In article ,
(William) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Steve the Stalker) writes:

I've been in Mojave, up to Bishop and down in Imperial County and was
never out of earshot of an NOAA weather station...and THAT was in the late
80's
and early 90's. I used to sit in the Marine Expeditionary Airfield
shelters
with my HT and copy NOAA.

During one of those famous, heroic "seven hostile actions?!?"

"Just say NOAA..." :-)

LHA / WMD

NOAH!

"I've been through the desert on a horse with no name, (with my shack
on my hip) It felt good to be encoded with S.A.M.E."

It got hostile when someone made fun of his shack on his hip and asked
him if he was a real ham. He said, "NOAA IS Amateur Radio!" and
everyone laughed at him. Again.

:-)

Interesting that The Stalker has mentioned 3 warehousing areas of the
USMC in California, all of them rather well inland. Now Kellie, the
Katapult
King has, along with the Stalker, accused us of doing "clerk" duties while
in the military. Those two important heroes of the U.S. military seem to
have no information about military duties other than clerking!

Sunnuvagun! :-)

Nancy says "Hello...and just say NOAA..."

LHA / WMD

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message ...
Subject: WX Receivers and Repeaters retransmitting non-weather alerts.
From: "D. Stussy"
Date: 7/12/2004 2:21 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004, Phil Kane wrote:
On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:18:15 GMT, D. Stussy wrote:
Why not petition to change the rules to allow such retransmission?

Because I believe that [simultaneous and automatic] retransmission is
ALREADY
PROVIDED FOR in the existing rules and should not be considered a
violation.
At most, the existing problem is one FCC employee's view - and thus a bad
ruling. What is there to actually change?

Dieter...r e a d t h i s v e r y s l o w l y ............

97.113(e) No station shall retransmit programs...(SNIP TO...)Propagation,
weather forecasts, and shuttle retransmissions may not be conducted on a
regular basis, but only occasionally, as an incident of normal amateur radio
communication

"...MAY NOT BE CONDUCTED ON A REGULAR BASIS..."

WHERE in that did you get the idea that "simultaneous and automatic"
retransmission is "already provided for"...?!?!?!

Deiter, if it occurred on a regular basis, then it would not cause
alarms to go off. It occurs only occasionally. And alarms then go
off.

What use would an alarm be if it occurred on a regular basis?

"Ryan, KC8PMX" wrote in message ...
Doesn't the REACT groups still do eye (or organ) transports?? Thought I
heard about that somewhere.....


Ryan KC8PMX

Yep. They've got Steve's brain in a jar labeled "Abby Normal." None
of the VA hospitals will accept it. So they just pass it from one
REACTor to another at roadside rests and truck stops. Its been on
every major highway in the US, and has been on the ALCAN to Alaska and
back.

;^)

(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...
In article ,
(William) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Steve the Stalker) writes:

I've been in Mojave, up to Bishop and down in Imperial County and was
never out of earshot of an NOAA weather station...and THAT was in the late
80's
and early 90's. I used to sit in the Marine Expeditionary Airfield
shelters
with my HT and copy NOAA.

During one of those famous, heroic "seven hostile actions?!?"

"Just say NOAA..." :-)

LHA / WMD

NOAH!

"I've been through the desert on a horse with no name, (with my shack
on my hip) It felt good to be encoded with S.A.M.E."

It got hostile when someone made fun of his shack on his hip and asked
him if he was a real ham. He said, "NOAA IS Amateur Radio!" and
everyone laughed at him. Again.

:-)

Interesting that The Stalker has mentioned 3 warehousing areas of the
USMC in California, all of them rather well inland. Now Kellie, the
Katapult
King has, along with the Stalker, accused us of doing "clerk" duties while
in the military. Those two important heroes of the U.S. military seem to
have no information about military duties other than clerking!

REMF? Hmmmm. 'Bout all Yell Yell knows about CAP is from 1950's
"This is the Air Force..." publications.

No doubt when he was a marine he kicked boxes will steel-toed jump
boots.

And the Rubberband Man prolly did, too.

Sunnuvagun! :-)

By George!!! )

Nancy says "Hello...and just say NOAA..."

An awesome woman by anyone's standards ('cept yell yell).

"Sorry Hans, NOAA IS Amateur Radio!"

Hi, hi, har de har.

Subject: WX Receivers and Repeaters retransmitting non-weather alerts.
From: (William)
Date: 7/14/2004 5:26 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message

Interesting that The Stalker has mentioned 3 warehousing areas of the
USMC in California, all of them rather well inland.

All of those areas used for combat training.

But then you knew that....

Hi, hi, har de har.

How do you shave with all the egg on your face, Brain?

Or even pay attention long enough to do it with that hand up your
skirt......?!?!

Steve, K4YZ

On Mon, 12 Jul 2004, Steve Robeson K4CAP wrote:
Subject: WX Receivers and Repeaters retransmitting non-weather alerts.
From: "D. Stussy"
Date: 7/12/2004 1:47 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004, Steve Robeson K4CAP wrote:
Subject: WX Receivers and Repeaters retransmitting non-weather alerts.
From: "D. Stussy"
Date: 7/10/2004 3:18 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

On Fri, 9 Jul 2004, Phil Kane wrote:
On Thu, 08 Jul 2004 05:07:37 GMT, D. Stussy wrote:

If the content of the warning is to reach the greatest number of
people in the shortest period of time, even a "verbatim
retransmission" by an amateur station NOT using the NWS audio of
information heard from there could be an unjustified delay that costs
a life.

Comments?

Why not petition to change the rules to allow such retransmission?

Because I believe that [simultaneous and automatic] retransmission is
ALREADY
PROVIDED FOR in the existing rules and should not be considered a
violation.

The "simultaneous and automatic retransmission" you refer to is for
AMATEUR communications...

The FCC has repeatedly and unwaveringly stated that is it ILLEGAL for
Amateurs to rebroadcast non-Amateur traffic. Period.

Wrong. Look at the recent modification to .113 for WX stations. Also,
retransmission of NASA Shuttle communications has been in the rules for more
than a decade (granted, the initial retransmitter is supposed to get
permission
from NASA, but the fact that it is allowed in ANY FORM defeats your absolute
statement).

If all you are looking to do is "defeat( ) (my) absolute statement", then
congratulations.

However the NASA example is a specific waiver from the FCC, and NASA
hardly has hundreds of remote transmitters in every state to share the shuttle
traffic, now do they?

And if you bothered to look at the current .113, there is also a "waiver" for
retransmitting NOAA/NWS weather transmissions - with the limitation that it is
NOT done on a continuous basis (communications emergency or failure
notwithstanding for which the rules in .400 ff. take priority anyway).

There are NOAA receivers available for less than $20. Non-Amateurs
who
want to listen to it can do so without having to buy a $200+ Amateur device
and
modify it in order to do so. The NOAA channels are available options in
CB's,
FRS and Marine radios already.

Receivers less than $20.00 don't have SAME or special actions that they take
when hearing an EAS broadcast. You've missed the point here.....

No I haven't.

Neither my $150 2 meter rig nor my $350 V/UHF rig have SAME function in
them either. What would be the point of having those alert tones squawking on
2M or 70CM...?!?!

Because those alert tones are part of "EAS," while the normal weather status
transmission isn't. Emergency communications that may affect life or property
are always ALLOWED - and the concept of the FCC enacting the new EAS to replace
EAB was to have it reach as many [people] as possible as soon as possible.
Yet, we have the FCC's Mr. Cross now saying that this is forbidden. If so,
then I think he's insane - a rules violation is clearly less significant than
saving someone's life.

So...We bump the $20 up to $40...I can find at least a half dozen radios
in that price range that DO have SAME in them. So what then?

Personally, I'd rather keep the radio seperate so I could monitor NOAA
while keeping my 2M rig for 2-way purposes.

Well, no one said that YOU (or anyone else) HAD TO interface your local
repeater to a SAME-activated weatherradio. However, now that the rules do
permit it, why is there this "strange" interpretation of that rule?

The places where NOAA transmissions can NOT be heard are extremely
few. I
am sure there is some remote butte in Montanna or some valley in West
Virginia
that has poor or no coverage...But certainly not enough for the FCC to
reverese
it's policy...Espeically in light of NOAA's expenditures to spread the net.
In
my "neighborhood" alone I can hear transmissions on 3 of the seven channels
on
an HT...I can imagine what I might hear with a dedicated receiver and
appropriate antenna.

Those Amateurs who want to hear it are usually already involved in
SKYWARN
and already know the frequencies to tune to. They don't have to cling to a
local repeater hoping that someone else will "rebroadcast" NOAA audio.

Then explain why the rules were changed a couple of years ago to permit
it....

Explain to me where it's permitted 24/7, Dieter...

Explain to me where it's allowed to be AUTOMATICALLY retransmitted.

Follow along:

97.113(e) No station shall retransmit programs or signals emanating from any
type of radio station other than an amateur station, except propagation and
weather forecast information intended for use by the general public and
originated from United States Government stations and communications, including
incidental music, originating on United States Government frequencies between a
space shuttle and its associated Earth stations. Prior approval for shuttle
retransmissions must be obtained from the National Aeronautics and Space
Administration. Such retransmissions must be for the exclusive use of amateur
operators. Propagation, weather forecasts, and shuttle retransmissions may not
be conducted on a regular basis, but only occasionally, as an incident of
normal amateur radio communications.

Re-read that LAST LINE over and over, Dieter.

I have. That does not forbid automatic retransmission. It does forbid
scheduled, regular, and/or continuous retransmission. It permits occasional
retransmission. [Emergencies are also not "regular" in nature.]

As for automatic, the issue arose with regard to a device that would be
interfaced to an amateur repeater, and repeaters MAY BE AUTOMATICALLY
CONTROLLED, so that's where the "automatic" aspect comes in.

Propagation, weather forecasts, and shuttle retransmissions may not be
conducted on a regular basis, but only occasionally, as an incident of normal
amateur radio communications.

Propagation, weather forecasts, and shuttle retransmissions may not be
conducted on a regular basis, but only occasionally, as an incident of normal
amateur radio communications.

Propagation, weather forecasts, and shuttle retransmissions may not be
conducted on a regular basis, but only occasionally, as an incident of normal
amateur radio communications.

(Just thought I'd help you along a little bit.)

Allow me to make further emphasis of part of that regulation:

Such retransmissions must be for the exclusive use of amateur operators.

Such retransmissions must be for the exclusive use of amateur operators.

Such retransmissions must be for the exclusive use of amateur operators.

So what would be your point? There's no way you can make those
rebroadcasts and NOT be assured that the broadcast was NOT being used by
non-Amateurs.

Not any more so than under circumstances where no shuttle or weather
transmissions are occuring. Amateur frequencies are often included in
scanners - devices which don't require an FCC license to operate.

The only thing I gather from your statements is that you believe that ANY
retransmission of non-amateur communications is a rules violation. That also
is not what .113 says - it is permitting SOME types of non-amateur originated
communications to be [re]transmitted on an OCCASIONAL basis.

Lastly, for someone who keeps whining about another Amateur posting
Amateur Radio related news items in an Amateur Radio forum, I find it
really
funny that you want to play junior disc jockey on Amateur Radio with NON
Amateur weather broadcasts.

This topic is clearly about the rules and FCC policy (and its interpretation
fo
the rules). There are many things in AR Newsline that have nothing to do
with
the rules or operating practice and therefore don't belong here on ".policy"
(but may be appropriate to one of the other amateur radio newsgroups).

And I can pick almost any thread in any other of the other NG's and find
discussions going on there about topics OTHER than wha the charter for those
NG's may have "allowed".

How come I don't find Dieter Stussy in any of those NG's howling about the
inappropriateness of those posts...?!?!

1) I don't read every newsgroup.
2) Spam happens. You expect me to "explain the entire universe" to you?
3) There is quite alot of "****" posts that happen here.
4) What is the point of complaining about someone else's off-topic post if
nothing can or will be done about it? Here, there is someone to whom I can
complain about to get it stopped.
5) For the most part, people RESPECT the purpose of the group and usually stay
on topic. Amateur radio seems to attract anarchists by its nature - and it is
clear what we have here is anarchy.

Lastly, I didn't imply that this wasn't about the rules...It certainly
is...I just said I find it ironic that you want to play junior disc jockey with
NOAA weather broadcasts.

WHERE in LA County can you go and NOT hear an NOAA broadcast, Dieter?

If their transmitters fail, ANYWHERE! :-)

Remember that Mr. Cross's comment was the same when the issue of a
communications emergency was brought up. However, is your question even
relevant? It doesn't matter that I can hear up to 5 NWS transmitters where I
may be. The issue was with regard to the retransmission rule. To retransmit,
it first must be heard (obviously).

I've been in Mojave, up to Bishop and down in Imperial County and was
never out of earshot of an NOAA weather station...and THAT was in the late 80's
and early 90's. I used to sit in the Marine Expeditionary Airfield shelters
with my HT and copy NOAA.

And having BEEN in SoCal, I am intimately aware at how congested most of
the 2meter band is...All we need is for Uncle Same to "green light" the
rebroadcasts you suggest to have a whole band full of junior weathermen...What
next? Health reports on Ashley and Mary-Kate?

The Olsen Twins are not in the rules. NWS weather transmissions are. I leave
it to you to get the rules amended to add them if that's what you really want.

On Tue, 13 Jul 2004, Phil Kane wrote:
On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 07:34:56 -0400, WA wrote:

Wasn't it Cross who once stated The Great Liberty Net had a right
in perpetuity to 3950 kHz?

If it was I didn't pay attention to it.

Are you saying that we shouldn't pay any attention to his statement this time
as well?

On Tue, 13 Jul 2004, Ryan, KC8PMX wrote:
I would agree Phil, as that seems like the type of thing we SHOULD be able
to do as it would be in both the general public (with scanners) as well as
the ham radio public's general safety interest.

Also, AMBER alerts could be included as well as the HOMELAND security
stuff...... With AMBER alerts, the information could be shared within an
area affected, and if a ham sees the child, they could be trained to call
the authorities. (not take matters into their own hands....)

Yet, it is exactly that type of transmission that Mr. Cross called ILLEGAL in
his comments. He had better never need that system for one of his children:
"Sorry Mr. Cross. You, as an FCC employee, said that retransmitting an Amber
Alert was illegal. We can't help you."

On Wed, 13 Jul 2004, William wrote:
(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message ...
Subject: WX Receivers and Repeaters retransmitting non-weather alerts.
From: "D. Stussy"
Date: 7/12/2004 2:21 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004, Phil Kane wrote:
On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:18:15 GMT, D. Stussy wrote:
Why not petition to change the rules to allow such retransmission?

Because I believe that [simultaneous and automatic] retransmission is
ALREADY
PROVIDED FOR in the existing rules and should not be considered a
violation.
At most, the existing problem is one FCC employee's view - and thus a bad
ruling. What is there to actually change?

Dieter...r e a d t h i s v e r y s l o w l y ............

97.113(e) No station shall retransmit programs...(SNIP TO...)Propagation,
weather forecasts, and shuttle retransmissions may not be conducted on a
regular basis, but only occasionally, as an incident of normal amateur radio
communication

"...MAY NOT BE CONDUCTED ON A REGULAR BASIS..."

WHERE in that did you get the idea that "simultaneous and automatic"
retransmission is "already provided for"...?!?!?!

Deiter, if it occurred on a regular basis, then it would not cause
alarms to go off. It occurs only occasionally. And alarms then go
off.

??? Why are you addressing THAT to me? I didn't say that. SR said it.

I said that it IS (or should be) allowed, and that the FCC's William Cross
seems to be wrong as his answer appears to be contrary to the public good (an
implied mandate for the ARS via its "goodwill" and "emergency communication"
aspects).

What use would an alarm be if it occurred on a regular basis?

No kidding. Obviously, some responders to this topic have missed that point.

"D. Stussy" wrote in message rg...
On Mon, 12 Jul 2004, Steve Robeson K4CAP wrote:
Subject: WX Receivers and Repeaters retransmitting non-weather alerts.

And if you bothered to look at the current .113, there is also a "waiver" for
retransmitting NOAA/NWS weather transmissions - with the limitation that it is
NOT done on a continuous basis (communications emergency or failure
notwithstanding for which the rules in .400 ff. take priority anyway).

I DID read them, Dieter. You however, seem to think that ANY
acknowldegement of it's opportunity means you can retransmit that
audio "automatically".

The rules specifically say no.


Neither my $150 2 meter rig nor my $350 V/UHF rig have SAME function in
them either. What would be the point of having those alert tones squawking on
2M or 70CM...?!?!

Because those alert tones are part of "EAS," while the normal weather status
transmission isn't. Emergency communications that may affect life or property
are always ALLOWED - and the concept of the FCC enacting the new EAS to replace
EAB was to have it reach as many [people] as possible as soon as possible.
Yet, we have the FCC's Mr. Cross now saying that this is forbidden. If so,
then I think he's insane - a rules violation is clearly less significant than
saving someone's life.

No one's life is likely to be saved due to retransmitting NWS
audio on an Amateur transceiver, Dieter. Amateur transceivers don't
decode the SAME codes.

So...We bump the $20 up to $40...I can find at least a half dozen radios
in that price range that DO have SAME in them. So what then?

Personally, I'd rather keep the radio seperate so I could monitor NOAA
while keeping my 2M rig for 2-way purposes.

Well, no one said that YOU (or anyone else) HAD TO interface your local
repeater to a SAME-activated weatherradio. However, now that the rules do
permit it, why is there this "strange" interpretation of that rule?

There's nothing strange here EXCEPT your interpretation that this
would be a legitimate rebroadcast.

R E A D T H E R E G U L A T I O N, D I E T E R ! ! ! ! ! !

The places where NOAA transmissions can NOT be heard are extremely
few. I
am sure there is some remote butte in Montanna or some valley in West
Virginia
that has poor or no coverage...But certainly not enough for the FCC to
reverese
it's policy...Espeically in light of NOAA's expenditures to spread the net.
In
my "neighborhood" alone I can hear transmissions on 3 of the seven channels
on
an HT...I can imagine what I might hear with a dedicated receiver and
appropriate antenna.

Those Amateurs who want to hear it are usually already involved in
SKYWARN
and already know the frequencies to tune to. They don't have to cling to a
local repeater hoping that someone else will "rebroadcast" NOAA audio.

Then explain why the rules were changed a couple of years ago to permit
it....

Explain to me where it's permitted 24/7, Dieter...

Explain to me where it's allowed to be AUTOMATICALLY retransmitted.

Follow along:

97.113(e) No station shall retransmit programs or signals emanating from any
type of radio station other than an amateur station, except propagation and
weather forecast information intended for use by the general public and
originated from United States Government stations and communications, including
incidental music, originating on United States Government frequencies between a
space shuttle and its associated Earth stations. Prior approval for shuttle
retransmissions must be obtained from the National Aeronautics and Space
Administration. Such retransmissions must be for the exclusive use of amateur
operators. Propagation, weather forecasts, and shuttle retransmissions may not
be conducted on a regular basis, but only occasionally, as an incident of
normal amateur radio communications.

Re-read that LAST LINE over and over, Dieter.

I have. That does not forbid automatic retransmission.

It SPECIFICALLY says no automatic retransmissions, Dieter! ! !

It does forbid
scheduled, regular, and/or continuous retransmission. It permits occasional
retransmission. [Emergencies are also not "regular" in nature.]

And without the intervention of a control operator (manual
operation), how do you determine which transmissions are in compliance
with Part 97...?!?!

As for automatic, the issue arose with regard to a device that would be
interfaced to an amateur repeater, and repeaters MAY BE AUTOMATICALLY
CONTROLLED, so that's where the "automatic" aspect comes in.

You're trying to twist the regulation to fit YOUR interpretation.

You can try that excuse if Riley sends you a QSL, but the sting
from tjhe slap on the wrist you'll get will still hurt none-the-less.

So what would be your point? There's no way you can make those
rebroadcasts and NOT be assured that the broadcast was NOT being used by
non-Amateurs.

Not any more so than under circumstances where no shuttle or weather
transmissions are occuring. Amateur frequencies are often included in
scanners - devices which don't require an FCC license to operate.

No, they don't.

But FCC rules DO specify what we can "retransmit" via our
stations. Like I said...you go right ahead and push the envelope on
this one. I think you'll get your wrist slapped.

The only thing I gather from your statements is that you believe that ANY
retransmission of non-amateur communications is a rules violation.

Then you're not paying attention.

That also
is not what .113 says - it is permitting SOME types of non-amateur originated
communications to be [re]transmitted on an OCCASIONAL basis.

And that "OCCASSIONAL" basis will require that a livign, breathing
person make the determination as to whether to make the rebroadcast.

THAT is NOT "automatic".

How come I don't find Dieter Stussy in any of those NG's howling about the
inappropriateness of those posts...?!?!

1) I don't read every newsgroup.

Just the one's where you might get your feelings hurt?

2) Spam happens. You expect me to "explain the entire universe" to you?

No I don't. However Bill Pasternak's posts are not spam. YOU
may not like them, but that's you.

3) There is quite alot of "****" posts that happen here.

Most of them by persons who find it necessary to use profanity in
order to effectively express themselves. =)

4) What is the point of complaining about someone else's off-topic post if
nothing can or will be done about it? Here, there is someone to whom I can
complain about to get it stopped.

Yuo are one person "complaining" about a post that IS relevant to
this NG whether it meets YOUR definition or not.

5) For the most part, people RESPECT the purpose of the group and usually stay
on topic. Amateur radio seems to attract anarchists by its nature - and it is
clear what we have here is anarchy.

Only to you, and only due to your frustration with Bill.

Lastly, I didn't imply that this wasn't about the rules...It certainly
is...I just said I find it ironic that you want to play junior disc jockey with
NOAA weather broadcasts.

WHERE in LA County can you go and NOT hear an NOAA broadcast, Dieter?

If their transmitters fail, ANYWHERE! :-)

And when was the last time one failed and caused a problem?

Remember that Mr. Cross's comment was the same when the issue of a
communications emergency was brought up. However, is your question even
relevant? It doesn't matter that I can hear up to 5 NWS transmitters where I
may be. The issue was with regard to the retransmission rule. To retransmit,
it first must be heard (obviously).

And if you can hear it, what's the purpose of retransmitting it?

I've been in Mojave, up to Bishop and down in Imperial County and was
never out of earshot of an NOAA weather station...and THAT was in the late 80's
and early 90's. I used to sit in the Marine Expeditionary Airfield shelters
with my HT and copy NOAA.

And having BEEN in SoCal, I am intimately aware at how congested most of
the 2meter band is...All we need is for Uncle Same to "green light" the
rebroadcasts you suggest to have a whole band full of junior weathermen...What
next? Health reports on Ashley and Mary-Kate?

The Olsen Twins are not in the rules. NWS weather transmissions are. I leave
it to you to get the rules amended to add them if that's what you really want.

No, I leave it to YOU to get the rules ammended to what YOU want.
Right now automatic rebroadcast of NWS transmissions is NOT legal.

73

Steve, K4YZ