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FCC Morse testing at 16 and 20 WPM
Quote from FCC web, http://wireless.fcc.gov/commoperators/t2.html
"Telegraphy Examinations Elements Element 1 - 16 code groups per minute. Element 2 - 20 code groups per minute. Telegraphy exams consist of both transmitting and receiving tests. Examinees must copy by ear and send by hand plain text and code groups in the international Morse code using all the letters of the alphabet, numerals 0-9, period, comma, question mark, slant mark, and prosigns AR, BT, and SK. Examinees must copy and send at the required speeds for one continuous minute without making any errors. Each test lasts approximately five minutes. The failing of any code test automatically terminates the examination. Code speeds are computed using five letters per word or code group. Punctuation symbols and numbers count as two letters each. Examinees may use their own typewriter to copy the 25 words-per-minute receiving test, but must copy tests at lower speeds by hand. Likewise, examinees may use their own semi-automatic key to send the 25 word-per-minute sending test, but must send tests at lower speeds using a hand key. The Commission will grant credit for Telegraphy Elements 1 and 2 to applicants who hold an unexpired (or within the grace period) FCC-issued Amateur Extra Class operator license." |
I went exploring further on the FCC site and found that the question
pools -- with answers -- are available for the various Commercial Radio Operator license exams, just as they are for the Amateur exams. And ISTR reading that the FCC had adopted the practice of using published questions and answers after finding that the system worked OK for the FAA for pilots' licenses. So if the Amateur license tests are being dumbed down, they are not the only oner. Alan AB2OS On 07/11/04 06:58 pm Avery Hightower put fingers to keyboard and launched the following message into cyberspace: Quote from FCC web, http://wireless.fcc.gov/commoperators/t2.html "Telegraphy Examinations Elements Element 1 - 16 code groups per minute. Element 2 - 20 code groups per minute. Telegraphy exams consist of both transmitting and receiving tests. Examinees must copy by ear and send by hand plain text and code groups in the international Morse code using all the letters of the alphabet, numerals 0-9, period, comma, question mark, slant mark, and prosigns AR, BT, and SK. Examinees must copy and send at the required speeds for one continuous minute without making any errors. Each test lasts approximately five minutes. The failing of any code test automatically terminates the examination. Code speeds are computed using five letters per word or code group. Punctuation symbols and numbers count as two letters each. Examinees may use their own typewriter to copy the 25 words-per-minute receiving test, but must copy tests at lower speeds by hand. Likewise, examinees may use their own semi-automatic key to send the 25 word-per-minute sending test, but must send tests at lower speeds using a hand key. The Commission will grant credit for Telegraphy Elements 1 and 2 to applicants who hold an unexpired (or within the grace period) FCC-issued Amateur Extra Class operator license." |
Minnie Bannister wrote: I went exploring further on the FCC site and found that the question pools -- with answers -- are available for the various Commercial Radio Operator license exams, just as they are for the Amateur exams. And ISTR reading that the FCC had adopted the practice of using published questions and answers after finding that the system worked OK for the FAA for pilots' licenses. So if the Amateur license tests are being dumbed down, they are not the only oner. 1. Most everything is done that way today. Make a question pool large enough, and there is no problem. A thought: If a question pool is cheating, then a book with the answers in the test in the course of reading is cheating too. So... The only way that *some* Hams will be happy is if the test questions have answers in no book - that is to say that all testing will have to be in the form of basic research - the new ham will have to advance the state of the art in his/her admission test. Otherwise the new ham is cheating and isn't as good as the old ham. 8^) (I just recently had to listen to an old timer in person on a tirade about the worthless new hams - again.) - Mike KB3EIA - |
Mike Coslo wrote in message ...
1. Most everything is done that way today. Doesn't make it right! Make a question pool large enough, and there is no problem. Sure there is. A thought: If a question pool is cheating, then a book with the answers in the test in the course of reading is cheating too Question pools don't equal cheating unless they are supposed to be secret. So... The only way that *some* Hams will be happy is if the test questions have answers in no book - that is to say that all testing will have to be in the form of basic research - the new ham will have to advance the state of the art in his/her admission test. bwaaahaahaa Otherwise the new ham is cheating and isn't as good as the old ham. 8^) (I just recently had to listen to an old timer in person on a tirade about the worthless new hams - again.) Why did you have to listen? I find turning on my heel and walking away does wonders. Or, looking the ranter straight in the eye and saying, "You're just wrong...." (lookit how the oldest ranter here on rrap reacts to being told he's wrong - which he often is....) Besides, what it all comes down to is this: Hams - old and new - didn't change the exam procedures. Neither did ARRL, NCI, NCVEC or any other ham group. FCC did, because it saved them resources. We aren't going to a system other than multiple-choice published-Q&A-pool exams in the foreseeable future. Just not gonna happen. 73 de Jim, N2EY |
N2EY wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in message ... 1. Most everything is done that way today. Doesn't make it right! Make a question pool large enough, and there is no problem. Sure there is. I dunno, Jim. I can read a book, or I can look at a question pool. It's all the same to me. If you make questions up, you have to have a reference for them someplace. Is it in a book? fine, study the book then. Is it a question pool? Fine also. Rote memorization? Seriously if anyone rote memorizes the General and Extra tests, they are very intelligent and very stupid at the same time. And they will have a few curves thrown at them at test time. A thought: If a question pool is cheating, then a book with the answers in the test in the course of reading is cheating too Question pools don't equal cheating unless they are supposed to be secret. So... The only way that *some* Hams will be happy is if the test questions have answers in no book - that is to say that all testing will have to be in the form of basic research - the new ham will have to advance the state of the art in his/her admission test. bwaaahaahaa Otherwise the new ham is cheating and isn't as good as the old ham. 8^) (I just recently had to listen to an old timer in person on a tirade about the worthless new hams - again.) Why did you have to listen? I find turning on my heel and walking away does wonders. Or, looking the ranter straight in the eye and saying, "You're just wrong...." (lookit how the oldest ranter here on rrap reacts to being told he's wrong - which he often is....) Well, it wasn't a case where I could or should have turned away. I supposed I could have kicked the person out, but I also needed the help he was giving on a task. Real life has a habit of modifying our behavior. Plus ut wasn't a personal attack. Most hams I know think I'm a relative old timer. But its still irritating. Every once in a while, I'll mention something like "Hey, I resemble that remark!" Besides, what it all comes down to is this: Hams - old and new - didn't change the exam procedures. Neither did ARRL, NCI, NCVEC or any other ham group. FCC did, because it saved them resources. We aren't going to a system other than multiple-choice published-Q&A-pool exams in the foreseeable future. Just not gonna happen. Just a thought here... If we were to say, go to a book oriented reference for the tests, I can assure you that it would be no better than the pool based system. Thousands and thousands of college students prove this on a daily basis, pulling all-nighters, cramming to take their tests. All the crammed knowledge is placed in shirt term memory, to quickly fade after the test is over. Maybe the answer is to have on on one testing, where the test administrator comes to love with you for a week, to see if you *really* have knowledge of Ham radio....hehe. - Mike KB3EIA - |
Mike Coslo wrote:
Maybe the answer is to have on on one testing, where the test administrator comes to love with you for a week... I can only hope that's a typo buried there, Mike. Dave K8MN |
"Mike Coslo" wrote Maybe the answer is to have on on one testing, where the test administrator comes to love with you for a week, to see if you *really* have knowledge of Ham radio....hehe. I know I'll be a lot more choosy about which test sessions I agree to proctor! 73, de Hans, K0HB |
Len Over 21 wrote:
In article , Mike Coslo writes: N2EY wrote: Mike Coslo wrote in message ... 1. Most everything is done that way today. Doesn't make it right! Make a question pool large enough, and there is no problem. Sure there is. I dunno, Jim. I can read a book, or I can look at a question pool. It's all the same to me. If you make questions up, you have to have a reference for them someplace. Is it in a book? fine, study the book then. Is it a question pool? Fine also. Rote memorization? Seriously if anyone rote memorizes the General and Extra tests, they are very intelligent and very stupid at the same time. And they will have a few curves thrown at them at test time. Mike, the Regulations on privatized testing always specified a MINIMUM of ten questions for every required question on a test, amateur or commercial. Well there we go! Some 800 questions (maybe more) are in the present Extra pool. I just did a BOE calculation from a QP PDF (what the world needs is more acronyms, eh?) The test question pools were generated for the least amount of lawful effort. For amateur tests the VEC QPC is responsible. The amateur QP could have a hundred times the required questions and the total would defeat all the "charges" of "not right" just from the immensity of a memorization effort. [for all but the eidetic] Increasing the QP size is perfectly legal under the law. :-) A thought: If a question pool is cheating, then a book with the answers in the test in the course of reading is cheating too Question pools don't equal cheating unless they are supposed to be secret. So... The only way that *some* Hams will be happy is if the test questions have answers in no book - that is to say that all testing will have to be in the form of basic research - the new ham will have to advance the state of the art in his/her admission test. bwaaahaahaa Otherwise the new ham is cheating and isn't as good as the old ham. 8^) (I just recently had to listen to an old timer in person on a tirade about the worthless new hams - again.) Why did you have to listen? I find turning on my heel and walking away does wonders. Or, looking the ranter straight in the eye and saying, "You're just wrong...." (lookit how the oldest ranter here on rrap reacts to being told he's wrong - which he often is....) Well, it wasn't a case where I could or should have turned away. I supposed I could have kicked the person out, but I also needed the help he was giving on a task. Real life has a habit of modifying our behavior. Plus ut wasn't a personal attack. Most hams I know think I'm a relative old timer. But its still irritating. It's not a question of longevity with Rev. Jim. He Is Right and won't accept anything contrary to His Sacred Vision. :-) It boils down to the OFs elevating themselves far out of reality on "how good they were/are" in the way of the Sacred Olde Tests. If They did it, it is "right." If it isn't done as They did it, it is "wrong." That's the bottom line in all of these test issues. :-) Hams - old and new - didn't change the exam procedures. Neither did ARRL, NCI, NCVEC or any other ham group. FCC did, because it saved them resources. We aren't going to a system other than multiple-choice published-Q&A-pool exams in the foreseeable future. Just not gonna happen. Just a thought here... If we were to say, go to a book oriented reference for the tests, I can assure you that it would be no better than the pool based system. Thousands and thousands of college students prove this on a daily basis, pulling all-nighters, cramming to take their tests. All the crammed knowledge is placed in shirt term memory, to quickly fade after the test is over. Mike, amateur radio is "different." It is different because the OF's tests were the "correct way" to do it. :-) Never mind that multiple-choice testing is accepted nearly everywhere else (even done in the Sacred Olde Tests) by academics and government agencies. Amateur radio is not a hobby. It is much, much more that that to the OFs. It is a "service." It has "unchangeable" rules that must be kept always and forever the same lest it become "incorrect." :-) Well, I *do* get pretty excited over it, and am having a lot of fun. Another poster has apparently just learned that COLEMs (the commercial test givers) "also have question pools!" Amazing. It's been that way since privatized testing began. But, it was just noticed! [anyone can look in the first bound volume of Title 47 and see the commercial license requirements except nothing about that or the three middle volumes are mentioned much in ham radio places...that has "nothing to do with hamme raddio!" yell the purists...:-) ] At Barnes and Noble the other day I saw an electrician licensing question pool. Seems what they do is important and they need to know what they are doing. The anti-public-question-pool purists don't have much of validity in their "memorization" charges...but it's about the only one they can come up with...so they must push and push on that to justify their public words. :-) BTW, that surprise I noted for anyone that *was* stupid enough to rote memorize the Extra pool is that the ABCD order of the answers is sometimes switched. That would almost certainly throw the person off balance if they didn't actually know the material. |
Dave Heil wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote: Maybe the answer is to have on on one testing, where the test administrator comes to love with you for a week... I can only hope that's a typo buried there, Mike. Oh sheesh! Oh sheesh! that may be my worst typo yet! I wrote this just after I replied to Steve about that lovely YL that worked for one of the Ham radio stores. Must have been a delayed Freudian slip.... I hope! 8^P. I always like to have one good laugh a day. Today I made my own.... sheesh! - Mike KB3EIA - |
KØHB wrote: "Mike Coslo" wrote Maybe the answer is to have on on one testing, where the test administrator comes to love with you for a week, to see if you *really* have knowledge of Ham radio....hehe. I know I'll be a lot more choosy about which test sessions I agree to proctor! Lucky for you, I already made Extra. OY! - Mike KB3EIA - |
In article , Mike Coslo writes:
Make a question pool large enough, and there is no problem. Sure there is. I dunno, Jim. I can read a book, or I can look at a question pool. It's all the same to me. To you, yes. But to others, it may be very different. Which do you *really* think requires more understanding of the mateiral and the concepts behind it - a test where you don't know the exact Q&A beforehand, or one where you do? If you make questions up, you have to have a reference for them someplace. Is it in a book? fine, study the book then. Is it a question pool? Fine also. *If* you only care about right answers rather than understanding. Rote memorization? Seriously if anyone rote memorizes the General and Extra tests, they are very intelligent and very stupid at the same time. Depends on the person and the subject. In some areas, the only way to know the material is rote memorization. (How long is a ham license term?) And they will have a few curves thrown at them at test time. How? The test questions are all in the pool. Read the pool and you have seen every possible question and answer. Heck, download the pool as a Word or text document, edit out the wrong answers, print the questions up on 3x5 cards and just read the dern things while in the room of many doors. Remember the game "Trivial Pursuit"? When it was a big deal ~20 years ago, I used to carry a handful of the cards in my pocket and read them at odd times (on the subway, waiting for the elevator, etc.) Didn't consciously try to memorize them, just read them. I was soon nearly unbeatable - as long as the game used the Original edition cards. The question pools have far fewer questions than the Trivial Pursuit cards did. A thought: If a question pool is cheating, then a book with the answers in the test in the course of reading is cheating too Question pools don't equal cheating unless they are supposed to be secret. So... The only way that *some* Hams will be happy is if the test questions have answers in no book - that is to say that all testing will have to be in the form of basic research - the new ham will have to advance the state of the art in his/her admission test. bwaaahaahaa Otherwise the new ham is cheating and isn't as good as the old ham. 8^) (I just recently had to listen to an old timer in person on a tirade about the worthless new hams - again.) Why did you have to listen? I find turning on my heel and walking away does wonders. Or, looking the ranter straight in the eye and saying, "You're just wrong...." (lookit how the oldest ranter here on rrap reacts to being told he's wrong - which he often is....) Well, it wasn't a case where I could or should have turned away. I supposed I could have kicked the person out, but I also needed the help he was giving on a task. Real life has a habit of modifying our behavior. Plus ut wasn't a personal attack. Most hams I know think I'm a relative old timer. But its still irritating. Well, he was just plain wrong. The test is just one part of being qualified. Every once in a while, I'll mention something like "Hey, I resemble that remark!" There was an old song called "Patches" that you may recall from high school days. Man is remembering how tough he had it as a kid. Among the folks I grew up with, we still use the line "And then the rains came, and washed all the crops away" whenever somebody starts geezering. Besides, what it all comes down to is this: Hams - old and new - didn't change the exam procedures. Neither did ARRL, NCI, NCVEC or any other ham group. FCC did, because it saved them resources. We aren't going to a system other than multiple-choice published-Q&A-pool exams in the foreseeable future. Just not gonna happen. Just a thought here... If we were to say, go to a book oriented reference for the tests, I can assure you that it would be no better than the pool based system. Sure it would. But we're not going to go back to secret tests. Not gonna happen - at least not anytime soon. Why get in a lather over it? Thousands and thousands of college students prove this on a daily basis, pulling all-nighters, cramming to take their tests. All the crammed knowledge is placed in shirt term memory, to quickly fade after the test is over. That only works for some people. And recall that for most of those students, the cramming is not the only preparation done. Maybe the answer is to have on on one testing, where the test administrator comes to love with you for a week, to see if you *really* have knowledge of Ham radio....hehe. If the test administrator looks like Heidi Klum, or if I get to be *her* test administrator, I'll volunteer to put the system throuigh its paces. Heck, I'll sign up for two weeks...... 73 de Jim, N2EY |
N2EY wrote:
In article , Mike Coslo writes: Make a question pool large enough, and there is no problem. Sure there is. I dunno, Jim. I can read a book, or I can look at a question pool. It's all the same to me. To you, yes. But to others, it may be very different. Well, I only know how my mind works. The exact process I used for getting my license was: First I took an online test. First couple times did just awful. In both General and Extra, I started out at about the 50 percent level. Downloaded the question pool. Used it as reading material on the throne and around the house. But mostly as a post-test reference Continued taking the online tests. For every question I got wrong on the tests, I researched out the answer. Sources were reference books and the 'net. Continued until I scored 100 percent pretty consistently. Which do you *really* think requires more understanding of the mateiral and the concepts behind it - a test where you don't know the exact Q&A beforehand, or one where you do? All the same to me. And I think my method above says something more. Being smart is not necessarily knowing something - it is knowing what you know, knowing what you don't know, and knowing where to get the answer so you *do* know. If you make questions up, you have to have a reference for them someplace. Is it in a book? fine, study the book then. Is it a question pool? Fine also. *If* you only care about right answers rather than understanding. Not really. I saw a electrician licensing test book with question pool recently. Lives depend on the electrician doing safe and proper work. and they are depending on the Electrician knowing. Rote memorization? Seriously if anyone rote memorizes the General and Extra tests, they are very intelligent and very stupid at the same time. Depends on the person and the subject. In some areas, the only way to know the material is rote memorization. (How long is a ham license term?) Of course, but that is diluting the issue. No other way to learn that stuff. And they will have a few curves thrown at them at test time. How? The test questions are all in the pool. Read the pool and you have seen every possible question and answer. All my tests have been from the question pool, so it is something I have some advantage over many people here. Actual knowledge rather than opinion. The answers are not always in the same order as they are in the pool. I experienced this in my Extra test. And if the person knows the text of the answer, they almost certainly *know* the answer. That takes a level of understanding much greater than "This question's answer is "D" Heck, download the pool as a Word or text document, edit out the wrong answers, print the questions up on 3x5 cards and just read the dern things while in the room of many doors. Remember the game "Trivial Pursuit"? When it was a big deal ~20 years ago, I used to carry a handful of the cards in my pocket and read them at odd times (on the subway, waiting for the elevator, etc.) Didn't consciously try to memorize them, just read them. I was soon nearly unbeatable - as long as the game used the Original edition cards. The question pools have far fewer questions than the Trivial Pursuit cards did. A thought: If a question pool is cheating, then a book with the answers in the test in the course of reading is cheating too Question pools don't equal cheating unless they are supposed to be secret. So... The only way that *some* Hams will be happy is if the test questions have answers in no book - that is to say that all testing will have to be in the form of basic research - the new ham will have to advance the state of the art in his/her admission test. bwaaahaahaa Otherwise the new ham is cheating and isn't as good as the old ham. 8^) (I just recently had to listen to an old timer in person on a tirade about the worthless new hams - again.) Why did you have to listen? I find turning on my heel and walking away does wonders. Or, looking the ranter straight in the eye and saying, "You're just wrong...." (lookit how the oldest ranter here on rrap reacts to being told he's wrong - which he often is....) Well, it wasn't a case where I could or should have turned away. I supposed I could have kicked the person out, but I also needed the help he was giving on a task. Real life has a habit of modifying our behavior. Plus ut wasn't a personal attack. Most hams I know think I'm a relative old timer. But its still irritating. Well, he was just plain wrong. The test is just one part of being qualified. Of course. But sometimes we have to work with people that are just plain wrong. Every once in a while, I'll mention something like "Hey, I resemble that remark!" There was an old song called "Patches" that you may recall from high school days. Man is remembering how tough he had it as a kid. Among the folks I grew up with, we still use the line "And then the rains came, and washed all the crops away" whenever somebody starts geezering. hehe, I used to do a good rendition of the line after that - "And at the age of thirteen, I felt I had the weight of the whooole world on my shoulders" 8^) Besides, what it all comes down to is this: Hams - old and new - didn't change the exam procedures. Neither did ARRL, NCI, NCVEC or any other ham group. FCC did, because it saved them resources. We aren't going to a system other than multiple-choice published-Q&A-pool exams in the foreseeable future. Just not gonna happen. Just a thought here... If we were to say, go to a book oriented reference for the tests, I can assure you that it would be no better than the pool based system. Sure it would. But we're not going to go back to secret tests. Not gonna happen - at least not anytime soon. Why get in a lather over it? Thousands and thousands of college students prove this on a daily basis, pulling all-nighters, cramming to take their tests. All the crammed knowledge is placed in shirt term memory, to quickly fade after the test is over. That only works for some people. And recall that for most of those students, the cramming is not the only preparation done. Maybe the answer is to have on on one testing, where the test administrator comes to love with you for a week, to see if you *really* have knowledge of Ham radio....hehe. If the test administrator looks like Heidi Klum, or if I get to be *her* test administrator, I'll volunteer to put the system throuigh its paces. Heck, I'll sign up for two weeks...... Hey, maybe my dum typo was Karma! This might be the way to increase the numbers of Hams! People would demand to be retested every year or so. And the YL's could pick their own instructors........ - Mike KB3EIA - |
"N2EY" wrote in message om... (SNIP) Besides, what it all comes down to is this: Hams - old and new - didn't change the exam procedures. Neither did ARRL, NCI, NCVEC or any other ham group. FCC did, because it saved them resources. We aren't going to a system other than multiple-choice published-Q&A-pool exams in the foreseeable future. Just not gonna happen. 73 de Jim, N2EY More accurate to say: The systemn of multiple choice with published Q&A is here to stay. Cheers, Bill |
I wrote this just after I replied to Steve about that lovely YL that worked for one of the Ham radio stores. Must have been a delayed Freudian slip.... I hope! 8^P. "Oh Honey, tell me more about the Q or LRC circuits... (kiss kiss)..." ;-) |
"Bill Sohl" wrote in message link.net...
"N2EY" wrote in message om... (SNIP) Besides, what it all comes down to is this: Hams - old and new - didn't change the exam procedures. Neither did ARRL, NCI, NCVEC or any other ham group. FCC did, because it saved them resources. We aren't going to a system other than multiple-choice published-Q&A-pool exams in the foreseeable future. Just not gonna happen. 73 de Jim, N2EY More accurate to say: The systemn of multiple choice with published Q&A is here to stay. How's that more accurate, Bill? It's always possible that the test system could change. Not very probable, but possible. But I wouldn't bet on it. 73 de Jim, N2EY |
In article , Mike Coslo
writes: Hey, maybe my dum typo was Karma! This might be the way to increase the numbers of Hams! People would demand to be retested every year or so. My karma just ran over your dogma... :-) LHA / WMD |
In article , Mike Coslo
writes: Len Over 21 wrote: In article , Mike Coslo writes: N2EY wrote: Mike Coslo wrote in message ... 1. Most everything is done that way today. Doesn't make it right! Make a question pool large enough, and there is no problem. Sure there is. I dunno, Jim. I can read a book, or I can look at a question pool. It's If the New ham radio tests are different than what Rev. Jim took, they are WRONG. :-) all the same to me. If you make questions up, you have to have a reference for them someplace. Is it in a book? fine, study the book then. Is it a question pool? Fine also. Rote memorization? Seriously if anyone rote memorizes the General and Extra tests, they are very intelligent and very stupid at the same time. And they will have a few curves thrown at them at test time. Mike, the Regulations on privatized testing always specified a MINIMUM of ten questions for every required question on a test, amateur or commercial. Well there we go! Some 800 questions (maybe more) are in the present Extra pool. I just did a BOE calculation from a QP PDF (what the world needs is more acronyms, eh?) "Back of the Envelope" calculation from a "Question Pool" "Portable Document Format" (Adobe) file. :-) I've got no problems with acronyms, Mike. :-) Has the Extra QP set increased in size? The test question pools were generated for the least amount of lawful effort. For amateur tests the VEC QPC is responsible. The amateur QP could have a hundred times the required questions and the total would defeat all the "charges" of "not right" just from the immensity of a memorization effort. [for all but the eidetic] Increasing the QP size is perfectly legal under the law. :-) No comment? It's been perfectly legal to make the QP much larger than 10 times. Since at least 1997...when I got the first access of all bound volumes of Title 47 (five total). Everyone seems to think that 10 times the required number is all that can be done... :-) Otherwise the new ham is cheating and isn't as good as the old ham. 8^) (I just recently had to listen to an old timer in person on a tirade about the worthless new hams - again.) Why did you have to listen? I find turning on my heel and walking away does wonders. Or, looking the ranter straight in the eye and saying, "You're just wrong...." (lookit how the oldest ranter here on rrap reacts to being told he's wrong - which he often is....) Well, it wasn't a case where I could or should have turned away. I supposed I could have kicked the person out, but I also needed the help he was giving on a task. Real life has a habit of modifying our behavior. Plus ut wasn't a personal attack. Most hams I know think I'm a relative old timer. But its still irritating. It's not a question of longevity with Rev. Jim. He Is Right and won't accept anything contrary to His Sacred Vision. :-) It boils down to the OFs elevating themselves far out of reality on "how good they were/are" in the way of the Sacred Olde Tests. If They did it, it is "right." If it isn't done as They did it, it is "wrong." That's the bottom line in all of these test issues. :-) Yes, truly. :-) These OFs, just like MARS, "IS ham radio!" Hi, hi. Hams - old and new - didn't change the exam procedures. Neither did ARRL, NCI, NCVEC or any other ham group. FCC did, because it saved them resources. We aren't going to a system other than multiple-choice published-Q&A-pool exams in the foreseeable future. Just not gonna happen. Just a thought here... If we were to say, go to a book oriented reference for the tests, I can assure you that it would be no better than the pool based system. Thousands and thousands of college students prove this on a daily basis, pulling all-nighters, cramming to take their tests. All the crammed knowledge is placed in shirt term memory, to quickly fade after the test is over. Mike, amateur radio is "different." It is different because the OF's tests were the "correct way" to do it. :-) Never mind that multiple-choice testing is accepted nearly everywhere else (even done in the Sacred Olde Tests) by academics and government agencies. Amateur radio is not a hobby. It is much, much more that that to the OFs. It is a "service." It has "unchangeable" rules that must be kept always and forever the same lest it become "incorrect." :-) Well, I *do* get pretty excited over it, and am having a lot of fun. That's the object of a hobby, isn't it? That's NOT what I hear from the "professional amateurs" in here... :-) To them is IS a lifestyle, a "service," a "corps," and all who do not think like them are roundly denigrated as sexual perverts or un- patriotic or "hating the entire hobby" and "always being wrong." Another poster has apparently just learned that COLEMs (the commercial test givers) "also have question pools!" Amazing. It's been that way since privatized testing began. But, it was just noticed! [anyone can look in the first bound volume of Title 47 and see the commercial license requirements except nothing about that or the three middle volumes are mentioned much in ham radio places...that has "nothing to do with hamme raddio!" yell the purists...:-) ] At Barnes and Noble the other day I saw an electrician licensing question pool. Seems what they do is important and they need to know what they are doing. "Electricians get into other people's shorts." - anon. tagline Residential electric power wiring is rather straightforward, established, and standardized. By most local government codes. It IS important since faulty wiring can lead to destruction of an expensive residence and, in apartments and condos, loss of many other units. Electricians are professionals. They aren't amateurs. They don't belong to a noble "service" to the country, etc., etc., etc. :-) The anti-public-question-pool purists don't have much of validity in their "memorization" charges...but it's about the only one they can come up with...so they must push and push on that to justify their public words. :-) BTW, that surprise I noted for anyone that *was* stupid enough to rote memorize the Extra pool is that the ABCD order of the answers is sometimes switched. That would almost certainly throw the person off balance if they didn't actually know the material. It is NOT good mnemoics practice to do memorization that way, by abstract relationships of letters to known questions. I suppose it can be done, but the effort is much, much greater to achieve any sort of accuracy in recall. On the other hand, if the method achieves the success of being given the High Prize of a ham license, then they are One Of You. :-) Such meaningless memorization is only slightly behind the blind, unswerving loyalty to the Church of St. Hiram in Newington, isn't it? The blind belief that morsemanship is the ultimate skill achievement in radio communications of this new millennium seems to be one of the dumb and dumber aspects of modern U.S. radio amateurism. Even dumber is that a morse-based NTS is somehow a "backbone" of national emergency communications...or that on-off keyed morse code "gets through when nothing else does." LHA / WMD |
"KØHB" wrote in message ink.net...
"Mike Coslo" wrote Maybe the answer is to have on on one testing, where the test administrator comes to love with you for a week, to see if you *really* have knowledge of Ham radio....hehe. I know I'll be a lot more choosy about which test sessions I agree to proctor! 73, de Hans, K0HB Dick Carrol/W0EX quit administering tests because he thought the new applicants were unworthy. |
"William" wrote Dick Carrol/W0EX quit administering tests because he thought the new applicants were unworthy. Good for him. But I'm not concerned with "worthy". If I'm going to have to "love with them for a week" as Coslo proposes, well then ...... 73, de Hans, K0HB |
Avery Hightower wrote:
Quote from FCC web, http://wireless.fcc.gov/commoperators/t2.html "Telegraphy Examinations Elements Element 1 - 16 code groups per minute. Element 2 - 20 code groups per minute. Why was it 13 for hams, and 16 for the above? And do they even give these tests anymore? 4 more months, not 4 more years! |
Hams - old and new - didn't change the exam procedures. Neither did ARRL, NCI, NCVEC or any other ham group. FCC did, because it saved them resources. We aren't going to a system other than multiple-choice published-Q&A-pool exams in the foreseeable future. Just not gonna happen. ANd then there's the question of what knowledge should be expected from applicants anyway. Does it really require more knowledge and skill to operate on 14.167 vs 14.344? |
In article , Robert Casey
writes: Hams - old and new - didn't change the exam procedures. Neither did ARRL, NCI, NCVEC or any other ham group. FCC did, because it saved them resources. We aren't going to a system other than multiple-choice published-Q&A-pool exams in the foreseeable future. Just not gonna happen. ANd then there's the question of what knowledge should be expected from applicants anyway. Does it really require more knowledge and skill to operate on 14.167 vs 14.344? More spectrum is simply the reward system in use. It was chosen in large part because it's easy to enforce. 73 de Jim, N2EY |
In article , Robert Casey
writes: Element 1 - 16 code groups per minute. Element 2 - 20 code groups per minute. Why was it 13 for hams, and 16 for the above? Professional requirements were higher than amateur requirements. Code groups are harder to copy than plain language, too. And do they even give these tests anymore? In theory they do. In practice you'd have to search high and low and set something up. 4 more months, not 4 more years! Hopefully. 73 de Jim, N2EY |
"Avery Hightower" wrote in message link.net...
Quote from FCC web, http://wireless.fcc.gov/commoperators/t2.html "Telegraphy Examinations Elements Element 1 - 16 code groups per minute. Element 2 - 20 code groups per minute. Telegraphy exams consist of both transmitting and receiving tests. Examinees must copy by ear and send by hand plain text and code groups in the international Morse code using all the letters of the alphabet, numerals 0-9, period, comma, question mark, slant mark, and prosigns AR, BT, and SK. Examinees must copy and send at the required speeds for one continuous minute without making any errors. Each test lasts approximately five minutes. The failing of any code test automatically terminates the examination. Code speeds are computed using five letters per word or code group. Punctuation symbols and numbers count as two letters each. Examinees may use their own typewriter to copy the 25 words-per-minute receiving test, but must copy tests at lower speeds by hand. Likewise, examinees may use their own semi-automatic key to send the 25 word-per-minute sending test, but must send tests at lower speeds using a hand key. The Commission will grant credit for Telegraphy Elements 1 and 2 to applicants who hold an unexpired (or within the grace period) FCC-issued Amateur Extra Class operator license." For those who just have to be tested. |
"N2EY" wrote Code groups are harder to copy than plain language, too. On the contrary, when copying for a speed test (verbatim hard copy) 5 letter coded groups are FAR easier to copy than plain text. Most Navy operators could copy coded groups at a about speed 20% higher than plain text press. 73, de Hans, K0HB |
Subject: FCC Morse testing at 16 and 20 WPM
From: "Tony Viglio" Date: 7/14/2004 10:11 AM Central Standard Time Message-id: "KØHB" wrote in message ink.net... On the contrary, when copying for a speed test (verbatim hard copy) 5 letter coded groups are FAR easier to copy than plain text. Most Navy operators could copy coded groups at a about speed 20% higher than plain text press. 73, de Hans, K0HB BULL####! Well...there we have it...Another unqualified opinon from someone who hasn't got the gonads of a two year old and can't express an opinon without profanity. Read that: CBer. Steve, K4YZ |
"N2EY" wrote in message ... In article , Robert Casey writes: Hams - old and new - didn't change the exam procedures. Neither did ARRL, NCI, NCVEC or any other ham group. FCC did, because it saved them resources. We aren't going to a system other than multiple-choice published-Q&A-pool exams in the foreseeable future. Just not gonna happen. ANd then there's the question of what knowledge should be expected from applicants anyway. Does it really require more knowledge and skill to operate on 14.167 vs 14.344? More spectrum is simply the reward system in use. It was chosen in large part because it's easy to enforce. 73 de Jim, N2EY Not only was it easy to enforce but it was selected because it was a desireable enough reward that people would put in the training to get it. Most rewards in the real world have little relationship to the work requested. You see it in the home too. Kid asks, "Dad can I borrow the car?" Parent replies, "After you mow the front & back lawn and run the edger." There is absolutely no relationship between the two activities. The kid gets a highly desired reward for work that he/she probably doesn't care to do but does it anyway to get the reward. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
N2EY wrote:
In article , Robert Casey writes: Hams - old and new - didn't change the exam procedures. Neither did ARRL, NCI, NCVEC or any other ham group. FCC did, because it saved them resources. We aren't going to a system other than multiple-choice published-Q&A-pool exams in the foreseeable future. Just not gonna happen. ANd then there's the question of what knowledge should be expected from applicants anyway. Does it really require more knowledge and skill to operate on 14.167 vs 14.344? More spectrum is simply the reward system in use. It was chosen in large part because it's easy to enforce. Another thought is that at HF frequencies, a inexperienced or poor operator can propagate their signal over the whole world. If I were to be making a training ground for amateurs, it would be using line of sight type signals |
Dee D. Flint wrote:
"N2EY" wrote in message ... In article , Robert Casey writes: Hams - old and new - didn't change the exam procedures. Neither did ARRL, NCI, NCVEC or any other ham group. FCC did, because it saved them resources. We aren't going to a system other than multiple-choice published-Q&A-pool exams in the foreseeable future. Just not gonna happen. ANd then there's the question of what knowledge should be expected from applicants anyway. Does it really require more knowledge and skill to operate on 14.167 vs 14.344? More spectrum is simply the reward system in use. It was chosen in large part because it's easy to enforce. 73 de Jim, N2EY Not only was it easy to enforce but it was selected because it was a desireable enough reward that people would put in the training to get it. Most rewards in the real world have little relationship to the work requested. You see it in the home too. Kid asks, "Dad can I borrow the car?" Parent replies, "After you mow the front & back lawn and run the edger." There is absolutely no relationship between the two activities. The kid gets a highly desired reward for work that he/she probably doesn't care to do but does it anyway to get the reward. Actually Dee, with some redneck families, mowing the lawn is how they *find* the car! Duckin' and a runnin' now! ;^) - Mike KB3EIA - |
In article , "Dee D. Flint" Mama Dee
speaking to her children writes: "N2EY" wrote in message ... In article , Robert Casey writes: Hams - old and new - didn't change the exam procedures. Neither did ARRL, NCI, NCVEC or any other ham group. FCC did, because it saved them resources. We aren't going to a system other than multiple-choice published-Q&A-pool exams in the foreseeable future. Just not gonna happen. ANd then there's the question of what knowledge should be expected from applicants anyway. Does it really require more knowledge and skill to operate on 14.167 vs 14.344? More spectrum is simply the reward system in use. It was chosen in large part because it's easy to enforce. Not only was it easy to enforce but it was selected because it was a desireable enough reward that people would put in the training to get it. Utter nonsense, Mama Dee. Spin-like rationalization. AMATEUR radio is a hobby, not a national service, not an arm of the United States Navy or the rest of the military, and not a public safety organization. Just a hobby involving radio. AMATEUR radio long ago CEASED to be a "pool of experienced morse operators" for any national need. The nation does NOT need morse operators, haven't for a long time. Most rewards in the real world have little relationship to the work requested. More spin crappola. The influential morsemen at the League managed to carve out a separate little morse playground for themselves with all sorts of fatuous phrases of "national need" and "importance of a pool of trained operators" and the FCC caved in to their demands. You see it in the home too. Kid asks, "Dad can I borrow the car?" Parent replies, "After you mow the front & back lawn and run the edger." There is absolutely no relationship between the two activities. The kid gets a highly desired reward for work that he/she probably doesn't care to do but does it anyway to get the reward. So, the League is a surrogate parent?!? I don't think so. Are all the Amateur Extras surrogate parents now? I don't think so. Dee, quit this infernal nattering about "parentage" and ham radio. Quit trying to sound off like you've got an influential pair. You aren't a radioactive au pair and this ain't the Children's Hour (even is some of the other extras act like children). Just face the reality of the matter. Morsemen got their little CW playground and should be happy. Professional communicators they ain't, even if they want, desperately, to be oh, so very pro. LHA / WMD |
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Subject: FCC Morse testing at 16 and 20 WPM
From: (Len Over 21) Date: 7/14/2004 3:53 PM Central Standard Time Message-id: In article , "Dee D. Flint" Mama Dee speaking to her children writes: SNIPPED "I am only here to civilly debate the Morse Code test issue". The lies keep on coming.....Makes ME want to run right out and become a "radio professional"....NOT. Putz. Steve, K4YZ |
In article et, "KØHB"
writes: "N2EY" wrote Code groups are harder to copy than plain language, too. On the contrary, when copying for a speed test (verbatim hard copy) 5 letter coded groups are FAR easier to copy than plain text. Well, Hans, IIRC the test standards usually worked the other way. IOW the required speed was higher for plain text than for coded groups. However, that doesn't necessarily mean it was harder. Since truly coded groups lose the advantage of variable-lenght (Hoffman?) coding, that could account for the speed difference. It does make sense that copying code groups eliminates the need for one skill: figuring out word spaces. You *know* that each group is 5 characters long. Most Navy operators could copy coded groups at a about speed 20% higher than plain text press. Well, that proves your point. Perhaps the difference in percevied difficulty comes from the fact that most nonmilitary CW ops don't get a lot of practice on code groups. So I'll revise my statement: "Whether code groups or plain language is harder to copy depends entirely on the operator. Those with extensive experience in both report that code groups are actually easier to copy." Thanks for the info. 73 de Jim, N2EY |
ANd then there's the question of what knowledge should be expected from applicants anyway. Does it really require more knowledge and skill to operate on 14.167 vs 14.344? More spectrum is simply the reward system in use. It was chosen in large part because it's easy to enforce. 73 de Jim, N2EY Not only was it easy to enforce but it was selected because it was a desireable enough reward that people would put in the training to get it. But what does the FCC get out of it? |
Not only was it easy to enforce but it was selected because it was a desireable enough reward that people would put in the training to get it. Most rewards in the real world have little relationship to the work requested. You see it in the home too. Kid asks, "Dad can I borrow the car?" Parent replies, "After you mow the front & back lawn and run the edger." There is absolutely no relationship between the two activities. The kid gets a highly desired reward for work that he/she probably doesn't care to do but does it anyway to get the reward. SOme kids and others may decide that the reward is not worth the trouble and time needed to do the required chore. If it's an option, vs having to take some stupid class in HS or college because some curriculum committee decided that it was necessary. Not graduating is not a desirable option. I had to take 3 years of Spanish class in HS, but as I don't own a landscaping company, it was a waste of time. :-) Japanese would have been a better choice, but they didn't have it. Some kids may feel that they are saddled with non-optional requirements may decide to edit out of their lives any optional requirements and forgo the ham license or similar. |
Is it true that Navy Radioman all had two little deformed shriveled up balls? Only if they were working too close to the microwave radars... ;-) |
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In article , "Dee D. Flint"
writes: "N2EY" wrote in message ... In article , Robert Casey writes: Hams - old and new - didn't change the exam procedures. Neither did ARRL, NCI, NCVEC or any other ham group. FCC did, because it saved them resources. We aren't going to a system other than multiple-choice published-Q&A-pool exams in the foreseeable future. Just not gonna happen. ANd then there's the question of what knowledge should be expected from applicants anyway. Does it really require more knowledge and skill to operate on 14.167 vs 14.344? More spectrum is simply the reward system in use. It was chosen in large part because it's easy to enforce. Not only was it easy to enforce but it was selected because it was a desireable enough reward that people would put in the training to get it. Most rewards in the real world have little relationship to the work requested. You see it in the home too. Kid asks, "Dad can I borrow the car?" Parent replies, "After you mow the front & back lawn and run the edger." There is absolutely no relationship between the two activities. Actually, there is a relationship - or connection might be a better word. You're right that driving a car doesn't require lawn-mowing skills or accomplishments. But in the case cited above, Kid is part of the family. In order to use the family's resources (the car, which Parents bought and paid for) Kid has to contribute something - in the cited case, the lawn care. The relationship between the car use and the lawn care is one of responsibility and being part of a group. Have you ever seen a family where the kids are given everything they want but not required to contribute anything? Ever see what sort of adults those kids become? 73 de Jim, N2EY The kid gets a highly desired reward for work that he/she probably doesn't care to do but does it anyway to get the reward. |
In article , Robert Casey
writes: ANd then there's the question of what knowledge should be expected from applicants anyway. Does it really require more knowledge and skill to operate on 14.167 vs 14.344? More spectrum is simply the reward system in use. It was chosen in large part because it's easy to enforce. Not only was it easy to enforce but it was selected because it was a desireable enough reward that people would put in the training to get it. But what does the FCC get out of it? The whole concept of a license system with multiple levels of knowledge and privileges. 73 de Jim, N2EY |
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