KØHB wrote:

"Mike Coslo" wrote


Maybe the answer is to have on on one testing, where the test
administrator comes to love with you for a week, to see if you

*really*

have knowledge of Ham radio....hehe.



I know I'll be a lot more choosy about which test sessions I agree to
proctor!


Lucky for you, I already made Extra. OY!



- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , Mike Coslo writes:

Make a question pool large enough, and there is no problem.

Sure there is.

I dunno, Jim. I can read a book, or I can look at a question pool. It's
all the same to me.

To you, yes. But to others, it may be very different.

Which do you *really* think requires more understanding of the mateiral and the
concepts behind it - a test where you don't know the exact Q&A beforehand, or
one where you do?

If you make questions up, you have to have a
reference for them someplace. Is it in a book? fine, study the book
then. Is it a question pool? Fine also.

*If* you only care about right answers rather than understanding.

Rote memorization? Seriously if anyone rote memorizes the General and
Extra tests, they are very intelligent and very stupid at the same time.

Depends on the person and the subject. In some areas, the only way to know the
material is rote memorization. (How long is a ham license term?)

And they will have a few curves thrown at them at test time.

How? The test questions are all in the pool. Read the pool and you have seen
every possible question and answer.

Heck, download the pool as a Word or text document, edit out the wrong answers,
print the questions up on 3x5 cards and just read the dern things while in the
room of many doors.

Remember the game "Trivial Pursuit"? When it was a big deal ~20 years ago, I
used to carry a handful of the cards in my pocket and read them at odd times
(on the subway, waiting for the elevator, etc.) Didn't consciously try to
memorize them, just read them. I was soon nearly unbeatable - as long as the
game used the Original edition cards.

The question pools have far fewer questions than the Trivial Pursuit cards did.

A thought: If a question pool is cheating, then a book with the answers
in the test in the course of reading is cheating too

Question pools don't equal cheating unless they are supposed to be
secret.

So...

The only way that *some* Hams will be happy is if the test questions
have answers in no book - that is to say that all testing will have to
be in the form of basic research - the new ham will have to advance the
state of the art in his/her admission test.


bwaaahaahaa

Otherwise the new ham is cheating and isn't as good as the old ham. 8^)

(I just recently had to listen to an old timer in person on a tirade
about the worthless new hams - again.)

Why did you have to listen? I find turning on my heel and walking away
does wonders. Or, looking the ranter straight in the eye and saying,
"You're just wrong...." (lookit how the oldest ranter here on rrap
reacts to being told he's wrong - which he often is....)

Well, it wasn't a case where I could or should have turned away. I
supposed I could have kicked the person out, but I also needed the help
he was giving on a task. Real life has a habit of modifying our
behavior. Plus ut wasn't a personal attack. Most hams I know think I'm a
relative old timer. But its still irritating.

Well, he was just plain wrong. The test is just one part of being qualified.

Every once in a while, I'll mention something like "Hey, I resemble
that remark!"

There was an old song called "Patches" that you may recall from high school
days. Man is remembering how tough he had it as a kid. Among the folks I grew
up with, we still use the line

"And then the rains came, and washed all the crops away"

whenever somebody starts geezering.

Besides, what it all comes down to is this:

Hams - old and new - didn't change the exam procedures. Neither did
ARRL, NCI, NCVEC or any other ham group. FCC did, because it saved
them resources.

We aren't going to a system other than multiple-choice
published-Q&A-pool exams in the foreseeable future. Just not gonna
happen.

Just a thought here... If we were to say, go to a book oriented
reference for the tests, I can assure you that it would be no better
than the pool based system.

Sure it would. But we're not going to go back to secret tests. Not gonna happen
- at least not anytime soon. Why get in a lather over it?

Thousands and thousands of college students
prove this on a daily basis, pulling all-nighters, cramming to take
their tests. All the crammed knowledge is placed in shirt term memory,
to quickly fade after the test is over.

That only works for some people. And recall that for most of those students,
the cramming is not the only preparation done.

Maybe the answer is to have on on one testing, where the test
administrator comes to love with you for a week, to see if you *really*
have knowledge of Ham radio....hehe.

If the test administrator looks like Heidi Klum, or if I get to be *her* test
administrator, I'll volunteer to put the system throuigh its paces. Heck, I'll
sign up for two weeks......

73 de Jim, N2EY

N2EY wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo writes:


Make a question pool large enough, and there is no problem.



Sure there is.


I dunno, Jim. I can read a book, or I can look at a question pool. It's
all the same to me.


To you, yes. But to others, it may be very different.

Well, I only know how my mind works.

The exact process I used for getting my license was:

First I took an online test. First couple times did just awful. In both
General and Extra, I started out at about the 50 percent level.

Downloaded the question pool. Used it as reading material on the throne
and around the house. But mostly as a post-test reference

Continued taking the online tests. For every question I got wrong on
the tests, I researched out the answer. Sources were reference books and
the 'net.

Continued until I scored 100 percent pretty consistently.

Which do you *really* think requires more understanding of the mateiral and the
concepts behind it - a test where you don't know the exact Q&A beforehand, or
one where you do?

All the same to me. And I think my method above says something more.
Being smart is not necessarily knowing something - it is knowing what
you know, knowing what you don't know, and knowing where to get the
answer so you *do* know.


If you make questions up, you have to have a
reference for them someplace. Is it in a book? fine, study the book
then. Is it a question pool? Fine also.


*If* you only care about right answers rather than understanding.

Not really. I saw a electrician licensing test book with question pool
recently. Lives depend on the electrician doing safe and proper work.
and they are depending on the Electrician knowing.

Rote memorization? Seriously if anyone rote memorizes the General and
Extra tests, they are very intelligent and very stupid at the same time.


Depends on the person and the subject. In some areas, the only way to know the
material is rote memorization. (How long is a ham license term?)

Of course, but that is diluting the issue. No other way to learn that
stuff.


And they will have a few curves thrown at them at test time.


How? The test questions are all in the pool. Read the pool and you have seen
every possible question and answer.

All my tests have been from the question pool, so it is something I
have some advantage over many people here. Actual knowledge rather than
opinion.

The answers are not always in the same order as they are in the pool. I
experienced this in my Extra test. And if the person knows the text of
the answer, they almost certainly *know* the answer. That takes a level
of understanding much greater than "This question's answer is "D"


Heck, download the pool as a Word or text document, edit out the wrong answers,
print the questions up on 3x5 cards and just read the dern things while in the
room of many doors.

Remember the game "Trivial Pursuit"? When it was a big deal ~20 years ago, I
used to carry a handful of the cards in my pocket and read them at odd times
(on the subway, waiting for the elevator, etc.) Didn't consciously try to
memorize them, just read them. I was soon nearly unbeatable - as long as the
game used the Original edition cards.

The question pools have far fewer questions than the Trivial Pursuit cards did.


A thought: If a question pool is cheating, then a book with the answers
in the test in the course of reading is cheating too



Question pools don't equal cheating unless they are supposed to be
secret.


So...

The only way that *some* Hams will be happy is if the test questions
have answers in no book - that is to say that all testing will have to
be in the form of basic research - the new ham will have to advance the
state of the art in his/her admission test.


bwaaahaahaa


Otherwise the new ham is cheating and isn't as good as the old ham. 8^)


(I just recently had to listen to an old timer in person on a tirade
about the worthless new hams - again.)



Why did you have to listen? I find turning on my heel and walking away
does wonders. Or, looking the ranter straight in the eye and saying,
"You're just wrong...." (lookit how the oldest ranter here on rrap
reacts to being told he's wrong - which he often is....)

Well, it wasn't a case where I could or should have turned away. I
supposed I could have kicked the person out, but I also needed the help
he was giving on a task. Real life has a habit of modifying our
behavior. Plus ut wasn't a personal attack. Most hams I know think I'm a
relative old timer. But its still irritating.


Well, he was just plain wrong. The test is just one part of being qualified.

Of course. But sometimes we have to work with people that are just
plain wrong.

Every once in a while, I'll mention something like "Hey, I resemble
that remark!"


There was an old song called "Patches" that you may recall from high school
days. Man is remembering how tough he had it as a kid. Among the folks I grew
up with, we still use the line

"And then the rains came, and washed all the crops away"

whenever somebody starts geezering.

hehe, I used to do a good rendition of the line after that - "And at
the age of thirteen, I felt I had the weight of the whooole world on my
shoulders" 8^)


Besides, what it all comes down to is this:

Hams - old and new - didn't change the exam procedures. Neither did
ARRL, NCI, NCVEC or any other ham group. FCC did, because it saved
them resources.

We aren't going to a system other than multiple-choice
published-Q&A-pool exams in the foreseeable future. Just not gonna
happen.

Just a thought here... If we were to say, go to a book oriented
reference for the tests, I can assure you that it would be no better
than the pool based system.


Sure it would. But we're not going to go back to secret tests. Not gonna happen
- at least not anytime soon. Why get in a lather over it?


Thousands and thousands of college students
prove this on a daily basis, pulling all-nighters, cramming to take
their tests. All the crammed knowledge is placed in shirt term memory,
to quickly fade after the test is over.


That only works for some people. And recall that for most of those students,
the cramming is not the only preparation done.

Maybe the answer is to have on on one testing, where the test
administrator comes to love with you for a week, to see if you *really*
have knowledge of Ham radio....hehe.


If the test administrator looks like Heidi Klum, or if I get to be *her* test
administrator, I'll volunteer to put the system throuigh its paces. Heck, I'll
sign up for two weeks......

Hey, maybe my dum typo was Karma! This might be the way to increase the
numbers of Hams! People would demand to be retested every year or so.
And the YL's could pick their own instructors........

- Mike KB3EIA -

"N2EY" wrote in message
om...
(SNIP)
Besides, what it all comes down to is this:

Hams - old and new - didn't change the exam procedures. Neither did
ARRL, NCI, NCVEC or any other ham group. FCC did, because it saved
them resources.

We aren't going to a system other than multiple-choice
published-Q&A-pool exams in the foreseeable future. Just not gonna
happen.

73 de Jim, N2EY

More accurate to say: The systemn of multiple choice with
published Q&A is here to stay.

Cheers,
Bill

I wrote this just after I replied to Steve about that lovely YL that
worked for one of the Ham radio stores. Must have been a delayed
Freudian slip.... I hope! 8^P.



"Oh Honey, tell me more about the Q or LRC circuits... (kiss kiss)..."
;-)

"Bill Sohl" wrote in message link.net...
"N2EY" wrote in message
om...
(SNIP)
Besides, what it all comes down to is this:

Hams - old and new - didn't change the exam procedures. Neither did
ARRL, NCI, NCVEC or any other ham group. FCC did, because it saved
them resources.

We aren't going to a system other than multiple-choice
published-Q&A-pool exams in the foreseeable future. Just not gonna
happen.

73 de Jim, N2EY

More accurate to say: The systemn of multiple choice with
published Q&A is here to stay.

How's that more accurate, Bill?

It's always possible that the test system could change. Not very
probable, but possible.

But I wouldn't bet on it.

73 de Jim, N2EY

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Hey, maybe my dum typo was Karma! This might be the way to increase the
numbers of Hams! People would demand to be retested every year or so.

My karma just ran over your dogma... :-)

LHA / WMD

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:
In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

N2EY wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote in message

...

1. Most everything is done that way today.

Doesn't make it right!

Make a question pool large enough, and there is no problem.

Sure there is.

I dunno, Jim. I can read a book, or I can look at a question pool. It's

If the New ham radio tests are different than what Rev. Jim took, they
are WRONG. :-)


all the same to me. If you make questions up, you have to have a
reference for them someplace. Is it in a book? fine, study the book
then. Is it a question pool? Fine also.

Rote memorization? Seriously if anyone rote memorizes the General and
Extra tests, they are very intelligent and very stupid at the same time.
And they will have a few curves thrown at them at test time.

Mike, the Regulations on privatized testing always specified a
MINIMUM of ten questions for every required question on a test,
amateur or commercial.

Well there we go! Some 800 questions (maybe more) are in the present
Extra pool. I just did a BOE calculation from a QP PDF (what the world
needs is more acronyms, eh?)

"Back of the Envelope" calculation from a "Question Pool" "Portable
Document Format" (Adobe) file. :-)

I've got no problems with acronyms, Mike. :-)

Has the Extra QP set increased in size?


The test question pools were generated for the least amount of
lawful effort. For amateur tests the VEC QPC is responsible.

The amateur QP could have a hundred times the required questions
and the total would defeat all the "charges" of "not right" just from
the immensity of a memorization effort. [for all but the eidetic]

Increasing the QP size is perfectly legal under the law. :-)

No comment?

It's been perfectly legal to make the QP much larger than 10 times.
Since at least 1997...when I got the first access of all bound volumes
of Title 47 (five total). Everyone seems to think that 10 times the
required number is all that can be done... :-)


Otherwise the new ham is cheating and isn't as good as the old ham. 8^)

(I just recently had to listen to an old timer in person on a tirade
about the worthless new hams - again.)

Why did you have to listen? I find turning on my heel and walking away
does wonders. Or, looking the ranter straight in the eye and saying,
"You're just wrong...." (lookit how the oldest ranter here on rrap
reacts to being told he's wrong - which he often is....)

Well, it wasn't a case where I could or should have turned away. I
supposed I could have kicked the person out, but I also needed the help
he was giving on a task. Real life has a habit of modifying our
behavior. Plus ut wasn't a personal attack. Most hams I know think I'm a
relative old timer. But its still irritating.

It's not a question of longevity with Rev. Jim. He Is Right and won't
accept anything contrary to His Sacred Vision. :-)

It boils down to the OFs elevating themselves far out of reality on
"how good they were/are" in the way of the Sacred Olde Tests. If
They did it, it is "right." If it isn't done as They did it, it is
"wrong."

That's the bottom line in all of these test issues. :-)

Yes, truly. :-)

These OFs, just like MARS, "IS ham radio!" Hi, hi.

Hams - old and new - didn't change the exam procedures. Neither did
ARRL, NCI, NCVEC or any other ham group. FCC did, because it saved
them resources.

We aren't going to a system other than multiple-choice
published-Q&A-pool exams in the foreseeable future. Just not gonna
happen.

Just a thought here... If we were to say, go to a book oriented
reference for the tests, I can assure you that it would be no better
than the pool based system. Thousands and thousands of college students
prove this on a daily basis, pulling all-nighters, cramming to take
their tests. All the crammed knowledge is placed in shirt term memory,
to quickly fade after the test is over.

Mike, amateur radio is "different." It is different because the OF's
tests were the "correct way" to do it. :-)

Never mind that multiple-choice testing is accepted nearly
everywhere else (even done in the Sacred Olde Tests) by
academics and government agencies.

Amateur radio is not a hobby. It is much, much more that that to
the OFs. It is a "service." It has "unchangeable" rules that must be
kept always and forever the same lest it become "incorrect." :-)

Well, I *do* get pretty excited over it, and am having a lot of fun.

That's the object of a hobby, isn't it?

That's NOT what I hear from the "professional amateurs" in here... :-)

To them is IS a lifestyle, a "service," a "corps," and all who do not
think like them are roundly denigrated as sexual perverts or un-
patriotic or "hating the entire hobby" and "always being wrong."


Another poster has apparently just learned that COLEMs (the
commercial test givers) "also have question pools!" Amazing.
It's been that way since privatized testing began. But, it was just
noticed! [anyone can look in the first bound volume of Title 47 and
see the commercial license requirements except nothing about
that or the three middle volumes are mentioned much in ham
radio places...that has "nothing to do with hamme raddio!" yell the
purists...:-) ]

At Barnes and Noble the other day I saw an electrician licensing
question pool. Seems what they do is important and they need to know
what they are doing.

"Electricians get into other people's shorts." - anon. tagline

Residential electric power wiring is rather straightforward, established,
and standardized. By most local government codes. It IS important
since faulty wiring can lead to destruction of an expensive residence
and, in apartments and condos, loss of many other units.

Electricians are professionals. They aren't amateurs. They don't
belong to a noble "service" to the country, etc., etc., etc. :-)


The anti-public-question-pool purists don't have much of validity
in their "memorization" charges...but it's about the only one they
can come up with...so they must push and push on that to justify
their public words. :-)

BTW, that surprise I noted for anyone that *was* stupid enough to rote
memorize the Extra pool is that the ABCD order of the answers is
sometimes switched. That would almost certainly throw the person off
balance if they didn't actually know the material.

It is NOT good mnemoics practice to do memorization that way, by
abstract relationships of letters to known questions.

I suppose it can be done, but the effort is much, much greater to
achieve any sort of accuracy in recall.

On the other hand, if the method achieves the success of being given
the High Prize of a ham license, then they are One Of You. :-)

Such meaningless memorization is only slightly behind the blind,
unswerving loyalty to the Church of St. Hiram in Newington, isn't it?

The blind belief that morsemanship is the ultimate skill achievement
in radio communications of this new millennium seems to be one of
the dumb and dumber aspects of modern U.S. radio amateurism.
Even dumber is that a morse-based NTS is somehow a "backbone"
of national emergency communications...or that on-off keyed morse
code "gets through when nothing else does."

LHA / WMD

"KØHB" wrote in message ink.net...
"Mike Coslo" wrote


Maybe the answer is to have on on one testing, where the test
administrator comes to love with you for a week, to see if you
*really*
have knowledge of Ham radio....hehe.


I know I'll be a lot more choosy about which test sessions I agree to
proctor!

73, de Hans, K0HB

Dick Carrol/W0EX quit administering tests because he thought the new
applicants were unworthy.

"William" wrote

Dick Carrol/W0EX quit administering tests because he thought the new
applicants were unworthy.

Good for him.

But I'm not concerned with "worthy". If I'm going to have to "love with
them for a week" as Coslo proposes, well then ......

73, de Hans, K0HB