
combative. Then again, Carl is generally inflammatory and combative.
At least he left out the "electronic paintball wars" stuff in his
description of amateur radio.

Dave K8MN



Personally I think he wasn't strong enough in his statements.

The correct experssion would be for Carl to say "Bullshjt" or "They're
full of shjt", but
I remember from high debate sessions that such are not really effective
in arguements.


Robert Casey July 3rd 04 10:06 PM




Of course if the consumer KNEW what they really needed to, they might
demand that the things be properly engineered and manufactured in the first
place!



As Beavis and Butthead are fond of saying: "You can't polish a turd".
There's no way to
make BPL using HF and VHF frequencies not QRM licensed users of those
frequencies.
Even microwave BPL is going to goof someone else up. Except maybe put
them on the
same frequency as that used by all the microwave ovens...


Mike Coslo July 4th 04 01:14 AM

N2EY wrote:


Let's do a little survey: What options are available where you live, and at
what price?

Here in Radnor, besides dialup, I can choose cable access at $42.95/month, or
DSL access at as low as $29.95/month. No BPL, thankfully.

How about others?


I have cable. I'm paying less than you, but I'm not sure exactly how
much. DSL is available,as well as some kind of wireless. We certainly
don't need BPL.

- Mike KB3EIA -


Dee D. Flint July 4th 04 01:33 AM


"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...
N2EY wrote:


Let's do a little survey: What options are available where you live, and

at
what price?

Here in Radnor, besides dialup, I can choose cable access at

$42.95/month, or
DSL access at as low as $29.95/month. No BPL, thankfully.

How about others?


I have cable. I'm paying less than you, but I'm not sure exactly how
much. DSL is available,as well as some kind of wireless. We certainly
don't need BPL.

- Mike KB3EIA -


Here around the Detroit area, there is dialup, WIFI, DSL, and cable. Some
areas have all of these available while some "only" have three choices.

Dialup is as low as $9.95 and cable can be had for $29.95 for the first 6
months (it rises after that to about $49.95 but with the competition, it may
stay down). WIFI and DSL are around the $30 mark.

As I've stated before, BPL can only "make it" if it is as cheap as dialup
and as fast and reliable as cable, in my opinion.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE


Steve Robeson K4CAP July 4th 04 02:17 PM

Subject: response to UPLC new release/comments on BPL
From: "Dee D. Flint"
Date: 7/3/2004 8:27 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:


"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article ,

(Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

Subject: response to UPLC new release/comments on BPL
From: Mike Coslo

Date: 7/2/2004 8:09 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

[snip]
"Mitigation" is four syllables, Mike, so right away you lost half

the
population's ability to make any sense of it...


"Republican" is four syllables, too.....;-)


No wonder the Democrats are so successful. The word Democrat is only three
syllables!


Less work for those socio-economically depressed people to utter on thier
way to the bank in thier SUV's.

Steve, K4YZ






N2EY July 4th 04 08:56 PM

In article , (Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

"Republican" is four syllables, too.....;-)


No wonder the Democrats are so successful. The word Democrat is only three
syllables!


Less work for those socio-economically depressed people to utter on thier
way to the bank in thier SUV's.

"Bush" is only one syllable....;-)

73 de Jim, N2EY


N2EY July 4th 04 09:56 PM

In article , (Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

That's because they're not educated about how things work. Of course,
education
costs time and money, and educated customers are harder to please.


Mostly money.


Not really.

A one or two page pamphlet of what can be expected couldn't cost more
than a few extra cents to include in the device.


Fraction of a cent in quantity.

Problem is, the customer has to *read* and *understand* it.

Of course if the consumer KNEW what they really needed to, they might
demand that the things be properly engineered and manufactured in the first
place!


Exactly! But that would raise the price, which would cut into sales. And
getting mfrs. to do it would probably require government regulations more
strict than those now in effect...

73 de Jim, N2EY





N2EY July 5th 04 08:57 AM

In article ,
(Len Over 21) writes:

In article ,
PAMNO
(N2EY) writes:

In article , Mike Coslo writes:

Even if a person is completely ignorant of how BPL works, wouldn't the
average person get a little suspicious when we are told that it doesn't
interfere, and then a few lines later, we are told of mitigation
methods? If it doesn't interfere, there is no need for interference
mitigation.


You would think so, but that's not how it works.

Take cell phones. How many "average people" really know the most basic

things
about how they work? I'm not talking about CDMA or even analog vs. digital,

but
just the idea that they are little radio transceivers? Look at the people
opposing cell towers as "sources of radiation" - yet demanding perfect
coverage, and holding the dern things next to their heads for many minutes

per
day. Note how the solutions that have evolved have included disguised sites,
and the use of more cells with reduced coverage. "Inverse square law"?
Puhleeze!

Why do you think the 'phone folks revived the term "wireless"?


Because the "'phone folks" did NOT "revive" it.


Yes, they did.

The term "wireless" of modern use came from the LAN people,
those who design and make Local Area Networks. The first
LANs were WIRED.


I know, Len, I've run the wires for them.

Wiring can be expensive and cumbersome in
most areas so the LAN folks brought in low-power RF linking, or
"wireless LANs." That was popular and grew.


So?

"Wireless" as the word is used now is almost anything not needing
wires to connect audio, video, or data over short distances.


Why not use the word "radio"?

An automobile was once referred to as a "horseless buggy."


Horseless carriage.

That
kind of description hasn't been in use much in either today's
society nor even that of my childhood.


Really?

For the same reason,
modern society does NOT think of "wireless' as anything like the
old 1920s term of radio.


No.

"Radio" was known as "wireless" as a shortened version of "wireless telegraph"
or "wireless telephone". The term stuck around much longer in British
Commonwealth countries - well into WW2 at least.

If the "'phone folks" called cellular anything, it was "mobile."
It still is and many industry folks refer to it as "mobile,"
synonymous with "cell" and "cellular."


Maybe where you are. But around here the term "wireless" is used
interchangeably.

The point is that they avoided the use of the word "radio". "Wireless" sounds
new and exciting to people who don't know it's a recycled term.

[count on another argument and ignitor of potential flame wars
concerning the above...some folks don't stop at mere facts in
here when it comes to wanting to fight...:-) ]


You must have written that looking in the mirror, Len, because you never let
the facts stand in your way...





Doug McLaren July 5th 04 08:17 PM

In article ,
Robert Casey wrote:

| All of these methods are many many many times more expensive than just
| running coax or fiber alongside the power line and using that for
| data.
|
| Or is there some sort of magic, yet cheap, shielding that they could
| do that I'm just not aware of?
|
| There's conduit and to a lesser extent BX wiring in the house, but
| nobody's going to change out the romex to get this shielding. And
| you still have all those unshielded portable power cords feeding
| table lamps, toasters, TV sets and such...

Yes, but conduit and BX wiring will cost more than an eqivilent length
of coax or fiber ... right? I don't see any shielding as happening --
if any sort of shielding is required, it'll just be cheaper to use
something other than BPL.

--
Doug McLaren,
Schrodinger's cat may have died for your sins.

JJ July 6th 04 07:03 PM

Dee D. Flint wrote:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...

In article ,


(Steve

Robeson K4CAP) writes:


Subject: response to UPLC new release/comments on BPL
From: Mike Coslo

Date: 7/2/2004 8:09 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:


[snip]

"Mitigation" is four syllables, Mike, so right away you lost half


the

population's ability to make any sense of it...


"Republican" is four syllables, too.....;-)



No wonder the Democrats are so successful. The word Democrat is only three
syllables!

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE


If it had more than three they wouldn't be able to pronounce it.



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